Guild Wars 2

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

when describing what is optimal and often needed to make up for a classes weaknesses choice is merely and illusion. there’s a reason most elementalist run D/D and ALL cantirps.

You’re right because optimal = the best. There can only be one best option. That isn’t the issue here.

what im trying to say is that revenant is kind of full up on every skill slot. the revenant has just as many skills as any other profession in fact in some areas more. Revs have 5 heals and 5 elites as well as 15 utility skills asking for more from a balance perspective doesn’t really make sense.

The count of skills available in combat is also not the issue here. Revs only have 6 possible combinations to build the right half of their skill bar outside elite spec. That’s really low.

“Revenant as a whole is designed to not have much condition cleanse. That’s not to say there won’t be any tweaks for removal, but it won’t be any large changes. can’t have everything.” this is a quote Roy i thought you should see. Revenant has enough skills PERIOD….I understand your desire to see a skill bar thats has more wiggle room and diversity but considering both the design of Revenant legends and the total skill ratio other classes have in comparison to the Revenant it simply does not add to balance or make sense design wise to give us more utility options than we already have.

Okay, don’t get hung up on what the extra utilities are they don’t have to be condi removal. It would just be nice to have more flexibility.

Apparently this is like politics and religion and neither side is going to agree with the other. That’s fine with me, I think it would be a valuable addition to the Revenant and you don’t.

Griffith.7238:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

No I think you’re missing the point. That is the trade-off what other class gets 2 sets of utilities accessible in combat? You don’t get that kinda benefit without drawbacks. What would be the point of Legends if we could just swap all our kitten out anyway. You’re asking for each Legend to have more utilities to choose from which in the end would be pointless because there would be 3 that are optimal and the same 3 would get chosen. It is no different then any other class.

It sounds as if you’re suggesting that while other professions may have preferred “optimal” utilities, they don’t swap out their utility skills according the situation. In my experience this is simply not true and Revenant does not have that option.

Not sure where you got the number 6 from ,but there are 10 total combinations of Legends you can use.

Yes Revs can its called swapping out for a different Legend.

The comparison I continue to see is “other professions get 20 skills”, that would be without the elite spec so I am comparing to Rev without elite spec. 4 Legends can only combine 6 ways.

Griffith.7238:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

No I think you’re missing the point. That is the trade-off what other class gets 2 sets of utilities accessible in combat? You don’t get that kinda benefit without drawbacks. What would be the point of Legends if we could just swap all our kitten out anyway. You’re asking for each Legend to have more utilities to choose from which in the end would be pointless because there would be 3 that are optimal and the same 3 would get chosen. It is no different then any other class.

It sounds as if you’re suggesting that while other professions may have preferred “optimal” utilities, they don’t swap out their utility skills according the situation. In my experience this is simply not true and Revenant does not have that option.

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

when describing what is optimal and often needed to make up for a classes weaknesses choice is merely and illusion. there’s a reason most elementalist run D/D and ALL cantirps.

You’re right because optimal = the best. There can only be one best option. That isn’t the issue here.

what im trying to say is that revenant is kind of full up on every skill slot. the revenant has just as many skills as any other profession in fact in some areas more. Revs have 5 heals and 5 elites as well as 15 utility skills asking for more from a balance perspective doesn’t really make sense.

The count of skills available in combat is also not the issue here. Revs only have 6 possible combinations to build the right half of their skill bar outside elite spec. That’s really low.

Deth.4109:

Adamantium.3682:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

when describing what is optimal and often needed to make up for a classes weaknesses choice is merely and illusion. there’s a reason most elementalist run D/D and ALL cantirps.

You’re right because optimal = the best. There can only be one best option. That isn’t the issue here.

I don’t expect a choice of healing and elite skills, not at launch at least. Maybe something way down the line. The Legends seem to be built around their elites, choosing a different one probably won’t work very well.

I would like to see 1 heal, 6 utilities, 1 elite for each Legend and that would be absolutely perfect to me. 5 utilities would be the minimum that I think they should do.

It allows each Legend to get a condi removal. Shiro to get some more assassin and/or defensive options. Jalis some buffs. Ventari something to deal damage, or more types of active healing if Ventari is still against doing any damage whatsoever. Mallyx can get some decent condi generation. Glint has any number of possibilities.

I’m not too optimistic this will happen with the silence there has been on the topic and how we’re a few months from release at this point, but I really hope they make it a priority.

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

I don’t mean to make you lul so hard again, but you’re missing the point. They chose those skills as you said. Revs get to only choose 2 skills out of 4 essentially, the Legends. Everything after that is predetermined. There’s only 6 possible combinations outside of elite spec. When you look at it that way the problem is much more apparent.

