Guild Wars 2

Frightlight.3796:

Come on guys have some hope at least sheesh Scrapper is not bad at all gyros need work and he has been paying attention too our input. The only problems engineers have that I have seen is our core specializations with traits that are severely lacking compared to others this new balance change might actually fix a lot of them and that would buff scrapper as well. If you guys didn’t notice one of the changes was already shown in the pvp 101 with scrapper evasive powder keg now deals 25% increased damage in addition to a blast finisher and looks like the icd was removed.

Irenio posted earlier this week here in the Engi forum. The only gyro he said was undertuned was the Heal.

I want to believe that he knows ALL the gyros have some fundamental problems that will keep them off a Scrapper’s utility bar (much like turrets, no… exactly like turrets) but he seemed to think Bulwark Gyro was okay with <12k health and low armor.

I’m sure he’s reading these forums a lot, but I’m not sure that he agrees with the majority about gyros being bad. That is frustrating to me and I can sum up why in one word: turrets. I really hope he sees that gyros need some way to stay alive for more than a couple hits, and some help on the cooldowns.

Ranger glyphs at 15s-20s cooldowns and gyros at more than 30s across the board? Ouch man, major ouch.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Thief only got a third dodge to be fair. Granted, a third dodge is universally good, but it isn’t very exciting.

It’s telling that this is the go-to example for “Scrapper isn’t the only one with a lackluster new mechanic”.

Daredevil didn’t just give a third dodge, though it looks like that at first glance. Being a Daredevil also forces you to choose one of three GM traits that fundamentally changes how your dodge works. Honestly I think it’s one of the cooler mechanic changes and has the potential to certainly be the most powerful outside Chrono because dodging is something you already do, it doesn’t make you give anything up. It’s purely better than the alternative of not having the extra dodge + damage/removal.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Basaltface.2786:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Basaltface.2786:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Basaltface.2786:

…im now actually a bit sad… cause now i know where all the scrapper love went to

It’s hilarious what Irenio keeps saying too

-Made a thread about Scrapper, first thing he says is “TOO BUSY WORKING ON DRUID LOL”

-Goes on Twitch, last thing he says is “I’M GONNA BE REALLY BUSY WORKING ON DRUID LOL”

actually im mad to be honest. I want now EPIC gyros, EPIC looking engineer kits and class visuals, EPIC traits useable for all game modes and an EPIC class mechanic.

Boy he wasnt kidding with busy working on the druid.. hence we got the scraps… now aint that fitting for a class name aswell huh…

Careful with that epic spam you might poke someone’s eye out.

But yeah we got gyped. We can go sit over with Daredevils and Dragonhunters for “Classes that got diddly kitten”

i not gonna lie.. im glad the rangers got something nice..viable and really really cool and visually pleasing like no other spec so far, darn celestial epicness all the way. My issue is that Irenio knows what he does…druid shows it perfectly. Look at the mechanic.. effin “healer death shroud”. The glyphs.. the staff AND new pets that make our lockdown look like childs play.

What do we get? A (without question) amazing hammer, a class mechanic that got 30 second cooldown and a handfull of a.i skills that will get cleaved to death in melee and are grossly underpowered ontop of that (cept the elite, not gonna trashtalk the sneak and his toolbelt)…the place THE DARN SPEC BRINGS US. Also 2 minor traits only dedicated to the mechanic. Boy… ouch Irenio…that was not cool..

Yeah i’d be careful with how amazing you call it. Tool kit as it stands fills the exact same niche, lacking only a lower cooldown whirl.

I love the Tool Kit, it’s a great utility kit but… no. Not at all. Tool Kit doesn’t have the damage, fields, gap closer, evades, or reflect. Literally the only things they have in common is melee range and block. I’ll include magnet and say they both even have CC, though the hammer’s far out performs the TK so it’s not really comparable there either.

I don’t wish the Scrapper to be the Druid. Honestly I prefer the tank style of play to the healer style. I believe Irenio put his best effort into both specs, but I don’t think it came through all that well with Scrapper. It certainly looks like it did for Druid.

I did not watch the stream, and if I do it won’t be until sometime this weekend. Can someone tell me if Irenio emphasized the Druid not being done yet? At the end of the Engineer stream he made it very clear that the Scrapper is not done and he wants lots of feedback and lots of changes to make.

Maybe he planned on practically finishing up the Druid before the reveal this weekend (as it is to a much larger audience than POIs), leaving just time to polish and tweak a few things. Maybe he plans to spend most of the time between BWE3 and launch on Scrapper?

