Guild Wars 2

Shaogin.2679:

It wouldn’t matter if conditions dealt less damage over longer periods of time. So long as people die to condition damage, they will come here and complain about it, usually with 0 understanding of what they are even talking about.

These people don’t want condition damage to be balanced, they want to be able to ignore conditions altogether as some secondary damage source that merely “supplements” power damage.

i call it having a ‘WoW mentality’. it’s really boring to read. its just scrubs who want the game design to match other mmos, just so they can die less.

i think all damage is too high. i miss the times when 50k hp, knights amulet & things like that were actually frustrating to fight. i had a valk build (back when it was power, healing, toughness, & cirt dmg) for my warrior back when shouts were all the rage. that thing took so little dmg. could carry so hard. i miss pre trait revamp gameplay.

if there was a private server with that meta on it, with a community balance patch i would plya the heck out of it. come to think of it, a lot of games like supreme commander & DoW II are now balanced by their communities. & are in a much better way balance wise than they ever were when devs managed them. seriously a private server with only pvp, no other gammodes that’s balanced by a select group from community would be amazing.
tbh might be kinda great when this game is properly dead.
because i doubt anet is a chill as the guys from BDO & would allow a private server to stay up.

mrauls.6519:

Im praying the new POF elite specs will cause ventari rev to vanish

it will eat dirt vs scourge

I’ve been having a think. centaur stance is really energy intensive, and regular thief kills rev if he’s in dragon stance.

so I figure since the main issue with rev is the knock back, thief should beat bunk rev 1v1. it’s got super high damage input with dp, vault spam or either dd or sd condi. and it has enough evades to dodge all cc. the warm up for the knock back is super obvious. so that’s easy to dodge.
and bunk revs damage is so pitiful thief can actually tank some of it.

like that’s just theory, I don’t play thief myself. but it seems like it should counter bunk rev pretty dang hard.

someone should give it a go. sind or someone actually good.

personally, my vipers warrior eats it alive.

yeah, but those games with diminishing returns on cc don’t have stunbreaks, and rarely have a stability equivalent.

bring more stunbreaks and learn tells dude. you can be very anti cc in build if you want. it’s up 2 u what you build for.
also cc lockdown into burst is so common in PvP games. it’s nearly always the best way to play, especially when there are evades and ability telegraphs.
hence why classes like warrior will overload on cc, to counter their obvious tells and static skills like 100b. like bulls charge is the reason 100b has been a thing since launch. this game is built around cc it’s important to the playstyles of a lot of the classes.

yeah, being stunlocked is frustrating- so bring more stability, blinds, blocks, evades etc- and learn cc tells so you can dodge them. it’s very much a problem you can solve.

like, I play my DH with a single stunbreak, f3 (no traited trap either) and I do fine. so it’s very doable.

most of the build isn’t even an issue. CD on the elite is just too short. everything else is fine.

Captain Obvious.6951:

choovanski.5462:

Is it OK for someone to completely kill another player, by doing nothing other than pressing 3 and healing themselves?

:P

Seeing as the other player has a chance to defend themselves, by blocking, dodging and generally has a chance to counter the attacks, then yes it is OK.

And you wouldn’t answer my question cause you know the answer. When the only counter to retaliation is to ‘run away’ then you know it’s BS.

I already told you how to counter it earlier, but you’ve just ignored it. sorry that you don’t want to complicate your playstyle with reactive gameplay. guess killing yourself has a weird appeal to it. I never knew. beauty in simplicity maybe?

so yeah, continue to spam 3 and kill yourself. I honestly don’t mind. it’s no skin off my nose. it’s just another player using a terrible build playing terribly hitting downstate. no big deal.

but dude. I’m not sure how anyone is supposed to believe applying retaliation requires less skill than spamming 3. they are both deeply one dimensional. so it’s comical to see you complain about a boon ruining your brain-dead gameplay as being no skill. you’re spamming 3 while not playing attention to your health or their boon bar, idk how much skill that takes but I doubt it’s much at all.

Is it OK for someone to completely kill another player, by doing nothing other than pressing 3 and healing themselves?

:P

ok OP I’m going to break it to you. I’m gonna tell it to you straight.

use sigil of absorption w headshot and L2P

or just like, continue to run this one trick pony gimmick build and spam 3 killing yourself and burst into tears because pressing 3 is all you know and how could it be that there could be ever more to to gameplay than pressing 3. it’s blasphemy. how can you not win everything just by pressing 3.

Kuya.6495:

choovanski.5462:

@Kuya

if anet is actually making is so one specialisation is for pve, and the other is for pvp. and are doing this by nerfing the ‘pve specs’ so much that they are not viable in PvP…..

then oh my gosh. if they are consciously doing that. I don’t know what to say. well, apart from that it’s the dumbest decision on earth.
why not have both specialisations viable in PvP and you know, have build diversity? like what is bad about that. why introduce more elite specs then make it so half of the specs only work in one gamemode. it’s such a dumb idea.

like, why not go the engineer route for all classes. both Holo and Scrapper are gonna be viable, and two really different choices.
why you wouldn’t want this for all classes is 100% beyond me. 1 spec for PvP and one for PvE, god what a dumb decision, I honestly hope that’s not the goal here.

---

like, as far as beserker goes. removing the primal burst CD nerf, and making it so going into beserk mode counts as a t3 burst would bring it back. it would be good again. it’s not super hard to creatively un-kitten it’s sustain, which is what was nerfed mostly.

Engineer? Are we talking about the same class here? Engineers in pve go core for raiding. Scrapper is only meta in pvp.

Furthermore, maybe you’re right. Making one elite specialize in pvp and another pve is not build diversity in pvp or pve. It is build diversity on the game in general if two elite specs don’t compete for the same spot in the same game mode though. And if it’s between that and having elites being better than the previous ones rather than offering new ways to play a class, than i prefer the former.

I think the problem with the kind of people who post on this forum is a problem of expectations. You expected anet to balance elite specs a certain way and get outraged when they don’t meet your expectations. But you never seem to question whether your expectations are realistic or ultimately desireable in the long term. I think we should all practice more self criticism and study whether our desires and expectations are really practical and whether they match the designer’s vision for what an elite spec should be.

