Guild Wars 2

NapTooN.6283:

Frightlight.3796:

NapTooN.6283:

Frightlight.3796:

Technophile would have been glorious

yep, having sex with Scarlet’s Steam Creatures sounds totally glorious.

You should probably look up the meaning of technophile

I know the meaning of necrophilia and pedophilia, so it is not far fetched to put technophilia into the same category. But to let you sleep well tonight, it was meant as a joke but of course someone had to play the srsbsns-card.

-phile is not the same as -philia.

Well there are quite a lot of unblockable skills out there and ways to get unblockable attacks. I don’t think this skill is going to be as good as we might think, I hope to be wrong.

I don’t think I’ll ever understand the hang up over counting skills. Professions are balanced around how many skills they have access to in combat. Revs can use 10 on the right side of their bar, Eles can use more, Engis can use a wide range. Engis always use kits because they are balanced around having those slots available to them. The count doesn’t matter.

What does matter is when my Engi doesn’t need the Bomb Kit for a ranged fight I can swap it for Elixir Gun. Or Elixir U. Or whatever I swap it to doesn’t matter the point is I never have to have dead slots on my skill bar. Revenant always will have dead slots on its skill bar. This is the issue many of us have.

I don’t want the Revenant to have 20 choices in each legend, that would be overkill and not the point. Rev doesn’t need to be all things at all times. What it does need is the option to not have dead skills on its bar.

Palador.2170:

Otaur.9268:

The name fits well…

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrapper
Scrapper = a person who removes or does away with scraps
or
Scrapper = a fighter or aggressive competitor, especially one always ready or eager for a fight, argument, or contest

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scrapper
Scrapper = Someone who looks small but is really wired and can kick some major “butt” even though he doesn’t look like it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scrapper ::
Scrapper = fighter, quarreler; also : a fierce competitor

The name fits poorly…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scrapper_
Scrapper = Troublemaker and loser.

I know that the name’s going to stay, but would charr really use it? I don’t think so. Still, it’s hardly the first time something’s not been a good fit for charr. (Armor joke, you can laugh at it.)

I don’t expect people to read an entire thread before they reply, so check out what I posted a page or two back:

Someone on Reddit has something real interesting to say about it from a lore perspective. Words can change meaning over time, it happens all the time in real life so why not in Tyria.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3l6kw0/and_the_french_translation_of_scrapper_is/

Guard + Thief is my simplistic 2-profession combination comparison. This does not mean Revs can do everything a Guardian does, or anything a Thief does.

Revs support their party through heals and boons similar to Guardian. They teleport around and have lots of evades like Thief.

ronpierce.2760:

I hope you realize that your defenses against conditions… really didn’t change much. It still relies on resistance from the trait. if anything, with the lower costs on the new UA and EtD, your “defenses” theoretically went up a smidge…

Your weakness to conditions didn’t do anything, all that changes was what you do WITH them, and it only ‘really’ changed in the form of EtD not COPYING them back. AFAIK, EtD never transfered them or removed them, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Good luck though with your burn guard having very little resistance removal and getting smoked by Banish Enchantments.

I’ve seen a couple of threads like this and it’s funny because these forum warriors who are so personally offended by the change really seem to have no idea how Mallyx worked in the first place. Just as you describe, nothing about the change to Mallyx reduces defense against conditions. If anything it’s gone up.

It’s not for me, but I’m glad a lot of Engis who like it can use it now.

I got an Aetherized Hammer months ago hoping Engis could use hammer someday. I’m eager to see new legendaries also but I would be surprised if any hammer is better than that!

paladinecho.3024:

I’m only grinding for gold at the moment to see how this all plays out. So far I’ve collected a good amount for the time. If they can’t deliver on talking to us or giving us things we ask for that are not really game breaking, then I’m out. I tire of a one sided conversation with ANET.

Can I have your stuff?

Basaltface.2786:

Adamantium.3682:

Basaltface.2786:

Adamantium.3682:

Basaltface.2786:

CandyHearts.6025:

I don’t know why but. . .

I LOVE THE NAME! Can’t wait for the POI this week. I bet it’ll be fantastic!

As a charr i detest it. Beeing a scrapper (and its indeed originating from the charr scrappers) is a punishment for beeing consistently insubordinate, unreliable, or troublesome and there is zero respect for a scrapper in the legions. A scrapper is seen as an untrustworthy troublemaker…and last time i checked i was an iron legion centurio and commander of the pact aswell high ranked member of an order and sort of a big deal all arround. Beeing a scrapper is basically the opposide of that and its quite a big punch under the belt line to be fully honest.

Player charr quote from personal story: “Scrappers? Lowlife scavengers.”

Someone on Reddit has something real interesting to say about it from a lore perspective. I’m not into RP, but I found this to be a good point of view and if this came from Anet and not just the author’s own ideas that’s a pretty dynamic way to evolve the lore in game.

Basically words change meaning over time and Scrapper could be evolving from a negative term to a more positive one. This happens in real life all the time. Read here (if you can read French you may be able to get more context from the article itself):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3l6kw0/and_the_french_translation_of_scrapper_is/

i did read it and its sorta kinda stupid….cause since when does convict labour become something to look up to? You dun goofd hence you do it and there is nothing glorios about that. A charr scrapper dun goofd big time to become that, cause charr take their military stuff pretty darn serios. Where is the honor in that?
Sure.. some elite spec names are (depending on who you ask) stupid…like the dragon hunter, we all sorta hunt dragons afterall. But how does beeing punished for beeing a nuisance to an army inspires other races?

“oy look at these scrapper charrs overthere, they are so awesome how they do convict labour cause they are bad soldiers. I wonder what this warband did to get this far? Ignore orders? Run from battle? Wow man i gotta join their cause to be the least respected members of the charr army… cant imagine anything better. They clearly know whats up.”

Really now man.. thats not inspiring, thats like i would say to you “hey look at these guys with their orange vests besides the police officer picking up garbage cause they get punished for their offences to the law. Arent they amazing doing the stuff that a judge said they gotta do?”

Nah man.. really nope. The name “scrapper” is not bad on its own.. but the meaning behind it is a really mean move from the devs. Atleast in my eyes.

Scrappers aren’t convicts.

You might want to read the link that I found for you, to me most of your post doesn’t make sense without the context of that link.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scrapper_

So you won’t read a link I found for you, but your response is nothing but a link I’m supposed to read?

