Guild Wars 2

If I see my ally fight 1v1-X I see how he fares:
1) He does well – I go my way and leave them (he might be recording).
2) He does poorly – I will not let them stomp my ally but I will not interfere until he is down.
I am first and foremost a roamer and I don’t want when others disturb me even if I 1vX (I can handle that most of the time) and I assume that others think like me, hence aforementioned points.

If I see two enemy forces fighting, I will just stomp them both so that none of them feels bad.

I don’t disturb fights behind windmill or inside obs or, generally, any clear duels or gvgs.

Zach.3264:

Cufufalating.8479:

Because they are annoying. You cant play the way you normally do against thieves because either they spend half the fight in stealth or half the fight way out of range shadowstepping about with the sword. In a 1v1 situation its very hard to overwhelm a thief with enough CC to actually pin them down and get enough damage into them before they disappear off agai.

They are just.. annoying to fight, and it makes people frustrated, which is then compounded if they lose so they come and call OP, when what they mean is “I hate them”.

This is pretty much it.
Basically every other class is just a case of out-damage them. When you’re against a thief you need to play tactically. Guess where they are in stealth (put yourself in their shoes, where would you move to?). Dodge/evade when you think they are going to open from stealth. It’s all about playing tactically and a spot of luck on your side aswell.

I agree with you two there. I like to compare fighting a thief to boxing now vs then. In the past two boxers would just rush to the middle of the ring, stand face-to-face and maul each other to the knock-out. Whereas current boxing is a game of opportunity and agility rather than just blatant strength (not to confuse with stamina or endurance).

WSAD;
1: M1 (mouse button);
2: 2;
3: 3;
4: 4;
5: R;
Heal: E;
Utilities: Z, X, C;
Elite: 1;
F1: Q;
F2-4: Shift+Utilites (play thief most of the time @F1);
Dodge: Space;
Jump: V and M2 (for ez jump-dodge);
Sheath weapon: L-Alt (weapon-sheath canceling tricks in mind);
Finish: F;
Swap weapons: Shift+M1;
Default targeting;
Inventory, guild, etc. binded to nav arrows in order to reduce random input;

EDIT: Keyboard turning UNBINDED

In general if they nerf something again basing on the forum-ranters opinion and not actual class balance.
But mostly this:

If they nerf S/D again, im outtie.

frans.8092:

Shockwave.1230:

frans.8092:

scabrous.7835:

Was it horrible and not viable back then? – Yes.
Is it good now? – Yes.

Game didn’t change that much. meaning your earlier qualification as ‘horrible’ was not quite accurate.

Just a quick summary of some of the changes people have mentioned for fyi purposes:

• Non-ferocity builds have 10% more crit damage when using berserker’s amulet since the april patch (this is free damage for s/d acro that it previously didn’t have)
• Strength runes (provide 3+ might stacks as a fight progresses on, and perma 7% damage buff). Strength runes also make might more readily available for stealing.
• Cleave wasn’t quite as strong in the meta, so the higher damage thief builds stood out more.
• Sigil changes add more damage overall to all builds (this impacts s/d acro)

Crit damage bonus only triggers on critical hits, +10% crit damage is no more then 4-5% damage – especially without the 300 precision. Not a big deal. 3 might stacks is only 100 power and +7% is nice but the runes are available to everyone and they do not change the relative strength of builds much, although in combination with Sterngth Sigils they’d favor high crit chance (Critical Strikes) more. Sigil +damage affects all builds.

It may have improved with the patch, but a horrible vs. good qualification change is not due to the ferocity patch, but an earlier mis-judgment. Which is no big deal, but the denial is plain silly.

Since you are nitpicky, let me be to nitpicky as well. Pre-patch build used Lyssa runes for the cond bomb/ mass cleanse and to, to some extent, offset precision lost from CS. What it lacked, though, was killing power. Horrible build is a build that serves no purposes and it was a horrible build. It could sustain itself for very long time but had hard time competing with 10/30/0/30/0 which had both sustain and killing power.

