Guild Wars 2

fotm is so much more rewarding than anything else in the game that it’s not worth the time or effort to do anything but fotm.

this is as intended.

they engaged in a type of criminal fraud called bait and switch. file a complaint with the federal trade commision. when have scam artists ever made good after bilking people?

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/baitads-gd.htm

i hope they get nailed to the wall for this. seeing them made an example of is better than any refund.

my guild did two things last night:

helped each other start the refeund process

tried a new game together.

granted not everyone was on board with that. but our leadership doesn’t treat our members like children either.

it really came down to me for the refund was that no company has gone back on throwing themselves over a cliff like this. i’ve nver asked for a refund for a game before. i already lament that i won’t be able to hop in and play my toons anytime i like.

i had planned to have this game on my hdd to play whenever for a very long time. but this game company told me to go kitten myself faster than any mmo i’ve ever played.

if they do something out of convenience one time, they will do it again the next time it becomes convenient to do so.

eh network you are drunk. go home.

back to tsw as planned on happening eventually, then from there idk what. mainly just hanging out with my guildies playing random games.

not much to say really. this will go down in mmo history as being more epic than the NGE. because in the case of the NGE at least SOE didn’t spend 5 years saying they’d never do such a thing.

this whole thing just gets better and better doesn’t it?

DivineBeing.2086:

Computers Specifications:
- i7 3930k OC’d to 4.6ghz
- Corsair Dominator 32GB of RAM
- Creative Titanium EditionSound Card with Sennheisers PC350 Headset
- EVGA Geforce 680 GTX
- Monitor is only 22" at 1080p
- Intel SATA III 240GB SSD (Game runs on this one)
- WD Black 1T

Game runs at max settings with VSync enabled so FPS is capped at 60 FPS. I do NOT get 60 FPS always either. I dip into the 20s at times.

Sorry, but there is something wrong with GW2 considering I can run Crysis, BF3, and SC2 with no dips at all.
-

mmos’ don’t perform the same or make the same demands on hardware as fps games, let alone bf3 and crysis.

as for sc2, you must not do many battles with large amounts of units on screen, because it’s been known to drop to a slide show under that scenario even with out AA on.

they said themselves this is just the beggining.

already learned not to link to or quote them or name them, so i can’t post where else they said they would not say ascended is the last of this.

logic dictates that if they do something once out of covnenience, they will do it again when they find it convenient.

whoever they are, which i will not confirm.

Krighton.2138:

xiv.7136:

tbh GW2 is not just the best looking MMO out there, it’s one of the best looking games, DX9 or DX11, it’s still beautiful.

This is complete false information. You have to play every other game before you can make this determination.

Currently, TERA is THE BEST LOOKING DX9 game on the planet. Hands down.

Also, you’ve never played it. Most of you would cry at it’s difficulty. I did.

tera is overly “pretty” but not technically that good looking. it over uses bloom/hdr to such extremes that it’s hard on the eyes.

gw2 is actually better looking on a tehcnical basis, but not by much.

Angelus.1042:

dirtyklingon.2918:

i’ve already learned the hard way to use names of companies or employees of that company on these forums or link to posts made by those people so here goes

on gw2g in 2008 was the first last and only time they said dx10 would be in the game.

later on they said not at launch.

hte primary benefit of dx10 back in 2008 was the improved performance. ambient occlusion is incredibly subtle graphical effect, and easily faked in dx9. in fact swtor and rift both fake it in dx9 right now.

the primary offering for dx11 is not tesselation(which looks great but gives a rather large performance hit) but rather the multithreaded rendering which in gpu intensive appplications offers to boost performance by a rather large margin. for this reason it is very attractive, and in some games which utilize it well, it allows them to add more dx9 and prior eye candy while still giving fps gains as large as 20fps under the same presets under dx9 mode.

anyways dx11 is nice, but it’s not what people usually attribute to it. and dx10 is a waste of time for both players and devs. dx11 without tesselation looks identical to dx9 barring any added dx9 effects under dx11 mode for a game(such as wow).

Performance increase of using it (if your card supports it) is totally worth having it even if hey don’t add any other pretty effects. Thats what I’ve been preaching to about having it. Most games side by side DX9 and 11 show massive performance on the 11 side without having other effects added.
MMOs coming out most noticeably Elder Scrolls Online are already pushing its out of the box DX9 and DX11 full support especially for their massive World V World type battles in PVP.
Anet said they wanted everyone to be able to play the game that’s why they only did DX9…..that makes no sense….they could have had both Dx9 and Dx11 and still had the same amount of people..if not more. Just some more that would be happier with better performance of DX11.

dx11 wouldn’t help performance in gw2 though, because gw2 barely utilizes a low end gpu let alone something decent.