I can tell you’re upset by the name, and there’s not likely to be a meaningful discussion here. I have read the wiki entry, I don’t get “convict” from it at all, but it feels like your mind is made up to the point of not even fully reading people’s responses to you. Agree to disagree I guess.

Basaltface.2786:

Adamantium.3682:

Basaltface.2786:

CandyHearts.6025:

I don’t know why but. . .

I LOVE THE NAME! Can’t wait for the POI this week. I bet it’ll be fantastic!

As a charr i detest it. Beeing a scrapper (and its indeed originating from the charr scrappers) is a punishment for beeing consistently insubordinate, unreliable, or troublesome and there is zero respect for a scrapper in the legions. A scrapper is seen as an untrustworthy troublemaker…and last time i checked i was an iron legion centurio and commander of the pact aswell high ranked member of an order and sort of a big deal all arround. Beeing a scrapper is basically the opposide of that and its quite a big punch under the belt line to be fully honest.

Player charr quote from personal story: “Scrappers? Lowlife scavengers.”

Someone on Reddit has something real interesting to say about it from a lore perspective. I’m not into RP, but I found this to be a good point of view and if this came from Anet and not just the author’s own ideas that’s a pretty dynamic way to evolve the lore in game.

Basically words change meaning over time and Scrapper could be evolving from a negative term to a more positive one. This happens in real life all the time. Read here (if you can read French you may be able to get more context from the article itself):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3l6kw0/and_the_french_translation_of_scrapper_is/

i did read it and its sorta kinda stupid….cause since when does convict labour become something to look up to? You dun goofd hence you do it and there is nothing glorios about that. A charr scrapper dun goofd big time to become that, cause charr take their military stuff pretty darn serios. Where is the honor in that?
Sure.. some elite spec names are (depending on who you ask) stupid…like the dragon hunter, we all sorta hunt dragons afterall. But how does beeing punished for beeing a nuisance to an army inspires other races?

“oy look at these scrapper charrs overthere, they are so awesome how they do convict labour cause they are bad soldiers. I wonder what this warband did to get this far? Ignore orders? Run from battle? Wow man i gotta join their cause to be the least respected members of the charr army… cant imagine anything better. They clearly know whats up.”

Really now man.. thats not inspiring, thats like i would say to you “hey look at these guys with their orange vests besides the police officer picking up garbage cause they get punished for their offences to the law. Arent they amazing doing the stuff that a judge said they gotta do?”

Nah man.. really nope. The name “scrapper” is not bad on its own.. but the meaning behind it is a really mean move from the devs. Atleast in my eyes.

Scrappers aren’t convicts.

You might want to read the link that I found for you, to me most of your post doesn’t make sense without the context of that link.

Basaltface.2786:

CandyHearts.6025:

I don’t know why but. . .

I LOVE THE NAME! Can’t wait for the POI this week. I bet it’ll be fantastic!

As a charr i detest it. Beeing a scrapper (and its indeed originating from the charr scrappers) is a punishment for beeing consistently insubordinate, unreliable, or troublesome and there is zero respect for a scrapper in the legions. A scrapper is seen as an untrustworthy troublemaker…and last time i checked i was an iron legion centurio and commander of the pact aswell high ranked member of an order and sort of a big deal all arround. Beeing a scrapper is basically the opposide of that and its quite a big punch under the belt line to be fully honest.

Player charr quote from personal story: “Scrappers? Lowlife scavengers.”

Someone on Reddit has something real interesting to say about it from a lore perspective. I’m not into RP, but I found this to be a good point of view and if this came from Anet and not just the author’s own ideas that’s a pretty dynamic way to evolve the lore in game.

Basically words change meaning over time and Scrapper could be evolving from a negative term to a more positive one. This happens in real life all the time. Read here (if you can read French you may be able to get more context from the article itself):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3l6kw0/and_the_french_translation_of_scrapper_is/

Whatever the fuel mechanic is could make for some pretty engaging gameplay with the Gyros. If they’re less “fire and forget” type drones and more “they’re active only as long as you upkeep enough fuel” that could be pretty interesting and less AI based. It would be great to get concrete info on this fuel mechanic tomorrow and not have to wait until Friday.

Whenever I think about the Gyros I get hungry. I’m hungry.

Mord.9237:

Rage Cube.4573:

Is fine.

Fix Interaction between kits and legendary weapon effects and I will be happy. Unless 5 drone build is viable. Then I will take that and be happy.

Srs… too many people on here saying Engi is bad and needs rework/buffs.

What game mode do you play in? How hardcore? Does your guild support your decision to play Engineer? How did you convince them?

Anyone can come onto a forum and state their opinion of a class, but for said opinion to be valid in any way, we need facts to back it up. So how is your opinion of Engi being “fine” and not needing any reworks aside from aesthetics validated?

It sort of sucks you’re telling someone their opinion isn’t valid and has to be proved. Dude, it’s an opinion. Although it wasn’t my post you ripped apart, here’s what I think…

I don’t think fine means no changes needed whatsoever everything is perfect. That’s a strawman argument to try and suggest OP is saying that. It just doesn’t have to be that black and white. Engi overall is in a pretty good place I think. It performs very well in PvP and PvE. I don’t WvW too much, and I know there are concerns regarding its zerg capability but Engis still make great roamers.

Engineer forums has really gone downhill. Really with the complaints already? We don’t know specifics of anything yet!

Didn’t OP say he was leaving the game anyways?

In about 12 hours we’ll have a pretty good idea (I believe mmorpg.com has the Wednesday article that will likely go up ~9am PST).

I see a lot of comparisons to Necro minions, but hardly any reference to how much improved their minion AI has been since the recent patch. Every Necro I’ve talked to (and I also agree) says minions are actually good now and pretty fun to use. If that AI is used on drones I am open minded.

Still, I would rather not see AI. We’ll have to see how it plays out though, it’s not like the elite specs so far have had predictable mechanics to them at all. It could be something completely unexpected. No need to speculate anymore though I’m going to bed and waking up to the truth

Nothing to add, I’ve been saying this since the first preview.

To be honest it feels good to play the Revenant now, but that was for one weekend. I’m not sure how well I can sustain a profession that has no customization.

I suggested making traits more impactful to promote at least some meaningful customization, but that doesn’t seem likely or realistic.