Instead though, on this forum in particular, we seem to act like we’re ordering at McDonald’s.

i have no idea what anything goes for pve, & honestly couldn’t care less.

but, maybe it is restrictive. pve meta has always been a weird dps support meta so i get that optimisation is gonna be strict. maybe this can be fixed, but i dont care.

when i mentioned engineer, i was meaning in pvp. both holo & scrapper are going to be viable in different roles. engineer is going to have two really different builds to play. dope. how cool.
im guessing ele, ranger & guardian are going to be the same. both seem to offer really different things, & with the right balance patch(lol i know) both could have meta builds.

but with warrior, it just had two patches of nerfs that trashed beserker. it lost so much sustain, & had its offensive power nerfed too. its pretty bad now.
if it wasn’t nerfed then we could have had a damage focused spec, & a sustain/boon hate spec. but we just get get one viable spec because of some poorly thought out balance changes.

so no, i dont think anet has a 1 spec per gamemode philosophy. because its not reflected in all of the elite specs. & i don’t even think it’s reflected in warrior’s. pre-nerf warrior was meta, it had tournament play on both power &. condi builds, both running beserker. it’s not bad right now because the spec is terribly designed or anything, it just had two patches of heavy nerfs. like. its not a design thing, it’s just too many nerfs.

current spellbreaker & pre-nerf beserker both are strong viable choices for pvp. both offer different playstyles, & twists on warriors role. sure they are not night & day like druid & soulbeast, but they are two very distinct styles of warrior. so like i cant see how it’s unrealistic to be a bit miffed that a spec that would have been viable two patches ago is now worse than the expansion spec.

so like. i don’t see why having both specs viable for pvp should be such a terrible thing to ask for. heck they are doing it with at least half of the classes anyhow. a group that would include pre-nerf beserker.

maybe it’s time to evolve your gameplay beyond pressing 3?

or don’t, because this is seriously funny

Solstace.2514:

It is a little telling that warrior is now a class where the elite specialization is considerably worse than the core builds. Berserker is incredibly underpowered compared to the other elite builds for other classes. It did need an adjustment:nerf and got one. At that point the build was no longer great but decent. Inexplicably though anet nerfed it again and now it’s close to unplayable against decent competition.

hence the salitness, the second nerf was completely out of the blue & unnecessary

especially as warrior had only been meta for a very short time

===

idk why the necros are qqing. they have been a staple of the meta for ages. sure they are no ele or thief, but they are up there with mesmer when it comes to time spent in meta.

but like dude. having a class cry off is so silly. thief & ele are the meta staples, the rest of the classes go in & out of fashion. some more than others. but idk what having a cry off about it achieves.

@Kuya

if anet is actually making is so one specialisation is for pve, and the other is for pvp. and are doing this by nerfing the ‘pve specs’ so much that they are not viable in PvP…..

then oh my gosh. if they are consciously doing that. I don’t know what to say. well, apart from that it’s the dumbest decision on earth.
why not have both specialisations viable in PvP and you know, have build diversity? like what is bad about that. why introduce more elite specs then make it so half of the specs only work in one gamemode. it’s such a dumb idea.

like, why not go the engineer route for all classes. both Holo and Scrapper are gonna be viable, and two really different choices.
why you wouldn’t want this for all classes is 100% beyond me. 1 spec for PvP and one for PvE, god what a dumb decision, I honestly hope that’s not the goal here.

like, as far as beserker goes. removing the primal burst CD nerf, and making it so going into beserk mode counts as a t3 burst would bring it back. it would be good again. it’s not super hard to creatively un-kitten it’s sustain, which is what was nerfed mostly.

just like to let y’all know the general sentiment in the warrior forums without over reacting.

we, that is warriors, spent a long while out of meta. so bad the class was not worth playing.
but then we got the AH buff. we were allowed a brief period of being meta after that. but then, we were slapped out of meta by the nerfbat, then nerfed again just for good measure. now our elite spec is debatably worse than core.

yeah, so our class blows and we feel shafted.
we don’t all think it’s a big conspiracy theory tho. some of us just think anet’s balance team is soo bad they should be called the imbalance team.

but yes mesmers, at least our special for the new expac is not a joke. it’s our current spec that’s been nerfed to joke level. so we are literally feeling the pain you are yet to feel. and let me tell you, it feels bad man.

#BASELINEFASTHANDS2017
#BESERKINGCOUNTSAST3BURST2017

Choppy.4183:

TheBravery.9615:

Entering berserk mode should count as using a tier 3 burst skill, and berserk mode bursts should have shorter cooldowns if primal bursts remain tier 1 bursts.

How short? I’d think undoing the change to Smash Brawler would be enough, especially since it can be combined with the reduction minor from Discipline.

basically both of these would solve it tbh

@Silv is right. when i queue up on my DH with my pal on Druid we just laugh at condis. we both have self clears, & we can clear each other’s condis & heal each other too.
like what can condi builds do vs a DH + Druid duo. what is actually the plan? we both have a ton of burst power damage & cc, so we can lock down & insta kill anything we like.

condis shine in 1v1 fights, but fall off in teamfights & 2v2s.
hence why the condi builds that are good (in actual teams not in solo queue headless chicken clown fiesta) fall into two categories: dualist, or ‘my class has a ton of utility but my power builds sucks so i guess i’ve got to play condi’.
our two dualists in recent meta have been s/d carrion thief (seen this in tournaments, & its p good) & condi warrior (has been practically nerfed out of meta now lol). both are good at 1v1 against a lot of classes, but really fall off in team fights where the tempest is in action.
mesmer & necromancer both have excellent utility that makes them high value picks, but their power builds just aren’t that good- so they have to play condi. for necro sometimes power is good, but since their main value is boonrip it synergises better with a hybrid stat amulet(for RS cleave) & a condi focused build. power mesmer is too easily farmed to be a good pick, but portal & moa are must haves, so the only choice is condi.

