Guild Wars 2

Problem is a lot of “teams” are getting carried by the meta. 2 necros + spirit ranger or 1 necro + 2 rangers is VERY common.

The current AOE condi meta is just unfair…you either go with it, or have a extremely hard time otherwise.

If AOE condi is to stay this strong, there should definitely be a stat that reduces condi dmg, like toughness for physical damage.

Mrbig.8019:

Archer Henchman.2534:

Mrbig.8019:

Blackjack.5621:

Jasher.6580:

With the shift in the meta, having a Mesmer on your team flat out gimps you in competitive play. How can we fix this?

They just can´t compete with necro and evade thief, that´s all. The problem is not the mesmer tho.

To be honest is the necro the one who brought the thief to “opness” state.

Pre- necro horror, an evade thief was a strong build but nothing else, now it’s basically the only power build capable to go 1vs1 a necro without insta dying ( while even having a chance to win) and the only power build capable to attain mobility, disangage, 1vs1 and AoE in a single build, all packed with good condi cleansing ( signet, shadow return, lyssa runes).

It just fits the meta perfectly, but it’s not thief fault if the meta is this way.

If necro gets nerfed, S/D thief will still be strong but not “as strong” as it is now.

You can consistently beat any necro build with a D/P setup 1v1 reliably. You will, however, get your kitten demolished in team fights because you can’t deal with the CC and cleave from 3 other players.

Absolutely disagree.

A necro just needs to have its Enfeebling blood ( that is also automatically cast when he goes into death shroud) to connect and it’s GG against a thief who can’t remove 13 secs of weakness from itself unless he uses shadowstep.

A necro can just sit into its spectral wall and ontop of weakness, the necro will have protection AND the thief will be feared.

a D/P thief has no chance to beat a somehow competent necro: this is not the case of an S/D thief.

That’s kinda a l2p issue…You should learn to react to the DS enfeebling blood…its got a slight delay after the DS and it comes down in a swarm of flies…you can see it coming and just dodge. Once you pay attention to dodging the initial DS weakness, you’re in a much better place 1v1ing a necro.

It’s a 60/40 win in my opinion as long as you have all your CDs up and play aggressively. If you let the necro breathe, you’re done.

Just learn to take leaderboards as a joke and all will be good.

To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.

It does exist, and at large.

The only problem with blinds right now are they are literally stuck on you until you hit someone. There should be a short duration before it is automatically taken off…maybe a 3-5 few secs at most.

I’ve come out of fights being completely blinded for the entire duration of until I find someone else to hit across the map…

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Team Arena random map pool:
Kyhlo, Forest, Foefire, Temple

Solo Arena random map pool:
Kyhlo, Forest, Foefire, Temple, Spirit, Skyhammer

+10000000

great news!

Down state is fine, but there are certain downstates that need balance.

Rangers + Engis in particular. Eles are next.

uberkingkong.8041:

Don’t matter if good players are in solo que, they don’t have there cronies with them to make them a better team. Its all about skill now AND a lot of luck, there’ll be 4v5 still but no more solo que vs premade bullkitten. My win % will go up more because of this and I wont have 18.18% win chance anymore, should be 50% or someplace near that.

Ironically it doesn’t matter about skill. As I said, you can put the most skillful player in a solo Q and the second they get matched with inexperienced players, it’s over. You can’t cap 3 points by yourself unfortunately.

It’s up in the air I think.

You can have 3 great players in a team vs 5 mediocre players. But if the 3 great players are paired up with 2 new players, it’s going to turn into a 3v5 and the 5 mediocre players could very well win. It’s kinda hard to carry a team in this game alone, that’s why solo Qs have been so dreadful. You can throw any top 10 player in a solo q and they will lose simply because they’ve been paired up with drastically less experienced players.

I don’t know how many times I’ve said in a solo Q “I’ll watch x point, go to another”, then 1-2 other players come in and just sit on point to cap as if it was a hotjoin.

I’ve personally done this experiment to myself – went from r8 – r200 in 1 day of solo Qing.

You make it seem like PVE legendaries actually require SKILL to get =/

It was always a grind.