My best hope at this point is that if their metrics do indeed show many players dropping Revenant and not playing it anymore after the “new shiny” factor wears off (which I think they will) that they reconsider this stance they’ve taken and add another 1-2 options to each legend to make it fun to play after the first few months.

I know a common response is “well sure other professions can change skills, but they never do and there’s 3 best options in the meta”. I believe that is flawed, it’s not about how many “meta” options you have because by definition there’s sort of just one meta build. The point is having options. Guardians can exchange a skill for SotA when they need more projectile help, Engis can swap Toss Elixir R when they’re with a group that’s having trouble to make reviving easy, or Elixir C in PvP when the opposing team is all condi, etc I’m not going through every utility of every profession. These aren’t meta choices but they are meaningful choices you can make depending on the encounter and that’s what Rev is missing.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I just wanted to stop in and say I’m definitely closely reading all the feedback about these changes and while I know some of you will miss some old functionality we feel it will be the right choice for the health of the game and profession for the long term. That being said I’m open to feedback and suggestions to make sure everything is awesome.

…

This sounds fair. I’m still very disappointed that Embrace the Darkness lost the very cool functionality it had with copying conditions. I’m very glad UA is not getting a cooldown, I hope that is not the solution to balance Rev skills moving forward.

Roy you have proved that you deserve a chance to play test the changes and that’s exactly what I’m going to do. If you say Condi Rev has a higher condi generation than before then that is good, it needed it. It can survive condis pretty well but I just don’t feel it had that level of output to be a real threat, especially without Embrace the Darkness transferring now.

I think the Torment trait idea is a great one, especially in Adept tier. You choose between all the resistance you can get from Mallyx skills with Demonic Defiance or choose to be more offensive with better Torment damage (and presumably duration?). Currently even with the Poison trait upgrade I don’t think there’s much of a choice to be made in Adept tier (pending on how the poison trait actually plays of course but losing DD in PvP is often a death sentence…). I think it should combine with the poison trait not replace it because by itself just boosting stationary torment damage is not going to do anything in pvp. Good idea though, I say implement it!

My initial thoughts:

Too many cooldowns! If the Rev is going to be gated by cooldowns on all the good skills, then what is the point of energy? Why does the Rev need double the resources to use skills now? Revenant has felt great in that if you had energy you could use a skill. It was fluid and it felt good. Now we’re getting cooldowns on all the good skill it seems like, so energy is now another thing to manage on top of cooldowns. I feel it’s taking away from what the Revenant is and was designed as. If a skill is too good to “spam” (which due to energy isn’t really spamming, it’s using it a couple times in a row) then energy cost and potency should be looked at, not cooldowns.

Crystal Hibernation still shouldn’t root. Letting your enemy sit there and get his big spike ready (or just use unblockable now…) doesn’t make this skill very good. Any profession can easily get enough damage and CC ready to cancel out the heal it gives you in less than a second after the block expires, that is if they can’t just do unblockable attacks anyways.

I feel that Mallyx has been gutted. I understand the reasoning behind changing it but I don’t agree, it just kills it in PvP. -8 upkeep on Embrace the Darkness feels like way too much now for what it does. I really think this should get the condition copy back, there’s just way too little condi generation on the expensive skills (that now are getting cooldowns which is a big let down considering how fluid the Revenant has felt so far). A Mallyx Rev seems like it will be little more than an incoming condi tank, meaning tanking against condis but not really dangerous to anything. I am willing to give it a try but it doesn’t look good to me right now.

Ventari… some good buffs to the usability of the legend but still nothing on the most basic hindrance: the tablet. I just hate mashing my 6 key over and over and over just to get the thing to follow me. Not only that, but I have to try and make it pass through dying allies that are running all over the place which never works.

You’ve done a great job so far Roy so I am willing to give everything a try and provide honest feedback when I do. Overall I’m excited to try the changes out, but hesitant on what I’ve listed above. I am especially curious about this dodge roll which sounds fun. Whirl on Sword 2 was a good idea as well, I like that the damage wasn’t just buffed. The rest of the changes look great and I appreciate how open you have been to community feedback! Thanks Roy.

No dodge trait should have a cooldown. If you want to burn your dodges to spam some effect from a trait instead of avoiding damage, you should have that choice.

Harddrive.2738:

Because of Roiling Mists trait, your precision goes a lot farther …

Isn’t the opposite of this true? Because Fury gives a Rev +40% crit chance instead of +20% precision isn’t nearly as valuable as it is to other professions. You can skimp on precision when gearing because you’re getting essentially a “free” +20% as long as you take the RM trait which is really the only viable GM choice anyways.

OP: Disclaimer being of course it remains to be seen what the content in HOT will look like… but yes I see using some Valk pieces being the best direct damage setup. Due to the Rev’s weakness to conditions I would favor extra Vitality over extra Toughness if you wanted to be stronger defensively and luckily there is Valkyrie to do exactly that. There is no Valkyrie stat but with Toughness instead, but that works out okay for the Rev I think.

The last thing I played around with on Gw2skills is Valk armor with Zerk weapons/trinkets and Runes of Rage. That seems to be the best combination to me at this point:

Unbuffed:
2400 power
34% crit chance
235% critical damage
19k health
2335 armor

Of course food, Fury, Might, etc all add to that. If the mobs in the BWEs have been any indication I don’t think I want to be sitting at 15k health especially if I don’t really have to give up damage to bump up to near 20k, but it could just be a L2P thing that everyone will be back to Zerkers once they figure out all the expansion content. I hope not, but it’s possible. Time will tell.

I use Reactive Lenses in Tools, but that only seems to work against stun/fear/daze. Nothing that knocks your character around. I’ve bugged it and it sounds like others have as well so I don’t know if it will get fixed but that would make it even better.

Without basically telling you to blow up your build and give you a link to the meta like most of these types of threads do… here’s my advice:

If you’re going to use Elixir Gun I would trade Bomb Kit out and also trade your shield for offhand pistol. This well help you offset the damage loss the best IMO plus you got a little more survive ability with the Elixir Gun. I know you traited into the shield, but that’s my suggestion.

The whole elite spec is great except for the “ultimate” parts oddly enough.

Shield 5 is terrible.
Herald GM traits aren’t very good.
Glint elite active is underwhelming.

The elite spec overall is great, I don’t think the things it lacks ruin it by any means. I just think the core of the spec is so good that the “best” parts of it don’t really stand out.