Yes I’m being optimistic. I’ve been optimistic since we first saw Scrapper, but it’s getting harder seeing all the cool mechanics Druid has and Scrapper got a copy of skills that nobody has liked for months.

I’m happy for the Ranger players. They deserve it.

With that said, I’m overall disappointed that all the elite specs don’t seem to be in the same tier. Reaper, Druid, to an extent Chrono all really added something new and unique to the profession and/or game as a whole. I’m not talking about how good the spec is or how many people will use it, or if it fits into the meta. I’m talking about how it really changes the profession and adds something new to the game.

Then you have the rest that all seem to just be more skills similar to what the profession already does. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to finally get something new to play with. However if we could go back in time I would market elite specs differently, it seems to me that they tried to make them sound like something amazing and ground breaking that really only applied to about half of them.

TL;DR I’m happy to have some new toys with Scrapper, but it seems like just some new Engineer skills. Nothing about Scrapper feels like an elite spec to me compared with some of the more innovative ones like Reaper, Chrono, Druid.

Asura master race.

I’m into PvP and PvE fairly equally. Mostly FOTM50’s and dungeons in PvE.

I can see how the Function Gyro is good in PvE. There are times when it would be really helpful to revive a fallen teammate from distance without putting myself in danger, or double revive to get through Agony ticks and make sure they don’t die.

However, I can take a few hits without dying. I’m not sure Function Gyro can. Additionally while I can see Function Gyro being useful for me in certain situations, I understand that the percentage of PvE players that regularly run the most difficult PvE content and need timely revives is probably pretty low.

Overall I don’t think I can come up with a good argument for Function Gyro being good for PvE players. Even for me the most use I see myself getting from it is PvP, even then only in niche situations because of the cleave and cooldown. I believe my PvE play style lends itself most to taking advantage of this mechanic but I really don’t think I can make an argument for it being a good PvE mechanic. Looking at what the other professions got, even the weaker ones, it’s a pretty big disparity.

Knox.8962:

To be fair, people would be pretty excited about a utility that said “heal yourself for 12k HP, instant cast, 30s CD”. Which is basically what the bulwark gyro does.

I think this is disingenuous. That’s not even close to what Bulwark Gyro does.

1) It is damage negated over time, inherently weaker than a direct heal.
2) It can take damage, thus reducing the amount it can actually absorb.
3) Following #2, it can die. In PvP smart opponents can hit it a few times and kill it so it doesn’t absorb anything from you.

I’m not even saying any of those points are bad, I’m saying it’s in no way similar to a direct heal for whatever amount of health it has.

Drastically increasing armor to reduce direct damage it takes is nice, but the health is still way too low I feel like. As I said above 12k absorbed by your party is really just 2400 each player. That’s an auto attack in PvP, or a fraction of a boss attack. To most level level 50 fotm bosses that’s actually less than a protection buff for a single hit. This makes this skill very tricky to balance, it becomes useless in group play and OP when you’re solo. There needs to be a creative solution beyond just health or armor increase I think. I don’t know what that is.

I’ve changed my mind. Hammer damage shouldn’t even tie with grenades. The weapon is far too versatile to also make it a no brainer for damage. I got carried away with being excited to use it I don’t think I was being fair.

To be clear I think it should be close, I don’t think it should hit like a wet noodle. With what we have figured out from the POI video and the buff Irenio said he gave it (whatever that amount is, anything worth mentioning at all is good enough) I think it’s probably just fine how it is.

Thanks Irenio, I appreciate you doing this after you’ve already worked all day and are presumably on your own personal time.

• I actually just logged into the forums right now to change my mind about hammer damage in the thread that has been started for it. I agree it should not be top damage option, as long as it is worth using I will be happy. The weapon is far too awesome for me to say it needs to even be tied with grenades. That’s ridiculous. That you did any buff to the auto attack damage sounds great combined with some of the numbers people have deduced since last week.

• I am glad to hear Medic Gyro is on your radar. The initial heal sounds like it can work depending on how the pulse over time plays out, I’m eager to test it and see how it feels. Please consider changing gyro cooldown to start when they are deployed. Without that Medic Gyro will always be self destructed immediately as Healing Turret is, as will other Gyros once they have performed their initial function. We want incentive to keep them alive. Adjust cooldowns if necessary. I don’t like this on turrets, but I can see how they are long term so it is at least justified or you could immediately re use them. However Gyros are very short term I very much think the cooldown should start as soon as you use them.

