Guild Wars 2

tigirius.9014:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Equal burst potential =/= balance?

Uh yeah it does, it’s called all classes can spec to do the same things. That’s balance. Just because people who solely play one single class or maybe play the only two that can burst instakill disagrees doesn’t make it any less true.

Oh forum debates…that’s a good point: all professions could theoretically be equally as good at everything.

For example, guardians could have the same burst potential as warriors, but then they could nerf the guardian’s survivability/support down to the level of the warrior. But I think you see where that would lead.

Yes, those who play warrior or thief usually defend their professions, but I’m not one of them. My engineer is my only lvl 80 in PvE and I have over 90% of my tournament/PvP matches on engineer. That’s because I like playing engineer.

In all of this, I’m not claiming that the engineer profession doesn’t have major problems, or that everything is perfectly balanced. Engineer is not the best profession right now, or second-best. Hopefully someday there won’t BE a best profession. I want engineer to get fixes, but I don’t agree that that means making engineers like other professions.

Alastar.2863:

What I would like to ask the people who say they quit is this:

You complain about Gear treadmills and Grinding and the Ascended Gear,
Can you name ANY mmo that has less of a “Grind” then this game?
Can you name Any mmo that has an easier Gear Treadmill?
Can you name Any mmo that has absolutely NO issues with one weapon being superior over another? (outside of Eve Online [I think.] or Battlestar Galactica online.)

Yes too all Guildwars 1, the first game was great. Was it a MMO yep.

Gotta say i haven’t quit yet but the lack of solo, casual play with great loot drops is making the game stale as, dungeons are not worth the time anymore and all i ever hear and see is FotM and Ascended, both of which can go the way of the dinosaur in my opinion, terrible ideas badly implemented. Go back to your roots Guildwars 2.. not look to WoW grinders for inspiration please.

I predicted, 3 years ago, that GW1 would become Nostalgia and peoples would come back to it. It may very well happen, a move back to GW1 from GW2 if NCsoft doesn’t fix it. Grinding events does not equal fun. Why is Frostgorge Sound dragon event fun to play and Cursed Shores and Malchor so bad? It must have been done by 2 different teams.
There seem to be a group of managers that are convinced that grinding events is the most exciting thing to do and that mindless repeats at a breathtaking rate is a great thing. They are wrong, a large number of peoples just want to have fun, not grind all day long. I see the febrility, in Frostgorge, “When is the dragon going to appear?” I never saw that at one of the temples. Conquer it and it is overrun in less then a minute. That is certainly not something that gives a sense of accomplishment. I remember the big ANet honchos talking about the sense of accomplishment, well they certainly are off the mark on that. The feeling is more about all your hard work being done for nothing. But then, who cares, in the big box, they have their own agenda and it is not about fixing what is wrong but about bringing useless new content like those fractals, more grinding for the little peoples……….. Sad but, true.

Frost gorge is fun. Orr zones stink. Save the lore wise talk. Good luck doing any of the temples anymore with the majority of remaing players spamming for fractals.

Let’s get this outta the way right off the top: tedious is not synonymous with challenging. That’s a conflation a lot of gamer folk seem to routinely make.

I experienced a high level of tedium while trying to navigate Orr. Which is to say not play in Orr, but move around in Orr and get to the parts I actually wanted to play in.

I didn’t find the challenge of the zones to be all that extreme. But getting anywhere was a footslog. It was not remotely enjoyable in most cases, which is key.

Teaming with others mitigated but did not negate this issue. One is able to move through the terrain quicker with a party, but the tedious process of doing so is still there. Also, the mob density tends to put a harsher light on existing mechanical/system bugs/shortcomings. Such as, for example, the clunkiness of targeting, and the number of problems and bugs associated with underwater combat.

I found the design of Malchor’s Leap to be particularly poor. Many elements of its layout seem to have no purpose other than to waste a player’s time. That’s bad. Also, there are holes in its geometry, nonsensical placement of invisible barriers, and many spots where the terrain just seems slapdash. In short, it’s not hard to get stuck in the zone… which is also bad.

Cursed Shore, on the other hand, is, I think, the least offensive. One can get around a lot of places by being cautious and sneaky. I happen to like that, and I believe it’s the way all three zones should’ve been developed from the start.

Make situational and environmental awareness matter; create “invisible” paths of cover and concealment throughout the landscape, that no one will find unless they’re paying attention. ’Cuz that would actually be a challenge. Not unlike a giant puzzle.

Cursed Shore seems to have the lion’s share of this, with the Straits making up the difference (the Leap just appears to have a spawnpoint shoved in every nook and cranny), but I don’t have the sense that this dynamic was ever a concerted design effort.