It is an interesting idea to a trait, but I agree the Rev doesn’t have enough hard CC to make good use of it.

I think removing all stacks of stability might be too much, some stability pulses which would make it balanced but others don’t and those are large cooldown skills that I don’t think it’s fair to just nullify them like that. But I really don’t know what to do with this trait. It’s certainly not worth a Grandmaster in its current form (as many of the Rev’s GM traits).

Hmm rune of the forgeman… I wonder if our elite spec will have to do with being tanky and providing protection while putting out burning…

Some of these suggestions are GREAT, but it’s way more than the effects legendaries currently add.

I’m completely in favor of making legendaries do some more of these awesome unique effects to skills beyond “make a projectile a different color”. This would be a great move with the new legendaries coming, further improve all of the legendary effects for all skills across professions.

Valfaros.6908:

ZDragon.3046:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

To add to this point engi is really good at applying conditions more so than most professions. They do it better than warriors, rangers (in most cases), thief (in most cases), even necromancers (talking application not xfer) only applying conditions with skills that are not reflects.. About the only profession that does it better is mesmer because it just spawn and shatter spawn and shatter spawn block spawn and shatter. I say honestly Revy needs no more removal at least on shiro, mallyx, and glint. If anything gets more removal is ventari and the other stance. AND even then the removal should be minor so not to devailue Mallyx.

You and your “devailue Mallyx” you must be a big fan of it. Mallyx offers a lot of resistance and due to that you can outplay most condibuilds I mean as long as your enemy doesn’t know your weakness, jup right no stunnbreakers. That’s why I’m not a big fan of mallyx at least not for the power builds I tested. For condibuilds I find mallyx pretty funny but that is because you can go way more deffensive while wrecking every other condibuild (without boonstripping).
+ Nothing is going to devailue Mallyx because you take him on every condibuild. It would be nice if he isn’t going to be mandatory in powerbuilds AND THAT is what the people are asking for.
I know you can’t have all on every legend. Having not much condicleans is okayisch but the ones you have shound be a bit better then they are now

-Staff4 is in most cases worse to use then using nothing because it roots you
-1 condi clean on dodge (10s ICD) is useless because you will always have cover condis on you specially in team fights
-1 condi clean on leg swap (10s ICD) same as the one with the dodge

So to take this 3 condi cleans you have to equip staff and take 2 traitlines you should mean if you take so much stuff you should get accsess to a lot more than that.

-Jalis heal since they buffed the heal of it I find it okay as it is.

-Ventari condi cleans, not really good for yourself because they take to long till you get it. Lets say you are in a different legend and you have to swap till you get the condi cleanse you will most likely be burnt to death.

I agree with a lot of this, except the qualifier “Mallyx is good as long as your enemy doesn’t know the weakness is stuns”. Nothing is a secret in PvP in this game, even after just a few days of beta experience. Everyone and their mother will know to stun a Mallyx Rev, that in and of itself doesn’t make Mallyx bad.

The bulk of your post is how I feel about the condition issue though. In this very thread I have said what I would like to see is the existing avenues of condition cleanse to remove a more than they do now, and go from there. I’m not sure the Revenant needs more skills or traits that remove conditions yet, but swapping legends and burning a stunbreak to do so and losing all your legend skills thus forcing a change to your combat approach just to clear 1 condition is pretty terrible.

Similarly using endurance to clear 1 condition isn’t great I would prefer 2.

Also I am going to keep saying this, why do dodge related traits have cooldowns? It’s already gated by endurance! I think it would add a better element of decision making if I had the ability to choose to use all my endurance to clear condis and activate traits rather than evading attack damage. This is not specific to condition clearing, or even the Revenant necessarily. Very few dodge related traits are not also gated by a cooldown. I don’t think any of them should have a cooldown.

Druid will be next.

Source: I want to see Forge.

Gaaroth.2567:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Well actually you sorta proved that engi, to condi clense has to spec in alchemy (which is true) and Rev to deal with condis has to spec to mallyx.
So, where’s the problem? Rev can deal with condis, is up to you to build for it or not.
I mean you are asking to have MULTIPLE way to deal with condis, well that’s not fair imho.

This is what I said a few posts below that to provide context:

Adamantium.3682:

…

Summary for me: Alchemy is a trait line, Mallyx+Corruption is a build. An Engineer can supplement their build with Alchemy, a very good all around trait line especially for PvP. A Revenant cannot supplement their build with Mallyx+Corruption (I may be wrong once we all get more time and theorycrafting with the Rev, but it sure looks this way now), that basically becomes their build.

For Mallyx+Corruption to be of any help against condis it has to be your build and you have to be in Mallyx most of the time to take advantage of the resistance (since it doesn’t actually remove anything). I really don’t see this as being analogous to Alchemy at all, where you can only use that trait line and change nothing else about your build or play style and still get the benefits of extra help against conditions.

I’ll use that word again “flexibility”. The Revenant doesn’t have it and this is an example of how it hurts them. There is very minimal opportunities to supplement your build in Revenant, so many things are all or nothing. You cannot simply trade out a skill to help with conditions, heck it’s tough to even use just a trait line like Alchemy because everything is tied together so tightly. To use Corruption, you must use Mallyx. Well if you’re using Mallyx you really have to camp it most of the time. If you’re camping Mallyx you really should have condi weapons, and down the rabbit hole we go… It defines your build unlike any other profession.

Revenant can continue ignoring the status quo for how to use a weapon

Pretty cool idea. I think it might be overly complicated, but I like the general idea behind a ranged condi dagger option.

Bombs radius was fixed so they are back to being a good choice in the right build, given the nature of conquest mode.

PowerBottom.5796:

why do ppl hate on skills that distinguish the class from others and give them a clear role?

It’s just the Revenant. Did you see where he said blinking up walls in PvP is fine because “a lot of classes can do that”?

Among the list of things you start paying attention to as you progress with your skill level and experience is what boons/conditions/abilities your opponent has. Don’t CC a Warrior if they have stability up, and learn the icons for Berserker Stance and Endure Pain. Also learn what Rampage looks like and run away.

We are well equipped to battle against Warriors, but not for the skills you mention. Elixir F is too unreliable IMO since it moves slowly. Static Shot, Smoke Vent (FT), Smoke Bomb (Bombs), Flash Shell (Mortar), Flash Grenade (Grenades) are all great sources of blind that can usually lock a Warrior down long enough for you to gain the upper hand. Also our myriad of CC you just have to be sure not to use it against stability.

