Guild Wars 2

The short answere is yes, but it depends on your goals.

Base Guardian is first and formost a support build with some power DPS options that are appropriate for you ( based on what you wrote). It is not top damage because of the support focus, but most guards prefer it that way. Sheild, mace and hammer are defensive, staff is almost pure support. Sword, scepter, and torch is mostly offensive. It also has some condi (burn) through f1, utilities and traits.

The DH elite spec adds greater mobility and some decent DPS potential. Bow is a nice weapon for most situations and the traps pair well with melee weapons like sword or greatsword. This is usualy the PVE/ Fractal dps spec.

Our up and comming FB elite is a mix of additional Condi damage with the Axe as a condi main hand, and a suite of broad support skills.

I personaly run Sword/torch, Sword/sheild, bow, greatsword, and hammer sets in High end fractals and WvW

As long as you don’t intend to be top damage and you want to be durable or supportive, you can acheive whats stated in your post.

I feel the urge to make a bet, but i’ll forgo that. GL on you hypothesis.

Ya i’m aware ragnarox, i’ve got a 2000 word post on it and multiple other posts about the flaws of FB…. thats not the point of the post. If you want to run it, or they buffit (like they did with HoT healers post release). Thats the guess at stat sets

This post in not " lets kitten more about FB". Go find the 40 other posts about that, or revive the Beta week posts.

On a second note the FB will shine in WvW because of the F1 and F3, but its the only game mode that will happen in as “support”. Everywhere else, its just condi

I’m looking at it from a WvW perspective and the likley Meta shifts that will take place, but from a support perspective most of the gear can be used in PVE ( outside of high fractals or the raids).

In going to say the WvW damage base will be seraphs, though there are many options on that one. I also love carrion because i hate low vita, we can usualy drop toughness with minimal impact. I doubt carrion will be in meta though with so many other condi selections that are better for min/max.

The WvW support gear will be Shaman for healing, not sure on what one is best for a boon duration focus. I realy like the concept of mixing shaman with another set to see if i can out do celi.

But, Celi will likley stay if you want a balanced mix…

I realy see 2-3 FB builds as viable for WvW. Direct heals, boons, or burn

I realy don’t care what they do, in its current form it irrelevant as a weapon. And i don’t need to loose an effective auto attack for 4 mid level utilities

First, specify a game mode. Guard doesn’t play the same in all of then.

Second, the guardian class fantasy is designed around support. Since day of GW2, guards have been focused (often poorly) on sustained support.

However, guard does substantiaal dps on several weapons and builds anywhere out side of a top pve raid group. Run sword/ torch or scepter/ torch on radiance and zeal and then tell me you don’ have sustained damage with burn burst. Likewise, our last elite spec was almost pure dps. LB and traps have very poor or no support.

You can dps, you just cannot do it well on every weapon

Its strong in WvW or on bosses. I usualy recomend a symbol build with the zeal trait line. The other two lines depend on content. Its not very good with trash or a highly mobile target though. DH bow or Sword & torch/sheild are my favorite combos with it

Ok cause this is two questions in this thread and i’m bored. Sheild is one of the two metas for guard in WvW and is usualy paired with mace. It also works nice with sword for mobility or scepter fkr range.

Sword is amazing and always has been, but it was often overlooked for the GS. It works very well with a burn build and torch. The teleport and fury symbol is strong and its auto puts decent numbers.

Either are a 2 weapon set up so, radiance then/or zeal as a second option for making a dps build

Its not that the spec is garbage, its not. The Axe is well done and was needed for years. The F1 tome has potential and so do portions of the F3. I also liked the elite and healing mantra.

The buffs on F3 are to many and locked behind crazy cooldowns. Tomes in general are a grwat idea, but poorly executed considering i loose my weapon. And F2 is just to weak and watered down. The mantra rage/cone was horrid… and this was discussed in over 10 different posts by dozens of testers.

Simply put, support is not competative; with the tomes being either clunky or inneffective. While mantras support is a barrier to effective support.

It will shine in WVW due to the F3 and group swiftness. The only area where guard already performs. It will also be a strong condi option, improving its dps versatility. It does not compete in top slots that the guardian already doesn’t fill… wasted and poorly executed

Ah but, a hammer and its skills arn’t supposed to be a burst. Its control, sustained damaage, with strong mitigation. Glacial just traps targets in the AOE longer adding to the cc and sustain; it can also be a cover condi for a burning symbol. And keeping with the OP, it will never realy be used which is a shame for those of us who love hammer

I disagree with the second, post hammer is amazing. Its not great in SPVP, but in other game modes (fractal or WVW for example) its awesome. You get a perma protection symbol that is heavily traitable. Or you get 4 skills of mobility and hard CC’s. Its a little slow on the auto attack, but hammer is a solid design.

