Guild Wars 2

you know what the real solution to this bloodlust buff is?

make the bloodlust buff npc champs, siege damage, gate/wall hp and defenses for the server that holds the points.

this way, people that care about wvw points will have a reason to take and hold the points, without causing an imbalance of stats.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

And it also means that outnumbered servers will get their kitten wooped even harder which causes an imbalance. Didn’t you guys see what happened to other games? It’s going downhill with this game aswell if you add imbalances.

Stice.5204:

Malachi.1836:

Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based.

I don’t really understand why you’re throwing around “skill” as the highest ideal of WvW. People who roam around in large groups aren’t doing it to impress you. They’re doing it because it’s a well-rewarded activity in a game that, like most MMORPG’s, is all about pursuing incremental rewards as part of a large playerbase. They don’t care whether or not you approve of the skillfulness of their reward pursuit.

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

You hit the nail on the head. Those people are doing it for the reward, and that in itself is the problem. Pvp games used to be about just that THE PVP not the shiny rewards you get from running in massive blobs. Good games last not because they have incremental rewards but because they have a competitive system in place that keeps people coming back for more fights. Running in large groups so large that they make any form of combat simply 1 fests is boring and repetitive. sPVP and tPvp would be great if they only allowed for more customization, and open world combat.

But I waste time here, everyone who realizes that this game for PPT and siege is old hat already understands this

How about getting some WvW’rs involved in decisions as to the vision, the future of WvW. How about you TELL US, what your vision for WvW is. Are you afraid thakittens such a bad/kitten vision that is unwanted by the WvW guild communities all over that you are keeping it secret to milk the game for as long as you can?

Why can’t you tell us this vision?

I’m just watching some guildcast crap on twitch and it reminds me of listening to ANET devs. When they started talking about WvW, those PVERS knew nothing at all. Yet they are exactly the type of brainless, skill less scrubs that you “THINK” are your WvW player base.

Give up on Spvp – its badly done. Your true E-sport lies in your Guilds that do WvW competitively.

“The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.”

Out of touch bro, out of touch. Thanks for buffing zerging once again… Swap outmanned buff with bloodlust… atleast that would make more sense but no.

How long till bloodlust gets removed from WvW like orbs were for the exact same reason? or you going to wait till you lose a lot of WvW guilds and more servers die before you take note of your consumer playerbase? who are giving you a major heads up btw… but are ignored yet again and could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back in some cases. The communication with the WvW community as been pretty poor, its like having pver’s incharge of all player vs player decisions… buff ac’s, give buff to all stats to strongest population server, more supply drain for server with most numbers. Never fixing waypointing, way to encourage zerging.

I don’t want a bonus to my stats that gives me a unfair edge over my opposition… and I don’t want my enemy to have a stat boost to have a unfair edge over me bro… I want to win with teamwork and skills not gear and buffs mate or siege for that matter…

Another change that ANet is making which shows they have no idea on how to handle WvW.

They have some very questionable WvW game designers.

Shiren.9532:

For the supposed WvW elite you guys seem to have great difficulty comprehending the difference between a server wide buff that can be locked away in a fully upgraded keep stacked with siege and two gates to break down before you can get the orb or having to defend three points at all times with no defensive gates or walls, just terrain designed to raise the skill cap on combat.

There’s obviously a difference, never claimed it wasn’t. The effect from the stats increase however will be pretty much the same, and it’s bound to be in favor of the strongest (read: most populated) servers most of the time, leading to even more uneven match-ups, that’s basically settled before the weekend is over, thinking otherwise is just naive.

Shiren.9532:

I doubt it will turn the tide in battle for a losing server. What I expect it will do is it will give players something new and valuable to fight over. It will create new activities to do in WvW that will matter. Instead of having the option of joining the zerg, pointlessly roaming, scouting or flipping supply camps, you can now fight over the ruins. Open field combat, no walls or gates to knock down, lots of emphasis on terrain in combat and a guarantee that a zerg alone can’t replace you. The stat bonus from holding it means that you can feel like you are contributing to your server (honestly very few people will care about reduced damage from seige, especially on lower servers, a celestial buff is something most players can understand and care about).