Kitsan.8453:

Are you serious?

This game just hit a humongous iceberg and is now listing badly. Most of the players are on this forum playing “Nearer My God To Thee”. There is a horrible “injoke” in the game called Under New Management.

Whoever was responsible for the current changes has managed to grab defeat from the hands of glory. Not THAT is quite a feat. I’ve never seen the like of it before.

And somewhere in Blizzard headquarters, someone is laughing fit to split.

the changes in this patch everyone is upset about were added because of player feedback according to them.

“dedicated” player feedback.

you really can’t make this stuff up.

i’ve already learned the hard way to use names of companies or employees of that company on these forums or link to posts made by those people so here goes

on gw2g in 2008 was the first last and only time they said dx10 would be in the game.

later on they said not at launch.

hte primary benefit of dx10 back in 2008 was the improved performance. ambient occlusion is incredibly subtle graphical effect, and easily faked in dx9. in fact swtor and rift both fake it in dx9 right now.

the primary offering for dx11 is not tesselation(which looks great but gives a rather large performance hit) but rather the multithreaded rendering which in gpu intensive appplications offers to boost performance by a rather large margin. for this reason it is very attractive, and in some games which utilize it well, it allows them to add more dx9 and prior eye candy while still giving fps gains as large as 20fps under the same presets under dx9 mode.

anyways dx11 is nice, but it’s not what people usually attribute to it. and dx10 is a waste of time for both players and devs. dx11 without tesselation looks identical to dx9 barring any added dx9 effects under dx11 mode for a game(such as wow).

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

dirtyklingon.2918:

everyone in in fotrm making 8x per evening than they ever did in cursed shore way back when the only issue with drop rates was the diminishing returns.

more than a month of changes to cursed shore’s drop rates later, it’s not worth the cost to teleport there anymore compared to pretty much every single other zone in the game.

nevermind that fotm is again, about 8x more profitable per hour than cursed shore ever was at it’s best, cursed shore having at one time been the most profitable part of the game aside from pre nerf 15 minute dungeon paths and exploits.

so if what you want is gold, there is absolutely no reason to do anything but fotm. and that’s what they want you and me and everyone to do, is more fotm. but not becasue it’s fun or interesting. but because it’s by far the most rewarding activity in the game now in terms of gold and stat gear(ie all the actually useful stuff).

If thats the case why not leave curse shore as is and let the people find out that FoTM is now the new profitable area? Why force them to go there?

player feedback

everyone in in fotrm making 8x per evening than they ever did in cursed shore way back when the only issue with drop rates was the diminishing returns.

more than a month of changes to cursed shore’s drop rates later, it’s not worth the cost to teleport there anymore compared to pretty much every single other zone in the game.

nevermind that fotm is again, about 8x more profitable per hour than cursed shore ever was at it’s best, cursed shore having at one time been the most profitable part of the game aside from pre nerf 15 minute dungeon paths and exploits.

so if what you want is gold, there is absolutely no reason to do anything but fotm. and that’s what they want you and me and everyone to do, is more fotm. but not becasue it’s fun or interesting. but because it’s by far the most rewarding activity in the game now in terms of gold and stat gear(ie all the actually useful stuff).

it’s weird. i bought this game up front. but it has the same cash shop model of the most abusive PWE f2p games i’ve had the displeasure of playing.

i was hoping they would epxand and improve upon the whole stated intention of end game and cash shop around cosmetics, i’d love to farm and spend money on more skins that i could more easily swap between.

i really felt in practice the transmutation method was too distructive to have any longevity. see i want to spend more money and time on getting lots of outfits, but i end up double dipping with identical stat allocation sets, it more than halves the value of my dollar. where as i can go back to tsw and spend less money on the sub and cash shop together, and get alot more outfits to play dress up with than i can do with my dollar in gw2.

so idk it’s tough you know? i had been debating with myself to get more stat sets for the remaining skins i wanted, and hope they brought out more, but i guess that is a moot point now.

these videos are from just before the reset. we were actually in there to warm up and get drunker for when the servers rolled over, but we ended up taking a break just befor ethe very late reset and then everyone ended up doing fotm because it’s several factors more rewarding for gold and stats than absolutely anything else.

my video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opfKIUOZkSI

pergonia’s video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba4YTpjxmwk&feature=g-all-u

special shout out to ERIC KENPACHI!!!!!!!!! who is the feircest warrior in all of borlis pass. even at level 18 he knows no fear, and dives headlong into any threat of any size and power without regards for his own safety. he mans catapults that were drunkenly placed inside enemy arrow cart range, he doubel checks that every enemy player is doubel dead with several swings of his sword. w/e guild lands ERIC KENAPCHI will surely become legendary in this game!

anyways i doubt i will do many more videos. i am tired of spending all my pvp sessions primarly juggling groups and other stuff that i haven’t had to in an mmo in 8 years thanks to basic raid group functionality. pergonia is gone home for thanks giving. my guild still has guys doing wvw every day though, but i know alot of them are focusing more time on getting ascended gear towards wvw.

thanks to all my bp and ar bros for making wvw so much fun over the past month or two.