OP is on point, glacial heart is a weak option and almost always over looked. In PVP, absolute resolution will always be prefered. And a chilling crit shouldn’t be resolutions competition. Glacial sould be moved

My suggestion is zeal, secod set. Hammer, sword, or condi damage. And this line buffs symbols on the passives

My expectation was that FB would compete as a raid support option in either boon support or in heals, as FB was labeled as a support elite spec (this would bleed over in effectivness to other game forms in effectivness). However, beta stripped my hopes for this and showed ANet was content with mediocrity for guardians.

My only hope is that they don’t nerf burn into the ground while they attempt to make FB more appealing in the month before release. How they’ll do this, who knows. As it stands, i don’t have any FB expectations and i’ll on unlock it for the sake of completion on my guardian main. DH or base guardian is simply better or more flexable than what i saw in beta.

My current hope is that they take community criticsism to heart on the design decisions, but i doubt it.

^ this just makes me LOL

Fractal sword / Fractal Torch… and I re-skinned Bolt for it lol

I was going to make a post here and summerize my opinion, but i already have a 2000 word post on design flaws and a second post on specific skill changes. So meh…

Ya, “meh”… an onomatopoeia used to express disinterest. This summarizes my guardian experience overall from beta. If its releses anywhere close to its beta form, i’m probably not even going to unlock the elite spec on my main. And will either ignor FB or reroll…

This is a SUPPORT Spec, and i was looking forward to having decent boons that were impactful to a fight OR was a contender for a healer. FB tomes have such potential, but they are so poorly executed. And the Stupid! Mantra range… none of these devs have actualy been in a melee fighr with a team.

Guards have poor vita pools that won’t come close to necro, but they have good toughness and plenty of condi clears. Loose some zerker and add valk, take the radiance traitline and go with 1 handed to compensate; i usualy keep about 20% crit. You don’t need pure zerker to be effective on guard. Going that route also opens up more burn options as well that synerze with a solid clear like purging flames….

Mobility is the second problem. By going one handed, you get sword tele and the radiance buffs judjes intervention (i like more tele). Nothing is going to beat wings (f2) if you go dragon hunter though.

I personaly run radiance 2-2-1/ zeal 3-3-3 as my typical build and the 3rd is situational. valk/zerk armor, carrion weapons and sinister trinks for a nice hybrid. Its a bit eclectic, but the stats are comfortable.

This is my approach, there are others. Biggest thing is buff the vita pool and get mobility where you can… if you don’t like the one above or that concept, try a symbol build and hammer for perma protection and healing symbols.

This has ALWAYS been the primary problem with all guardian builds. Speed /mobility always seems to be our primary trade off to the devs, and its an unfair one to shoulder in an ever increasingly fast combat system, both highend PvE or in PvP.

I don’t think the devs will go this route. But it would be more effective than the Guardian patch/band aid that we’re getting. Umm, how i love my drinks watered down….

I agree with the OP

Right now, the only reason i’d take the FB is for the swiftness in WvW. DH with the updated traitlines is superior is most forms of DPS and the FB’s “support” isn’t worth taking note of. This trade off might actualy get us somthing worth taking, instead of just a gimik to accompny the fix to our lack of a condi weapon

Yes, assuming you hittting a burning target and have radiance teaits: guard realy doesn’t need crit chance on 1-handers and the vita is far better served. I personaly get my Crit to 20% and then go Valk

Are you sure you peered into the mists and not a fever dream or a bong? Sources please…

Ragnarox.9601:

Cause guardian is in a good spot, firebrand is in there too.

Stop posting this meme, unless you let us know its sarcasm. Those who don’t firmly under stand guardians strength and limitations, won’t know it and will take you serious….

And I completely agree that Guard should have Barrier if FB was actualy ment to be a support spce. After having sat and tested it at length. I’m pretty sure FB was mislabled by the devs. It should have been pitched and labled as a DPS spec, because thats where the potemtial lies. The suppoort is to unfocused to be effective, unless you consider quickness. And quickness is to hard to acheive on guard when its side-by-side with other support classes. And its healing output is terriable.

I’ll say it again here. No focus on specific support boons or healing leads to them all being watered down and a jack-of-all-support, master of none. Adding one skill or trait that has barrier without a focus on it, would only lead to other options being weakened. We need to loose the random bull kitten boons and give only a few meaningfull ones. Then i would love for barrier to ne one, or hell lets get more protection, or do sufficient healing. But we can’t do all 3 with meaning

LB/GS is exactly what I’ve been trying for in WvW. I don’t think I need a specific damage ability for Beast mode that matches Longbow; and the Eagle is by far my most preferred pet for the LB. I get a passive increase to Power and Ferocity, you can trait for Fury and Quickness on F3, plus I get swiftness and a leap for mobility/kiting. That is a great sniper tool kit.

What I’m struggling with is the Great Sword and Melee range. At 1500, i’M deadly

Agree.

Also why does going into water knock me out of Beast mode/ Leaving the water… this should carry over to aquatic as well.

Please don’t compare anything to the Mesmer… Mirage is only sub-par against the broken God mode that is Chrono, I’m sorry you have to lower the Mesmer back to the level of us mere mortals with your new elite spec. this topic is also completely irrelevant in this class discussion, so thanks for that deep insight on how Soul Beast levels up.