Yea I often find myself trying to locate my cursor again…sucks during clutch times when you’re trying to target someone and it just gets lost in the crowd.

People use asuras on tpvp because you can’t tell what they are doing unless it’s something as telegraphed as Mighty Blow.

You can also hide A LOT better, and in more places if you use a asura. Prime example of this being used is when Hman plays his war, he is often hidden somewhere, waits until the right time then BAM. Out of no where 100b to the face. There are places where you can only hide with a asura and nothing taller.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Amaterasu.6280:

Stealth is hardly a problem…people have learned to kill thieves through stealth and it’s not hard especially with the current AOE condi meta.

If you fight thieves enough you should already know how they move…when they are permastealthing, they are not killing you. And if they are not perma stealthing, they are probably next to you trying to backstab you…act accordingly!

Btw, for those who don’t know, perma stealthing is done through spamming heartseekers in a BP. If you simply just walk INTO the BP and stay there, the next time they heart seek, they will hit you and reveal himself, thus cancelling the perma stealth…learn to do this and it will screw them up!

Implying they spawn BP on you and HS takes half an hour to be activated… You see BP, you need to walk to it and before you reach it, hearseeker will be already used and you blinded yourself for nothing.

Not really sure what you’re saying, but it takes at least 3 heartseeks through BP to maintain “perma stealth” with infusion of shadow trait. If you can’t reach the BP and stand in it by the time they do 3 heartseekers, then you are probably way too far to be in harm anyway…You will be blind, but the second they hit you, they will have their reveal buff on…

This is how I fight against “perma-stealth” thieves and trust me, it screws them up.

Not to mention perma stealthing hardly works in a team environment…it’s VERY easy to screw up because anyone can walk into your heartseek radius and you’d end up revealing yourself.

Stealth is hardly a problem…people have learned to kill thieves through stealth and it’s not hard especially with the current AOE condi meta.

If you fight thieves enough you should already know how they move…when they are permastealthing, they are not killing you. And if they are not perma stealthing, they are probably next to you trying to backstab you…act accordingly!

Btw, for those who don’t know, perma stealthing is done through spamming heartseekers in a BP. If you simply just walk INTO the BP and stay there, the next time they heart seek, they will hit you and reveal himself, thus cancelling the perma stealth…learn to do this and it will screw them up!

Though I don’t agree with perma stealthing and do agree that it should go, stealth in general is really not OP. It’s nothing but a gimmick, you still get hit through it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

Illidan.6802:

As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.

Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.

They ARE punished for it. A thief putting 30 points in Acro, and slotting SoA and Energy Sigil is making CHOICES – that’s a utility slot, 30 points of a 70 point spec, and weapon sigil slot All dedicated to dodging. All those choices dedicated to dodging subtract something from the thief, whether it be Burst potential, DPS in general, or team utility.

If they dodge 8 times in a row just “for giggles”, they are not effectively playing their spec – the spec that they sacrificed so much else to run. What don’t you get about that? How can you possibly not get that after playing a thief for 3500 matches?

You just missed the entire point as to why people say s/d thieves are a problem right now. If they are simply just trolls with dodges and offer nothing else, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

You claim that they are punished for it when you can still put out good DPS to everything with 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10? There is a reason why people are afraid of fighting s/d thieves and not really d/p thieves. S/D may not have the initial 9k backstab burst, but it has INSANELY good sustain…mind you the initial burst isn’t bad already especially if you run mug. But, with the new FS/LS tracking, you are literally stuck to the other person. I’d say it tracks just as well, if not better than heartseekers.

Also, being able to dodge 8+ times in a roll while disengaging across the map, then coming back with almost full CDs does not mean that they are getting punished. Signet of agility (which gives you 3 dodges + condi clear/s) is on a 24s CD and withdraw is on 15. By the time you use them in conjunction to dodges to disengage and come back, they would already pretty much be recharged.

I think somehow you are in the delusion that people are complaining about S/D thieves strictly because of the dodges…while I brought up dodges as ONE of the problems, it is certainly not the only problem.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

ensoriki.5789:

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…

Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.

Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.

Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.