• I appreciate that you want to see how Bulwark Gyro plays for us before considering changes. I hope that it has more health than what we saw in the POI. 11k is just not enough, especially with low armor. I fear it will get cleaved to death before it has much of a chance to do anything, just like turrets do. Except this one you don’t even have a choice to try and put it out of harm’s way. This makes me think the same mistakes that were made with turrets are being made again, and that is frustrating. I do agree that it shouldn’t last very long if it is soaking up damage for your whole party at once, but by the numbers that means (if it had 12k health) on average each party member has 2400 damage absorbed, at best. It will be far less than that in reality because the Bulwark Gyro will probably be hit with direct damage for a few thousand in the mean time. I am willing to be wrong (like I was with hammer damage) and I am willing to test it honestly and with an open mind, but I really don’t see a favorable outcome with what we know about the Bulwark Gyro right now.

• Thank you for reviewing feedback on the Function Gyro. I’m eager to see how this thing works, but as our elite spec mechanic I’m not thrilled about the scarcity of situations I’ll even be able to use it. I appreciate you looking into the cooldown and duration so that we can at least use it reliably when we do have to use it.

This type of post is exactly what I was hoping you would do when I started a thread on Scrapper Design Intent. Thank you again for taking some of your personal time to communicate with us and give us a little behind the scenes for some of your design choices.

Haven’t We Learned? (feeling pessimistic)

Rocket Leap Everywhere! (feeling optimistic)

Rizo.9534:

Adamantium.3682:

If Engi can’t stack Superspeed I think a lot of the Scrapper is gutted and needs to be reworked. We have traits and skills “tripping over each other” (a good way to put it) all over the place.

If there are balance concerns and reasons that they will never stack this buff then it is incredibly stupid to build an entire elite spec that focuses so much on it. I have to believe that they are going to change it to allow stacking, it’s the only thing that makes sense.

It’s not stupid, it will just prevent from brainless faceroll on keyboard.
Need to escape or catch someone? Use superspeed.
Need to heal, use waterfield and leaps.
Need to more might? leap threw firefield!

it’s skill-play. And i think, it’s really good design atm.

Except that traiting for Superspeed and actually using your Superskills skills overwrite each other and render each other useless. This is very poor design.

I don’t see what leaps and water fields have to do with anything. We’re talking about Superspeed cancelling itself out.

If Engi can’t stack Superspeed I think a lot of the Scrapper is gutted and needs to be reworked. We have traits and skills “tripping over each other” (a good way to put it) all over the place.

If there are balance concerns and reasons that they will never stack this buff then it is incredibly stupid to build an entire elite spec that focuses so much on it. I have to believe that they are going to change it to allow stacking, it’s the only thing that makes sense.

Knox.8962:

Haralin.1473:

It would be great, if devs would talk with us, maybe some of us (including me) would better understand some decisions they made, and maybe some devs would use some usefull proposals from the community.

The thing is, the devs don’t need to post in these threads to get feedback. There are dozens of threads with hundreds of ideas already up here based on the live stream preview. Anyone with a browser can read the posts here and try to find a few good ideas amidst the mountain of ill conceived ones.

You may want to know more about the design decisions that lead up to the current iteration of the scrapper, but providing a history lesson isn’t going to do anything to improve the class.

I’m sure as close as we are to release at this point that time is at a premium, and I’d prefer that Irenio was frantically implementing the few good ideas he sees here rather than posting a dramatic monologue for everyone to pick apart.

I agree with you (“dramatic monologue” notwithstanding), but one thing I would really like to see is “hey guys we know you’re not so happy with A, we’re open to making X changes but we don’t really want to do Y type changes”.

This allows us to give him more valuable feedback about X, and stop wasting time and filling up the forums with Y changes.

Luthic.7290:

…

If you let it run during a fight and go in and out of stealth breaking target locks which can really throw off some players, giving yourself a chance to heal, and allow for irregular movement in the moments between when your in and out. it would work better in non-spam builds but using it to stop a shatter or a kill shot could be great.

+1 for bringing this up, I hadn’t considered it. This is a great use of the stealth gyro (with the disclaimer that all gyros have, as long as it isn’t made of wet paper).

It’s irritating when a good ranger knows how to time their stealths and pet taunts. I would imagine using the SG in the middle of a fight would yield similar results.

icewyrm.5038:

BlackBeard.2873:

A brawler works by having lots of sustain (and you have some great trait combos for that), lots of defense, and stacks might to do damage. The auto-attack is PERFECT for that role.