As for Soul Beast, I actually like the tool kit it provides. What I wanted was a PvP/WvW centric brawler and I got just that. Some of the traits and numbers could be tweaked, but its fine conceptually. This is what I wanted in 2015 when Druid was dropped on my lap instead. But I will use it almost exclusively in WvW.

As a returning WvW player, one who played 30 hours a week or more from launch until Hot… I love Soul Beast. I haven’t been looking at Ranger leading up to PoF, as HoT made me stop plying my ranger (which was my main for 3 years). Giving the class healing did fill a needed void, but I still don’t think ranger was the correct class to select for it.

Today I tried it with no expectations. I love this thing. This is the Spec I wanted to receive in 2015 instead of the Healer Spec I never wanted. I think I’m most looking forward to playing the Soul Beast above any other, this is the brawler spec that was needed for Ranger 2 years ago. The moment I equipped my old friend Owl and saw a second full heal with perma swiftness and a leap!; the Class mechanic of Beastmode sold me alone.

I’m not saying that it is perfect, many things need to be tweaked or rebalanced; however, the core concept is fantastic and I can appreciate the new F1-F3 skills selected. I do intent to play it more and I have no current feedback for the stance or dagger, as I’ve been testing FireBrand. I will probably play LB/GS as a scout or roamer.

Thank you Arena Net for finally giving me an Elite Spec I can appreciate.

Somehow mand two of these… please delete…

The Axe:
Love it!

Animations:
Give the tome a Book. It’s been said in other post, and it’s correct. I have 4 main hand legendries on my Guardian and nothing in my hand for tomes. Yet the Revenants Elite will fire Unicorns out of a Mist portal. Clearly an even level of effort…

Mantras:
To disagree with most of the community, the cast times are where they should be to justify the level of utility. The tradeoff is the time associated. And the ammo system is exceptionally well implemented on Mantras.

Mantra of Solace (Heal) is fine, with the exception of range, it should be 600 or an AOE; as it’s more of a support skill. This heal couldn’t hit more than one other player, forget 5.

Mantra of Flame is what it should be, keep it

Mantra of Lore is interesting as a condi clear, but the Regen is a waste; it also has an exceptionally poor hit box. Same problem as Solace.

Mantra of Truth is pointless… This Mantra should be a Utility such as a movement leap or blink; or it should be where our taunt was put.

Mantra of Liberation (Elite) is Exceptional! But suffers the same ridiculous hit box issue. 5 targets is pointless as it will only hit 1-2 allies in most area of the game during a fight.

Mantras in their current form are kind of like taking a group photo: “Ok Boss, please wait one minute while we all get closer together. Umm Ranger, I need you to squeeze in more on the left because you’re not in the shot…. Say cheese!… Opps, I need the Norn to bend down cause I cut off your head.”
You can’t correctly implement a pure melee Support skill that is meant to hit multiple allies in the actual fights that currently exist. This is a penalty and not expected of other classes that currently offer BETTER support than FB does. WTF?

Tomes:
The separation of support on Courage and Healing on Resolve is a brilliant choice and should be further implemented beyond what we see in Resolve currently.

Other than the lack of an appropriate weapon animation, I don’t have a complaint about the Tome of Justice

For Tome of Resolve, this is what is mainly wrong with Fire Brand. It is correct in concept but suffers poor execution. I really don’t need the Condi removal or Vigor in any of these Tome skills. Tome of resolve addresses two things: our solution to swiftness (with Unflinching charge), and it adds to our abysmal healing. This tome should be a competitor for the Raid healing slot and offer a choice equal to Druid. If it does not, ANet has done the Guardian a great disservice. Tome of Resolve needs less random boons and more base healing / targeted healing. I don’t expect to put out significant Heals without the Tome. But while in the Tome, that should be my main purpose in life. The fact I don’t have 100% up time is the tradeoff here with design and to add more random boons would only lead to less base healing.

Tome of Courage, is again well executed and offer my favorite selection of skills coming with the FireBrand. Unflinching Charge, Stalwart Stand, and Unbroken lines are extremely useful and will actually hit our intended targets. However, Daring challenge should have been a Mantra. Placing it behind the virtue cooldown of over a full minute will ensure that it doesn’t see regular use. This slot should have been where the Condi removal and Vigor from Resolve were placed.

Good OP…

I agree with everything you said until the second last portions:
“Add some more utility to these tome skills. Consider adding blind, daze, cripple, resistance, super speed, immobilize and weaken to some of the ToR skills”

they may need more utility, but not so spread out. The effect from every random boon added will take away from the target effect of the skill. the Devs believe in trade off (On Guardian more than most classes). So every point of super speed will result in that much less healing…. All i want this tome to do is Heal, Regen, and Swiftness… THATs IT.

For FireBrand to have a healing tome that competes with the Druid, it needs to be focused or it will cut the base healing out put. Every other need should be added through the corresponding utility choices already available in the core Guard and Mantras… Mantras *sigh

Beyond that, excellent points.