I’d like to see the zones tweaked in this direction, and future “hazard area” zones of this type created with “giant navigational puzzle” in mind. The world is supposed to be immersive. Making terrain matter in this way would contribute to that, as well as appeal to the tactically-minded. It’d also make exploration matter. Players attracted to that sort of thing (raises hand) could end up as guides.

I understand the concept underpinning Orr, that it’s a “warzone”, that it’s supposed to be hazardous. But I believe it’s possible to evoke such an atmosphere in a zone without it having to be a chore to explore it.

I’ve now completed the Orr zones, and I don’t have any particular inclination to go back to them. I’m not alone in this. I do think that’s a problem that should be avoided in the long-term, if not addressed in the short-term.

I’d be ok with the difficulty if there was a good enough reason enough to go there that there were actually other players in the zone.

This is really the fault of two things: FotM and lack of DEs.

I didn’t complete the monthly in November because it required dungeon runs and fractals, personally I don’t have a problem with my not doing it because there are those that don’t do the WvW aspect of the monthly, along with the fact that the monthly seems to be aimed at encouraging people to participate in aspects of the game that could have low participation.

HOWEVER, it’d be nice if ANet gave us an option to complete x out of y monthly objectives rather that having it restricted to 4/4 preset objectives… and x/y total would fit in with their whole “play the way you want and do the things you want to do” vibe.

[Edit]: It doesn’t matter if it’s easy, I got my 50 WvW kills in 1.5 hours this morning, but I don’t expect other people to get them that fast, nor do I expect people to do it at all as not everyone likes WvW. In essence it’s not about it being easy or difficult it’s about the fact that we HAVE to do it to get the monthly rewards, as far as I’m concerned (these days) nothing is worse in a game than forced participation.

Please remove WvW kills from the monthly then. Not interested in doing it.

You don’t HAVE to do the monthly.

My mother always warns me about putting things off until the last day…

So I spend most of my time in Divinity’s Reach, mainly for crafting because it’s really easy to go from Market NPC to Crafting section.

One thing I’ve noticed…. and I’m sure many of you have as well.

The constant “sexual” moans.

Anet, you trolling? I was playing with the volume pretty loud and my partner came in and assumed I was upto something dodge.. lmao.

So yeah, what gives eh? :P

Traherne would make perfect fire wood for Tybalt’s Return celebration

I would like to see a quest where we are given the opportunity to sacrifice an NPC in order to resurrect our mentor. I’d tear out Trahearne’s heart with my bear hands on top of an Aztec pyramid wearing nothing but an ostritch-feather speedo just to bring back Tybalt.

I think Trehearne wouldn’t be as bad with just some tweaks. The big one would be re-record his lines and include the instructions “Don’t sound like a robot”.

But even just things like making him stronger in fights would help, since then PCs wouldn’t have to keep rescuing him. Oh NPCs, why do you have to die all the time?

Draven.7210:

Know what I heard? I’ll sum it up like this. He spent countless hours grinding out gear in GW1, and only for fashion since the only difference was the looks, but he’s against grinding the ascended gear for a stat increase.

How does this make sense? It’s ok to grind out trivial things to him like the look of the armor, titles and emotes to unlock in games but not for a stat increase? Sounds incredibly selfish to me.

Let’s take the following situation.

In GW1, I want an obsidian armour. That will take 105 ectos and 105 shards. I am a casual player and can only play 30 minutes each day. In time I can get either 1 ecto or 2 shards (either as drop or buying with the gold I get by playing).

So, it will take me 150+ days to get my materials together (as I also will need the rest of the materials and money, and if I keep at it continually). But it doesn’t matter if it takes me half a year, or two years, because I know, once I have the materials together, I will have an armour that will still be the max available, forever.

Now, in GW2, I want that expensive exotic armour. It has the highest stats, which is what I want. It will take me (with my casual play time) also 150+ days. But, in this case, will the armour still be the max when I finally have the materials together to get it? The way it is now, the answer will be “No”. I will have to start all over again to get the new max and am “forced” to farm again for the (new) required materials.

And that is something most people are worried about, when they’re talking about increasing the stats. The stuff you’ve been working on for so long will be outdated at some point. And, at least for me, that isn’t a comforting thought.

I rather find it selfish if somebody demand a stat increase because he want something to grind for…

Several days of looking at the game in various places online tells me that i had a good rounded view of exactly what the game was short of playing it – so rather than kittening at me for ‘not understanding the USP’ – how about we turn it around and say that Anet did a questionable job of making their approach clear – and i have a multitude of proffessional gamer journalists, saying no more power creep/vertical progression that back me up – you know – those same journalists that were given the heads up on the game direct from Anet and invited to play and ask questions so that they would produce positive reviews.