Artaz.3819:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Healing turret overcharge Cleansing Burst is on a what second cooldown again? How does that compare to Revenant heals? Engineers weakness is not condition cleanse, it’s stability boon. Engineers have a CC/block build for meta PvP. It’s apples-and-oranges.

Engin Meta Link

I can assure you the Engineer’s chief weakness is incoming condition damage.

They are also not so great at providing stability, but have decent enough stun break and blocks/invuln to get by and protect from the stun+spike combos without stability.

In any event, this is not the Engineer forum it was merely a comparison. If incoming conditions is to be the Revenant’s weakness it makes sense to me to compare to another profession who shares that weakness. One of those is the Engineer, who by comparison is much better off than the Revenant (and still far on the weak end of the spectrum).

nearlight.3064:

Markus.9084:

Adamantium.3682:

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy

So if you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Alchemy as an engineer.
If you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Mallyx as a Rev.

Again, isn’t it fair ?

The comparison isn’t that cut and dry. Mallyx with a power build is pointless since you just get the resistance and some icidental boonrip but no other real form of damage or sustain. Corruption is in a similar boat, however it doesn’t due anything on its own to truly help with condis without mallyx compared to invocation.

If you run some combination of invocation, jalis, generosity sigils, lyssa runes, staff, glint, you’ll have enough sustain against conditions to get by. You only need to run 2 or 3 of those things to feel it.

And lets not forget, the way revenant traits work make valkyrie builds an actually viable choice due to rolling mists, so you can have a build that can hit as hard as a standard zerker that has much more health to endure damaging conditions, while shiro makes debilitating movement impairing conditions a non-issue. Alternatively you can take Jalis over shiro to handle it better, while being more of a defensive brawler.

Alchemy is also different than mallyx/corruption because it offers a ton of passive defensive things to Engineer, including protection injection, self-regulation defenses or backpack regeneration, as well as elixir might-stacking. It could be argued that traits like prot injection/selfreg make alchemy a traitline about surviving burst just as much as one about surviving conditions, as well as going offensively with HGH. Mallyx is about using the enemies condition output against themself in a much more brawler-oriented style than say a signet or corruption necromancer. Meanwhile retribution mimics alchemy much more than corruption of mallyx do. One of the retribution traits is literally the same thing as protection injection! Its just different in that it emphasizes dodging and being a bruiser more than alchemy, which is more about enduring coordinated bursts in its most effective format.

They’re not as comparable as you think.

Thank you for this, it is what I would have said if I was the first to respond but you said it much better than I could have.

Summary for me: Alchemy is a trait line, Mallyx+Corruption is a build. An Engineer can supplement their build with Alchemy, a very good all around trait line especially for PvP. A Revenant cannot supplement their build with Mallyx+Corruption (I may be wrong once we all get more time and theorycrafting with the Rev, but it sure looks this way now), that basically becomes their build.

quaniesan.8497:

I don’t ask for anything crazy for condi control in Rev, just do think it needs to be tuned up just a notch. I’d be well settled with removing 2 condi with legend swap. Given how crazy condi are flying around these days, other classes have enough time window to down a Rev even if he can remove 2 condis upon legend switch. Keep in mind that, by forcing a Rev to switch from a desired legend just to remove condi, it also forcing him to give up whatever chess moves he planned ahead for the existing legend. So it’s more than just condi removal. I would love shiro to have a weak condi removal as well, but even that will probably not in the horizon, but I’d definitely want to push for 2 condi removal upon legend switch.

For the reasons you give I want 3, but I understand if we try 2 first. Changing your whole skill bar just to remove conditions I think pretty well justifies removing 3. Not to mention that could also be your stun breaker you just burned to remove that stack of burning that is already reapplied.

holska.4127:

Adamantium.3682:

To me it’s the gear’s problem (by extension the stats themselves) not the content.

To me it seems more like scaling (like the OP also mentioned) and/or damage issue, I seemed to be taking less damage still in soldier’s gear but it would still kill me. Hence when they tone it down like they’ve done before the problem might be resolved, but I guess only Anet has the figures on that Upping the effectiveness of defensive stats on gear or tweaking the scaling might have a simillar result except that fixing the gear/stats would also affect other parts of the game unless there’s something in the boss mechanics that totally nullifies gear and/or certain stats against them.

It is game-wide, that’s why the Zerker meta exists. Defensive gear doesn’t protect you enough to warrant using, so you might as well get as much damage as possible since you’re going to die either way if you get hit.

I think people are not reading the post and just replying to the title of the thread. I don’t think it’s right, it should read “Toughness and Healing Power are Worthless” because I don’t think the damage is the problem. You should get one shot by bosses and die a lot in Berserker/Assassin/Sinister/Rampager/any gear without defensive stats. The problem is you also get one shot by bosses in any other type of gear. To me it’s the gear’s problem (by extension the stats themselves) not the content.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Spiuk.8421:

ITT: People who can’t read.

Vikkela.7261:

Oh my god this thread is terrible to read, maybe a total of one or two guys understood what OP was talking about.

I’m with you guys. It’s like everyone stopped reading at “Now before you go yell at me…”.

This guy got it though:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I think the point he is trying to make is that the damage is so high that even on a tank build it wont make much a difference, therefore, you might as well be a squishy character that does high burst/alpha damage.

So lets say then I’m on a guardian with tanky gear, well I’m going to get one shot a lot because of lower health…so why try to tank if it yields little results? Does that make more sense to the people hung up on “zerker” ?

Whats the motive for tying tank? If its all ground effect stuffs why not just a squishy mobile class….see the point? There should be room for characters who want to be big lumbering tanks, not saying you should be able to stand there and spam auto attack, but there needs to be some results for being a tanky character who “knows he can waltz up to the champion and take the heat off the squishy dps characters”

Its more an entire style of gameplay that might be rendered pointless that I’m worried about.

I completely agree. Toughness and Healing Power are just bad stats right now. They’re bad because they don’t do very much even when you max them, and by maxing them you lose a LOT of damage. Both of these stats need to actually mean something when you gear for them. Power/Precision/Ferocity turn you into a meta DPS death dealing machine. Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power should turn you into a tanking, eat AOE to revive someone, healing machine. However all it currently does is turn you into a wet noodle that has slightly higher green numbers and can take a few extra hits from trash mobs that nobody has trouble with anyways.