I love the Burn/Condi options of the FireBrand. The support mantras are a waste of code and the support options are to watered down because they are to broad.
1/3 of the elite is worth it, the other isn’t…. Great job ANet, your final grade is a 33!

The fact that the Guardian has SO MANY support options is why it sucks at any one type of support. The game doesn’t need a class that can spam 15 different boons, and mediocre heals; thus no one will seriously consider guardian for end game support in a specific game mode. What we needed was the Elite Spec to specialize in one thing and do it well. Burn may have done this, but support is a crap shoot.

I greatly agree with the OP on how its support should be played, and realy like the suggestions to the changes in virtues. good suggestions

Raids also lead to the need for a superior healing class. What was the ideal choice? Apparently not the dedicated support class from the core game. Instead Ranger was chosen to become the top direct healing class. At the time of writing this and the coming of PoF, Fire Brand has been described as a dedicated support Spec (Excluding the welcome Condi additions); however, our weak healing output on both the core Guardian and the tomes under Fire Brand don’t even come close to competing with the Druid’s output. So we now see an inferior range and an inferior output; instead of what should be direct competition for the Druid, and a second choice for Raids. This weekend may show a change to the healing calculation or changes may be upcoming before release. If not, the Druid isn’t going anywhere and healing Guard will still sit on the shelf as a Raid healer.

“Boon Rip”, “Boon Strip”, and “Boon Corruption” were also not regularly available in the core game. Manipulation of boons was something nearly exclusive to Necro’s. With changes seen in HoT and upcoming in PoF, the removal or manipulation of boons will be Omni-present in group PvP activities. This renders guardian support non-existent. Where other support classes will still be able to provide some support options such as direct heals off Druid, Barrier from Necro, or Alacrity from Chrono; Guardian will provide no benefit while operating in the 2017 world of boon-negation aside from again being a poorer choice over Druid. Guardian will also fall heavily behind classes that have innate movement buffs from traits or signets. This is a balance issue in WvW and will see guardians trail in zergs who are engaged in combat.

Looking at Guardian in PoF, I cannot wait to play a full-fledged Burn Guard and now have the option to add bleeds and play an optimal Condi build. I’m not entirely sure if I will be trading in my Bolt for a new axe or if I may simply keep my sword/ torch for FB with an additional fire mantra. I’m also quite fond of my hammer and I may go for a zeal/ radiance build. Regardless, I think the condi focus was a welcome addition. I do also like the tomes where I see a true potential in them. I also can’t help but feel that support is only going downhill and being further restricted due to the guardian design philosophy built and carried since 2012.

What does Guard need to be successful in PoF? We need a competitive support spec that will give alternatives to top options, not an expansion to the 5th string choice. We also still need our movement deficiencies to be addressed instead of given a Band-Aid. When our support has no focus, we are a poor support choice. Likewise, if our support is too small to be effective, then we support no one but ourselves.

An additional suggestion is Guardian boons being streamlined, the Jack-of-all-support hasn’t cut it since HoT changed the support availability in game. What Guardian should be focused on is Aegis, Protection and Barrier; then either condi-clear and stability (PvP centric) OR direct heals and regen that come closer to the Druid’s output (PvE centric). Give us the tools to choose instead of being forced to take all, at the detriment of being watered down. The F2 and F3 Tomes go a long way towards this, but I doubt that will be enough.

Power creep: I don’t think the Support Fire Brand/Support Guardian should be more powerful than the support Mesmer or Druid; however, the idea of Balance is to not have a single top choice but rather several possible options for any given role. It is my hope that FB will give the Guardian a place in top Raid slots and begin to be relevant in SPvP and WvW.

Now, I’ve tried to be constructive in my complaints and illustrate why I have reached these conclusions. You will also not find me active on any other forum sections because I don’t care if other classes succeed or fail. I main Guardian, and I have played it in every available form of game content since 2012. I complain because I want the class to be successful. I complain because I want my class to be relevant to current metas. Going into PoF, it is currently in the list for most neglected and/or irrelevant.

Defensive support: When Guild Wars 2 launched in 2012, most classes had selections of self-boons; however, few classes could effectively share boons with other players. This was where the “selfless defenders” and “empower their allies” comes from. At one point guard was really the only true support role, and its class fantasy was a fitting option. But things change and evolved, HoT introduced Elite Specializations. The Tempest, Chronomancer, and Herald were all built with the concept of support in mind and we also saw the broadening of Warrior support options. With GW2 in its current state (Spring / Summer 2017) we see Guardian as the 4-5th best choice for support. This position is likely to drop further behind Necromancer, as we see the introduction of Barrier and our complete lack of what should be a very fitting Guardian ability.