And now onto the “numbers” since yours are blatantly wrong. First of all, the damage in crtdmg is 20% and not 10. “Omg noob, why? 300 ferocity is 20% and was 30%” Indeed, but zerk and valk ammies were buffed for the remaining ten. Secondly, rune of strength buffs the dps of this build twice:
a) 7% modifier + might stacking which outdps-s Lyssa Runes. The difference in damage is more of an 10-12% dispersion rather than 4% that you have mentioned. Sigils+runes+ammy all add to the final result.
b) it gets additional benefit in the meta – ubiquitous usage of runes of strength. SD is back in meta mostly to counter other specs using these runes (Sigil of Intelligence Soldier’s Hambow comes to my mind).

If you adress my post, refer to the entire concept and not just two lines that you find fault with. What you brought up had been resolved in my previous post. While in this one all I do showing your lack of knowledge of the available PvP gear as well as differences pre-post patch.

PS Don’t adress this post since I am not going to look into this topic anymore. Cheers to RedSpectrum for siding with Argh vs forum ranters.

yski.7642:

Dee Jay.2460:

This isn’t 2012 anymore where you could kill most enemies with a single Cloak and Dagger + Backstab combo.

Not entirely true – people who actually dodge my obvious signet burst when I run straight at them seem to be a rare breed.

DD is still beast against mediocre or worse players. The field where it, imo, lacks is fighting people that actually anticipate CnD and dodge it. I played SD/DD for a very long time so I know it inside-out. I still play it from time to time just because it feels cool but its skill ceiling is pretty low compared to other sets. SD/PD have been my combo of choice for quite a time now, just fyi.

This thread is hilarious. Made my day. Love thief forum for all the hate.
Do I remember OP bringing up this build long ago? – Yes.
Was it horrible and not viable back then? – Yes.
Is it good now? – Yes.
Does it have anything to do with the OP? – No. The reason why “your” build made it to the meta is Ferocity. While 2/6/0/0/6 with zerk amulet didn’t change, Critical Strikes tree itself did. You have obviously noticed that CS gives 20% crt dmg now and zerk amulet was buffed up with these 10%crt dmg to offset the trait tree. Couple it with new sigils and runes of strength and you get the build that packs the punch of 2/6/0/0/6 while having all the benefits of acro.

I would encourage OP, though, to go easy on it. I indeed thought of you when I saw people play 2/0/0/6/6 because I was following the forum back then but it does’t mean this build is yours or that ‘intellectual property" nonsense that you try to impose on people. For instance, I played 10/30/0/0/30 after Steal change the very same day that the patch hit in. I talked about it in my guild, so technically, there’re proofs that this is Three Jackdaws’ build. Also, I played 0/2/6/0/6 the very same day; it’s very similar to 2/0/6/0/6 that I play now and one could say that this is Amon’s spec (and oh irony, people told Amon that this is Trigerless’s spec which is even more ludicrous).

TL;DR I do know that you were one of the first people to play 2/0/0/6/6 on a daily basis. However, you ranting is not the right way to go and only detracts from your, at least for me, opinion of quite good a theory crafter. This is no children sandpit.

Zach.3264:

Guardians because their mobility isn’t that great.

Zerg specs aren’t mobile but typical triple meditation Sword/Focus + GS or Hammer + GS are extremely mobile given that guardian has a target to port to; much like Inf Strike and Inf Signet and Steal.

Thieves >> all

It shouldn’t have been hot fixed the day people posted about. Now, most likely, we are going to wait for it till the next balance patch hits in.

I use Runes of Strength in WvW and if it wasn’t for the 7% boost I am certain that I would use Runes of the Pack (almost perma fury with trickery V that you mentioned). If you like to get might duration, Rune of the Hoelbrak is also a very good, yet cheaper, alternative that has -20% cond duration on 6/6 as well.

Grab remaining ascended armour first. Runes of the Pack are amazing and they are not lacking compared to the Runes of Strength, imo. Asc armour gives you not only stats but, primarily, more armour. Go for it!

When I still played D/X in WvW it was DD that I used. I just find X/D sets to be a lot more fluid even though Dancing Dagger is a really poor skill at the moment, so to speak.
I feel that /P sets don’t have ‘rythm’ of their own.

I would really encourage you to go DD/DP in WvW if you cannot make up your mind.

No. I do not believe in micro-transactions and additional costs/fees in Buy-2-Play games. Also, including costs will result, in almost 99% cases, in cry babies of “I-payed-I-want-to-play-it-my-way” type.