I believe we both agree that the buff obviously needs to hold some kind of value for people to actually care about them, but I’m also under the impression that having a stats increase will make them slightly too meaningful, as holding them on all 3 borderlands will provide a significant amount of stats that will simply be far too game-changing for servers to not care about. This will again result in larger groups spending the majority of their time here, which again means that you can kiss your “roaming-paradise” farewell before it’s even began.

I really like the look of the new area, and definitely think it would be in a step in the right direction, I don’t mind the extra points you get for stomping, but what worries me is the mentioned stats increase, and I’d much rather see something like reduced siege damage instead, as it would still encourage people to care about the buff, but not too much. The very least they could do would be to drop the scaling of it between the borderlands, and instead just having it count towards the border your actually on.

Shiren.9532:

In addition to this, the ability to score points with stomps means that roamers will contribute more to their server.

I like this as well

Shiren.9532:

The orb buff and the ruins mechanic offers a lot of the WvW community. The fact that some other communities don’t like it doesn’t detract from its value to WvW.

This will certainly spice WvW up a bit, but again, if it’s made too meaningful I believe the actually concept behind it will be working against it’s cause. Secondary objects should remain secondary, and should not be seen as main objectives, if that makes any sense.

What other communities are you on about exactly? Because as far as I’m aware of I’m first and foremost a WvWer, I’ve played since early beta, and I’ve spent countless of hours raiding with my guild in WvW, on pretty much a daily basis. Just because I find enjoyment in the odd experience of having a GvG every once in awhile, to get away from what has become kind of tedious WvW’ing, doesn’t give you the right to belittle my opinions.

Shiren.9532:

The whining from the “GvG” community because their interests aren’t being placed ahead of WvW is getting really old.

I wouldn’t categorize most of it as whining, as believe it or not, there are actually people on here who has invested time and effort into this game and don’t want to see all that being wasted, without at least having shared their thoughts and letting their voices being heard on the matter. If anything I’d call that being passionate.

i saw a post somewhere where someone suggested making holding the temples confer a bonus to WvW players, since WvW players confer a bonus to PvE players.

i think these bloodlust points could have potential if they operated in such a manner. let them help pve players, and let the temples help WvW players. but don’t give them stat bonuses. magic find, gold find, karma gain and repair cost reduction only.

To add to your post, other good ideas given out already:
1) Faster / cheaper upgrades
2) More chance to drop siege blueprints
3) Extra supply carrying capacity
4) More supply carried by yaks

I’m really concerned about the stat buffs on the capture points as I hear people considering quitting the game if this is actually implemented this way. I’m not one of those people, but I see the dangers of such a buff. For example, in our current matchup we face far greater numbers very frequently, which is already more than enough of a challenge. Imagine how demoralizing it would be if 150 to every stat would be added on top of that, something a server with a lot of coverage will have no problem getting access to.

As I’ve suggested in another topic, instead of the stat buff to make the capture points relevant to WvW, why not add something like siege protection for every borderland you control enough points on? Maybe 10-15% reduction per borderland you control them on. As such they are very relevant to warfare in WvW, and they do not damage morale as badly as the raw boost to the enemy stats. It also adds strategic value to controlling the capture points, because you’ll want those before attacking a well defended keep. For the defenders, neutraling the capture points becomes important as well. Plus, it would not impact the GvG scene in any way, which would be very convenient for people who are interested in doing those (such as myself).

I’m repeating my idea here because I’d like to bring it to the attention of a dev (I feel a new topic has more of a chance for Devon seeing it), as I would very much like the stat buffs not to be added to the game. Not just for the sake for the GvGs, but for WvW in general especially considering buffs like that have been removed by devs in the past, the reason being that strong servers in one-sided matchups simply snowball their advantage even more.

(topics merged by a mod, this was originally intended as a new topic)

nothing.7941:

listen to your moist passionate fans.

I don’t think any of us quite that passionate, dude.