Here’s one thing that irks me and I would consider evidence: Revenant has a trait that makes every 100 healing power contribute 1.5% additional healing. Doesn’t this basically tell you healing power is not good? A Revenant who actually wants to heal and stack healing power has to use a trait to make the healing power actually do something!

+1 OP

I was disappointed that a random group of players seeing that particular Wyvern fight for the first time didn’t even come close to missing any of the breakbars. Players are only going to get better at this content, and I believe the state it is in now should never be attainable let alone as a first try. As players get more used to it it should become pretty easy, but not this easy.

I think the main problem is soft CC. Hard CC has its limits, even the most controlling profession doesn’t have a ton of access to hard CC. The problem is stuff like blind, chill, cripple, and immobilize that are just decimating these breakbars. I’m sure other professions were also using their necessary skills and helping, but when I was playing as a Reaper I felt that as soon as I went into Shroud I could easily take out even the legendary wyvern’s breakbar.

This problem extends to the breakbar gained by the Revenant skill Crystal Hibernation, it is just broken too easily due to the easy access that every profession has to these soft CC effects. I think soft CC should be a VERY small effect on a breakbar, if any at all. Hard CC may need to be buffed to compensate but it’s definitely just way to easy currently.

Are we in agreement that this trait is just called Rolling Mists now even though that doesn’t make any sense?

I’m just teasing, I don’t care. It’s just kind of funny I don’t think I’ve seen it written correctly a single time because “roiling” is such a weird word that no one really uses day-to-day.

Infuse Light is a great heal against condis, and it really let’s you get a reset button to fill up your health after they stack condis on you.

However let’s not pretend that is viable condi protection. You can’t remove those condis, so you heal 4 ticks of them but then continue taking all the damage. No real condi damage lasts less than 4 seconds, or really anywhere close to that. You’re going to nullify quite a bit of damage which is great, but you’re going to lose it all again 4 seconds later or most likely less.

This is not even taking into account that any decent player is going to play a Herald Rev like they play a Necro. Apply condis slowly until the Rev is forced to use Infuse Light (like a Necro with Plague Signet proc), then they will unload the real condi bomb.

I know it’s a delicate balance to retain the weakness to condis while still letting Rev have a fighting chance. I really don’t think a lot needs to be done, just up the amount of condis removed on a couple traits and see how that looks. I think 2-3 removed on legend swap and 2 removed on the dodge roll trait (with no cooldown why do dodge procs always have cooldown!?) is a fair place to start when HOT launches.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

As over 80% of my 3000+ hours in game has been on an Engi, I certainly agree with and appreciate this fact. I only hope the Revenant is weak to conditions (outside Mallyx) and not automatically defeated by them.

Thanks!

I think it should remain a weakness, but it does need some help to even have a chance. Legend swap trait should be 2-3 condis removed (I can justify 3 because you’re changing your entire set of skills just to clear condis), and dodge roll trait should be 2 condis removed with no ICD, I don’t understand why dodge roll traits have cooldowns at all… If I want to use all my endurance to clear condis I should be able to have that choice. Anyways…

An Engi without Alchemy is a little better off than a Revenant now. Partly due to being able to choose a utility to shore up condition weakness (Elixir C, Elixir Gun). The Revenant is unable to make these choices so I feel they should have more meaningful trait choices throughout all the trait lines to offset the inability to customize utilities.

If this is going to be the main thread, I will link the two big posts I’ve made rather than copy them.

2 posts here about legends and weapons: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-feed-back-bw2/first#post5464857

2 posts here about traits: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-GM-trait-discussion/first#post5465110

It depends on if you believe they saved the ones for last that they felt most comfortable with releasing. If you think that is true, and you think they did a really good job on Daredevil, I wouldn’t be concerned. If you don’t agree with either of those two assumptions then I think it makes sense to be a little worried about how the Forge will be.

Maybe we’ll see it this week!

Retribution
The Jalis line seems to try and fulfill what Jalis wants to be with the tanky brawler thing. It has some good choices and some really… head scratching choices. I think overall this line should help more with conditions

Minor: Solid traits that synergize well.

Adept: Where is this Dome of the Mists skill!?!? I’d love to be able to use this skill somehow. Close Quarters is also not bad, but the taunt trait is. Improved Aggression is pointless with how bad the Jalis Taunt is. Maybe this is something we’ll need in raids, but I hope Forced Engagement gets buffed long before then. Even if the taunt isn’t increased duration to players I think this trait just needs something else. It looks dangerously like a trait that certain content is going to force us into using no matter how bad it is.

Master: Two traits that compete for “when controlled” effects is okay since you want us to have to make choices, but it also is sort of a double edged sword because it’s the only choice we have in this part of the trait line. “what do when CC’d” isn’t very interesting because if I don’t care about CC I don’t have another choice. Even that choice is sort of moot when I can get protection ever 5s or a taunt every… 45s!? What about Retaliatory Evasion you might ask? Well if I’m dodging it’s because I’m avoiding big attacks. 2 seconds of retaliation after my dodge doesn’t seem very useful to me. This is an opportunity to add a more build defining trait I think.

Grandmaster: Empowering Vengeance would be good I think if Revenants could stack retaliation like Guards. But we can’t, so this trait doesn’t seem all that useful. Certainly not build defining. Reflexive Summon is great, even with the hammers changing their role from damage to more tanky I like it. Steadfast Rejuvenation is good as well, though the heal seems a little small. Say I run up on this guy in PvP and I’m using this trait. The fight lasts 40s, and it procs every single time the instant the cooldown is up. I’m only healing less than 4k from it. I don’t think that is very good.

Devastation
A good trait line for DPS that really pigeon holes you into what you should choose unfortunately.

Minor: Good traits that synergize well, it’s almost like you guys know what you’re doing with these minors!

Adept: Assassin’s Presence has no competition here. Rapid Lacerations is a fun idea but I feel the duration is so short it promotes only auto attacking and doing nothing else to keep the buff which isn’t fun. Plus at a max of 10% skill speed it doesn’t seem very impactful. Malicious Reprisal is so niche I can’t even really think of where I would want it outside of attacking a Guardian while they’re using Shelter. I would like to see Malicious Reprisal get reworked to something else, and Rapid Lacerations do something like add bleeds to attacks to make this line attractive for condis.