====

sure, condi can be strong in a solo que clown fiesta, even more so in low ranks where players dont know how to support each other. but dude, you cant balance a 5v5 team game around players who dont play as a team. like, thats just dumb dude. because if players do play as a team they will then become OP af because they will break balance.

also LOL at the PoF fear mongering. sure scourge did a lot of condi damage, holosmith is just as bonkers & its a power spec. the rest of the new ‘classes’ are either power, or plain old terrible. i guess you can complain about that firebrand mantra build, but thats just putting your hand up & yelling “im bad at the game”.

otto.5684:

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

Thank you for explaining the basics of the game. I learned these six month after I played the game. I do not care how many cleanses you have, if I am playing condi Rev with support and cover, I will just spam the point with AOE condi until I burn you down. There is no counter. This is not condi Rev exclusive either.

condi rev is very weak against cc. so any warrior who can actually play will just be able to dumpster you while laughing at your condis.

Phineas Poe.3018:

choovanski.5462:

why would a game company ban popular streamers who make them money? especially with the expansion coming. it’s just a poor move. these people make anet money, & anet quite blatantly doesn’t care about the competitive pvp scene at all- so like why would they actually ban the new accounts they buy?

The same reason the “big four” sports strip athletes of any earned titles and/or accolades and ban them from future participation in any affiliated leagues if they’re guilty of any wrongdoing: preserving the integrity of the sport.

Granted, Guild Wars 2 isn’t baseball, and I don’t expect ArenaNet to hold their players accountable to the degree the MLB does theirs, but you have to admit it leaves a pretty bad taste in one’s mouths seeing a bunch of players that were intentionally dishonored on their main accounts winning this month’s monthly tournament and having Chris turn around and say there’s nothing wrong with that. The Steroid Era did a serious number on the popularity of baseball, but the outcry would have been far greater if they turned around and told McGuire he could keep playing under a pseudonym. (And there’s still a very large contingent of baseball fans that dislike the fact that he’s on a team’s payroll as a bench coach.)

I am not going to tell ArenaNet how to manage their own game mode, but I will say that their wishy-washy handling of this situation will negatively impact the game’s overall integrity and health—at least as it pertains to PvP.

somehow i feel like you didn’t read the rest of my posts, or perhaps you didn’t understand them.

the fact you choose to compare this games pvp to MLB of all things shows a fatal miss-understanding. so perhaps you didn’t understand my posts either.

i’ll be blunt. the devs killed the competitive scene months ago. maybe you could have made the MLB comparison then, but not now. a more apt comparison would be a substitute teacher refereeing a soccer game in a PE class. that’s the level of quality & integrity gw2 pvp has right now.

so. have a think, anet cancelled Esports & does nothing about afking, exploiting & the bots in silver. do you honestly think they care about a game mode they are euthanising?

look at their treatment of this situation. look at the dev post that ignores the discussion & confirms that the statues are working. does it seem like the integrity of this game mode is something they care about?

have a think. look at the situation that arena net have created. think about what that says about them. then ask yourself if they think a competitive pvp scene is something they care about. then ask if they would care if popular streamers promoted their new expansion.

have a think about it. use your head. what do the facts tell you, what can you infer?

===

@Chaith
shout out for keeping it real. tell em

@choovanski
why did you even bother replying to Phineas Poe’s post? you’ve already said everything you said here in the post he only quoted part of. i don’t think saying the same thing twice is going to be impactful, i mean he thinks anet treat pvp like MLB. he’s living in an alternate reality.
what you should really be doing is finding out if this alternate reality where anet cares about pvp like the MLB association care about baseball is real. & if it is, you should try & see if you can transfer your account to it. i’m sure the queue isn’t filled with exploitation & bots like the one we have here, because you know- these devs really care. probably still have ESL there too, because it’s like MLB after all lol.
oh man, they probably have the terrain bugs fixed & do timely balance updates with changes that make sense. wow bet S/F ele is viable there too. dang man gotta get me to this new earth. grass gon be greener.

a lot of us have literally been asking for this for years. it’s an integral part of the warrior play style, & most of the weapons have been designed around it. should have become baseline when shatter on mesmer became baseline too

still, posting about it has been about as effective as going to the park & eating handfuls of grass

MiGFiD.1760:

I like that they’ve buffed core skills. Now, I can play power warrior without having to keep berserker as a necessary part. I play warrior mainly, and I do dodge and pay attention to what is going on. But, when there’s a flurry of god knows what in the center, I get cc’d to smitherines. If this game was a 1 vs 1 heavy pvp style, then no. There aren’t that many ccs and cd isn’t too much of a problem.

I wanted to invest time in this game, but now I don’t find that I like: 1. The community, and 2. The “your class can be anything you want”

I like build diversity, but I don’t like it when they take out what it means to be your chosen class. Whatever Anet chose the class to be like.

as someone who has been playing warrior since beta, i’m actually deeply unhappy with it’s current state in pvp, it’s in a bad place.
the reason being beserker was nerfed so heavily over the last two patches it’s become debatably worse than core warrior.

a lot of people are happy about this because it means they can play core again. this is actually only going to be the case until PoF is out, then it will be spellbreaker or go home. warrior will not have a choice between beserker & spellbreaker, like the other classes will (engineer etc). so i hope you bought PoF lol, because anet want dat ££.

classes are still playing the same roles they were at HoT release for the most part. some things are just a bit more lacklustre. warrior has retained it’s flavour i feel, i mean it’s still playing as a bulls charge 100b machine. support warrior & bruiser warrior have both been nerfed out of existence though, so its only glass GS we really have left.

i still manage to pull off some stuff on beserker, playing either gunflame (rifle/GS, actually a really nice build for team fights as you can avoid the point at aoes) or vipers hammer. but the sustain is 1/3 of what it was pre nerfs, & the cc animation nerfs have made it easy to outplay. it’s very disappointing. beserker was a nice change after literally years on core. i’m still liking the primal busts & headbutt tho, so ill stick w it myself.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAS5enEdAldgdhAWhAElilgADpFUDSBGHgSYA4d5Wd3uA-TZx+gAxPAAqrAAQZg2DCQ4+DAA
> that’s vipers hammer if you’re keen to play something that will suprise most players. it’s an absolute giggle. you can swap to carrion if you want more health, but viper gives you the crits. bulls charge can be exchanged for stomp too.
> hammer f1, core or beserker is bonkers in teamfights. hits like a truck & applies a ton of condis.
> on interrupt skullgrinder applies: 8 stacks of confusion, 5 stacks of bleeding, blind, cripple, and weakness. it’s the most punishing skill in the whole build.
> you will own bunker revs. the stab on beserker & stun breaking counters the kb, & your condi & cc output will drain their energy & force the glint swap, or just insta kill them.