But by all means make pithy put down statements where you wallow in your own sense of superiority – it just reminds me how much the community has changed here – i almost feel at home having come from Wow

Bluebird.1890:

Narkosys.5173:

If that were the case then legendaries should have just been skins and not stats.
They should have clearly stated that they will go wow lite and add a huge grind and say that lengendaries are mandatory because they will always be BiS. That way you never have to grind weapons again.
This game was marketed to the casuals because of the low grind availability of top tier gear.As of right now there is 1 way to get that gear and is 1 hell of a grind.

Now if you go back and see the material you will notice that most people got the impression of no stat increase because the devs directly inferred it and that the gear grind was minimal. This was a major selling point for them and many fan sites touted this.

At the very least this is disingenuous not to state that VertProg will always be a persistent factor.
Also they should have changed the name as this game goes against the fundamental principles of the original and should have not been used as a marketing tool so that no misconceptions could be made.

As of right now they are trying to appeal to everyone and in the end appeal to no one. Clear vision and road map would help with any further miscommunications.

They appeal to me, and plenty of other people, who like the presence of both sides of the coin, in more moderation than is typically presented in modern triple A MMOs.

Please do not speak for us.

Bluebird, can a toss of the coin be both heads and tails at the same time? If they go with vertical progression, we all will need to hop on the treadmill. It doesn’t matter where they put the treadmill (dungeons, open world, crafting, etc.); if you want to “progress” you will need to hop on the treadmill. No one will get out of the requirement to participate in the treadmill.

I played WoW for years and came to GW2 because they promised a different kind of MMO without a gear grind or treadmill. It’s a tired element of game design that is easy to develop and satisfies only one class of player. Remember, you don’t get the coin, you get heads or tails.

But, let’s look closer at the nature of the treadmill. Before the new tier is introduced all players are at power X as are the mobs. Then a new tier is introduced and everyone hops on the treadmill. When everyone hops off they are now all at power Y and the mobs have assumed power Y. There is no progression as there has been no change in the relative power of players and environment. This is why it’s called a treadmill. It’s just tedious work to arrive at the place you were before the treadmill. You have in fact made no progress whatsoever.

Smart players more and more see that vertical progression does not offer progression of any kind. They have seen the Emperor and he is naked. They’ve seen the Wizard and he’s just an old man behind a curtain. This was the promise of GW2. It was marketed as a different kind of MMO and specifically an MMO without a gear grind. The game didn’t follow through on the promises and people are disappointed. BTW, they are also smart enough to know that they are not going to get both sides of coin. The coins been tossed and those who bought GW2 and wanted to change it back to a tired, old formula won. You got your grinder so rejoice. Just don’t be surprised that people are disappointed with the departure from the promises.

Tolmos.8395:

“Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

This. In the Manifesto they are speaking to people who understand vertical progression (treadmills) and horizontal progression. With vertical progression the gear grind is preparing to have fun while grinding for a future fun reward. But, I agree that you would have to understand what they are talking about to get “no vertical progression” out of the Manifesto. Their problem now is that a lot of us understood what they were saying, just as they understood what the said at the time, and are disappointed that they could so cavalierly jettison the design philosophy and promises they made.

If that were the case then legendaries should have just been skins and not stats.
They should have clearly stated that they will go wow lite and add a huge grind and say that lengendaries are mandatory because they will always be BiS. That way you never have to grind weapons again.
This game was marketed to the casuals because of the low grind availability of top tier gear.As of right now there is 1 way to get that gear and is 1 hell of a grind.

Now if you go back and see the material you will notice that most people got the impression of no stat increase because the devs directly inferred it and that the gear grind was minimal. This was a major selling point for them and many fan sites touted this.

At the very least this is disingenuous not to state that VertProg will always be a persistent factor.
Also they should have changed the name as this game goes against the fundamental principles of the original and should have not been used as a marketing tool so that no misconceptions could be made.

As of right now they are trying to appeal to everyone and in the end appeal to no one. Clear vision and road map would help with any further miscommunications.

Pro’s run past as much as possible.

You need to stop playing GW2 and L2P GW2: Dungeon Runner.

Run from as much as you can whenever possible. Totally the way these dungeons are intended to be run, rest assured!

Learn to run. Then you, too, can be a leet dood.

This thread was brought to you by pro gear grinders.

That same group of people has made the world of Tyria seem more empty than ever after the new dungeon was released, but no the dungeon is a great success and the game is more lively than ever according to them. Get out of Lion’s Arch for once please.

I don’t care if I’m the only person in the whole game who hates dungeon grinds, it doesn’t mean a thing to me. What matters is how I feel about it. I despise these changes and not only has it made me determined to spend no more money on this game, it makes me determined to spend no more on any MMOs. They all turn out like this in the end. It’s all about gear cliques.

Jski.6180:

Cant ppl be doing it for both fun and items?