Boomstin.3460:

dirtyklingon.2918:

Nageth.5648:

dirtyklingon.2918:

agony level is the new gear score

Actually fractal level is. Does anyone have any ascended gear yet?

my mistake on the terminology.

i mistakenly called fractal level agony level.

Hmm, wonder what Sigmund Freud would say about that slip? :P

well in my defense i was not completely wrong! either way it is quite agonizing!

either way, this is exactly as intended, as we know from the official statements. there was absolutely no chance of any other scenario, because this is the onyl scenario which results from such actions, and as stated, this was their intentions.

i say i’m going to hit my head with a shovel, and do it, i can’t say i was surprised it hurt now can i?

EDIT:OOPS

hte gw2 community is exactly like every other mmo community because it is the same people as in every community.

w/e pretensions this game had as being some how better or more righteous than other communities were quite silly to begin with, but they were further undermined by the adminstrators of that community, not just here but elsewhere. but ofc if you hav ebeen active in the mmo community for the past 5 years, you would’ve known already how fluffy and silly those pretension when stated were to begin with, though ofc the extgrmee hilarity with which those utopian goals have been executed in some kind of self destructive downward spiral of insanity which is rivaled only by the worst of the F2P management companies was not expected.

Nageth.5648:

dirtyklingon.2918:

agony level is the new gear score

Actually fractal level is. Does anyone have any ascended gear yet?

my mistake on the terminology.

i mistakenly called fractal level agony level.

prenavo.3926:

They really need it. Have an NDA in place for it and make it so you can take/create one character specifically for the test server. An extra character slot that doesn’t count against your normal ones.

they already have this. this is where they got the feedback for ascended gear and agony. they have had player testing for this entire patch for a while.

no i am not in this test group. it is not hard to find out about. i don’t know how many of my wow clone raider associates have used their presence in this test group as proof this is what players actually want though in the last week.

agony level is the new gear score

it started with eq and daoc, wow simply refined and perfected the paradigm.

although i blame the regular CBT NDA testers that populate every single games’ NDA CBT player testing more than i blame greedy dev CEOs and exec producers chomping at the bit to succeed and win the wow prize by doing exactly the same thing as the 20 previous failures have done withotu deviation. since they can when faced by the fact their efforts have resulted in utter ruin and become the objects of ljokes longer lived than any thing on their resumes, can simply look at teh CBT players and say"this is the feedback we got from players like you. it is not our fault, this is what YOU guys wanted".

the mmo genre is ourobouros as a hydra.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

dirtyklingon.2918:

fotm has overnight become about as optional as the same type of activity in any given wow clone.

i think actually dungeons and pvp gear grinds are more optional in wow itself atm.

the rewards from fotm so extremely out paces absolutely everything else in the game, that you can’t consider it optional in the sense in which people keep implying it is.

because even before other activities got nerfed in ongoing patches spanning the last month, including the lost shores patch, they are no where near as rewarding as fotm is.

thats such bull… i do all the content in this game and rather well might i add with the the crud gear i got

although over the last few days my gear has gooten much better do to the new drop rates and such

funny i’ve been seeing progressively worse rewards from activities i was previously engaged in for quite some time.

my guildies are getting insanely boosted rewards from the new dungeon that far out pace above and beyond anything they ever got in the existing dungeons even after the wondrous bags were added.

there is absolutely no equality between the rewards in fotm and absolutely anything else in the game right now. the rewards from fotm are several leagues above anything that was in game previously even at the lowest gating levels.

thsi reminds me of when blizz made craftign essentially require running dungeons because the nodes and mat drops in the world were far far below those inside dungeons. except in this case it;s just so much more extreme. that and you know blizz never advertised otherwise.

fotm has overnight become about as optional as the same type of activity in any given wow clone.

i think actually dungeons and pvp gear grinds are more optional in wow itself atm.

the rewards from fotm so extremely out paces absolutely everything else in the game, that you can’t consider it optional in the sense in which people keep implying it is.