the community is pretty shoddy right now. there are some decent nice players still kicking around, but there is no denying this is a dying scene. i don’t really have any solutions for that… wish i did. still, if you end up having a match with a player you like whisper the dude & have a chat. they could be a potential duo partner & duelling buddy. same goes for a player who wrecks you.

the “your class can be anything you want” is really only true for open world pve, because it’s so brain dead anything can do it. pvp, wvw & raids are all pretty strict with meta & roles, w wvw roaming being the most creative. it’s a tag line anet doesn’t use much anymore, because it’s not really true.

so yeah, good luck dude. have fun. give that hammer build a go. it’s a bit awkward at first, but once you get the interrupts & flow down it’s very powerful.

lastly. go into settings, turn on effect LOD & turn off post processing. set shaders to low or medium. this is going to make it a hell of a lot easier to see what the heck is going on in a teamfight.

Silv is right.

i would say though the best way to learn is to hop into a private arena with a few good players & fight each other, & give feedback. 1v1s are incredibly important in mechanical play, & are the best practice for learning how to deal with CC & condi.

back when i used to coach people on pvp in my old guild this is the method we used. i’ve turned free kills into average players, & seen massive improvements. its how i learnt to deal with clone death mesmer back when that existed. took almost a week of 1v1s with my pal, but i went from thinking it was OP & impossible to fight to having a fair chance against him (he is an incredibly good mesmer, so fair chance is all i can hope for lol).

my favourite method is to get the the person who’s learning to fight good players on builds/classes they have an issue fighting while you spectate them. this allows you to see all of the moves both players make & you can give really effective feedback after each 1v1.

honestly i would recommend anyone who wants to get good to fight some more experienced players to 1v1 with a chat about it on discord. it’s really the best way to improve mechanical skill, which i would argue should be focused on before you start really worrying about rotation theory.

if you can’t manage that quite yet, i would recommend watching these: https://youtu.be/pEV96odAFcg
Jebro, & Nick both give excellent commentary on these 1v1s. there are a lot of interesting matchups & plays displayed. there’s a lot to learn.

=====

but yeah, ultimately it’s up to you if you want to learn this game. it’s very understandable considering its current health if you don’t want to. but dude, your balance suggestions are coming from a very inexperienced perspective. they are not going to get a lot of respect.

personally i’ve chosen to play the occasional game of Gunflame, or Xzibit Guardian & go with BDO as my main game. i have a lot more fun there, & the devs rock (imo lol ofc its imo). i’m very excited to hunt gaint sea monsters from the deck of a flying airship while looking deeply swaggy.

imo gw2 is not worth getting into as a new player currently. pvp is falling apart, & i doubt PoF will cause any meaningful change.

the two big contributers to this issue is HoT power creep, and the forum’s stupid obsession with having a burst meta.

sure most of the onus is on anet, for their frankly embarrassing attempts at balancing this game. but the communities widespread hate of bunker builds, and anything that doesn’t die super fast has not helped at all.

though, I will add that there is always supposed to be more CC and condi than there are stunbreaks and cleanses. else there is no reason to have them in the game, as they would be useless.

so yes, some level of L2P is warranted. you could have a much better time if you upskilled. but there is the question ‘is it worth it to L2P in a dying game with frankly embarrassing balance?’, honestly the answer is for you to decide.

megilandil.7506:

choovanski.5462:

to be cynical- do y’all want these players banned for any reason but to prove gw2 pvp is not a joke?

if that’s the reason, it’s not a good one. because it wont work.

===

if that line didn’t work with you, consider this:
why would a game company ban popular streamers who make them money? especially with the expansion coming. it’s just a poor move. these people make anet money, & anet quite blatantly doesn’t care about the competitive pvp scene at all- so like why would they actually ban the new accounts they buy?

because a few forum personalities are outraged?
good joke.

because they deeply care about pvp being seen as competitive in the wider community?
obviously not. exploiting & afking are still rampant & unpunished, & anet euthanised their own competitive scene.

so, i just can’t see a compelling reason for anet to ban these new accounts. i mean they want toker & co streaming, advertising their game & shilling PoF, & that can’t happen if he’s perma banned from pvp on all accounts. the free advertising from streamers is so much more valuable than the opinions of a few forum personalities. heck, they can even delete this thread & further ones like it if they want.

no , games near death is anounced when they are full of cheaters/ boots and game admins do nothing againts, if peoples states that this is a game where cheating have no penalty game will be dead, and if cheaters are “famous” streamers they will be dead before…

dude. what does that mess of words even mean?

are you trying to say a game is nearing death when its full of bots & exploiting/cheating, & the devs do nothing to punish them?

because dude, exploiting via afk farming & match manipulation is rampant, & there are quite a few bots in silver tier. anet does little to nothing to punish/discourage this behaviour.

so if ‘bots + cheating + dev apathy = dying game’ then dude, gw2 pvp is a dying game. which i thought was common knowledge. i’ve stopped recommending this game to anyone i know, the pvp is an utter joke- it’s not worth overcoming the steep initial learning curve to have to play such a terribly managed pvp gamemode. i’m not going to be buying PoF, that last nerf to warrior was the nail in the coffin for me. i’m not going to invest in this companies continued incompetence. i’d much rather buy a skin in BDO, & get excited about the prospect of my guild having a airships to accompany our navy.

still, streamers like Nos & Toker still get a ton of views (in the realm of gw2 twitch, not overall lol) regardless of the cheating they have done. i certainly haven’t stopped watching Nos myself.

well, like dude. vent rev is pretty easy to take out. like the kb is annoying (there is a 1sec delay & a big animation tho, so very very dodge-able), but if you have condi, cc, range or some combination thereof it’s basic. pressure to force energy burn & glint swap, negate glint heal, kill them.