Rym.1469:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Facets deactivate by running out of energy, using the active skill or invoking a new legend. Switching legends does not cancel facet of nature though, since it is not tied to legendary dragon stance.

Then please add F3 which would cancel all facets.

Without this option, there won’t be much decision-making, timing or energy management – if you press wrong button, you’re pretty much screwed and forced out of Legend/forced to misplay.

This really has to be dealt with ASAP.

The “wrong button” argument is a non starter for me. That’s sort of weak and is true for everything.

What you’ve described is exactly why there is decision making. You decide if it’s worth the passive effect for a few seconds to put the whole skill on cooldown when you burst. Or change Legends. Or let the energy drain instead.

This is the opposite of no decision making. Every time you use a facet you make more decisions about how you’re using it than a normal “fire and forget” skill.

Black Box.9312:

Rym.1469:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Facets deactivate by running out of energy, using the active skill or invoking a new legend. Switching legends does not cancel facet of nature though, since it is not tied to legendary dragon stance.

Then please add F3 which would cancel all facets.

Without this option, there won’t be much decision-making, timing or energy management – if you press wrong button, you’re pretty much screwed and forced out of Legend/forced to misplay.

This really has to be dealt with ASAP.

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with this. I’d hate to have to put the elite facet on its full cooldown just because I needed 3s of protection to mitigate a burst. Slapping on an F3 command to cancel active facets without putting them on the active skill cooldown would go a long way. If it helps, maybe add an initial energy cost or shorter cooldown to the base facet to prevent spamming, but I definitely would prefer to be able to deactivate them without wasting the active skill in a situation where I wouldn’t need it.

Edit: The censor is so sensitive that I can’t even use the numeric value for the elite facet’s active cooldown. >_>

I think adding F3 to cancel all facets is a “cop out” (not the perfect term but it works). It lets you have the best of both worlds, you could use the passive whenever you want for no cooldown. This is exactly the opposite of how this Legend was presented and intended for use.

It’s not that these are bad ideas in and of themselves, it’s just contrary to everything previewed about how Glint is intended to play.

This is another reason why Revs need another 1-3 utilities to choose from for each Legend. One of those should be some sort of condi cleanse. This way you give the Revenant flexibility while still being relatively weak to conditions. At most they would then have two condi removals (one in each Legend) plus the Jalis heal, and that’s if you choose to slot all available condi removal. With one always being gated behind a Legend and energy cost being the limiting factor that it is now I still think this puts Revs very high on the “weak to condi” list. Glint notwithstanding, Revs don’t have great condi removal in traits. Even Engis, who are pretty weak to condis just in their skills, can can some pretty decent removal with the right traits.

I guess to answer your question, I think yes we do need condi removal on Glint. However I don’t think this really solves much of that problem by itself.

Anything to actively gain energy is a plus in my book. It would make energy management a little more exciting and skillful.

Kidel.2057:

I think they just need to make current utility skills perfect so we don’t need to change them.

I’m glad you said this, because this is EXACTLY what they need to do.

The problem is that that is impossible. That’s a good thing! This would be a really boring game if they could give each Legend 3 perfect skills that never needed to change. Luckily the game is not that boring and for the past 3 years the other 8 professions each choose their utilities for their specific situation and preference.

Heck it’s right there in the name: “utility”. Revenants need to have utility.

This is not a mystery, the problem is how much it takes to do it and the potential downsides. You can get in combat from hitting something far away, or in PvP get jumped with no energy and key skills on CD.

That’s not to mention the “quality” of those blast finishers. For hammer #3 you can’t move and hammer #5 takes so long you can’t really move much or you’ll be out of range of the field.

It would be nice if the Dwarf Road gave pulsing swiftness, it is a road afterall!

slayert.5904:

Zev.3407:

Roy,

for the long term health of Revenant, we need more utilities

You cant counter situations without entirely changing your legend, which is disappointing. We’re too limited on our skill customization.

please do NOT rush rev or HoT

I don’t really think we need more utilities… I main Guardian and all I use are meditations or shouts for WvW and concentrations for Fractals. Every legend on revenant has its role in a specific gamemode or situation. Revenant can even be perfect for certain things since it can swap two roles in a fractal run, sPvP match or even WvW roaming/havoc/zerg.

To be fair it is the Revenants class mechanic and it already is a bit of a nightmare balancing all those skills other classes have since they can be combined in allot of ways. It would also mean once Revenant is done that each legend will be viable in certain things.