If it was only 5% on duration and 2% on damage, I would keep it. Any more and I would be back to Ogre or Pirate (both would e clearly superior) and Pack in WvW/PvE.

Zach.3264:

You really don’t need any toughness at all when playing D/D

I crafted my Thief to 80 in a day, bought a zerker set and jumped right into WvW with D/D.
I’m by no means an elitist or think I’m above average, but I can honestly say I have still barely died to this date.

You have so much stealth that you can heal any raw damage dealt in no time, you also have a ton of escapes and evades.

After the recent patch I moved 30 points from Critical Strikes into Deadly Arts.
With this build you heal roughly 600 health every second in stealth. You really don’t need toughness.

With the WvW bonus, 25 stacks of Bloodlust and Revealed Training trait, you’re pushing 3.2k power BEFORE Might.

This is only good for ganking people 1v1 and running for life. Also, you have roughly 1/3 chance to proc crit on backstab. DEADinNOtime. No chance of winning 1v2+ vs at least half-decent players. But kudos for good troll.

Given how often people cleanse cond in zergs and how easy it is to overwrite bleeding and other conds you’re much-much better off just going full PVT SP/SB and spamming cluster bombs or pistol whip.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV8al0Mp3plPx7J0PNBNh4d4vl1KQ3Hj2E-TFCEABJ8QAcS5HXKBVU9HJOCA5s/AAXAA30NQGAmJA-w
Swap runes/sigils for whatever you feel like.

Nimrud.5642:

Its not dependent on the thief class’ actual state, this whole nerf thing is dependent on how the community percieves thief OPness. Anet is a business looking to satisfy customer needs that translate into money. Therefore Anet does not give a kitty about the class’ actual state or how balanced is it at high-tier tpvp. They will balance things on medium level or even lower, and they will adhere to the public opinion about certain things. So if thieves are not OP but a significant part of the community think they are, thieves will get nerfed even if Anet knows the class is ok. Its all just math: thief buff—> only thieves are happy, thief nerf—> a lot more people are happy.

But dont get me wrong, its the same with every issue. Not only the thief class get this attitude. They serve customer needs, and only look for solutions that result in the most widespread satisfaction within the community.

So all in all: when it comes to issues like this, imho its pointless to try to argue along the lines of ‘game balance’ and ‘competitiveness’ and try to convince the devs to do this or that. Sure, they will do it IF(!) it gets/keeps customers. We – forum readers/writers – have a false view on the community. Many of the players havent read a single thread here, let alone writing one. The reasonable and detailed discussion that goes on between the ‘forumer’ community and the devs is just concealing their real attitude. They will make it look as if these were mostly technical issues and they are working on it, thats why you dont get your solution yet. But in fact, they will never fix that whatever that you complained about, rightfully or not.

And Anet is not even to blame for this, they do this to make money. Like everyone else who runs a business. I’m only saying this to prevent you from getting too lost in a reasonable arguement. Its pointless. No matter what a genius kitten you are or how good your ideas are, if little Joe/Jill/Jack is mad about your class, it will get nerfed.

my 2 cents

Also, the business system that they use in this game adds to what you have said. GW1 was Buy-2-Play whereas GW2 despite being, seemingly, Buy-2-Play as well, has Gem Store. You might argue that no one is forced to buy gems – indeed very true; I don’t buy gems myself and I know many people that don’t either. Yet, there’s a big group of players that purchase gems and they ‘demand’ nerfs just because they donate. ANET obviously caters for their rants because without them they would earn only 50% (as it were).
On the other hand, there’s a group of players (mainly ex-wow) that claim that gw2 is F2P because (!!!) you don’t have to pay monthly subscription. They believe that no one has a right to ask for content updates, balance etc. because there’s no monthly\quaterly fee.

Don’t get me wrong, I love GW2 but GW1 did lots of things a lot better, especially PvP. It was called Nerf Wars for a reason. Particular comp too strong? Fix/nerf in 2-3 days. They changed things frequently enough, though, that people had field to experiment after each patch. On the other hand, we had 6 months of cond meta followe by 4-5 months of hambow and decap eng. E-Sports not happening despite amazing take off in August 2012.