condi thief…. it’s just got too much damage baked into evade frames & instant cast teleports. it’s very badly designed. the timing you need to actually kill them take significantly higher skill than the build takes to play. like, yeah headbutt after they have burnt shadowstep is a very good move, but it’s very hard to land if the thief is halfway competent. sure some condi & AOE spam builds can do quite well, but that’s about it.

i don’t have an issue w the idea of a thief doing condis. but this build is problematic from a design standpoint. it’s not like DH, which is easy to play but easy to kill once you reach a certain skill level (dodge traps + unblockable = GG). s/d carrion is easy to play, but actually requires high technical skill or good luck to have a chance at beating them. easy builds need to have their simplicity of use reflect in both their easy to play & play against, which is why DH works & s/d carrion is an issue.

they are able to teleport in w no warning, deliver a condi spike while evading, & then teleport out, only to do it again. the window to counterattack is tiny, & that is if you get one at all. if the thief is decent & can make use of terrain the fight just becomes more of a nightmare.

TLDR:
vent rev, like really you guys?
condi thief, putting all damage in evade frames & instant cast teleports is terrible design.

Shaogin.2679:

choovanski.5462:

Apolo.5942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

dw, just play deadeye & do 35k with one skill

#arenanetmastersofbalance

If you die to a Deadeye in sPvP, you deserved it.

i would argue you deserve all your deaths lol. but you must agree, if deadeye catches you without a few cooldowns its GG (or so it seems after watching caed play it).

to be cynical- do y’all want these players banned for any reason but to prove gw2 pvp is not a joke?

if that’s the reason, it’s not a good one. because it wont work.

===

if that line didn’t work with you, consider this:
why would a game company ban popular streamers who make them money? especially with the expansion coming. it’s just a poor move. these people make anet money, & anet quite blatantly doesn’t care about the competitive pvp scene at all- so like why would they actually ban the new accounts they buy?

because a few forum personalities are outraged?
good joke.

because they deeply care about pvp being seen as competitive in the wider community?
obviously not. exploiting & afking are still rampant & unpunished, & anet euthanised their own competitive scene.

so, i just can’t see a compelling reason for anet to ban these new accounts. i mean they want toker & co streaming, advertising their game & shilling PoF, & that can’t happen if he’s perma banned from pvp on all accounts. the free advertising from streamers is so much more valuable than the opinions of a few forum personalities. heck, they can even delete this thread & further ones like it if they want.

Apolo.5942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

dw, just play deadeye & do 35k with one skill

#arenanetmastersofbalance

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Dude… WoW mindset? You played this exact same game before the condition stacking buff didn’t you? When burns only did 700 at most and bleeds 100 at most? Only ever stacking duration, not intensifying like we have now with 12k a tick on 1 condition.

(not disagreeing with the rest)

the main goal of the condition stacking buff was to solve the issue of overriding conditions. so multiple condi players can effectively focus one target without overriding each others damage.

condi damage has always been able to kill. why else would builds like condi p/s engi, & the countless wvw condi builds have existed?

yes, condi damage has increased. yes it can be argued it’s too much. but you can’t argue that in a vacuum. power damage has seen just as much of a spike. both damage types are far too high imo.

its the ‘WoW mentality’ that has players tunnel visioning on condi damage. they qq about burn stacks & not 10k crits (we have 35k crits coming w PoF lol). it’s a joke really. i am unable to think of them as anything but scrubs.

I know condi damage has always been able to kill but thats not the context of our conversation is it?

Conditions have been overly tuned compared to the old DOT status / supplement damage role from THIS game, not WoW. (unless it’s a saying?)

I don’t agree that condis were ever a supplementary damage type in gw2. we have gear with only condi stats, and pure condi weapons. furthermore builds like p/s engineer have historically been very strong 1v1 builds, and that’s a condi only build. it literally kills w only condi.
WvW has always had condi builds in roaming too. condi as your primary damage type for 1v1 has always been a viable choice (class depending), it just used to be terrible for focused damage from multiple people in one target.

so, while I do agree that condis can be seen as overtuned- I don’t think they’ve been overtuned from a supplementary role. I think condi has always been a primary damage type, and just like power damage has been blow out of proportion with all the power creep.

it’s yeah. burns are more scary now, but dang dude all the damage numbers are bigger now. it’s all more scary. it’s all borked power creep.

but still, a lot of defensive skills have been power creeped too. we have a lot more evades and condi clear than we did at launch. so while damage has ramped up, we have got more tools to avoid the damage. some classes, like warrior or necromancer can just build to be practically immune to condi damage. so beating condi builds is still very very doable, which should be self evident by the fact most of the strong builds are power builds. PoF further encourages power builds, with Holosmith SpellBreaker and the like (only scourge is condi and usable so far), oh and those 30k+ crits from dead eye. every cool.

so it’s like yeah, having a 2k burn tick sucks. but so does getting hit for 12k with one skill, then 6k with another, then 4k with the next. dying blows. but you can easily match, or even outperform condi bursts with bursts from power builds. I mean, regardless of condi or power damage people get sent into the ground in less than 5 seconds these days.

TLDR: condi has always been a primary damage type, and this whole game is a power creeped mess

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Dude… WoW mindset? You played this exact same game before the condition stacking buff didn’t you? When burns only did 700 at most and bleeds 100 at most? Only ever stacking duration, not intensifying like we have now with 12k a tick on 1 condition.

(not disagreeing with the rest)

the main goal of the condition stacking buff was to solve the issue of overriding conditions. so multiple condi players can effectively focus one target without overriding each others damage.

condi damage has always been able to kill. why else would builds like condi p/s engi, & the countless wvw condi builds have existed?

yes, condi damage has increased. yes it can be argued it’s too much. but you can’t argue that in a vacuum. power damage has seen just as much of a spike. both damage types are far too high imo.

its the ‘WoW mentality’ that has players tunnel visioning on condi damage. they qq about burn stacks & not 10k crits (we have 35k crits coming w PoF lol). it’s a joke really. i am unable to think of them as anything but scrubs.