because even before other activities got nerfed in ongoing patches spanning the last month, including the lost shores patch, they are no where near as rewarding as fotm is.

in the past month my farming experience doing the same variety of events(and yes it was variety) in cursed shore has progressively worsened. idk since this particular patch.

however previously this month, in teh last few weeks, i did get normal for previous months’ drops in lower level zones.

cursed shore however, has become a waste of time for me. an expensive one at that.

my feedback:

the patch’s substance, in a nut shell, does not live up to the expectations set by the salesmen. it’s is completely underhwelming. i feel like i’ve been sold snake oil.

the controversy this week has not been handled well, and is leading to a drop in the value of the related brands.

the expected longevity and value of this product is also severely reduced due to the above factors.

this has gone from being tupperware to being seasonal joke toilet paper in terms of perception of the product in several different metrics.

you’ll get no answers in this forum either.

they set expecations themselves. fanboys did not have to do it this time. the tone of the prelaunch hype was set entirely by the masters of this enterprise.

they did not even bother to attempt to expand or improve upon their stated intentions of horizontal progression. what we got at launch was a tease of that. there jsut wasn’t much of a variety of skins, and the prospect of grinding out multiple sets of the same stat allocation to have what skins there are was a bit silly.

i would’ve loved to be en able to have multiple outfits to switch between every day at my own pleasure. i would’ve loved to continue playing farming etc and dumping cash into the cash shop for cosmetic items. i know i’ve already done a great deal of that already up to and maybe past the point of it being sefl defeating and redoncuorus.

anyways, how can we know if the manifesto or anything said prelaunch was wrong or not? it was not purused any further afte rlaunch. there was absolutely no attempt to improve upon or expand it. it was abandoned immidiately in favour of catering to the wow clone raider demographic and zerg guilds.

a LFG chan is not going to change this. pretty soon you’ll be told off for doing anything but spamming LFG/LFM in /m in LA. same as any other wow clone really.

nice thing about wow itself is since lfd was added the /2 chan went back to nice community chatter stuff durign prime time.

Amra.6028:

Astralporing.1957:

Amra.6028:

Ryan.6951:

“8%, wvw availability”

Get your facts right and I might read the whole post next time. Both of those are flat out wrong.

Correct them, then.

It’s more than 8%, and there’s no WvW availability.

Source on the second?

there is no way to get ascended gear from any activity but fotm yet. they said themselves they would add existing activities to be able to get them “eventually”

sorry i can’t link you to the post with this info. i learned not to do that the hard way.

if you want to farm, you’re supposed to be in the new dungeons. everythign else was ninja nerfed leading up to this patch over and over again, and again with the big patch(regardless and opposite of notes).

the onylo viable activity in teh game right now for gold gear or w/e is entirely limited to FotM grinding.

player testing is what got us into this mess.

they actually do have player testing ongoing right now, under NDA, with the vast majority of people invited being zerg guilds and wow clone raiders. where do you think they got the player feedback that led to the ascenson gear treadmill?

player testing is a cancer on the industry in general, especially when it’s under NDA. more than devs and pubs chomping at the bit to copy wow’s success, teh feedback from the same set of incestuous players that get invited into every NDA CBT over and over again that give 2 types of feedback primarily – and that is the first bit is how amazing the game is and perfect in every way- in essense an echo chamber, think of mesmer’s feedback bubble, doign damage to people inside it from their own actions. the 2nd set of feedback is private agendas – that is to cater to wow clone raiders in teh form of progression gear paradigm that has plagued and homegenizaed the genre for the past 8 years, and to tune anything guild related from guildprogression to key money sinks to guilds with 500-2000+ members.

same thing in every game, and gw2 is no exception.

Namu.5712:

Honestly, in the end NCSoft is the one running the show.

I wouldn’t so much as blame Anet because there was probably someone in NCSoft HQ saying “hey your losing players, we tried it your way. Now you do it our way.” And bam you have progression.

Don’t think many people realize what the situation might actually be but its much easier to just sit and rage in the forums all day about how you were lied to or cheated rather then back up and accept the situation and everything that might be involved.

I warned many people from Aion that GW2 would fall under the horrible control of NCSoft and that Anet is NOT the same as they were when they made GW1 and controlled its fate themselves. This is what happens when you sell out to huge company’s like ncsoft.

they have been fully owned and operated since before guild wars 1 launched.

also their foudnign exec presided over the entire aion debacle up until mid-late 2010.

absolving them of blame is silly. they are part and parcel on board with this. look at their personal twitter feeds and posts – they rather whine about us than do the right thing or own up to their own words or confront the issue or be upfront and honest with us.

anyways i learned the hard way they can’t even accept their own words being linked or quoted. it’s probably a bad idea to use the company name or name of any devs in any posts as well.

anything said prelaunch is in the g file now i guess. i would not hold your breath waiting.

iirc from beta it was goign to be done through the world selection window that can be selected at character select. i seem to remember there being a button for it there that was greyed out while it was still there before it was removed.

the first one time event broke on the overflow i was in. so i cba to try the 2nd one.

probably a good thing too, because i guess it was just 40 minutes of standing around then 10 minutes of w/e it was supposed to be.