Devon, its quite obvious that you have no clue about what wvw needs. Your team`s relation and communication with the wvw community is horrible and people are leaving.
Nobody asked for this buff and the idea behind it its just wrong. You continue to encourage blobbing and now you guys make it worse by giving blobs even more advantages.
GG

Swamurabi.7890:

Coverage disparity between servers means that most matchups will have one server that would dominate anyway, also get stat buffs by having 3-5 more scouts. Something that would not make a difference.

Bloodlust is not the fix for night capping and server stacking. It just makes both worse.

Roe.3679:

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

That’s all well and good, but these buffs will benefit those with more numbers, making the strong stronger. That’s the biggest issue with the stat buffs.

Tellerion.8102:

Habib Loew.6239:

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back.

There you have it.

(Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Orbs-will-be-removed-from-WvW-in-an-upcoming-build/first#post608170)

These are my biggest issues with this change. You have completely ignored one of the largest complaints which is that there is an imbalance in coverage and population – and now you add this change which does nothing but make the strong stronger. I’m not really sure how you can ignore the problem like this? Making it worse is actually proof positive that you’re not listening.

I will admit that the actual gameplay may make a significant difference in how I’m thinking; I will keep an open mind until I see it action. It may be that small teams of 10-15 may be able to keep this playable: they may be able to negate the whole “making the strong stronger” thing. If they are mobile, cooridinated, and dedicated to keeping the new capture points in flux, a small team (instead of a zerg) may make a difference. We’ll have to see.

And as for the unofficial GvG in this area – you guys may as well forget that happening. The whole point-for-stomp thing is enough of a factor that you couldn’t keep dedicated groups of PPT’ers from interrupting every skirmish you try to coordinate in that area. In other words – it would’t work for your GvG tournaments.

They need to just open up an SPvP type system where you can have up to 30 members of each team on a small, open map, one without capture points or structured goals of any kind. This should provide the play area you need in order to continue playing the game the way you like, which I wholeheartedly support. They already have the foundation for such an offering in the SPvP system – they need only expand on it a little.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

Wait let me get this right, providing boosts like %WXP dont have impact in the fights against other sides, so to reflect this, arenanet have since day 1 made the outmanned buff a buff which improves exp, karma gain and magic find.

So by your logic, a server who is outnumbered deserves no boosts to their combat ability. But when a server outnumbers an enemy, such that they may hold these locations as well as their structures, they deserve additional stats as well.

Here is whakittenink. I think you genuinely have no idea what or why you do things. After every idea you come up with, you make a post announcement justification for why it is the way it is. Even if it is contrary to the entire ethos of the development towards wvw so far.

Orbs were removed because of stat boosts. Outmanned buff doesnt even give stat boost. But you figure the more populated servers should have stat boosts. Is that really the truth?

To me its just laziness, you dont have the creativity or the man power to code something interesting for the buff, so you add a generic stat buff, something you already have code for, and just present it as “MAJOR WVW UPDATE” to fool everybody.

No comment. I miss the GW1 developers.

There are actually guilds considering leaving the game because of this. Not because of the stats effect but the lack of understanding or engagement from the developers with regards to this issue.

It is true they told us we could expect a return of an orb-like mechanic in the future, but that generally seemed to imply it would only return after both major problems of the orb mechanic were solved.

The two major problems with orbs is that they were cheater-bait and that they made it even more difficult for overmatched servers to try and fight back. Replacing the stealable orbs with static capture points in the middle of the map solves the first problem but does not address the second one.

Ever since Arenanet changed how matchmaking works my server (Fort Aspenwood) hasn’t had a single competitive matchup. We’ve had a weeks where we were completely overmatched and got dropped down to under 50 ppt at certain times of the day and we’ve had other weeks where the opposite happened and we sit at over 500 most of the time, but there has not been a properly competitive matchup since Anet broke up the established “tiers” that used to exist.

This means that, at any time since the matchmaking change, the addition of a capturable stat buff to the borderlands maps would have been a disaster. The team with 500+ PPT would obviously own the buff in all three maps just like they own almost everything else and their players, who are already winning most of their fights thanks to overwhelming numerical advantages, would become even harder to fight, even if you managed to isolate a smaller group of them.