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Aktium.9506:

Crackers.9628:

I literally took 120k condi damage on my warrior one time. This is 6x my hp bar. All in condi damage

So what you’re saying is that the poor condi player basically had to kill you six times before you actually died?

no he never dies to condi remember lol

@everyone

if you think that you can accurately determine personal skill w solo queue, you can’t. definitely not in the current gw2 ranked queue. there is too much exploiting & afking for that. low pop doesn’t help either. furthermore w each player only being 1/5 of the team, & low pop causing a wide skill disparity, the accuracy only gets worse.

i can win a game because Chaith carried me. no reflection on my gunflame spam at all.
Chaith can lose his next game due to a salty necro who afks after he dies in the opening midfight.
that salty necro can win his next game because a player on his side payed 50g for a member of the opposing team to throw.

see. look at these examples. what do these have to do w personal skill at all? like honestly, it’s hardly even a factor in these games.

a team of 5 fixes: afks, shoddy team composition, frustrating skill disparities, & discourages match manipulation. it also improves rotational skill, teamwork, & fosters positive social bonds.

sure, you can still get ‘carried by your team’ but that happens in solo queue too.

like humour me.
say i grab a pal of mine, Steve. he’s a really meh player. he likes bunker druid & fluctuates between silver & gold. not a great.
now say he gets teamed up w Chaith. Chaith is a great player, & if you’ve seen his streams you know he can carry hard. lets say he does. he wins 1v2s, rotates like a god, & shoves his function gyro so hard down the enemies throat it comes out the other side.
they win the game.

awesome. you still with me? this is when it gets interesting.
see, we can all agree that this win is a reflection of Chaith’s skill, he carried he deserves it. but what about Steve, he didn’t carry, so does he deserve the win? is this a reflection of his skill?

you, pro solo queue players, please answer?

===

to rebut preemptively:
i am aware that there is another argument. that in solo queue Steve can’t make sure he’s with Chaith, he can’t ensure a carry. but in team queue he would be able to always play w Chaith. ergo solo queue is better.

to reply:
we must take into account a few things. firstly bad matchmaking & afks. these both cause you to ‘unjustly’ lose rating. & going off the rebuttal, if you are carried then you don’t deserve the win, & it’s an unjust inflation.
take into account skill disparity, which means a lot of players will carry or be the weak link that throws the game. consider also how common afk players are.
this means, being carried, weak links, & afk players make up a sizeable amount of a lot of players games. so by our previous logic a large portion of solo queue games don’t actually reflect personal skill, more your luck of the draw w teams.

so with a lot of games invalid for the purpose of determining skill solo queue isn’t looking too great.

two points in favour of team queue as far as skill representation goes:
lets suppose Chaith & Steve are on a team. one could say Chaith is carrying Steve, just as one could say Chaith is playing with a handicap. there are good arguments for both. but i would ask, seeing as carrying weak links happen in solo queue too, are these actually negative points for team queue, or are they just features of a 5v5 team game? i would think the latter.
now, the second & important point. Steve is going to get better. he is going to improve. why? well, because he’s playing a helpful high skill player, Chaith. they will talk in discord. in there they will discuss builds, plan rotations, & co-ordinate spikes & resses. Steve is going to learn a lot. he is going to improve at a much faster rate than he would in solo queue. soon Steve will be weaving around on his s/d bunker looking all frosty. he’s gonna become less of a liability to the team. Chaith will have to carry him less & less.

so, you can see due to the faster pace of improvement in a team queue. the issue of carrying, & weak links is less pronounced. it actually creates a more skilled community & all but eliminates afk. seems ah, pretty a ok to me.

i feel the community just needs to be a little less lazy for 5v5 queue to work. only time can tell if that can be done. but to all those crying about their teams, dude team queue fixes that. don’t be such a child. take control.

====

if anyone answers me rebutting with a post about mixed queues you are a moron & i will bite your head off. i haven’t mentioned them once in my arguments. don’t pull that kitten.

lighter.2708:

Bezerker.2379:

lighter.2708:

GhandiBot.6257:

Only thing I can think of is the aoe boon strips and reveals for pvp. Other than that, a vanilla power warrior who goes into Strength, Defence and Discipline with Might Makes Right is better. Puts out a lot more pressure than Spellbreaker.

why take spell breaker when you have scourge with sand sade aoes and elite converts every boon to condition

Because spellbreaker with revenge counter kittens scourge up?

Ditch offhand dagger and run shield. run disc, str, spellbreaker. I tried running it as pure defense, and it’s terrible with SB. need to play an active play style.

And? still not worth the DPS slot of a team comp, the only role a warrior has a chance to compete in a team comp is tanky on point brawler/disrupt/support, but there’s scrapper, tempest lol

this is the crux of the issue. currently spellbreaker is just a worse DPS pick than holosmith. no argument at all.

so it’s got to have a niche. that should be boon hate. but ah, firebrand is a bit to bad right now. if it was meta support then spellbreaker would counter it, & then be a useful pick.

as it stands, im thinkin: Tempest, DD, Chrono, Scourge, Holosmith
maybe substitute chrono for scrapper or druid, but i think you’ll want the moa. but yeah, currently holosmith is just a far better power build than spellbreaker.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJATRn8cCVdiVDBedC8DhlEiSe5n+s/aZDgEIb/6vAE-TpRHQBL8BAAgDBwAvAAZrMQ62fAgHBAA

here i give you, the Xzibit Guardian because i heard you like to spin. now you can spin to win while you spin to win. spinception.

seriously tho. GS is for AoE cleave that’s all. use the boon rip & pull when a downed happens. get those interrupts. then spin while you spin. spin away. the cleave is insane. it’s my go to build for DH. strong 1v1, strong teamfight. good build. thumbs up.

for the rest of the game, you know how it goes. use LB most of the time, GS for occasional mobility. both of your pulls work really well w the traps, which i should mention fill you full of might.
as far as variations go, swap Virtuous Solace for more condi clear if you feel you need it. i use both traits, but dang that bubble gives people a surprise. can be very funny. also, can totally push people out of your traps. so like, be careful dude.

Crackers.9628:

2 things:

I never said condi kills me.
I never said I play a warrior in pvp apart from those few test games.

“Ergo” your entire post is irrelevant.