“raising the price of t3 cultural skins was a good idea”

can’t wait for the epic 25 man raids and flying mounts. i have some friends that want stat progression to work towards in spvp too! this is only the beginning!

and they’ll certainly never ever do it again in three months from now when it’s convenient to do so again to avoid the effort of following through with their previously stated intentions based on player feedback less than a year after saying they’d never do it at all. PROMISE!

it’s because he’s a worse mary sue than the vast majority of devoiant art fanfiction.

if kirk and spock had a baby and that baby went on to save the galaxy single handedly and marry wesley crusher, it would be more interesting and less 2 dimensional than traehearne.

bella swan has more depth and pathos than traehearne.

karma.8763:

By getting exotics you will still be on even ground with people with the new gear, but for the new dungeon, you will need to get the new gear as a must, but outside of dungeon, there will hardly be an advantage, the advantage will be laughable.

there’s not even a shred of truth in this post.

you get more skill points every time it rolls over again.

you can use these skill points to craft in teh mystic forge.

Ditton.3149:

ChairGraveyard.2967:

tetsuo.7318:

Elesare.5604:

tetsuo.7318:

I still fail to see whats wrong with having RPG mechanics like item progression (which the game allready has by the way) in an RPG if you guys dont like RPGs why not play MOBAs or FPS or almost any other genre which diesnt have RPG mechanics?

You could try reading some of the thousands of posts in this thread. That might help.

Lol i dont think reading anymore of this uninformed kittentorm of whining is going to help me understand why people dont want something thats a fundamental part of RPGs since Gary Gygax invented them in the 70s in an RPG…

I don’t think you’ve ever played D&D if you actually think it has a gear treadmill.

Longsword – kobolds
longsword +1 – hobgoblins
longsword +2 – bugbears
longsword +3 – vampires
longsword +4 – mummies, lesser demons
longsword +5 – pit fiend, lich
longsword +5 holy avenger, defender, flametongue…..

There is DEFINTIELY a treadmill or power creep of sorts in DnD..now with spells and magic its a different story..however that is more to deal with creativity than pure numbers like most weapon or skill based classes.

i think you may be confused on some essential differences between these things here bro.

it’s now obvious that arenanet’s words aren’t worth price of electricity to display them on a screen.

what’s next?

raid dungeons?
flying mounts?
pvp gear progression?

“this is only the beginning”
-anet

because it sounds cool and catchy.

why doesn’t half life have any radio active materials?

(JK i know it has radioactive sludge)

i’m sure people in aion wow and swg said the same things bro.

Avatar.1923:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Ralph Koster (UO, SWG) had this idea that gamers had to create their own content, because hardcore gamers would exhaust it, before they could make new content, making everyone miserable.

His idea was that when you have world pvp, or a player run economy, players are competing against other players in a never ending activity. that in itself is a sandbox, where the possibilities and manipluative game systems are the content itself.
people can have fun for years just fighting over territory or be engaged in highly competitive matches to be the best. We know it from other game genres as well. people playing the same maps for years and years.

I think Anet should embrace the dynamic nature of GW2 and move away from the instanced dungeons. they are a relic, and not very social or MMOish. I would rather do more stuff in Tyria. in the open world. change things, take over towns, raise taxes on passing players and npcs. leave my mark on the world, take over places with the guild.

and thats why Eve Online is a cult.
not easily accessible, but definitely more revolutionary than gw2.

player created content is KEY

eve suffers from basic barriers to accessibility primarily through it’s obtuse/non intuitive controls. most players who try eve don’t get past the tutorial solely for this reason.

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

gw2 has had one of the launches for day 1 sales in the genre ever, and quite comparable to non mmo games.

1 million + prelaunch sales.
2.3 million launch week sales.
who knows how many units have been sold since.

to put it this way, revneue from gw2 for first month unit and MT sales put it above BNS’s revenue in korea, which toppled aion easily over night.

from a financial stand point, gw2 has been very succesful, and seemingly devs were expecting number sto become lower, at least their posts during headstart and the first few weeks giving high concurrency rates for any number of things not working correctly indicates that.