What if every time you wanted to play your “Fractal Legend” you were stuck with Wall of Reflection, Hallowed Ground, and Sanctuary? Sure those skills aren’t all bad, but you can’t change them out to suit the situation. You’re stuck with those three skills just because you chose your group support “Legend”. You can’t change to more burning, condi removal, or projectile defense if you want to.

THAT’s what is wrong with the Revenant right now. It’s not relevant that other professions have only a handful of favorite utilities because they can choose when to use that handful and in what combination.

Additionally I disagree that Revenants can “fill two roles at once” just because they have two Legends. The Legends don’t really even come close to filling the one role they are obviously meant for. Shiro is not the end all DPS spec. Mallyx is not a great condi spec. Jalis is not tanky nor good at support. Ventari may be the only one that completely fills its role but even ignoring that its role is pure healing and how useful that may or may not be… that’s 1 out of 4 Legends. Not good.

With more utilities Revenants could at least lean more toward the “jack of all trades” end of the spectrum. With only 2 choices made by equipping your 2 Legends that’s not enough to be jack of all trades and the legends themselves aren’t good enough to be a master of any one trade either.

My Feedback (cont.):
Legends
I gave it a chance through two opportunities to play it now… and I just have to say Legends need some options. I think we need to have 5 options for utility skills for each legend, 6 would be ideal so that two Revs using the same Legend could actually have different skills. I’m not looking for a huge utility menu like other professions, I don’t want that I understand the Rev works differently. What I do think we need, just like we needed weapon swap, is the ability to have some amount of customization.

Right now the Legends are so locked into their predefined role that even with the two different Legends you choose you have very minimal flexibility.

The benefits would be two-fold. Not only do you get more customization but this is a chance to improve some weaknesses of the Rev that need it (of course we need to retain some weaknesses, but even the Engi isn’t this bad at removing condis!). I know there’s only a month or two to create these skills for a launch that’s probably in December but I think it’s really important.

I think this is a really quick and dirty rough draft of the types of skills that could be added that shore up some glaring weaknesses but don’t make the Rev master of everything and weak to nothing:
Shiro – Give a condi removal, something defensive or vampiric, and something to grant fury.
Ventari – Give a couple skills that do damage and give something like an aura around the tablet to buff players like banners.
Jalis – Give a condi removal and some real support like Guards have (Regen, Protection, Aegis).
Mallyx – Give some skills that generate meaningful condi damage.

Overall notes on legends:
Shiro – stun break is a nice addition but ruined by energy cost. I admit there’s a lot I have to learn when it comes to managing energy and I might not understand it all yet… but I think requiring energy to break a stun is not a good idea. Even Thieves have some skills that don’t require Initiative (and what do ya know, no stun break requires Inititative!). I love the other two skills, overall energy management issues notwithstanding.
Jalis – Elite needs something else… I liked the idea I saw somewhere that said to apply the effects to the Rev at the start of the cast. The taunt is really bad. Not just at 50e, but just as a skill. It needs some other effect in addition to a huge energy reduction. Hammers and road are cool. I’d love road to give swiftness baseline, it is a road afterall!
Ventari – It plays okay but I’m just not into the pure healing play style. I don’t think I could accurately and fairly review this legend as it plays right now.
Mallyx – Oh Mallyx… I love and hate you. The displacement on Unyielding Anguish needs to go, the novelty of using it in pvp is gone and now it’s just annoying. It’s 4s of not being able to do anything to your target as they teleport around you. I like how you can spec to be basically immune to condis but I just don’t feel that the generation of condis is good enough in this Legend. I would like to see some more bleeds and torment on the skills, something to not just be annoying to your opponent but to actually be a threat.

Traits
There’s some serious pigeon holing going on in the traits, but that’s been covered more in depth by others. I would like to see some more meaningful trait choices, I feel like the Revenant is using traits from before the trait revamp a few months back.

My Feedback:
Overall I know I still have something to learn when it comes to energy management, but boy spamming 111111 all day is not fun. If the current pace of using skills is to be maintained, every skill needs more “oomph”. When I play other professions I can put out WAY more skills and many of them are even more powerful than Rev. If the Rev is supposed to choose their skills carefully they need to be way more powerful. Otherwise if Revs should use skills at the same pace as everyone else they really need work with energy usage. Either Weapons don’t use energy or we need some drastic reductions across the board. Others have gone into way more depth with this, their writeups are better than anything else I could say on the matter.