Additionally, core guardian was built around a wide range of defensive and offensive boons. It was the only original class that could provide every core boon. This broad selection meant that Guardian specialized in none of them. Meaning that other classes will almost always provide selected boons better than guardian, following the broadening of support in HoT. Which in turn leads to the ability to select another class over the guardian for support in every specific game mode. The only current boon where guardian leads is in group stability, and is normally only associated with skirmishes in WvW. In PoF, FB seems to improve this WvW centric focus by the addition of skills like “Unflinching Charge”, “Stalwart Stand”, and “unbroken Lines” under the F3 tomes. Likewise the “Mantra of liberation” is exceptional for group PvP. They are exactly the type of support skill the Guardian should be focused towards. As for the other two support Mantras, I’m not very optimistic and they seemed to have missed the mark completely.

As for Offensive boons, how effective the guard will be in PoF remains to be seen and much needs to be tested. However, we now have a strong source(s) for quickness and more flexibility with retaliation. As the community combs through viable builds and crunches the numbers, our new support spec may win out in offensive support. The real question is, will it be enough to challenge the Mesmer’s position as top Raid support? Unlikely, as our perma quickness is much more difficult to achieve and requires much more effort due to positioning. While I do agree that attacks for a melee class should be short range, requiring melee range or a frontal cone is just punishing a class in terms of support. It’s not going to allow a place for strong players to shine, it’s going to lead to irrelevance. The frontal cone and reduced range is a penalty unless similar support classes are given the same restrictions for the same type of support.

The 2012 design philosophy: In 2012, ANet also decided to do away with the class trinity commonly associated other games, and was a refreshing change. However, HoT saw a reversal on this topic as Raids clearly needed some delineation in roles. What should have been the clear choice for a tank-like role was never given Taunt. The current tank role is now filled most often by the same Mesmer class, who are apparently not weighed down by their armor nor restricted by having only melee range. Why are our design limitations so prohibitive because we are a “melee” class? Or a heavy armor class? Superior support is continually encouraged on a light armor class, which is also somehow the top tank choice for most raid encounters… What is the point of Heavy armor? All design tradeoffs with no apparent benefits. In PoF I doubt the guardian will take any tank-like roles in upcoming raids, but I would be remise in failing to mention the Taunt we now have access to under virtues. The problem is that it is locked behind the Virtues cooldown; once again this should have been a Mantra.

As I attempt to evaluate if I will again “main” my Guardian for PoF, I cannot help but question the professions role in support as we prepare to receive a dedicated support, Elite Specialization.

To truly evaluate any spec, we need to look at the competitive game environments: end-game instanced PvE ( Fractals > 50 and Raids), SPvP, and WvW. I will omit any evaluation of open map metas, world completion or living world as these game modes rely more heavily on completing the zone mechanics and bring with them a more come-one, come-all design. Open world and story is simply more forgiving. Your particular spec does influence how you experience the entire game, but it will be felt most severely in Fractals, Raids, SPvP, and WvW; content that accounts for a large portion of daily game play (all game play for some players).

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.” — GuildWars2.com

However, when I look at developer comments and commentary about the guardian in both past and present media, I cannot help but feel that the development team looks at the guardian as a hulking turtle, slowly wading through combat and attempting to pick up allies along the way. But this visualization is not perceived during actual game play. The design philosophy is disjointed from the packaged product and the realities of the game environment.

First, we are finally getting a dedicated condition based main hand weapon, with more damaging condition options! Thank you, its 5 years too late; but I’ll gladly take it. Full condi guard was something that should have been included on core guardian in 2012. But the Fire Brand’s offensive options do look encouraging. Honestly, thank you for finally giving us an optimal option instead of a barley viable choice. We may actually be considered for raids now… maybe. But I have never had a complaint about the damage on a guardian, and few people are drawn to the guardian’s class fantasy saying “I really want to do top damage”. Nope, most play it because they want to be supportive or durable where the desire for damage develops as they play the class more often.

Damage aside, the guardian suffers from three design flaws centered on being the “most durable” profession in the game: An over emphasis on defense that negates mobility, an over emphasis on broad defensive support leading to a jack-of-all-trades, and an under emphasis on direct healing based in the 2012 design philosophy.

The most durable profession: “we want players to feel the weight of being a heavy armor class” is a phrase you can hear in multiple places throughout the last 5 years from various ANet staff, to include the most recent Dev stream on 17 Aug. However, this “weight” isn’t usually associated with the highly mobile Warrior or the Revenants Herald. So what Devs really mean is that they want us to feel the weight of being a Guardian? This unfair burden has been one of the class’s most detrimental short comings.

Core Guards have two mobility skills that are locked behind our targets location and we have several poor options for providing group swiftness. Dragon Hunter improved this by giving us Wings of Resolve, undoubtedly the most useful skill in the entire skill line to date. Why? Because Guild Wars 2 employs (or attempts) an action based system where combat revolves around movement. A boss AOE is best mitigated by moving out of it. Guardians’ movement limitation is also why my WvW guard has had Travelers Runes for the last 5 years, any other option was largely foolish. When you cannot keep up with your team mates you’re either left behind or you become a burden. This weekend I was pleasantly surprised by how much swiftness is available in the F2 and F3 tome skill sets for FB, we have perma swiftness on a Guardian FINALY. It is a lot of skill rotation and I’m not sure if the tradeoff is worth it on a support character; on a DPS build however, it’s a very welcome addition. And as a 5 target buff, this will likely be the new movement meta in WvW. Bye bye Travelers! You will still need to run DH if you want your leap out of danger, as FB does not address this large issue. A leap would have been a welcome addition as a Mantra instead of the two utility/support Mantras.