Who is going to just let you leap up to them and smack them in the face with the hammer long enough for AA chain might and vuln stacks to make any difference? More importantly, it applies no damaging conditions, you wouldn’t run cele ammy if you are building around hammer.

Do you seriously see yourself fighting and winning against a D/D ele as a hammer/anything engineer in a melee fight?

Let’s be honest, D/D Celele is not really the metric we should be using to judge a given build’s viability.

I think I get what he is saying though. Every time you auto attack with the hammer you’re going to get Might, even more if you’re interrupting the chain and almost always using the first hit only which is most likely in PvP. You’re providing sustainable might stacks to yourself throughout the duration of combat, and you’re very defensive even though all your defensive skills also deal damage.

I definitely agree hammer is a sustainable weapon, damage output and condition application will determine if Cele is the best amulet or not (I’m thinking Soldier) but it definitely is sutainable. Not being a D/D Celele doesn’t mean it’s not sustainable.

Regardless of what the tooltip says at this point in development, I think it’s pretty safe to say it will have an ICD.

Goosekilla.2796:

Bump. Honestly I haven’t even heard a thing. In fact, I hardly remember any threads that have ever gotten an anet reply indicator. Hobosacs… Maybe 3-4 other threads. Ever. In the past several years. Am I looking in the wrong place?

It’s not unusual to see minimal-to-zero dev interaction in profession sub forums. However with HoT prep the devs have been doing a fantastic job interacting with each forum as the elite specs have come out, and not just simple yes or no type stuff they’ve given some real insight to the design process as I gave an example of above. I expect nothing less from Irenio.

My only hope is that it starts for us this week, I think waiting until after BWE3 to have meaningful discussion with the developers is a bad idea. Every elite spec thread I’ve had time to read across all professions has included significant changes, and multiple iterations through each BWE. We’re talking a lot more than just number tweaks here and there, there has been significant functionality iterations.

I don’t see a reason why Scrapper would not need the same amount of work and iterations on it, and rather than complaining about only having one BWE I would rather spend that time having open discussion with Irenio and improving the Scrapper before we get our hands on it. Stuff like overall design decisions and intentions that we can know for sure from what little we’ve seen, not stuff like DPS on the hammer.

I would like to see Irenio become active in this forum very soon. From looking through the Dev Tracker, the other professions are looking at timelines of fixes both before and after BWE3. Given that we’re down to 4 weekends before HoT I would really like to see Irenio start working with us and tweaking things before BWE3.

There is a lot that we need to test and play first, but there are also a lot of ideas we could be sharing back and forth in the mean time. Stuff like trait ideas and gyro solutions, or why he thinks gyros won’t suffer from the same problems as turrets, where he thinks hammer dps should be in the overall scope of the profession, or at the very least some insight into design decisions.

One of the things I have appreciated most throughout this BWE process is when many people (myself included) wanted some sort of energy management trait. Roy told us that it’s not a plan right now because traits like that quickly become mandatory much like Thieves and Trickery. I really appreciated that he didn’t just decide not to implement the suggestions for traits that give energy and let us keep wondering and suggesting, but he let us in on the design decision. It would be nice if we could start some of that interaction with Irenio sooner rather than later.

We have seen so many suggestions for gyros, it would be great if we could know what sorts of fixes are on the table and what isn’t so we could head into BWE3 with realistic expectations. For example if there’s no possibility of making gyros immune to conditions (just an example) it would be helpful if Irenio could let us into the design decisions a little sooner rather than have a lot of people waste time giving suggestions that has no intention of being implemented and end up just cluttering the forums. If he’s looking more towards increasing their health, we could approach BWE3 with that knowledge and give feedback based on increasing health instead of coming up with more damage negation ideas. If he wants to make them shorter and more powerful, or longer and more like turrets (please no) it would be great to get out ahead of it and know how to focus our feedback to be more helpful to him and the team. If Function Gyro cooldown is off the table, but making it more powerful isn’t, or vice versa, these would all be things we don’t have to play the Scrapper yet to start a discussion on.

miriforst.1290:

The thing is that we got a rather hefty cooldown which starts when they are destroyed. And then we have a rather limited duration. And then they are rather frail and can be destroyed. That’s a lot of limiting mechanics.

Id argue that one have to go, meaning:

a) Long/infinite duration, long recharging, destructible (making the virtue of looking after and maintaining your gyros important).
b) Short duration, short recharging, destructible (meaning a frail and short duration but frequently available gyro, similar to phantasms in play)
c) Short duration, long recharging , invulnerable (fancy stances or signets with positional elements, allows for usability even in the thickest of battles)

Personally i would prefer a or b to c, allows counter play but also rewards good play from the engineer.