This game provided a means for people who wanted items for their prestige to get them.

Arah was/is a PITA.

People who wanted the “worship me” factor could farm and wear Arah skins.

Providing a difficulty curve WITHOUT a way to cheese it with stats *cough*agonyresist*cough* and associating a specific visual skin with each higher difficulty area provides this factor for people who want it.

There is no good reason at all to kill the rest of the game by associating the best loot in the game with the most cumbersome violation of the core tenet of “rewarding cooperation” in MMO history that is Fractals.

Fractals seem purposely designed to fragment the people who desire to run them. The different levels and the fact that item rewards increase as you traverse them means people are rewarded for leaving their fellow players behind.

Shackle people to Fractals by requiring you run them as the sole source for the game’s best gear, and you end up exacerbating this behavior, as you have people who don’t want to be there trying their best to “speed the process up” by only accepting people who can help carry them.

Natural.7013:

With all the vocal minority inundating the forums, it was no surprise that Whiteside coined the Fotm, event and new content a success. These forums were slammed with the same few thousand people complaining about the new gear and dungeon. Yet, the proof will be in the pudding in the end. MMO companies use metrics to help determine direction and a great many things about how they will move forward in their game.

Sure, they listen to feedback, but they also put alot of stock into the actions of players. If they see a good turnout in the dungeons on a daily basis, keep concurrency consistent and people wearing the new items by the hundreds of thousands, then it is definitely a success.

People that claim the forum spam is the majority could in fact really be in the minority by a large margin. We will never really know since MMO companies usually don’t reveal the metrics/data they keep.

Personally, I think they saw a huge population in exotic gear at 80 with little to do and average concurrency going south. The game is ultra simplistic and caters to casuals more than most MMOs. Your not in your GW1 Tyria anymore either. If this is to be a true mmorpg, then they are likely watching their metrics on a weekly basis and holding meetings to debrief the data…that data must show people were in need of Ascended gear and dungeons worth doing and reasons to log in.

This is a boatload of crap and you know it.

Let’s move the Ascended gear to all the known sources for exotics and see if FotM has more than a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

When FOTM ceases to be the ONLY source for the best gear in the game, THEN we can start to get true metrics on it.

As it stands now, all FOTM is doing is killing the rest of the game and encouraging incredibly bad behavior as it fragments the community.

IonicBlaze.7948:

You wanted “longterm-goals”, now go for it. Happy grind!

Agreed.

It’s not the ascended requirements that are unreasonable, it’s the presence of these items at all.

I’m not playing the game at the moment, this isn’t some sort of entitlement thread. I’m just pointing something out because I noticed people were talking about all zones being dead, which of course contrasts with the early stages of the game in which everyone was leveling and helping each other out in events.

These group events are a good thing. They are optional and easy to join or leave without causing dreadful harm to a group because there are so many people around you.

You fixed Plinx. That’s a good thing. No, seriously, it is. But for example, introducing Fractals just shifted the problem from one end to another.

There should be greater rewards for hanging around leveling zones.

Dynamic events like outdoors bosses should pop up more often and yield greater rewards so that maxed level characters feel like it’s worth their time to roam around looking for them. If the net profit of sitting in town repeating LFG over and over again is similar to that of someone who takes the time to go around the world scavenging for group events, then people will most likely do what’s more engaging and less mind-numbing.

It will engage your players in social interaction again and make the journey towards gearing up more entertaining. And it will breathe new life into the leveling zones for newcomers, preventing them from abandoning the game early on through fear of sinking their time into another ghost town MMO.

I know this used to be your design philosophy, and despite other decisions you’ve made recently that I strongly, strongly disapprove of, I doubt that things on this front have changed. Remember people respond much better to positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. Equalize rewards by making it more appealing to go explore. Enough to truly get people out of LA and into the world. If you your changes are marginal nothing will change because each of these events is too dependent on multiple people attempting to accomplish one goal. You have to make it good enough for everyone to be interested in it.

This could easily apply to every other aspect of the game, from crafting and even to pvp. I know this is what you intended to do in the first place. So don’t give up.

they manufactured a gap where one didn’t exist as an excuse to create a gear grind.

Indeed, “the gap” was fabricated by the latest patch to provide the ++numbernumber grinders something to “earn” through their “hard work”.

There wasn’t a gap to bridge, actually. Exotics and Legendary shared the same stats—no gap. Legendary was in the game to provide a heroic feat that heroic heroes could accomplish to distinguish themselves. All the distinctions in the game in terms of gear were cosmetic they didn’t cause the problem of power creep which the Ascended gear does. The problem with the Ascended is that they actually. really create a gap between players, that wasn’t there, that affects how they will be able to play the game. Please don’t think this can be justified by reference to degree of power creep. Power creep creeps; that is its nature.