You can go with, literally, anything and kill 90% of people in WvW.
Your build is yet another variation of bread-and-butter x/30/30/x/x so there’s really no way you could go wrong with it. I would suggest trading V for VI in SA though. You don’t need that extra ini if you can manage your resources and VI is one of the best thief traits, imo.

In WvW:
well-played: med guard or sd eng
In PvP:
necro, some cond or sd engs, hambow (so ez in wvw), well played ele

As a matter of fact I would love to give up SA in WvW. However it’s impossible to fight any half-decent cond class without it; not to mention 1vX. If only Invigorating Precision was better we would be able to get some sick builds but atm SA is the only way to sustain yourself.

Imagine 10/30/0/0/30 Generosity+Purity SD/DP <3

TG is horrible imo – those guys have less hp and armour than 30/30/0/0/10 gc ele :P
Dagger Storm has some uses in PvE as well as in WvW raids.
However, I consider bask venom our best elite. It’d indeed really weak compared to several other skills (mesmer’s Magic Bullet, ele’s Shocking Aura) but at the end of the day it’s one more CC.
The major disadvantage about it, though, is that there too many ways of protecting yourself from it – random blind, aegis. With the aforementioned Magic Bullet, e.g., you can just AA and THEN use your cc.

I play 10/30/0/0/30 SD/SB with Lyssa Runes atm.
How does it compare to DP, imo? Let’s have a look at meta setups:
vs shatter mes – shortbow anyway
vs necro – shortbow anyway with melee set for finishing so no difference again
vs hambow – dp
vs cond war – sd
vs ele – sd
vs guard (especially dps ones) – sd
vs eng – shortbow anyway
vs other thieves – whoever is a better thief and has utilities/steal off cd

Why I play SD though, is because of the mobility and evasiveness in-combat that it offers. Also, DD eles are becoming fotm and I find DP to be too weak vs them.

PS Read my sig.

OP fails to notice several things. After CnD nerf people migrated from DD to DP because it offered a lot more utility for little to no loss in damage. You could have called DD a “burst set” prior to the abovementioned CnD nerf and Mug nerf but ever since then DP has been outclassing it in almost every way (DD is less ini-heavy). What you propose is to remove the core feature of D/X from DP that is Backstab. And before you come with that ‘stealth-from-utility’ garbage. SP/PP/SB are considered stealth-less sets for a reason.

Now speaking of the dark field itself. I mentioned it long ago in, what I believe was, Profession Balance – if ANET ever does thing as dumb as nerfing DP basing on WvW, let them at least do the following:
1) Keep the blinding pulses as they are.
2) Reduce smoke field duration so that you cannot HS multiple times but still benefit from the blind.
But again, following your idea will result in a bunch of SP and SD thieves spamming 3 for life and what is even worse – it will reduce the amount of effective tPvP specs.

On the side note, I play SD/PD in WvW and I don’t have problems with DP thieves. Black Powder is a short-sighted trap for a X/P user. I have seen top players get busted inside BP because they thought they were invincible inside it. DP roots you in a small area and makes you extremely predictable for the next 3 seconds. Take advantage of it. As a matter of fact I’ve finally, after 1,5 year, got into recording, so expect some clips (with DP thieves as well).
Cheers,
TJ

PS You can pm me here or in-game for some tips if you wish to.

Maugetarr.6823:

With the heartseeker combo, the damage applies before the end of the combo. With BPS, the damage seems to hit after the combo. Don’t know why, but thats just how it works. When people used to use unsuspecting foe with hammers, the +50% would always trigger before the damage hit when using earthshaker. Could just be coded in different orders so the effects of blast finishers apply before damage, and the effects of leap finishers apply after damage.

Was about to say the same so thanks there, random person from the internet. But OP got me thinking on sth. Blasting into fire field gives 3 stacks of might and deals some dmg to nearby enemies. Therefore using Blinding Powder inside that fire field with an enemy nearby should reveal you, shouldn’kitten Has anyone tested it?

EDIT: seriously anet? “shouldn ’ t it” into kitten.