Turrets are A, Gyros should be B. It’s irritating enough that our shiny utilities are basically reskinned turrets that move with us, they should function as different as possible otherwise.

Ceimash has a FT/EG might stacking build that I do very well with. I rarely lose 1v1 and I find the best role on my team is roaming point to point helping tilt the scales and decapping wherever my team needs.

Basaltface.2786:

anyways… here are my ideas:

Medic: Gets an endure pain like effect for itself…not the scrapper obviosly also gyro
heal gets buffed by 100%

My man. Endure Pain buff is catching on, I like it

I saw a really good idea for the Blast Gyro on Reddit, better than anything I could come up with.

It flies at your target dropping bombs, each bomb is a relatively big hit of damage and a blast finisher. It has 3 bombs to drop before it explodes itself, which is also a blast finisher. No CC (other than self destruct and Final Salvo granted CC). Give it something like 2-3 seconds between bomb drops and final detonation, that’s about 8-12 seconds of lifetime which fits right in with the other gyros. I’m guessing it can use the new and improved AI functionality to change targets quickly should the Engineer change targets.

This changes it from being basically a gadget to actually sort of fitting the gyro theme. This is my new favorite idea for Blast Gyro.

But with Glint that’s how the profession works, everything the Revenant does is based on its balance of energy. It can’t just choose to make all of its skills except one not use energy or anything.

With this idea we don’t have to use the fuel at all, but if we do the gyros get worse the more we have equipped.

I like the idea of a fuel type mechanic, and I think you have some strong foundations for an idea. I don’t think it fits at all with Scrapper though, maybe it would be a good idea for the next one. Make the next elite spec actually give the Engineer a fuel bar that changes how their toolbelt works or something, something that is valid no matter what other skills the Engi uses.

Mercurius.7314:

Adamantium.3682:

Mercurius.7314:

Adamantium.3682:

What happens to fuel when you don’t use a gyro?

It accumulates until it’s full and then stays at full until you use it? Necromancer lifeforce doesn’t do anything until you use Shroud, this would be the same thing.

Sorry, I may not have been clear. What happens when you don’t slot a gyro?

Ah, I was suggesting making the Function Gyro (the F prompt replacement thing that can stomp/res at range) cost 5 fuel to activate. The nomenclature is confusing because they seem to be collectively referred to as function gyros but the F prompt replacement is also called function gyro.

Players who didn’t slot gyros will always have enough fuel to use the Function Gyro (because I suggested a 15 second cooldown which is enough time for the 5 fuel to refill) but players who are actively using other gyro skills would have to decide whether they want to use the function gyro or spent fuel on their other gyros.

Seems like you’re at a disadvantage the more of the elite spec you use, right? I mean no gyros = good function gyro you will always have fuel for. The more gyros you use, the less use you actually get from them because they’re sharing the same amount of fuel.

Mercurius.7314:

Adamantium.3682:

What happens to fuel when you don’t use a gyro?

It accumulates until it’s full and then stays at full until you use it? Necromancer lifeforce doesn’t do anything until you use Shroud, this would be the same thing.

Sorry, I may not have been clear. What happens when you don’t slot a gyro?

I use Ceimash’s FT/EG build for sPvP, which is pretty much my standard go to condi build except with FT instead of grenades.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhatY7Ww+Kw6FLsFF4HWiBgYHVFPxYOOG/IA-TJhHwAU2fAwJA4YZgAPAAA

He’s got a nice guide on it, it’s a great build that plays really well against pretty much any opponent. I rarely lose 1v1’s with it, it’s a very powerful build to roam from point to point where your team needs you.

We only get one BWE (3 total was confirmed) to test the Scrapper. Aside from that confirmation, there are only 4 weekends left before HoT, and the next one is Twitch Con, so there’s not really any room for another BWE anyways.

lorddarkflare.9186:

We can only hope that the class gets some re-work before the BWE.

Looking at the actual timetable, this point you make actually becomes significant. I hope that there are at least some changes and communication with Irenio before the BWE, seeing as we will only have a couple weeks after.

I’d love to see him start getting active here this coming week and not wait until after the BWE.

What happens to fuel when you don’t use a gyro?

Good post. I agree the traits are great for the most part. Decisive Renown is by far the weakest. I can buy into the profession mechanic of the Function Gyro despite how niche it is. What I can’t buy into is an even more niche minor trait taking up space of something that could be much more widely useful.