But you’re starting with the assertion that S/D thieves are “a problem”. Your very first sentence says
“I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved”.
I disagree that S/D thieves are a “problem”. All the forum support in the world that you can drum up isn’t going to convince me otherwise, because I’ve been playing S/D long enough to know that while the spec is strong, it isn’t broken.

They have a playstyle that people don’t like. Tough kitten, they’ll get used to it. I don’t like dealing with a mesmer’s constant escapes, but I’m not going to come crying to the boards and claim its OP and whine for nerfs just because I don’t like it

I’m not going to defend my points any further and stray this thread away to a pointless argument.

Again, if you feel that it’s just a matter of L2P when literally EVERYONE is saying that s/d thieves are OP right now INCLUDING thieves, then I don’t know what to say.

Did you feel the same vs triple cantrip bunker eles pre-nerf? Just tough kitten , get used to it?

How about the current state of necros? I guess it’s just a l2p issue too and we should just get used to the playstyle?

A problem is a problem, and I’m not going to sit back on it just because I play the class.

Illidan.6802:

As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.

Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.

ensoriki.5789:

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…

Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.

Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.

Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.

evilapprentice.6379:

So you’ve played 3500 matches, but the words your saying still lead me to believe you don’t really understand basic meta.

If you’re capitalizing on swords AOE cleave, you’re in the Cleave radius of other classes – Thief isn’t built to tough that situation out – if your tanky enough to try to wade into an AoE Fest, your damage is crap, and if your damage is high enough to be considered a problem, you’ll be down 90% health and ticking 3-4 separate conditions in less than 5 seconds. You might score a few extra hits, but you’re not sitting in the middle of an AoE kittenfest and DPSing a ton of targets – you just don’t have the tools to do so, and thats fine, Thieves have different tools (like Inf strike/SR, as an example)

LS isn’t an evade, FS is – but I’m sure that was just a slip of the tongue anyone who’s played 3500 games with a thief might make.

“dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) " – You can run withdraw (Which breaks snares/roots, not stuns, but again you knew that having played 3500 games on your thief. Also, don’t quote me on this one because I’m not sure of it, but I don’t think withdraw is 1200r.). In fact, your traits/utilities/heal setup is entirely independent of your weapon sets! Imagine that.

I understand you feel Sword #2 is broken – I’m probably not going to convince you otherwise. But saying that it’s a “Fact”, not a “Myth”, is silly, because its just your opinion (which, in case it wasn’t clear, I completely disagree with).

First I’d like to eat my words and say that I was wrong about the withdraw range. It is indeed not 1200r, but more around 600? It sucks that the description doesn’t have it’s range listed, but testing it again, it seems like it’s probably around that. For that, I apologize. I have no problems admitting I’m wrong about details. However, it does not mask the true problem.

I do mean FS as the evade, but I said LS probably because you have to use FS to get LS.

Anyway, I stand by my words – sword #2 is broken, and you can believe it’s just MY opinion or not…but I guess a lot of people playing casually and in high lvl tpvp share MY opinions then…

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

I have 3500 games with a thief, so I’m not going to even defend your claim of my “sub-par” understanding of my class. I am trying to give unbiased thoughts here, as I DO know the class.

Engaging and disengaging is the whole point of the sword MH, I get it, but if you have played a thief yourself or against it, you would know that sword #2 is OP. This is not a myth, but the truth.

For example, if the shadow return on #2 was limited to say, 600r, the same range that the initial hit is, then it’d be more balanced. If there was a CD on shadow return, then it would be more balanced. You don’t think that it’s a problem that sword #2 serves as a ALWAYS accessible stunbreak (even after the “nerf”) at 1200r? You arguably don’t even need shadowstep because of the above.

And how exactly would sword MH be worse than d/p if there was a nerf to sword #2? You STILL have hard hitting AOE cleave + larcenous strike, which is a evade + boon strip in itself. The fact that you think that the weapon set is totally done with a nerf to shadow return via sword #2, proves my points exactly – it’s THAT good.

On top of being able to chain 8+ dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) , you think that there is no problem with that?