Obtena.7952:

RabbitUp.8294:

Baseleader.4128:

Just goes to show how ppl love to whine on the forums. Firebrand looked very good, loads of new stuff, high condi DPS, lot of support. It’s gonna be a beast in WvW

“loads of new stuff, lot of support”

If you can’t specify, it just goes to show you have no leg to stand on. We know every single skill and trait of firebrand, we don’t need a dev stream to wow at.

Yes, it looked good burning those low health golems. Did you see it in wvw getting boonstripped to hell and blown up in seconds? Did you see it in raids being a watered-down chrono? Did you see it in pvp trying to fight at 300 range with no mobility or defences?

Why do people assume that the spec was even built for PVP/WvW focus? We already know from past experience that Anet isn’t doing this. For example, scrapper was a PVP focused spec. It doesn’t even make sense to say that the spec isn’t good because it doesn’t do this or that. That’s been true of the game since day one with the core professions.

This is a flawed thought process. No class should be designed around a single game mode, but to assume that a class and elite spec should be able to function in Raids, WvW and SPvP is expected; as that is roughly half the available game content… what eles are they designing it for? Living world season 4?

Fashion Mage.3712:

RabbitUp.8294:

Yes, it looked good burning those low health golems. Did you see it in wvw getting boonstripped to hell and blown up in seconds? Did you see it in raids being a watered-down chrono? Did you see it in pvp trying to fight at 300 range with no mobility or defences?

^This.

If guardians actually pop up in raids, it’ll be because they can share signet passives. I don’t see why anyone would want to bother with 300-range cone support over just using a druid or chronomancer.

Yes this exactly. The new elite spec has to complete with existing options, you can not evaluate a class in a vacume.

Baseleader.4128:

Just goes to show how ppl love to whine on the forums. Firebrand looked very good, loads of new stuff, high condi DPS, lot of support. It’s gonna be a beast in WvW

If you look at it in isolation, in terms of the Guardian in a bubble and only confined against one game type. Ya, it may be a good DPS build for high end PvE. And it will probably expand our options in WvW.

But my enthusiasm ended once I started comparing it against what other classes have received through the two Elite Specializations. I’m looking forward to having a Burning/Bleed weapon and another Burn utility; but a condi weapon is something Core guardian should have had. HoT addressed some of the problems with Guard but fell short of many other elite specs in terms of dedicated endgame damage or dedicated support. Now we get a second elite spec that again addresses a Core missing element, which also removes our mobility “fix” from HoT, and adds sub-par support that is less effective than the current support classes. existing power creep in GW2 suggests that our new elite support should be equal to, or better than the current top support options. If not, what’s the point?

New skills need to impact and drive the current meta; or at the very least, compete with it. If not, don’t bother giving us a lack luster options that is at best 3rd or 4th place. probably lower.

Keep the Axe, that part is probably fine and I’m honestly looking forward to the Condi build. But the support is kitten compared to the current support meta, on a class that was designed around group support, with the gain of a dedicated support elite spec… I want an option that will make the guardian relevant to the current meta as a support option in Raids or WvW. I don’t want the 4 or 5th string selection in terms of support. I want this:
“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know how to empower their allies to achieve victory.” https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/guardian/

LetoII.3782:

You could always set them on fire.

Ohhh! no way. I’m just now finding this out after 5 years….. Thank you for your vast insight

Charr. Everyday, all day…. Though tasteful armor can be a challenge depending on your preferred looks

But kiss goodbye to our WvW role after the Warrior elite boon strips… Guardian is now a class that may do ok DPS (I hope in Condi, cause it’s not there in Power). But a class that is undesirable in most game modes, as other classes outshine the guard’s original/sub-par “support” through boons. Meaning other classes will be taken while the guard collects dust as it is irrelevant.

We were alright support at launch, but now support guard is a joke. It’s actually the Core guardian that is the “support” problem and its reliance on bland boons that every other class produces, it cannot keep up with the new support Elite Specs. And our new “support” options are not helping. Not enough effect, to short of range and just doesn’t cut it in melee. The only thing it may do right in support is its protection application. But very few people want to run hammer do to its speed and the fact that targets move.

Combine that with the abysmal range and the complete lack of mobility (short of the DH virtue and 2 target dependent blinks… which isn’t enough) and we’re going to continue to struggle.

The guardians Core design of being a main source of group boons is what is actually going to hold it back. Support has evolved to the 2017 meta and this class is still playing in the 2012 game.

The only hope Guardian has in the next expansion is if they are on top of the DPS meters with Condi damage. If FB isn’t, stick a fork in it.

No the Axe is fitting and we needed a dedicated main hand Condi. I think the damage side of FB will be great. I want the 5 damage tomes and the mantras are awesome in concept and have a partially spammable burn utility. No complaints.