Condition damage in this game is way out of line and people know it, so it doesn’t come as a surprise that all these condi cheesers come crawling out of their corners desperately trying to defend it.

ah, young spring onion. you provide a most perplexing post, with a nice little insult for spice. i like that. very cheeky.

young child. if condi does not kill you, then why are you writing a QQ post about condi damage. seems perplexing doesn’t it?
even more so when we see you calling condi damage ‘way out of line’. what a strange thing to call a damage type that isn’t killing you. if you aren’t dying to it, then pray tell- how is it so OP?

methinks there is something afoot here. i sense a snake in the boot. there’s something else going on here. ah, could it being you are spreading tales of fancy to cover up your wounded ego? could be, might be. but, could it be you have no reasoning skills? ah, it could be, it might very be. mmmm, but even could it be you just want nerfs & will say anything to get them? ah, it seems it could be, it may be.

ah, well if you are feeling charitable. young spring onion, maybe you could reveal it to me?

mmm, & our last line. where you implicitly call me a condi cheeser. very confident, also very wrong. i stick to menders on my engineer, & power and greatsword for my warrior or guardian these days. so mayhap recycle that egg dripping down your face, could make for a nice snack?

=====

to the others, engaged in constructive discussion. i do have something to add.

please remember condi skills & cleanses in pvp are balanced around a team setting. it’s why we have builds like power shiro in the meta. because while some builds may be a free kill against condi builds, with a support backing them up they can become juggernauts.

having one – two players playing support is game changing when one has to fight condi builds. a support tempest combined with purge gyro, wings, & other group condi clears that common non support builds have is a tremendous amount of condi clear. it can oft make condi builds completely neutered in a teamfight setting. it’s why condi chrono prefers to 1v1, & it’s main utility in a teamfight is cc not a condi spike.

so, yes condi damage is dang high right now. but so is power damage. 10k+ hits are no strangers these days. heck, the new thief can hit for 30k+ with a single skill. damage is too high currently. but anets poor balancing decisions have snowballed leaving both damage & sustain far too overtuned. i feel the only way to return to a good equilibrium would be to have a full across the board rebalance. which ah, knowing anet, i doubt will ever happen.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Vanilla-Ranger-build-too-much-cleanse/first#post6721197

OP, may i introduce you to another forum poster. he plays condi thief & can’t kill core ranger. maybe you two could form an understanding?
it seems destined to be somehow

like. you two seem like two sides of a coin. so cute. one can’t kill with condi, & the other can’t help but be killed by condi. it seems like, you could bisect & stitch yourselves into something rather impressive/

=====

on a serious note, my darling dear. you have both brawlers recovery & zerker stance in your build. you also have the option of mending (15sec cd is love), Cleansing Ire, & condi clear sigils.

you should be embarrassed. complaining about burn guards. for shame. you are playing a winning matchup vs condi builds, burn guards even more so.

burn guard is a joke with the amount of cleanses warrior has. the matchup is so heavily in your favour you should actually not be able to lose it on equal skill. ergo: you are being outplayed. everytime you lose to the burn guard 1v1 it’s a fight you should have won. you have every single tool you can ever need to beat him. practice.

Master Ketsu.4569:

As has been stated numerous times, the people who desire 5 man are an extremely vocal minority. 5 man would benefit a microscopic group of players at the expense of legit everyone else.

The only way 5 man can ever be OK is if it was 100% impossible to be matched against anything other than other 5 mans. The moment 5 man is allowed to go up against solo queue is the moment matchmaking becomes completely broken.

idk dude. I feel like 5 man queue would be a solution to the tears in the constant ‘Match Making QQ My Team Is Bad’ threads that pop up.

if everyone complaining about their teammates actually formed teams instead of just whining, I’m betting we would have a ton of teams. however they do seem to prefer to cry and lose, so I do see your population issue.

lead a horse to water, but you can’t stop him QQing about people throwing his placement games XD

in a world where warrior has been nerfed to trash. people still call for nerfs….

this is

the guild wars 2 PvP forum

Dicey Garlics.3918:

yeah i feel you on this.. i am an active pcp player.. and i allways get potato teams.. matchmakind is broken.. it should take in consideration the overall games palyed too…
i cant me in a team with potatos with my stats…

is your winrate better with or without pcp?
could you please specify if that’s just for the thief class, or if pcp effects performance on other classes too.

offhand? my dude with hammer no longer available it’s time for rifle to get back in the sun

OriOri.8724:

I can’t believe people are defending a skill hitting for 35,000 damage. It doesn’t matter what the conditions were, that isn’t balanced.

i know right?

how can 30k+ on one skill seems fine?

why the hevk anything needs to be done about DH is beyond me. it’s a deeply mediocre dualist build that falls off in higher play levels.

like. if you can dodge, both the pull, & ToF should be no issue. LB has been nerfed so much is no longer a big threat. so wow, all thats left are blocks & heals. so anyone w an unblockable skill (so common rn) who can also interrupt the trap heal can outplay to victory. easy bby.

so why nerf this really average build? it’s great at low skill, & subpar at high skill. seems to be in a good place.

i don’t think any nerfs to DH will make FB good regardless.

it’s as myself & @Silv said, FB needs a few tweaks & bugfixes to be great. like not average subpar side point pick. like must pick hyper bunker level. ithas unreal potential.

as i said before its only a few things that need to change
> fix RF so it works w books
> make 33% cd trait apply to books as well as book skills
> reduce cast times across the board
> buff healing power scaling

& if you really want to go crazy add this amulet
+1050 Condition Damage
+560 Toughness
+560 Vitality
+1050 Healing Power

those are the stats FB needs to be basically OP with the fixes i mentioned.

currently im very excited for FB potential, there is a lot there that’s good. it just really needs bugfixes & tweaks

ToF really dude? like really?

not like. bugfix firebrand. speed up casttimes. make the 33% cd trait effect virtues. and increase healing power scaling.

feel like that would be far better than nerfing ToF again lol. but I guess if it’s still killing u I get it lol. pretty embarrassing to be rolled by trapper these days.

i’m surprised that soulbeast being able to endure pain for 11sec is not more hype

Berserk should obviously count as a T3 burst/ it takes the same time to build up, & is as skillfull as shooting longbow f1/ can’t see an issue w having it proc the same effects.

seems the best way to get around this issue/ & if we dont get a patch we will all be forced into spellbreaker for pvp/ fml

oh my lord.

people do roaming because its fun. i like to do it in eotm because there is no sweeter thing than rifle butting somone fool off the edge of a floating island.