Btw, no tourney d/p thieves run 30 in SA unless you play like Cruuk. It seems like you’re not very familiar with the current tpvp meta…

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

I main a thief and I can tell you that Sword #2 needs a nerf – and I don’t mean the bootleg nerf that it got a few patches ago making it “not” a stunbreak.

It was nothing but a joke…you can still teleport right back at 1200r via shadow return and by the time anyone gets to you, your cc would already be over thus making the change pointless.

With the popular s/d thieves running withdraw + sig of agility, it’s pretty much impossible to kill them unless you are a thief yourself. Now, that being said, I don’t have much problems killing s/d thieves, but that’s because I AM a thief. But when I play any other class, it’s extremely frustrating to play against.

A suggestion is they could try to put a CD on shadow return on sword #2 so that they can’t just disengage whenever then rinse and repeat.

Withdraw is another problem. I think the CD needs to go up…15s for a 1200r evade/stunbreak which heals you for 4k + gives you vigor (via vigorous recovery) is a lot. That along with signet of agility + feline grace trait + energy sigils, you get pretty much perma dodge when you need it. It’s a combination of these things that make the current s/d thieves so over the top.

I just hope whatever the near-future nerf/fix would be, that it won’t mess up other builds with different weapon sets.

Targetting a stealthed target = might as well take stealth out.

It’s not a invuln and it doesn’t stop any sort of damage…being able to target someone while in stealth is the worst idea ever.

+1, I’ve brought this up before.

Nothing more frustrating than trying to target a engi amongst his drop crate, a ranger amongst his spirits + pet.

Mesmer clones I can deal with because that’s the whole point of the clone mechanic.

With addition to new skins every 2 weeks – 1 mo, a lot of them require tickets only found in black lion chests…

Could we please make it so that PvPers could get them without taking time out just to farm PvE? Even PvEers dread finding them, but at least there are chances of getting them. There is currently no chance for a pvper to get black lion keys…which is totally unfair IMO. It just adds to the list of things that the pvp community doesn’t get that the pve community does.

Thoughts?

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Compared to thieves—it isn’t OP at all. And you have to land it to stealth right?

The fact that you are comparing a mechanic that SHOULD have been strictly for thieves, to a ranger, is just silly.

Why don’t we trade? We give you some stealth, you give us some automated AI, how about a pet or some spirits?

No one accumulates meter in the beginning of the game…that’s like saying a warrior should start with full 3 bars adrenaline…

Congrats man, lots of dedication!

samo.1054:

Warrior does not need fixing. Other classes need fixing. They need a lot of cheese removed.

How many lbs and what kind are you talking about?

I don’t think the devs realized just how much necros would have been buffed simply because they overlooked at simultaneously, they are buffing both weakness(now affects crit AND 50% fumble) and blindness (no more shaking it off) which were buffs to EVERYTHING overall…not directed to necros. Unfortunately a necro has access to both conditions, 1 of which will come out everytime you deathshroud. Add torment, burning with dhuumfire + fear wall procting with terror and it’s a HUGE buff.

Necros honestly weren’t that far off before…they just needed disengage…but the balance is very skewed right now.

What’s funny is that necroes aren’t even at their full potential yet because Poison is completely broken! Good joke.

No wonder why people are still ressing so fast even after I poison the corpse….

-_-

Stunbreaks should break ALL stuns, immediately.

No exceptions unless you want to add a skill like that to every class’s weapon sets. Fair is fair.

If we want to argue that launch/knockback ccs are working as intended, then the user should not be able to do any other actions until the enemy can. If I have to wait until I thump in order to stunbreak, then the user should have to wait until I thump to perform any other action. I shouldn’t have to get hit by certain skills at their will and there is nothing I can do about it.

I did a test on this today with my team’s ele.

I can EASILY eat a 5k+ combo without being able to stunbreak until it’s done.

Here’s what we tried out:

Ele: Lightning flash + Updraft -> (in midst of updraft – Arcane Wave + Blast) -> lighting 2

The above was a 100% guaranteed hit once you’re hit with updraft. By the time you’re able to stunbreak you’ve already eaten the full dmg of 5 skills (4 if you count out updraft not having any dmg)

How do you feel about that Arheundel? You think that it is right that (whatever you want to call them) launch or knockback CCs should be the only skills that stunbreaks fail to work properly against while every other CC you can instantly stunbreak out of?