With that freed up minor slot I would really like to see a minor trait that adds a unique effect to Superspeed to make the Scrapper spec as a whole more desirable in PvE. Make a trail of electricity on the ground when the Scrapper has superspeed, something that is not a field but does some pulsing damage for a few seconds, like the lightning canon fire in the Mai Trin fight. Or have Superspeed “build up a charge in the Scrapper” and give a +10% damage buff to Scrapper while active or something. The Regeneration trait is nice, but something that would make the PvE crowd happy would be great here.

I like Mass Momentum but like you said it may be too much of a good thing. Engineers can already selfishly stack might pretty well, it would be nice if this trait was more group oriented. It doesn’t necessarily have to be group might, but something to the group would be nice.

Where did you get the idea of reigning in complexity? Have you played Chronomancer? I don’t think complexity is any significant part of their plan for elite specializations. What they have said however, is that elite specs are supposed to focus on a certain part of a profession and expand that.

I don’t know where this complexity thing is coming from, if they have said this please point me to it.

If you have come up with any scenario where you think heal gyro is better than healing turret, you’re overthinking it. By a lot. You’re thinking more about what you want it to be rather than what it is.

Slightly off topic, it would be nice if Sigil of Impact also worked with stuns and dazes. That would be a fun way to increase gear diversity, put some value on the stuff no one uses.

iKeostuKen.2738:

miriforst.1290:

-Snip for lowering page space for browsing-

1)The first problem im seeing here is that your focusing on SPvP when you say fighting on a point. This game should not be balanced around that mode. Also, Scrapper can range anywhere from Melee to Range, its not truly a melee elite spec when you still can benefit form using both ranged and melee options.

Your drones can offer help, not only on point, but in the outfield to support others. Melee range is where your tool belt skills shine. Mid range -> Long range is where your gyros would function best. When your upclose, your hammer acts as a support utility weapon in a way, the toolbelts as some decent utility options.

Another problem is that for some reaosn, you have all your gyros summoned at the same time in range. And they should be killed a bit easier up close. Reason for that is, they take up numbers when it comes to max hitboxes per attacks.

This is getting a little far fetched. Scrapper is very clearly a melee oriented spec. If you watched the POI it was clear that the design intent is for us to use gyros in close combat, and every single one (save the heal and elite) is most useful in melee range… Blast has less time to travel making it easier to land, Bulwark and Purge actually have something to do if you’re actively taking damage. If you’re on the backline not being hit they have no purpose. Shredder obviously needs to be right in the thick of it for maximum effect. I feel like you’re projecting what you wish the gyros were rather than what they really are and what they have been designed for.

Guessing this one was directed at me. When i said under the radar, i meant:
“I would not want the overreaction to cause them to over buff the gyros to a point where they are the focus where other classes are calling for nerfs, then causing the gyros them self to receive a over the top nerf and become unplayable.”

In my opinion this is a really weak reason to hold off on feedback. This is 100% Anet’s job to manage, not ours. Our responsibility is to give honest feedback to make the Scrapper as useful as possible. It’s Anet’s job to take our feedback into account and make it balanced with the rest of the game. If the Scrapper becomes so OP that it has to be nerfed into oblivion someday (seems pretty hyperbolic but let’s go with it) that will have absolutely nothing to do with the suggestion’s we’re giving to improve it today.

Here we go again with “Gyros are bad, but i have no experience using them”. The only one that probably needs to be looked into is Medic Gyro tbh because the math does not lie. Also, if your going with weapon kits, those have built in utilities so your not really limited to anything.

Math doesn’t lie for the healing gyro, just like it doesn’t lie for the rest of them. I really don’t get why you’re so opposed to this, we already know what happens to turrets. Gyros have basically the same health. What do you expect to be different?

You dont even have to run weapon kits to be a successful engineer.

This line worries me. You can make it work in PvE where anything works, but anyone who has played significant time on the Engineer will tell you that you are gimping your Engineer by choosing not to use kits.

I want to run this scenario on the bulwark gyro, say if it was “buffed”:
-Bulwark gyro recieves a hp buff to 30-50k.
-Roaming engineer slots on bulwark and dukes it out 1v1.
-For 15 of those seconds, half of the damage goes into the bulwark.
Result Engineer literally has 15 seconds of 50% Damage reduction, base.

—Now add a Elixir gun that can continuously spam weakness onto that foe while bulwark is up.
——-Now add protection ontop of Weakness and Bulwarks uptime

It starts to get a bit out of hand as you can see because the damage reduction becomes a bit to high, causing the engineer to literally become a tank.