We already know the upcoming league seasons for North America are going to match servers against each other that are as much as 12 places apart on the ranking table. Those servers are already going to be at an extreme disadvantage during the week due to numbers alone. Now they’ll be severely outnumbered and facing the stat equivalent of wearing masterwork gear against enemies in exotics.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

Are you aware about nightcapping? Do you have plans to merge servers? With WvWvW being a 24/7 gamemode and with such vast differences in coverage between tiers its practically irrational to assume that all servers can queue full maps 24/7. There are alternatives to stat boosts that add more layered strategical mechanics to WvW such as some of the suggestions mentioned in other thread for e.g. upgrades going faster, giving siege invulnerability etc all these are mechanical aspects that PROMOTE teamwork and coordination and don’t mess up the balance that a straight up stat boosts would do.

Personally, I think the bloodlust (horrible name btw since that prefers to power in the game) should do the following:

1. Double wxp gained while the buff is active
2. Double karma gained while the buff is active
3. Double magic find while the buff is active
4. Double points earned while the buff is active

Of those, 4 is really the most exciting. It means that a server that is behind could focus on holding the buff in order to help with a comeback.

For the last time people the mechanics introduced will not break up zergballs. Those inviduals who still find safety in numbers will still do so even with the spread capture points.

Why do people think that an introduction of spvp style capture points will somehow invalidate the other ingrained mechanisms of wvw that promote zergplay? Will these new capture pts somehow remove commander doritos and force people to evenly spread out? Please. You’re being foolish. This isn’t a gvg issue it is entirely a balance one. No server that is outnumbered will have the numbers or coverage to hold these points from larger populated servers. That is a pipe dream.

All this will do will increase scouts from 0. To 3-5. That’s it. Congrats.

No to statbuff on bloodlust. Yes to 11% siege reduction and ppt per stomp per buff. Stats on outnumbered

Habib Loew.6239:

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back.

I miss Habib. He removed culling and understood the community.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

A buff to siege damage would have the same effect, and there is also a multitude of other options that would make a valuable buff, but instead you picked a type of buff that is absolutely hated by a very good amount, if not most, of the PvPers in this game. Please, explain to us the thought process behind that decision.

Yep.

And one other thing that is forgotten is that Arrow Carts used to be buffed early in Beta, until they were nerfed by BWE 2 or 3 for exactly the reasons people complain about them now.

As has been said, current design choices appear to show a poor understanding of WvW as it is actually played, or even the history of past design choices.

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back.

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back.

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back.

So this is Habib’s reasoning for removing orb’s from WvW a while back ago:

Habib Loew.6239:

After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back. In addition, the current implementation seems to be irresistible to hackers/cheaters and will require significant modification to prevent cheaters from having an unfortunately large impact on the state of any given WvW game. Under the circumstances we believe that removing orbs completely is a better choice than attempting an in-place redesign/re-implementation as it will immediately put a stop to all orb hacking. It is likely that orbs, or some orb-like mechanic, will return at some point in the future, but only after we are confident that they will not exhibit the sorts of issues that we see with orbs today.

That’s right, it’s going to be deja kittening vu, while the way of getting it will be different the issue that’s described in the bolded part will very much be the same.

Or am I missing something?

If you want the buff to make an impact on WvW warfare in general, why not make it so you take 15% less damage from siege for each 3 capture points you control? Siege Wars are bad enough with tons of people hiding inside their keeps and towers rather than coming out to fight. Plus, it would make these points very valuable to take before attacking the more important objectives, like well defended fortified keeps.

Wow….. sooo out of touch with the WvW community.
well might as well enjoy wvw while its still good.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

You could have made it easily in a way that the buff is contributing to points or points gain. The fact that you made it a stat buff proves that you did not learn from the orb´s . Very unfortunate that anet is so resistant to learn from previous failures.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

By “controversial” do you mean “universally opposed”?