However, as a support role: I have serious trouble seeing how we are a good support role outside of WvW zergs or hammer on map meta-events. Yes, we have a wide selection of basic boons; all of which can be generated by other classes. All of which are outshined by the support roles offered by other classes.

The guardian was THE support class fantasy when GW2 dropped, look at its original flavor text and descriptions from 2012… yet every time any kind of substantial support has been added, guardian has been overlooked. Want a healer, get a ranger. Want a tank, get a Mesmer? Next up is Necro. Sadly I origionaly rolled my Guardian during release as a dedicated support and the only time in 5 years that I have done that is in WvW. A role that is about to be stripped by warrior elite.

Unless most of the community is wrong, support guardian no longer has a role and probably isn’t viable anymore. Sure you can run it, but half the non-support classes in their new roles WILL out shine your support guardian. I’m just glad I can now set them on fire to make up for my support disappointment.

Barring our abysmal range and mobility. I Couldn’t be happier with the Condi. While I couldn’t be sadder about our “support” selections as a pathetic jack of all support, master of none.

What i cannot understand is how Guardian did not receive a large volume of skills allowing for the application of the new barrier support mechanic. The profession fantasy built around guardian is that of close support to protect our allies. Finaly a mechanic is released that actualy does this and we have no part in it…. on a new support build that is partialy designed around close range/melee support

What? Realy ANet?

The bleed is a cover condi from the perspective of condition clear mechanics or in a pvp setting. The downfall of burn guard in pvp was the reliance on only one condi, having 2 or more means you will have a greater chance of the harder hitting condi not beimg cleared. From a non-pvp perspective, the concept of a cover condi is pointless in most fights as the vast majority of npc opponents don’t clear. Therrfore in pve, a second condi is simply more dps. My perspective is that a condi FB will focus on either burn or bleed and the other will be a bonus / cover in pvp. In pve it is simply more dps potential, and a welcome addition… you guys realy do need to define the game mode you basing you point in. Open world, fractals, raids, spvp, and wvw are all very different and drasticly change how you utilize most abilities

I keep seeing the term “best”, best at what? You need to define your game mode. I hate Raids and SPvP then i love Fractals, WvW and open world. What is best for me in a WvW raid will not be best in a true PvE Raid instance and probably will not be the best in fractals. Like wise, i don’t run my fractal build in WvW either. Don’t assume your content is the only content.

What Firebrand brings is options that may or may not be optimal in a give game mode. I hope it has the Condi DPS to shine in PvE and it will certainly broaden the support options. I’ve also wanted to play a true condi Guard for sometime, so i’m happy about the Axe.

But whether this elite spec will outshine other specs/classes in a give role remains to be seen. Everything else is speculation until after PoF drops and we’ve had a chance to evaluate each class by the community and how they stack up aginst each other. Even after the event this weekend is over, we’ll have a better idea. But that won’t be enough for a true evaluation.

To the OP. I have wanted to play a Condi Guard since I created my Guard during GW2 pre-release. Condi guard has been attempted as flavors of the month (mostly in pvp) in the past, mostly due to the burst. And condi guard has always fell short due to two reasons:
1. A single condi is to suseptable to clears
2. No main hand condi attacks forced a raliance on virtues and utilities/traits

The Axe is the first time Condi may be viable and though the Firebrand is “support focuses” those should remain in the virtues and mantras. Your lack of support in the Axe skills should not be a concern, it sbould be embrced. Guard has a full selection of support weapons: mace, sheild, hammer, staff… use one.
Leave the Axe full DPS as it should be

For your other weapon concernes. Building current weapons in the pre-path of fire balance patch is fairly easy through an embrace of virtues and symbol burn. The ideal burn set is sword/torch or sceptor/torch for range selection or alternatly hammer is an often overlooked option that give a permanent symbol (statisticly burning symbols and inproved justice lead to a burn on roughly 1/2 your attacks in concept). You will still have these options on the firebrand.

As for your condi-support, this doesn’t have a strong solution. But this combination probably isn’t a good choice for any optinal build outside of a class fantasy. Your support weapons are power based, then your going to be power based for optimal builds. They would need to create/rework a weapon to acheive that combination. Adding support to the axe would only lead to a inneffective condi guard for the 5th year in a row

Ok. I haven’t posted in a while, because I have appreciated most of the changes. Most were fairly well thought out… however, this announcement MADE me make a post.

Reset is what the majority of WvW’ers live for. It’s about showing up as a guild and having fun together, win or lose. It’s like a weekly party for us. It’s also when most of us are off work for the week and looking to unwind with our friends. WvW is not always about the points. This time swap will utterly destroy that environment.

Second, you’re putting reset well out of the time zone for a large portion of both EU and NA, we are getting a raw deal. I was all for the Saturday, but please keep it in NA afternoon or evening.

A few players may insist that there build may work in both situations (zerg and solo) and to an extent, that may be true. To build any class to be “effective” in both solo and zerg is possible, but only to very specific degrees.