Weapons
Mace: Seems much better with the increased speed, but doesn’t put out enough conditions to actually spec for condi damage. Rev doesn’t really have a lot of condi generation I don’t think, Mallyx is mostly about controlling the ones you have and spreading them slowly. The Mace is the main source of Condi it seems like but it just doesn’t have enough. Also terrain really screws with #3, but that seems to be a game-wide problem right now. Terrain is OP, nerf it.
Axe: This weapon is great, it’s a better pair with MH Sword than an offhand sword IMO. My only issue with it is that #4 should reverse the camera. It’s nice that it is landing the damage consistently, but it’s annoying to have my camera facing the wrong way (character is facing the right way so that’s good, but even more weird…).
Staff: Staff feels pretty good now. I still don’t think #2 is worth using but overall I like the weapon. Auto attack damage is slightly low for a melee weapon (a slow-ish 2H especially) but it’s not bad. If I could make one ridiculous suggestion that probably won’t be implemented… I would LOVE to see a “return skill” added to #5. Step back through the mists to your original location after charging forward. Bring target with you. This would allow you to use it normally and charge forward and attack but you would also have the option to come back to your group and into the fields that are all behind you now. That would be cray-cray.
Hammer: Hammer is great now I like it. Terrain is OP against #2, but again this is an issue throughout the game right now. #3 should have evade on it, you can eat too much damage for a skill that doesn’t let you move and forces you do go into dangerous melee situations. #5 cast time is sort of silly, I would like to see a short cast time with a delayed effect (like Orbital Strike for Engis) to keep the same time for the enemy to react but not lock up the Rev so much.
MH Sword: This weapon is pretty fun, #2 seems underwhelming. I like the Chilled condition but frankly it seems unnecessary with all the other tools Shiro/Sword users have to catch up to fleeing/ranged targets. I would like to see #2 do something more useful. #3 has the main problems that everyone else says. It’s not good when there’s more targets (ironic for how the skill looks) and you just eat so much damage. Needs evade badly, and something to make it worth using with multiple targets. It sucks to be in AOE situations and just stare at that skill knowing you shouldn’t use it even though it’s awesome looking.
OH Sword: The block is pretty cool actually, it took me a little bit to figure out how the second attack you get from it worked. The teleport/pull #5 skill is weird… hard to judge it with the terrain issues. I think it’s a good skill that works well in that spot on the skill bar if it would actually work at all.

My feedback:

Virtues:
I thought these were fun. I like the different take on them, Justice is quite strong and I like that I could make Resolve do damage. Shield of Courage was an interesting new take on the blocking capabilities of this virtue. The thing I don’t like, as it seems most others don’t like as well, is that you can’t pop any remaining Virtues when you use Renewed Focus. I’m willing to live with that as a downside for what I feel is overall an upgrade to the virtues.

Longbow:
Meh. It wasn’t very fun. Unlike some other Elite Specs or certain parts of the Revenant I can’t really pinpoint why. It was a bow with blue skills, that’s about all I can say.

1. is boring and too slow.
2. is cool, I had read a lot of feedback before I tried it leading me to believe it had something like a 3s windup. It’s not that bad, but I do think the damage needs to be increased if it’s going to root you. It has to compare to Killshot, maybe not as strong but it needs to be in the same ballpark.
3. is alright, an interesting idea. I would like to see it travel slower to actually have a chance to react to incoming projectiles.
4. is burning from a light field… weird. Overall it’s not very exciting and contributes to the “bleh” aspect of the Longbow for me. It’s nearly an exact copy of Warrior Longbow skills.
5. is cool looking, but I feel as the “#5 skill” it should do more damage. It’s also sort of hard to see what exactly it does visually… I think it immobilizes with light or something but I never really saw more than a faint ring around enemies.

Traps:
I did not get a chance to try them all. I thought Dragon’s Maw was pretty cool looking. I would like to see a damage over time effect on it, they are being chewed up by a dragon after all. Procession of Blades was pretty good for generic AOE meat grinding. Overall I feel the traps were also sort of boring, nothing that set them apart from other traps to me. They do need a trait for ground targets if that can’t just be made baseline.

Traits:
Adept: Piercing Light is really weak, the others I like. Piercing Light needs to do something else, Guards don’t bleed so adding one bleed doesn’t really do much except cover but I don’t want to take a trait just for that reason (especially when the other choices are good).
Master: I can see the usefulness of Bulwark. The minor is also interesting if you want to max burning. The other two are pretty bland to me, they don’t seem to add much and I can’t see where I would “need to have it”.
Grandmaster: The minor is fine, obviously meant for the longbow. Big Game Hunter is great but the other two aren’t. I can’t really think of any reason to take either of the other two over BGH. Hunter’s Fortification is not bad necessarily but that doesn’t seem to be what this trait line is about. If you’re going for tankiness you’re probably not using this trait line. One trait probably isn’t going to change that.