Textbook strawman argument right here. Who said make it last 15 seconds with 30k-50k+ health!? I’ve seen people say it needs more health (30k has been thrown out there), I’ve seen some say it should be shorter so it can be buffed to more meaningful levels, and I’ve seen various ideas for direct damage reduction to the gyro itself. What you’ve done is take the most powerful of all suggestions, put them together with no downside, combined every possible beneficial skill combination to it, and called it OP. Give me a break…

iKeostuKen.2738:

Also with build diversity comes to the mode your trying to play. It seems like your describing SPvP in which you must take Alchemy to deal with condis atm. I agree that we must take this for SPvP, but we can also take 2 other trait lines depending on our build, we arent pigeon holed directly into 2 trait lines, and if you are using Elixir (C?) it clears all condis on you as well as its toolbelt. Add purging gyro to this and we would possibly have some pretty decent condi cleansing on our hands.

This paragraph makes me question your experience with the Engineer. Please understand that this does not mean you are any less deserving of giving your feedback and opinions and I’m not saying that. It just seems like from your posts that you haven’t played a whole lot of Engineer and you may not realize why some of us around here can already say with pretty good certainty what is wrong with gyros. We’ve lived it for 3 years now.

Cristobal.8640:

Gyros should have fuel, fuel should dictate duration and damage on explosion. You can self destruct your Gyros, but there should be a trait that makes them explode when attacked with some conditionals. (On death by burn/crit?) It would conjure nice tactics, you could detonate a gyro right away, sacrificing its effects to do more damage with more fuel. Your enemy could burst down a Gyro right away to negate the effects, but cause an explosion, we could get interesting traits playing with the the fuel mechanic.

This sounds awesome. I have no idea why they even used the word fuel in both the MMORPG.com article and the official GW2 article. It’s nothing more than a duration. I was really hoping for some sort of resource management with fuel, like a Revenant’s energy bar.

Granted this doesn’t work if you’re not using Gyros, but it really feels like there was something more planned for this fuel mechanic but it just never came to fruition.

Obtena.7952:

How do you know what their uptime in a fight will be in the first place to make a sensible claim?

Granted, if they are anything like SW’s, they will just get bursted by AoE but that’s not really the point here. You don’t even know if this is a problem yet.

We know because turrets have existed for 3 years and these are just as squishy, except without even a -33% incoming damage trait. And you can’t place them outside of melee range to even try to protect them since they follow you around (except Shredder of course, but that’s going to be placed right in the thick of battle most of the time anyways).

We do know this is a problem. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time on the Engineer knew the instant the Bulwark Gyro HP was deduced that this was turrets all over again.

What I’m disappointed by is Irenio even said they have a lot of health when he started talking about them because he knows they need to stay alive, he obviously knows why people don’t like turrets. He suggested as much during the POI. Then why in the world do gyros have the same amount of health?

It’s a start, I’m willing to try it in the BWE. I feel like it would come out to much less than 33% damage reduction overall, and we already know that isn’t nearly enough with their current health pools because that’s exactly what turrets do. Plus it scales poorly from 1v1 to group fights. Very difficult to kill in 1v1 with a block every second, trivial in group fights. I can’t really think of any solution that doesn’t have that problem though to some extent.

Really all I want to see is direct damage immunity, condis and CC are still applicable.

I agree, we have some stuns but this trait needs to be dazes as well. It’s a Scrapper trait, and that’s what the Scrapper is about. Especially if it’s forced onto us as a minor.

Vajra.3914:

Adamantium.3682:

Massive health buffs or some sort of buff on them that greatly reduces incoming damage.

We have turrets that as of now have similar health numbers that can be traited for 33% reduced incoming damage, so basically a permanent protection boon, and they’re still paper.

The best way to diminish damage in that game is to negate it completly (dodge, blind, Aegis,…) ofc, while this could make Gyros hard to destroy in a 1v1 situation (but we must remember that this game is not balanced arround 1v1), in a group fight it won’t blow up on the first AoE field u meet.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, how is a gyro going to do any of those things? If you mean it would work great with your original suggestion of pulsing Aegis, I disagree. Any number of small attacks could remove the aegis, especially in a group fight with fields flying around everywhere. Blocking 1 attack isn’t going to keep them alive much longer with a health pool of less than 10k.

Well, you’re right and I like a lot of your suggestions. It’s just not what an elite spec is supposed to do, it’s not supposed to “fix” the profession. This is all stuff that is great ammo for a balance patch though for sure.