I have had minimal success on warrior, guardian, necromancer, engineer and ranger trying to do what you have proposed above.

The conditions experienced in WvW can generally be broken into three main groups; Zerg, small group and solo respectively. Each of these can be broken into 2-3 sub-groups:

Zerg can be described as front line (survivability and CC, generally at the front of combat); back line or flank (high damage, lower survivability and often ranged or AOE damage); and support (healing, boon production, condition removal)

Small group can often be broken into precision attacks (cut supply routes or clear enemy stragglers) or general purpose (often termed “havocs”, used to capture camps and “ninja” towers)

Solo can be broken into Scout, Roamer (1v1 interested) or precision attacks (yaks). Also most players find themselves as an in-bound reinforcement on the way to one of the above mentioned groups.

Additionally; the above is only from an offensive perspective; we can omit defense as, any of the above organizations are able to apply defense of yaks, camps, towers and keeps to varying degrees of success.

It is nearly impossible to make a single build that is effective in all the above situations. You can make a build that will “survive” in all the above situations, but you will be hard pressed to deal sufficient damage to achieve successive kills. ANet has done a very good job (in my opinion) of allowing all of the classes to fit into one or more of the above mentioned roles. However, if one class and one build was capable of doing all of the above. It’s very likely that it would be the only class you would encounter in WvW after only a few months.

That being said, what do you consider being effective? “To outlast and kill 2 opponents while alone”; “To survive frontline in a zerg V/S zerg”; “To provide healing and condi clear to your group allowing them to survive the fight”; “To devastate an enemy Yak and evade a group”; “or simply to survive anything and everything while scouting”. You will not be able to do all the things I just put in “*” on one build. The largest problem with your question isn’t what role the build is filling but rather the expectation of what is (or isn’t) “effective” or what is (or isn’t) “contributing”. This answer will vary greatly depending on your server, your guild / regular WvW group and your individual level of play experience. So again, to build any class to be “effective” in both solo and zerg is possible, but only to very specific degrees.

Like most of Arena Net’s consumer base, I have play MMO’s for over ten years and Video game (in one form or another) since late adolescence. And like most, I have a tendency to evaluate my play experience and compare it with others I know who play. I am writing to discuss the conclusion of one such conversation, where in I was asked “what is the one change you could make if you were able?”. At the time I honestly didn’t know. I find it hard to criticize software as polished as Guild Wars 2 while still being in its infancy. Rather, my though process drifted towards what would enhance my play experience (on any class) and the experience of those around me. My suggestion: have the 7-9 utility slots rotate sets with the 1-5 weapon slots. This would allow further flexibility in play styles and would conform to Arena Net’s perceived goal of presenting a simple and clean interface. Now I’m introducing this to the forum simply to socialize the idea with both the administration and with the consumer base’s.
The weapon types associated with GW2 classes offer a broad range of play styles (long, mid, close, and melee range / direct damage, critical damage, condition damage with control, mitigation and survivability). Most classes have several utility slots that lend themselves quite nicely to any of these styles. But with only three, they are usually limited to one facet at a time. Yet most classes have two weapons slots offering us two different styles if we choose (with obvious exceptions such as the Elementalist). If my character can swap between a melee and a ranged combat style simply by swapping weapons, why shouldn’t I swap between a melee and ranged set of utilities to complement those skills? Likewise, with a single target set and a multiple target set or whatever styles you as the player gravitate towards.
To address several counter arguments (or the ones that I have thought of). The first concern I think of, is having the ability to use a powerful utility skill twice by simply swapping weapons. The first solution is to have that individual skill share its global cool down with both proposed utility sets. So if you activate an ability then change sets, you would still be required to wait for its cool down to finish regardless of how many utility sets it was mapped to. The second solution may be to only allow any given utility skill to be mapped to one utility set and not both; but this would present a challenge with passive skills such as signets. The second concern is a class that only has one weapon and cannot rotate weapons. As the attunement system is already an advantage of the Elementalist class (granting 20 weapon related skill as opposed to 10 on most classes. Each of which have a separate cool down) they may not be subject to swapping utility slots as they can’t swap weapons. However, should Arena Net feel this may be unfair to the class. You may be able to link two or even four utility sets, one to each attunement (although I have enjoyed playing an Elle, I am against this proposition). And the third concern which I am unequipped to answer: what is the increased difficulty of balancing (class to class) while having to take six utility slots into consideration, instead of three? And is it feasible? What may sound like a good idea in one aspect of the game may completely break another aspect of game play entirely. And I feel as the consumer, we frequently neglect balancing issues in aspects of the game we don’t typically play. Then over emphasized imbalances within aspects we do play (I enjoy WvW, open PvE and some Dungeons. I have limited understanding of SPvP). Thus, I leave this issue to the design teams.
I apologize for the wall of text and feel that I have sufficiently outlined my thought process. For those who had the attention span to get through it . . . Should you feel it’s a notable idea, please feel free to comment and/or share it with others that play. If it proves to be a bad idea, no harm done; as this will most likely be my one and only post on this topic. I am sure you will rage below.