Conclusion:
The Dragonhunter (aside from virtues) feels like a Ranger… with blue effects. It doesn’t really stand out to me as something different. Traps will likely be used mostly with Greatsword, they synergize much better than Longbow, but I understand the new skills don’t necessarily have to be used with the new weapon. Using them together might be why I felt the Dragonhunter was sort of “meh”. Maybe using other Guardian utilities would make it feel better but I didn’t do that. This might be the only elite spec (so far) where it feels better to NOT use the new skills and weapon together.

I agree Axe is pretty flexible. I also tried Staff on Shiro, it was not bad but it felt weird. I think Sword/anything fits much better.

I do think the problem is more severe with the traits. There is not much choice overall.

This is not the most common complaint I have seen for the Revenant but it’s my biggest.

Obviously each weapon and trait line pairs with a legend…

Staff = Ventari
Sword/Sword = Shiro
Mace/Axe = Mallyx
Hammer = Jalis

It’s not that I think this is a bad idea, but I feel that the traits and weapons are too closely married with their legend. There’s not a lot of mixing and matching opportunites. Don’t like the Ventari skill set? Say goodbye to the Staff or anything from the Salvation trait line. Not a fan of Mallyx? Then there’s not really a point to using Corruption or Mace.

Maybe this is how every profession is, but I don’t feel that way when I play them. Maybe the overall lack in customization on the Revenant brings out this feeling for me. Coupled with the inability to customize any of your skill bar beyond legend choice it leaves me with the feeling that I don’t get much of a choice in deciding how to build, and by extension how to play, a Revenant. The term that comes up for me over and over is “pigeonholed”.

Am I off base? Does anyone else feel this way?

I would say there’s hope because it was their plan during the specializations preview awhile back. Other than that I don’t believe we know anything else other than it hasn’t been implemented.

I agree with most other people around here it would be nice if they told us they changed direction. On the other hand it would be pretty unreasonable to expect them to tell us of EVERY decision they ever make.

I would still think this issue warrants some sort of communication since we were recently told exactly how it would perform and that is currently not the case, but who knows what will happen.

eduardo.1436:

Also what are some cool hammer skins for us engies?

The only right answer is the Aetherized Hammer.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Woah woah woah. DONT burst his SoW? That’s terrible advice. Amplified wrath has a 1s ICD so just by auto attacking, you should proc two stacks of burn at the very most for about 2-3s. If he’s a power guardian, that burn shouldn’t be that big of a threat. Leaving the power guardian to have his SoW burst can (and will) do an unholy amount of damage. In sPvP, with around 10 might stacks and marauder amulet, my guard’s SoW burst for 6k. Im fairly certain you DONT want to try tanking that in WvW, what with its inflated stats. If he’s a burn guardian, you’ll most likely see him open with torch instead of the usual SoW > JI > WW combo.

I’m glad this comment exists. I scrolled all the way to the bottom of this thread hoping someone would make this correction.

Shield of Wrath you DO want to attack ASAP. This skill is from the focus, and the graphic is bubble of stationary shields tightly around the Guardian (it also pulses if you look closely). The Guardians animations are NOT interrupted. If you do not break this shield you will take a lot of damage, it doesn’t matter if you think you’ve kited away just assume the Guardian will teleport. Grenades, PDV, Flame Jet, and Fumigate are really good ways to get rid of this skill safely because of the high rate of attack.

Protector’s Strike is the skill you don’t want to attack (or you can attack from range). This is a mace skill, the graphic is more of a ring around the Guardian with rotating shields where they hold the mace up until the duration is over. This skill does less than half the damage of SoW, so either way it’s not a huge deal.

It’s not at all comparable to Rev, and it has little to do with the count of skills (I’m sort of confused why people always seem to start counting skills whenever weapon swap is discussed).

Rev had a severe limitation in customization by the way Legends are designed. Their only real choices were “which 2 legends” and “which weapon”. They have no control over skills beyond that, and in fact some of that “choice” was illusory because you simply have to take a certain weapon with certain Legends and certain Legends with certain playstyles.

None of this applies to Eles or Engis. Choosing to be a support roe, damage role, or even to use your favorite utility skill doesn’t automatically fill in the rest of your loadout. Choose rifle on Engi or staff on Ele doesn’t dictate what other skills you must use. Beyond that both Ele and Engi can change their weapon skills at any time during combat, they are not stuck to one skill bar as Revs were. Eles and Engis simply do not need weapon swap.