Massive health buffs or some sort of buff on them that greatly reduces incoming damage.

We have turrets that as of now have similar health numbers that can be traited for 33% reduced incoming damage, so basically a permanent protection boon, and they’re still paper.

portedGoblin.7413:

It is a defensive/utility weapon, why do you think it should do the highest dps?

I don’t see anyone calling for highest DPS. I see people saying they don’t want to be forced back into grenade kit if they spec into Scrapper but still want to do damage. I think it’s fair that if you take the +10% hammer damage trait that it is at least equal to grenade auto spam.

I think many Engineers are also tired of our weapons being utilities. I only speak for myself, but I would like a weapon that stands on its own and where you’re not losing out on auto attack damage by not running a kit. Surely Scrappers will still use a kit or two for the utility, but I would like to just use a kit for that purpose: utility. Not my main weapon.

I hope you’ve both /bugged it! I have not noticed this as I almost always cancel it but I will go try and if I do I will /bug it asap.

And please post it here! https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-Bugs-Updated-Consolidated/first

Irenio had Rabid amulet during the POI. Crits for 500 mean nothing.

Jebro was getting <2k, 2k+, 3k+ on the auto attack chain if I remember right with Marauder amulet. That’s not bad.

Rough early calculations show Hammer auto to be about 20% behind grenades. This seems like a big gap to me compared to the damage I saw, but grenades do attack pretty fast. Even if this is not true, however far behind the hammer is from grenades I feel like it should be buffed that much at least when you include the trait for it. This way if you spec completely into hammer you have a viable option besides grenades for the first time in 3 years (okay there was bomb autos for awhile).

I’m not saying the hammer needs top damage, I know it’s a defensive weapon and it looks great for that. I just think if you spec into it and use the GM trait to give 10% more damage, that should at least tie it with grenades. Please!

I guess I’m somewhere in between you two. I don’t think the hammer’s base damage looked that low, the auto attack chain with Marauder’s ammy was doing <2k, 2k+, 3k+. You can also put out damage with three skills without taking damage (2=reflect, 3=evade, 4=block). This looks good, but we’ll have to see how it plays out. Maybe it does need to be tuned up. That’s what the BWE is for.

As for this place becoming a ton of negativity? I feel like I want to defend against that statement. On Wednesday and Thursday I agree it was bad. So many assumptions, so much conjecture, all leading to doom and gloom. Now? I think for the most part people are giving good feedback and it seems like it’s mostly agreed on that the hammer looks great (damage notwithstanding, the weapon itself is designed practically perfectly). Traits are pretty good, could use some incentives for PvE players.

Gyros are the big red flag, and of all the gyro feedback I have seen very little “this stuff sucks, fire the guy who made it” nonsense. I’ve seen a lot of valid feedback with tons of suggestions that actually seem pretty realistic (give gyros Endure Pain). Even you say they can be buffed to be much tankier, so aren’t you basically saying the same thing as everyone else? Also no, the heal gyro and the tank gyro are not going out to any parties together in their current forms. The tank will die in two hits, and the healer will put out maybe 1k healing. It’s a neat idea but it’s just not working now, which is the point of feedback!

Negative feedback doesn’t mean this place is negative. I’ve only been refreshing the Engi forums here since yesterday because it’s stayed pretty helpful I think. I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s a negative place just because people don’t like gyros. They shouldn’t like gyros as they are right now because they’re turrets all over again and we know how scarred Engi players are because of turrets.

Hey man, we attach rockets to our hammers to jump around like crazy people. We’ll have a sharp shooting, no scoped, high calibre, modified ammo hammer if we want!

Well, due to Scrapper I am now of the opinion Revenant needs better condi removal. Maybe not a ton, but some. There’s a pretty big gap between Rev and the other professions that are weak to condis I think. I just want that gap tightened up is all.

Supply Crate is also still a really good choice.

From my experience…

Elixir X
Pros

• Good direct damage with Rampage
• Good CC with Tornado
• Great way to shut down transforms.

Cons

• Randomness makes it hard to plan for
• Could get the version you don’t want
• Toolbelt isn’t targeted, could miss

Mortar
Pros

• Great field support
• Great point control
• Engage from 1500 range

Cons

• Ground target only
• Not great damage

We can’t know 100% without ever seeing it in action, but as others I’m pretty confident the answer to the OP is no.

It would be cool if they included this effect in a GM trait somehow on a long cooldown like 60s or something, but I don’t see a good place for this. Maybe if traits get reworked to a point there’s space for it that would be nice but it’s not necessary I don’t think.