Spvp & roaming are not interchangeable. they both involve combat where there are usually less than five a side, but that’s where the similarities end. one is competitive, timed, objective based gameplay, in an arena. they other is freeform, dynamic open world pvp on a huge map. they are simply not interchangeable.

@Jumping Lummox
have you ever heard the saying ‘red equals dead’? because it’s very relevant here. we are not in the sandbox with the little yellow truck young child. we are infact fighting a virtual war. virtual yes, but a war none the less. so to accuse your sworn enemy of being a ‘bully’ because they killed you is more that illogical, it’s potato level.

how can you say, that in a war (that you entered of your own volition) any combat between the two opposing forces is bullying is beyond me. bullying happens in scenarios like school, the workplace or the family- places where people are supposed to get on. bullying is not the expected behaviour, people are allied so to speak. they are not supposed to fight each other, they should instead cooperate.

now, in a war zone this all changes. enemy soldiers are not expected to get on, be nice & only fight when the other person agrees. no that’s not how war works. you are supposed to kill the enemy, whether they like it or not (suprise! they wont like it). you cant bully the enemy soldiers, it’s just not possible.

can a Russian Officer bully a Wehrmacht Soldier? no.

is it bullying for that Russian Officer to chase down a fleeing member of a Wehrmacht Tank Crew with two Russian Conscripts, & for the three Russians to kill the German when they run him down? no. its not.

in war the goal as a foot soldier is to kill the enemy soldiers. regardless of the fact the enemy soldiers may not actually want to be killed very much.

so, to see you enter a virtual war- & then complain about enemy soldiers killing you is inane. it’s laughable. they are supposed to kill you. thats the whole point of the game mode. how do you not get this?

im not sure why real world wars with tanks & guns are something that we should use to dictate game design decisions in a magical fantasy role playing computer game. seems like a really irrelevant thing to bring up when discussing changing a mechanic that is integral to the functioning of this games combat system, something everything has been designed with in mind.

im sorry, but i just don’t see any connection here.

Turk.5460:

Judging by the OP’s signature, I’m guessing he almost 1 shots people with a glass gunflame build, but can’t finish them off if they have an ally nearby. Then he gets angry about a mechanic that he already knew existed before he even attacked, and comes to complain on the forum.

yeah, OP being so salty he’s angrily posting nonsense is very easy to believe.

is it any suprise that older people who have hand injuries have issues with reaction time in an action combat game?

something tells me the issue might be on the other side of the monitor, & not with the game. action rpgs are typically fast (ive played many faster than gw2) games. the fluid & quick combat is one of the main appeals. maybe these older, injured gamers are just in the wrong genre if being competitive at a high level is their goal?

sure damge is high, its a burst meta. but the community demanded this, & complained profusely about the previous bunker meta. people are always going to complain regardless, but i think the majority prefer burst to bunker meta.

yeah, PoF looks like it’s gonna be powercreep in some places. but the specs look much better designed as a set than the HoT specs are. they actually synergise & counter each other. to be honest, i think PoF might actually be a huge improvement over what we have now. but that’s just speculation. i’m going to wait untill Helseth, Phanta, R O M, 5 Gauge etc get their hands on it before dropping cash. i value their opinions a lot more that forum QQ & trash.

Jekkt.6045:

Allarius.5670:

I agree with Trevor. Assuming spellbreaker and scourge successfully counter what would likely be the rise of multiple cele builds: (1) you force all teams to include both counter specs and limit build diversity, and (2) if all the needed boons are stripped away consistently, what would have been the purpose to reintroduce cele anyway? Assuming both counters cannot keep up with aoe boon support of multiple opponents, then you’ve successfully slowed down the game and forced cele use to compete, again limiting diversity.

Let us move beyond the nostalgia of yesterday and try to concretely determine what cele would actually bring to the current state of the game and what we anticipate with PoF. Show us some theory crafting of builds you would expect to become functional and worthwhile only upon introduction of cele that are currently not or otherwise would not be upon the expansion release AND that would also be good for the game and promote diversity.

spellblade will be mandatory with or without celestial.

if bunk firebrand becomes meta, & im betting it will. spellbreaker will become meta by default. it’s needed to counter the tomes & insane ressing power of firebrand.

5 Gauge & Phantaram theorise our new meta couple could be scourge + firebrand. the barriers, heals, boon hate, boon rip, & aoe support synergise really well. they also predict spellbreaker being taken specifically to counter this.

i would seriously recommend all of you check out their twitch stream where they go over specs. it’s very insightful. discussion starts about 1.44

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/164732843?t=6293

also @anyone who thinks cele builds work well when you boonrip their might constantly. no. you’re wrong. they hit like a wet noodle with no might. i used to run throw mine on my celestial bombs engineer & the boon rip made fighting any other cele build stupidly easy. oh man, that was a fun build. loads of heals, & with the boonrip it means no stab. so i could just ping pong ball everyone with big ol bomb, rifle 4, & throw mine. so funny.

wow. all of y’all pretending to be so clever, but missing something so obvious.

all cele builds rely on might stacking for damage, & other boons too.

so riddle me this: considering how much boonrip spellbreaker & scourge have (as well as boonrip sigils etc). do you really think cele is going to be as strong as it once was?

like really you guys. we have so much boon hate in the new expansion & the new sigils. you would have to have the brainpower of a matchbox car to think might stacking builds can be as good as they were in the cele meta.

it should be an awesome support weapon after the upcoming core patch (warrior is getting one, so i bet y’all will too). it’s gonna be great for pvp bunkering & wvw zerging. loads of healing, might & area control- but not a lot of damage. pretty much a must have for bunker firebrand.

that’s assuming anet’s balance team have more brain cells than a two dollar bill. which ah, i hope they do. i really do. but ah, time will tell.