I’m spoiled from maining an Engi, but I agree Revenant needs something for speed. It is practically baseline for any profession in this game, like the fall damage trait.

A suggestion in this thread from Coldtart might be the way to go and would result in Revenant oddly being the fastest profession.

Impossible Odds for 9 seconds. Rev Swap in and out of Shiro (sets energy back to 50). Rinse and repeat.

I think a regular weapon swap is needed, not a halfway “weapons with legends” thing. Imagine that you have 10 skills all assigned to you just by choosing your legend. There’s no customization whatsoever. No thanks!

Jordo.5913:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Sonickeyblade.8415:

Randulf.7614:

I suspect swords will come if shiro is indeed the 4th spec, which strong indications show

Remember, the beta isn’t the full Rev, so plenty to be added yet

That’s pretty fair. I know it’s a beta but I thought all the specs were released/revealed already for it.

We have not released all weapons and legends for the Revenant yet. Right now there is definitely a gap in the playstyles offered as we haven’t discussed the more pure DPS focused setup yet. soon tm.

that shouldnt stop us from being able to do competitive dps with other legends, if a guardian specs into pure shouts to support, they can still do really good dps with their weapon, and that is simply not the case with Revenant, it feels like if i choose ventari as a legend and equip staff, then im only dpsing for the healing orbs to drop because my damage is laughable

im in full zerk gear and all the weapons hit like im wielding a wet noodle

This is a very important point. I was initially wrong when I said I wasn’t going to judge the profession’s damage until the damage legend and trait line comes out. That might be true for MAXIMUM damage attainable, but the Rev can’t be dependent on one legend and one trait line to do any meaningful damage. Rev should be able to kill stuff much faster than it is now even without the best damage legend.

Right now even the “condi master” legend is pretty bad. Rev cannot be a true condi threat with no bleed whatsoever unless the Torment and burns are at least doubled.

Slow and Clunky.

My single most wanted change is to fix the energy management system as it currently stands. I would like to see no cooldown on skills that require energy, and for weapon skills to not require energy. I would also like to see some way (ANY way) to build energy in combat besides sitting there doing nothing, aka auto attacking. Should be more like Initiative where you can build it up by traiting and doing certain things.

Laraley.7695:

I actually think that cooldowns should be removed from weapons. You can have either energy or cooldowns, but not both.

This is where I land as well. Energy looks like it could be a fun resource to manage in combat but not on top of cooldowns and not when EVERY skill drains energy (besides auto of course).

It should be more like Initiative, there need to be skills that BUILD energy. When using an upkeep skill I felt like all I could do is auto attack or the upkeep skill disappears almost as soon as I cast it. It would be nice if weapon skills did not use energy and there was some way to build my energy up.

I think the biggest problem regarding no weapon swap is the lack of flexibility in ranged vs melee. With hammer you are bad in melee, with everything else you are bad or non existent in range. Every other profession can adapt with a weapon swap or attunements/kits to change their range capabilities but the Revenant cannot. That is one of my biggest complaints during gameplay, I feel stuck if the enemy moves toward me in hammer or away from me in anything else.

Regardless of game mode I have grown to dislike the displacement on that skill as a Revenant. Why would I want to push the enemy out of my damaging field and spend time chasing them down? I think this should change to some other kind of CC that doesn’t negate the point of using a field.

The Ventari legend seems like it’s telling me to be a full time healer with no damage output (literally none of the Ventari skills does base damage). However we’ve been told time and time again there is no trinity in this game.

Ventari seems like it can be good as an “off legend” to heal you up in case Mallyx is making you die or something but I don’t think is has much purpose on its own. The meta might change to require more healing but the game itself is just not designed around a full time healer which is what Ventari wants you to be. It doesn’t make much sense to me what the purpose of this legend is.

Zerker meta groups or not, no one wants a full time healer in their dungeon group that is outputting auto attack Cleric gear damage.

What is largely thought to be the raw damage oriented legend (Shiro) is not playable in this beta.

I agree on a few key points here. Ele and Engi don’t have weapon swap for good reason, they have plenty of options without it. Revenant does not feel the same way. It feels very limited on options. On Ele and Engi I am never forced to either melee or ranged combat. With Revenant I feel that I am forced to range with hammer and forced to melee with staff or mace/axe. There’s limited flexibility.

I also so far do not like both cooldowns and energy management. It feels very clunky. One or the other please. I understand this is (sort of) how it worked in GW1 but it doesn’t feel right in this game.