If I can provoke my enemies to follow me no matter the cost I already count the fight as won. Breaking los and target is crucial as well as dynamic positioning in stealth. The only type of outnumbered fight that I give up on after 1-2 minutes ++ is when I see that my enemies pack up tight and wait for my move. Don’t you EVER fall for that. Distraction and surprise are your friends here.
Also, keep up pressure. As a matter of fact, I’ve made an experiment. For the last two days I was running without SA but 10/30/0/0/30 SD/DP. Most of the time people couldn’t keep up with damage that I dealt to them. 1v2 was completely manageable without heavy kitting while during 3<= I had to go occ several times. What I’m trying to say is that by playing aggressively and quickly you make your opponents panic and as follows leave them more room for error.

It has been repeated several times already, however there is no clear response from the devs or their opinion on it.

Since the patch introduced long ago, immobilize has been changed to stack in duration. I assume that everyone has been immobed for 5+ seconds without being able to counterplay it. What is more, there is no reliable way to cleanse because
a) several other conditions have higher cleanse-priority than immob
b) immob is applied several times for short durations on multiple skills (Entangle, Devourer Venom, Flurry(!)) rather than one longer (e.g. Dark Pact, Panic Strike).

Cond duration food makes it even more crazy, but this consumable has its own topic.

Let’s forget for a moment that immob stacking is too strong in its current state and focus on sth else. Immob prevents you from dodging which is completely fine, however it appears to work as an interrupt as well. I’ve been playing this game since release and it has been always intriguing me why e.g. Cloak and Dagger is interrupted by immob?
I’d like to hear what you think and let devs know that there’s sth to have a look at.
TJ

By using transformation tonics. The ‘cancel tonic’ skill is the same as healing skill and thus will trigger the rune effect. On the side note, when you go in-and-out of tonic form you will also proc on-swap sigils if they’re off cd. I wouldn’t get used to it, cause several people were reporting it already and it most likely will get fixed.

I’ve though that we had sorted this out already.
Larcenous Strike steals entire boon from the target e.g. 15 stacks of might for 14 seconds; 30 seconds of fury etc..
Bountiful Theft steals one stack of might for 3-5 seconds depending on boon duration; 3-5 seconds of fury etc..

To me OP means not exactly overpowered but being too effective for the amount of skill needed to pull it off.
Is MM Necro super-uber-unbeatable? – No. But it requires no skill whatsoever apart from running around and spamming skills off cds to be somewhat effective.
Is Spirit Ranger OP? – No. But all you do is run around and count on procs+evasion to outlast your foe. Compare to the amount of effort needed by e.g. a thief to beat it.
Full Dire P/D thief (WvW)? No. Lacks pressure and killing power vs decent people but it can be literally unkillable.
I would also include passive procs, regardless of the prof, that just are detrimental to the skill-factor in this game e.g. sigil of tormenting, incediary powder…
I could go on forever but I hope that Ive got my point across.

TL;DR Very strong specs and combos should require exceptional skill to use effecitvely and not be available to an average player.

I feel that playing thief requires more knowledge about what other classes can pull off than while playing sth else. It’s always a good idea to test out meta-specs and see how they work.

Apart from what Rome said I suggest to always try to surprise your opponent e.g. drop refuge and burst out of it instead of waiting for the stealth to stack.

There are also several tricks that include sheatting weapons. It’s obvious that good players will very often dodge your cnd+steal when they see it coming as an opener. What you can do is start cnd and when you notice them dodge sheath your set. You will save ini and your foe will lose one dodge.
Also, sometimes it’s a good idea to sheath your weapons and then swap. Your opponent will most likely have no clue that you’re using the other set and won’t expect for e.g. cluster bombs instead of shadow shot.
You can also use Infiltrator Strike and right before the hit connects swap weapons. You will close the gap, gain access to the second set but still be able to swap and use Inf Return if need be (mind you that it works only if you engage ooc).

I use them on a daily basis while roaming and dueling in OS/Windmill and sometimes in WvW. PM fi you need some help pulling them off.
Cheers,
TJ

PS Forward withdraw is boss.

You make it overcomplicated. This trait needs a fix not an alteration.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
It says “Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches a certain threshold.”
and as follows “Cancels any activation time when used.”
It’s blatantly obvious that Last Refuge does everything that BP but cancels the action. All they have to do is make it cancel current action.
No more mid-cnd stealths; mid-hs stealths, etc..
Cheers,
TJ

I’ve been using SD almost since release and almost all the time. And now some Sizer-wannabes come here and claim that everyone using SD is just copying him. Having such small margin of build personalisation it’s obvious that lots of people will come up with exactly the same spec.
10/30/0/0/30 SD/SB here and I am 100% certain that I have seen Caed play it and MToker as well.