I also tried combo’ing my backstab burst combo with his updraft combo and we bursted a necro at full hp down in 1s. And guess what? There is nothing he can do about it.

Mind you, blink stunbreaks are the better stunbreaks for these…if you tried to use a stunbreak like a mesmer’s decoy during this, you’re stuck in the same spot in which you are updrafted so you’re screwed even more.

Shar.3402:

@OP: Your reaction time is so fast that you let an elementalist walk close to you, in air attunement, and don’t even dodge to avoid the upcoming updraft (because, you know, there is only one reason for an elementalist in air attunement to come into melee range…)
Seems legit.

Right, because lightning flash + updraft isn’t instant. Seems legit, and valid.

I don’t understand how anyone could even defend this problem as if it SHOULD exist. Stunbreaks exist strictly to get out of ccs and no cc should be an exception. Saying that I should wait to stunbreak (mind you, I will get hit by the instant air combo + fast phoenix before I could dodge) is just silly.

Arheundel.6451:

Amaterasu.6280:

I think this has been brought up in the past before, but I do feel it’s a very important matter to fix – especially for the thief class.

Certain CCs such as an ele’s updraft causes a 2-3s COMPLETE freeze for a character if you try to stunbreak out of it too early…now we’ve been dealing with this problem by simply waiting until you’re done “thumping” on the floor, then stunbreaking…however it is NOT a solution by any means. Especially nowadays where 30 air eles are popular, you can’t afford to wait for the thumping to finish because before you can properly stunbreak, they would have already gotten a full lightning + phoenix rotation on you…It’s like you die if you don’t stunbreak and you die IF you stunbreak.

This problem punishes people with fast reactions and there’s been many a times where I’ve died from it…updraft -> stunbreak -> frozen for 3s -> free dps to death.

What is the point of a stunbreak if it leaves you frozen afterwards? I believe this is an important thing to look into and fix.

Updraft is a knockback, not a knockdown, if you use the stunbreak while still flying or still jumping on the floor..then you waste your stunbreaker, it’s the same with every other knockback in game.

Fast reaction times means I teleport/stun break and dodge before any phoenix arrive, as the ele needs to be at close range to use updraft I’d say you need more battle awareness, seeing as visible lightnings around his wrists should give you enough indication of what the ele can do at that moment

You cannot be serious….?

“Control effects
-Daze
-Fear
-Float
-Knockdown
-Launch (Blowout)
-Pull
-Push (Knockback)
-Sink1
-Stun
-Deep Freeze from Conjure Frost Bow.
-Petrified caused by Basilisk Venom”

Do you propose that I dodge before he can Lighting #1-2-3 instantly as well while I thump along waiting to stunbreak? As a FYI you cannot wait to get up and dodge a phoenix anymore after the recent patch making phoenix a flying jet.

A CC is a CC, there is no reason why I should have to wait and take the a few hits first before I can stunbreak.

Seems like you play a different game.

I think this has been brought up in the past before, but I do feel it’s a very important matter to fix – especially for the thief class.

Certain CCs such as an ele’s updraft causes a 2-3s COMPLETE freeze for a character if you try to stunbreak out of it too early…now we’ve been dealing with this problem by simply waiting until you’re done “thumping” on the floor, then stunbreaking…however it is NOT a solution by any means. Especially nowadays where 30 air eles are popular, you can’t afford to wait for the thumping to finish because before you can properly stunbreak, they would have already gotten a full lightning + phoenix rotation on you…It’s like you die if you don’t stunbreak and you die IF you stunbreak.

This problem punishes people with fast reactions and there’s been many a times where I’ve died from it…updraft -> stunbreak -> frozen for 3s -> free dps to death.

What is the point of a stunbreak if it leaves you frozen afterwards? I believe this is an important thing to look into and fix.

It should have been done from the start…a central mists should have been done, and I think would be something awesome for the near-future.