Damage is terrible but that’s okay as I’m assuming the high damage legend is Shiro and is not yet playable. I’m not judging that part of the Revenant yet.

Casia.4281:

numbers were in a pve situation with 25stacks of might, then “vul” was 25 stacks".
Yeah, a bit disappointed at that.
Serious problem with cond builds. They die out. Some strong Cooldowns, huge early boost.
That initial combo I have there, KILLS things fast. IA, napalm, flameblast(optional), throw napalm, blowtorch, static, airblast, firebomb, concbomb. That was 15 stacks of burning in like 7seconds. With all 6 IA, probably more like 20 stacks. But.. then you run out.
Need better options for sustain. PDV is ok. Mortar 1 in firefields is pretty good. (will be very good, with explosives working.) that frag shot downtime you see is awful though. Thought flamejet might preform better. but doing the math. sadly, not much. yes it will proc sharpshooter more as well. Probably only like another 50dps though. Sharpshooter is not THAT big of a deal.

Been trying to figure out if Elixir gun should be swapped in for flame turret, or even flamethower. But again, baddies say cond needs to “ramp up.” They are wrong and don’t understand both how cond work or the skills that apply them. its actually sustain and mobility they are bad at.

in totally going back to Path of exile, so might not check back in… but if you can explain some of his numbers in the spreadsheet screenshot he provided please do..
he claimed “high armor” 2600 was assumed, and what I used for may calcs.
Still don’t see how his burns were doing over 2x the damage they should have for his 920 cond damage in his zerker 17k dps build. his grenade barrage has a 2295 burn tick at the 1s mark. only incendary ammo for burns, no powder. how is 920 cond IA dealing 2295 burn damage with 3 stacks? how is Incendiary ammo ALSO dealing 8651 damage?
His kit damage seems wrong, and total damage values all around far far too high.
I didnt check all his numbers but barrage should have been like 22-26k or something too, not 32k.

This is why I’d like to get my hands on that file, but that’s not likely going to happen. I don’t have the time or energy to build one myself. I agree with you that the numbers are high, but all that really matters are the numbers relative to other Engi builds. If he says one build does a million damage and another does 2 million damage well even if his numbers are wrong as long as he is consistent one is twice as good as the other. I have no way of knowing that without that spreadsheet for myself though.

Casia.4281:

Adamantium.3682:

Has someone made a FT build that can get within ~10% or so of the DnT PvE build for damage?

I don’t trust his numbers. they make no sense.

Thank you for saying that. They make sense to me but I would still like to have access to an Excel file like that so I could feel better about trusting it and putting in my own numbers and rotations.

My comment should have been written more like “any FT builds that don’t get completely outclassed by a real DPS build?”.

This was my write up on sinister.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Sinister-Pve-p-p-ft-fturret-bomb-mortar/first#post5240992

A few changes since, I have not written up. One being the IA fix.
Other being Flamejet as the replacement for fragshot.

IA is not much..
11636 over 42s CD was math before, double 223,272 over 42s.
554dps.

Throw napalm for example is 9051 burning, 1312 direct average 21s cd.
493 dps. But also AOE and a fire field.

Frag shot was 1000 wpnstr, .35 coef, vs 2600 armor
dealing av 683 damage with 1329.7 bleed per shot, .75s/a. with crit including, 25stacks of vul not.
683 direct dps.
1769ish bleed dps.
2452 combined, 3065 with vul.

Flame jet would be 967 wpnstr, .225 coef, 10 hits per 2.57s.
241/hit vs 2600 amor, 351 with crit, no vul. x10 for 3511 over 2.57s.
1366 direct dps. x1.1 burnin bonus1503
1005 burning dps.
2508 combined, 3135 with vul.

Huh, just doing the math on that. Flamejet looked much better on paper… dang. Its just “Barely”. would have more sharpshooter procs though.
Its burn is pathetic.

Wow Flame Jet barely beats the friggin’ pistol auto attack!? That’s really bad. Does this take into account the Juggernaut might stacks? It also looks like Flame Jet needs numbers for bleeds, that might help.

I remember during the specialization reveals that the Med Kit looked like it placed a beacon on the ground that affected allies in an area. I feel like if all the dropped skills did that with some sort of pulsing AOE or one time effect it would be much better. Items that you have to pick up is the underlying reason why this kit is bad. I’m worried that months from now they will “fix” the Med Kit by simply making the packs drop at our feet again which would be no improvement, they need to work differently.

To answer the question of the thread I really don’t know. I can’t imagine Anet really sat down with this kit and intended people to sit in it and spam heals to their group, I just don’t believe they’re that out of touch. I have no other explanation for the state of this kit other than they simply half "kitten"ed it?