We rant on /whisper everyday and somehow I didn’t make it to the clip. Shame on you
I really enjoyed your vid.
Karolis, come back to gw2 so I can pwn you two again <3

Sylvari thief

/15chars

Acro trickery S/D will be always good in 1v1, always. But for my taste you’re way too squishy. One landed burst and you’re dead which isn’t that much of a big deal during 1vX or even during small scale combat.

Fractal skin of choice in the final 40/40 chest would be perfect. Love the idea of the Fractal Track. You could even make access to this path less frequent to prevent people from farming skins.

Locuz.2651:

There are three problems:

- The MMR system places totally new and tournament level players in the same matches.
- The vast majority of the new players that enter pvp, enter with a mindset that they know everything allready.
- Veterans that see the same mistakes made over and over by these new players end up flaming them when they had enough.

All 3 of these issues need to be fixed.

I fully subscribe to this. I rage myself from time to time. But when you meet a D/D thief with Signet of Shadows 3 times in a row in your team. Well, it gets nasty.
Also, people don’t read the team chat nor watch the map. They cap home and it gets decapped behind their backs, literally.
There should be some design changes in this game that would educate new players, imo, e.g.
1) No access to solo/team q before r20-30.
2) No points for killing people in hotjoin – only ticks and objectives. Reasoning: atm people fight off points and chase instead of capping. Unfortunately, they bring these habits to queue.
3) The only chat that is visible during the soloq match is team chat.
4) Default builds should be close-to-meta specs and not e..g D/D P/P thief with soldier’s amy and thief’s runes.

I meant swapping gear for more damage oriented and not changes in defense itself :P

I have incorporated Sigil of Air and Runes of Strength into my build and must say that I hit very hard atm, no doubt. Just wonder if it’s people that got more glassy or the setup that packs a punch.

Troll of the week and if by any chance you ain’t one feel free to pwn me in PvP with that op combo. I will play the class that you pick for me. Just dont be so mean as to choose ele/necro as I almost never play them.
Kudos for making me burst into laugh.

Bazzoong.7145:

scabrous.7835:

0/6/6/2/0 is absolutely not ok. In fact no power spec is ok atm, sadly.

Ditch power, get percision. Trust me on that, try it, pecision beats power for thieves, it always has.

I am to lazy to explain why in detail, but if you got problems with doing not enough damage try it…

It absolutely doesn’t. Throw stats into an excel spreadsheet then add 100 power -> compute; substract and add precision -> compute. Power beats precision hands down no contest :P

I have no clue how it slipped through. We’ve been too focused on ferocity, apparently.
Last Refuge is still there and still screwing me all the time. It’s been year and a half of this nonsense.

I said it several weeks ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/thief-balance-changes/first#post3798485

0/6/6/2/0 is absolutely not ok. In fact no power spec is ok atm, sadly.

My experience so far:
several noob kills as vs those people nothing will ever change
I had to run away from 2 mediocre necros (dire/rabid probably) cause I was not able to do any dmg to them
one tanky hambow that just /dance -d there while I was poking him
dd thief and shatter mes that couldnt do anything to me and similarly I couldnt do anything to them.
Long story short, WvW is on the hook for me now unless I decide to play cond p/d. There’s absolutely no way to outdmg tankier players that play at decent level – not enough pressure from power specs.

TLDR; nubs will still cry but I wasnt able to kill anything tankier nor was killed by power specs.

is OP trolling? Go to gw2 wiki and see how damage is calculated.

You have SA based x/30/30/x/x, acro based x/30/0/30/x and trickery ones x/x/x/x30 that are you usually mixtures of the previous. However, you got me curious since there might be an usually well working gimmick like 0/20/30/0/20 or god-knows what.
I really encourage OP to get some info concerning that ‘sos created’ spec.

@mango
He has mentioned quickness on crit so at least 20 points in CS^^

Seems about right. I am more power oriented though. Glad to know that there’re some people that can mix-match armour well.

Give me power cause attack means nothing since you cannot calculate damage using that. Knowing these stats it would be nice to know others to get the the whole picture. Cheers!