Kiriakulos.1690:

To everyone suggesting Doom not be usable if the Necro is stunned.

This makes Necros completely defenseless to thieves with basilisk venom.
We can spend 1 stun-break on the venom, but then we’ll be feared for 3 seconds, because of steal, with ZERO ways to avoid HS spam.

There are multiple ways to apply weakness on a necro…as a thief I can guarantee you that it’s VERY strong as a dps class denial. We HAVE to clense it before going back to fight or we’ll be wasting all our initiative only to tickle you…spamming 10 heartseekers won’t kill, especially since they decided to up the glancing blows rate up to 50% from 25%…the new weakness is a extremely good tool now for melee denial.

I agree, it is a combination of things are put necros over the top at the moment.

1) Dhuumfire + Terror on top of being able to put out pretty much every condi in the game in a matter of 2 seconds is what’s putting necros over the top right now. You put all that condi damage on someone then fear them, and there is very little that most classes can do. Even if you stunbreak out of the fear, you’re left with 3-5 more condis to clear. Aside from the very few stunbreaks from the game that actually clear multiple condis (like contemplation of purity on a guardian), chances are you would be using 2/3 utilities just to clear the initial swarm of condis on you. Mind you, let’s not forget the buff to weakness which most necros have 2-3 ways of accessing. A zerker dps class is arguably the best way to kill the new meta necros, but even so, you have to deal with weakness on DS, enfeebling blood, and spite signet. There 3 conditions that a necro can get access to easily which are game changing – weakness, fear (with terror) + burning. To sum it up – at the moment there are too many ways for a necro to deal with other classes, but little for other classes to deal with necros.

2) Fear walls…you get a 2k+ fear EVERY time. No you cannot just walk around it because everyone know you can just stagger your steps back and forth and you’ll be protected for the entire duration while being able to dish out damage safely. That along with the proc that it gives…is just too much. To be honest it wouldn’t be such a big deal if it didn’t work with the Terror trait, but it does, and it is arguably the most OP utility at the moment. You get great defense AND offense. Line of warding doesn’t even come close…LoW is nothing more than a distraction…it doesn’t give you proc nor does it give out 2k+ fears on every crossing. Sure we’ve all heard the argument of waiting around for 5s before engaging again, but that is NOT an option. Any class (especially melee) can easily melt within 5s because a good necro will run a train on you in the meantime. Stability is great, but there is not enough access to stability amongst classes…we can see proof of this because it’s forcing certain classes to use Lyssa runes strictly to deal with necros with stability (and the full condi clear of course)

3) The above wouldn’t be much of a problem, but with the flaw of the game design there is no stat that is equivalent to toughness for condition damage. You can argue and say vitality is…but I beg to differ. This is a BIG deal. Condi builds allow you to invest in condition dmg (a stat that is already designed to be above physical damage as there is no counter stat) AND toughness, being able to put out the maximum amount of condi dmg while being tanky. Best of both worlds. However, when a physical damage class/build wants to put out their potential damage, they WILL have to sacrifice close to all their survivability…this is a fact, not a myth. If you are using a hybrid build, you are not putting out the most dmg.

Just a fyi, your image for your spvp build does not reflect 10/30/0/25/5.

BrunoBRS.5178:

for the record, amaterasu, the spectral wall is no worse than the line/ring of warding that guardians have. it’s stronger (fear instead of knockdown, with potential to corrupt boons), but in practical terms, it’s the same: don’t walk through it because you can’t, but you can wait 5 seconds or teleport through.

oh and you really shouldn’t be 1v1ing a necro as a thief, unless you know that necro is a glass cannon (in which case, hack away, no amount of death shroud will save him).

You just contradicted yourself there…it’s no worse than line of warding but it’s stronger in every way?

I don’t agree about the 1v1ing necro thing neither – a good dps thief is a necro’s worse nightmare if played correctly. Trust me, I still kill necros 1v1 post-patch.

Anyway that’s besides the point, I’m only here to discuss the state of spectral wall, not whether a thief should engage a necro or not…

Poplolita.2638:

Archer Henchman.2534:

Poplolita.2638:

Amaterasu.6280:

sorrow.2364:

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t think a nec could walk back across the wall faster than you can walk around it?