I don’t know if it is considered a “bug fix” or not but I would consider bombs being stuck at 180 range a nerf since we used to be able to make it 240 and most people didn’t even use the kit otherwise. I really thought this patch would go the other way for bomb kit, make the damage match the area not the other way around. Pretty bummed about it tbh… As much as I like it it’s just not good enough at 180 for PvP.

Has someone made a FT build that can get within ~10% or so of the DnT PvE build for damage?

I feel like there’s a lot of things that were on the table when Engi specs were revealed that didn’t make it into the patch. Things change which I understand, but I would like to at least know one way or the other. Changing plans as a developer is a given, but showing a lot of proposed changes and not implementing a large amount of them annoys me a little bit.

Should I be expecting my pistol auto attack to be classified as an explosive? Jump Shot? Are bombs going back to 240 radius? Are pistol and rifle getting range increase baseline? Should I be flooding the bug receiving team with these or are they intended? Are there more major bug fix patches coming? I feel like we’re sort of in the dark.

Thanks to Phineas I came to the conclusion that No Scope was better for my P/P Celestial build especially because it uses bombs. Neither way is going to be build defining but the numbers aren’t even close.

If you are not built to constantly be <240 range I could see why No Scope would not be attractive but otherwise I don’t really see why you wouldn’t take it.

Agreed, without Siege Rounds it is just another blast. With Siege Rounds I think it’s good enough to slot into the DPS rotation.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Submit-Profession-Bugs-to-the-Game-Bugs-Forum

I need to try Carrion some more it sounds like. I don’t have any question it would do more damage, but I wonder about the survive ability. I could put on offhand shield, but I was trying to be different!

PierPiero.9142:

with cele the adamantium’s build seems quite strong becouse it has good direct damage and good condi damage (1500,1000) … but i did not find a viable condi build with rabid becouse it seemed to me too weak. The only “viable”… thing is hgh with mortar … but mortar is a little slow to land for 1 vs 1 …

Rabid works in that build, you’ll get over 1700 condition damage and just switch runes to Undead or Balth. You may want to also switch to Mortar but the Crate is a pretty big part of why that build is so hard to kill. Side note am I the only one that noticed they cut a full minute off the cooldown for Crate? If they want to make use other elites maybe stop buffing the best one in the game? Lol…

I think the reason why I prefer Celestial is because some of the traits you are sort of forced into in that build do nothing for pure condi builds. Like you said with Cele at least there’s decent direct damage that can make use of some of those traits.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Anyone-having-success-with-p-p-condi-in-spvp/5244347

This thread started earlier today is discussing P/P builds but in general condi builds for sPvP.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Grenadier only increase flight speed of grenades and not actual casting speed? This would not result in any damage increase as you’re still throwing the same amount of grenades in a set amount of time.

So the OP didn’t even know what the bug was when this thread was created. Also OP contends that without Grenadier the grenade damage is much lower…

Move along, nothing to see here.

Interesting that the two responses so far seem to be in pretty different places. I suggest you try both. My build is by no means set in stone I’m always looking for ways to improve it so a different perspective is helpful.

Phineas Poe.3018:

IP offers enough burning damage without Blowtorch…

… Celestial burn ticks are ticklish…

Maybe your Celestial burns are ticklish because you think you have “enough” burning damage without using our best burning skill. I think as a general rule if you’re going for a condi build there’s no such thing as “enough” burning especially as it currently scales. It looks like you’re a little more hybrid though which I get.

Carrion is another decent choice of course. I like Rabid more than Carrion because you can get more condi through Pinpoint Distribution but there are a couple good choices for condi builds I think. I would like to see more condi amulets though, as for my build neither Rabid or Celestial is ideal they both have pros/cons. It’s something ridiculous like 3 condi amulets vs 10 power amulets.

Elixir Infused Bombs was good but it was hard to have any meaningful damage in that trait line. While the new Inventions spec doesn’t have the auto attack heal spam I feel that it can result in a stronger Engineer that still provides lots of group healing without giving up all their damage.

If one of you EIB fans have real heal-per-second and damage-per-second numbers of your old builds I would be very interested to compare it to a build now that goes into Explosives and Inventions with Mortar. My feeling is that it will take a lot more than spamming auto attack but you could get similar healing with far more damage.

Yes and yes, but it usually doesn’t matter. In PvP you should be moving around anyways so it’s easy to get around or walk through the reflect. Otherwise you can throw/shoot at the base of the reflect and hit them with the AOE explosion. Reflect is not a meaningful counter to nades or mortar.