Master: Jade Echo is cool, I’m not sure how it will actually help you though. Unless it’s a really close team fight and you’re the first to go down? Maybe make this activate when reviving a teammate instead. Nefarious Momentum is nice, Revs can stack might really well without it though. I would like to see this add some sort of torment to assassin stance skills to create that opportunity for condi builds throughout the trait line. Ferocious Strikes is the most likely choice here, which is really good but also really boring when you already chose Assassin’s Presence. Two traits that give me +300 Ferocity is very boring considering what I said up at the top about traits really need to be more build defining for Revs.

Grandmaster: Swift Termination is good. Assassin’s Annihilation I think should have the 1/2 second cooldown treatment that Shiro’s heal got. Dismantle Fortifications is a neat idea but just can’t compete here. I think it should do something else, maybe remove another boon or two along with the 2 stacks of stability but the problem is even if the Rev removes 2 stacks of stability that’s not likely going to clear the stability from a player and Revs just don’t really have that much CC so this trait doesn’t add up like it sounds like it should.

Salvation
It remains to be seen how well this line does the healing thing that’s trying to do, I feel like there are some missed opportunities overall. The biggest issue I think is that this line is completely pointless for those not wanting full heal role. I think a few tweaks could change that and make it a good supplementary trait line for harder content or a bit more tankiness.

Minor: Disarming Riposte is a real head scratcher for me. Presumably this is the trait line you’re using while using all your energy with Ventari stuff and trying to heal people, yet this trait wants you to attack enemies while they are using skills. Doesn’t make sense to me. Also I’d like to see Hardened Foundation go Power > Healing or Toughness. I think this line should be open to those not wanting the full heal role, and thus not stacking healing power.

Adept: Nourishing Roots, 2s of regen with 3s interval really? Regen is not something that would make Revenants OP, if this line is meant for healing then give Regen out like candy I say. Guards and Eles both have passive stacking regen that will be on if they’re going full support (and even if they’re not, but I’m trying to compare similar roles here). I say give the Ventari tablet an effect like that, a regeneration like Soothing Mist or Virtue of Resolve. That also makes this line possibly appealing for those not looking for full healing roles. Blinding Truths seems good if it doesn’t have a cooldown. If I’m spamming Ventari Tablet all over the place the least it could do is protect me from enemies trying to punch me in the face. Tranquil balance seems good for that full healing role.

Master: I like that Tranquil Benediction wants to buff the staff healing orbs, one thing I think it should add is double the duration that they are on the ground for. Elluding Nullification is a great idea but needs more make it 2 condis with NO COOLDOWN. I am so confused why certain dodge traits have cooldowns, it’s already gated by energy. If we want to blow all our energy just to clear condis that should be a choice we can make.

Grandmaster: Selfless Amplification is a good trait for main healing roles, but it brings up a question for me. Basically what this is doing is the exact same thing that Healing Power does but better. So doesn’t that mean Healing Power isn’t good enough? To me this trait shouldn’t even have to exist, but it does because even in a full support role and maining the healing power stat you need more healing. I would like to see this trait not be necessary because healing power is enough on its own. Natural Abundance is too short, I tried this and 5s in combat is not enough especially if you’re avoiding AOE and trying to make your way over to it. This is a GM trait, it shouldn’t be rendered obsolete just because it took us 6s to walk to the tablet. Momentary Pacification is a good opportunity to allow non full healer roles to really want to choose this trait line but it falls very flat. 3/5 legend elite skills already CC and by the time the enemy is out of that the daze will have worn off. This is a poor grandmaster trait, I think there’s an opportunity here to do something that appeals to all builds and really makes this trait line worth considering. The first thing that comes to mind is the Ascalonian Monks in the Urban Battleground Fractal. They have a skill called “Use Heal” or something to completely obliterates you if it hits you. Something like that, make every heal the Rev does do the same amount in damage to enemies around the heal, non crit like Pulmonary Impact. Give it a recharge of 1s per enemy or something if it becomes ridiculous in testing, but I think that idea should be explored. Or more simply just every time the Rev puts out any healing, do the total amount in healing as damage in a 360 range or something. So one tick of regen for 100 on all allies does 500 damage.

Herald
The elite spec brings fantastic group support but not really great traits.

Minor: Along with the obligatory “now you can use elite spec stuff” (which I really wish wasn’t necessary) we get a couple good traits that go perfect with Glint.

Adept: Swift Gale isn’t so great, in PvP I might choose this but it doesn’t seem very meaningful. Maybe add stability so you can’t just get stunned in the middle of your nice super speed. Radiant Revival is a nice choice, but doesn’t seem as good as I thought it would be. 2s isn’t quite long enough, maybe 3 would be better. Hardening Persistence is good, I like that it synergizes with the high risk high reward Impossible Odds as well as the tanky hammers from Jalis and the nice Mallyx elite. A very solid trait.

Master: Bolster Fortification is way too short to be of any use. If we want protection we can upkeep Facet of Chaoes or burst One with Nature. This trait pales in comparison to those. Shared Empowerment is so-so, I feel like it should be 2 stacks of might instead, or just 1 for 10s. Harmonize Continuity might be good if there’s AOE stuns that will be prevalent in PvE but similar to Improved Aggression this sounds like a trait we will be forced to take due to a specific encounter, not because the trait is any good. Maybe adding stability to this trait would work so if the encounter does not have one AOE stun but individual stuns we can break ourselves out and help prevent stuns for allies for a few seconds. Something like 2 stacks of stability for 5s in addition to current effects.

Grandmaster: Elder’s Force is okay, 2% seems low. There are 11 total boons, but of those only 5 or 6 will be up frequently (you won’t have a lot of aegis, protection, quickness, resistance, stability, probably vigor). I think it would be okay to up this to 3-4%. Soothing Bastion would be a great skill if it didn’t do two things 1) interrupt the heal skill you’re probably trying to use because you’re about to die and 2) root you (yes this is feedback specifically for the shield, but still it drastically affects the usability of this trait). I like Enhanced Bulwark, I just don’t think it really changes a build all that much. I would rather drop this lower in the trait line (Maybe combine it with Harmonize Continuity or Swift Gale) to allow a spot for something more impactful here. A dynamic sort of energy management as I mentioned at the top, or something like the other trait lines have that does something depending on your energy level. Something with boons, or something that reacts with boons on you/your party/enemies. Maybe when you use an elite skill any boons that you share with your target are removed from your target and they take damage/condi for each one removed.

I agree OP, and it’s not just limited to “GM” traits (even though the distinction is largely arbitrary now). Instead of creating a new thread I would like to latch onto this one to provide my own feedback regarding traits.

Due to the Revenant lacking customization on the skillbar I think traits should have even more attention paid to them to create meaningful build choices than other professions. Revenants do not have the option to choose what utility is best for each situation, and although that is a decision I disagree with I think the next best thing would work and that is to make traits much more meaningful. Currently I feel this is by far the weakest aspect of the Revenant. Below is my feedback, some is specific and some is more of a generic feeling or idea. I understand that all of my feedback at once might seem like I want the Rev to be overpowered, I don’t. I’m not a game developer so I don’t have the best most balanced ideas but the main thing I want to express is that I want the Rev to have more meaningful build defining trait choies to make up for lack of customization elsewhere. I give examples that may or may not work, but the idea is there to make each trait a really good choice and change the way your build works a little bit compared to the other choices.

Roy I know you said you are against adding traits for increased energy management due to the worry they will become mandatory like Thief initiative traits. While I agree with you after thinking about this some more I believe there may be some creative ways of dealing with this like “reduce energy costs by X% per condition on you” or “when stunned your next skill costs no energy”. Those may or may not be good examples, but we could get creative and not just “+50 max energy” or “increase energy regen by +2” sort of traits that would certainly be mandatory.

Corruption
Overall Corruption is sort of iffy. It’s very niche, and while it seems to be the condition handling/generating trait line it doesn’t really do much of anything to protect against conditions.

Minor: The minors are great, I feel they add to exactly what the Corruption line wants to be doing and they fit well with Mallyx.

Adept: The trouble begins. Replenishing Despair is really weak, I don’t see a reason to ever use it. Something similar to Transmute for Engis should be looked at. Something like a chance to send an incoming condition back to enemy, or to convert it to a boon, or something. Demonic Defiance is great, it’s actually sort of build defining it’s what makes Mallyx work against condis. Without it Mallyx is nearly just as paper against condis as everything else. This is potentially a problem but without this trait I don’t think Mallyx works very well. Venom Enhancement is perplexing to me. Revs get one source of poison as far as I can tell, the third in the auto attack chain from Mace. Even if you want to add other sources from sigils/runes this trait seems pointless, especially when up against the choice of Demonic Defiance. A rework here seems best.

Master: Bolstered Anguish, the only way this works is if you take Demonic Defiance otherwise you’re dying to those condis. Even still, 6 condis is only giving you 18% damage while it’s likely killing you before you can make much use of that buff. I feel this should either do way more damage (5%, but even still if one of those is weakness then this trait is sort of pointless), or do something like reduce incoming damage per condi. Frigid Precision doesn’t seem to synergize with anything, it’s not a damaging condition which a condi Rev sorely needs and it’s very short. I suppose I could see a build that would make use of this however since you have to be in melee to use the only condi weapon! A handicapped weapon choice creates handicapped trait choices. Not a good path to go down I don’t think… Spontaneous Destruction is good, similar to other traits of its nature.

Grandmaster: Diabolic Inferno isn’t very good. To be worth an elite I think it should apply a buff similar to Engi Incendiary Powder when using an elite. This way you’re not pressured to waste the elite just to land a burn, but the elite allows you to choose your next few attacks wisely. Maniacal Persistence I know was buffed but I just see no realistic number that will make this build defining. I feel it should be reworked to something to generate condis, something with confusion as that seems to be missing from this trait line even though it’s on the legend skills. Pulsating Pestilence is so close, but the duration kills it. An Engi just hit you with Blowtorch for 10s of burn? Well now he takes 3 ticks of it while you still take all 10. This trait can go a couple ways I think. 1) make it a transfer with a duration of 3s, obviously that would go along with not being “all conditions” but something like 2-3. Still it’s only every 15s. The other would be to do away with the duration and leave the rest how it is. Either of those would actually make this build defining.

Invocation
Overall Invocation is solid, and a good generic trait line to pair with any legend. I feel it’s too heavy on the fury generation, 1 or 2 of those traits could be replaced with something more useful. It also seems like there are some traits that go against the way Revenant is designed.

Minors: Good choices, they seem to synergize well. I would actually bump Invoker’s Rage to 10s and get rid of the other two Fury generating traits further down in the trait line.

Adept: These are okay, I would up Cleansing Channel to 2 conditions and replace Fierce Infusion with another trait entirely (maybe that -x% energy cost per condition I was talking about earlier).

Master: Everytime I think about taking equilibrium I stop myself because I think “oy that’s just too much to micro manage”. The Rev seems set up to always swap legends at low energy, and that seems to go against this trait. I think it should be reworked. Invigorating Flow is good, though I get a chuckle at “with an energy cost” as if there were a time that weapon skills didn’t cost energy or something. Incensed Response should be reworked to something else.

Grandmaster: Roiling Mists is good. Charged Mists is sort of “meh”, a smaller scale of the micro managing I just don’t want to deal with. Maybe you want us to do that, that’s okay. This one just doesn’t feel worth that micro manage to me. It also seems like another trait that goes against how the Revenant is designed to play. The way I see it you start with 50 energy then slowly drain it until 0 then you swap to get 50 and slowly drain, rinse and repeat. There isn’t really a constant balance around 50 energy that this trait suggests. Shrouding Mists is yet another one. Not only do I not want to do this micro manage in combat but it seems go against how the Revenant plays.

Kumion.7580:

I would really like to see the Rev get a trait for enhanced energy regen. Thieves have seven traits in three different trait lines to improve or supplement initiative regen, so why is the Rev not given any options in this vein at all?

Roy actually replied to this after BWE1. He said once a trait is introduced for energy management, it quickly becomes mandatory (just ask a Thief if they ever drop Trickery). I reluctantly agree with him, though I would like to see something that’s not just a flat “gain X energy every 5s” and more like “reduce energy usage when affected by condis” or “when stunned your next skill costs no energy”. I believe there are ways to trait into energy management that don’t necessarily have to become mandatory, but it isn’t easy.

I think this is a great idea and I see no downsides to it. Improved counterplay against the Revenant and improved usability for the Revenant. Kudos for coming up with this OP.