Then just wait 5 seconds and make him regret casting his wall.

5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks. As a bunker guard, a line of warding could delay you, but your friendly neighborhood bunker guard isn’t going to murder you within those few secs neither. That’s the difference.

The problem is that the spectral wall is both offensive + defensive. Gives the user proc if you walk across it, and fears EVERYTIME the enemy walks through it…on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…

“5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks.”

Try using any of those moves:
Thief: Infiltrator’s arrow 6 initiation no cooldown vs 45 cooldown
Mesmer: Illusionary leap/swap 12sec cooldown vs 45 cooldown, blink 30 sec vs 45 cooldown.
Ele: Put as much boon on you to cover stability so corrupt bone doesn’t convert it (stability is corrupt boon lowest priority) cross the wall. lightning flash 40 sec vs 45 cooldown
Guardian: Same with ele.
Warrior: who cares?
Ranger: Why would he ever cross it? Use your ranged weapons.
Engineer: Why would he ever cross it? Use your ranged weapons.

See where I’m going at? spectral wall is hardly the reason why necromancer are so dumb right not. You even stated yourself where’s the problem at.
Dhuumfire+terror set up combo. Not spectral wall. Or I’ll see more build that only focus on terror with a lot of fear without dhuumfire. 0/30/10/0/30 for example.

“on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…”

“few times”

l2p issue

If you’re meleeing someone and they drop the wall, you’re gonna get feared. If he stands near the wall I cannot shadowshot, inf sig or steal to him. If I switch to shortbow, I cannot cleanse condis or restealth, and his dps far exceeds mine.

The only solution as a thief is to just stop fighting for 5 seconds, which isn’t an option for any build that doesn’t immediately have access to multiple stealth applications.

I feel even worse for warriors.

And as for stability, there’s kind of an issue there: Corrupt turns stability into fear, which walks you through the wall, which fears you again.

1. You actually have to cross to not get feared. Like literaly. Even if the necromancer puted the wall right on your feet, it will not fear you.

2. Please stop. At this point, I feel you are trying to make a spell sound so good without taking any cons into consideration just so people could take notice of it and start overreacting. Stop it already. Corrup boon was mainly used in high competitive play to counter bunker build, guardian and elem. Pre patch, it used to convert ALL THE BOONS into CONDITIONS. Now, since the patch, not only it only converts 5 boons, but stability is it’s lowest priority. It means that any decent guardian or ele will make sure that stability is covered by 5 other boons. In the other hand, if a profession got 5 boons + stability on him, corrupt boon will never convert stability into fear.

3. You are obviously a thief. Let’s only talk about 1v1. Let’s forget about team fight. In the other hand, wall is op against my class, therefore it should get nerfed. I don’t care about dhuumfire +terror combo. I only care about getting rid of something that destroy my insta gib 1v1 combo. kitten plz.

Funny you mention nerf because thieves get nerfed every single patch. First of all, a thief cannot instagib a necro – it was hard enough pre-mug nerf, and now it’s 100% impossible.

No one is trying to get rid of spectral wall, but it’s a overall consensus (even amongst necros that I know) that spectral wall is OP right now. It should be toned down.

Poplolita.2638:

Amaterasu.6280:

sorrow.2364:

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t think a nec could walk back across the wall faster than you can walk around it?

Then just wait 5 seconds and make him regret casting his wall.

5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks. As a bunker guard, a line of warding could delay you, but your friendly neighborhood bunker guard isn’t going to murder you within those few secs neither. That’s the difference.

The problem is that the spectral wall is both offensive + defensive. Gives the user proc if you walk across it, and fears EVERYTIME the enemy walks through it…on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…

“5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks.”

Try using any of those moves:
Thief: Infiltrator’s arrow 6 initiation no cooldown vs 45 cooldown
Mesmer: Illusionary leap/swap 12sec cooldown vs 45 cooldown, blink 30 sec vs 45 cooldown.
Ele: Put as much boon on you to cover stability so corrupt bone doesn’t convert it (stability is corrupt boon lowest priority) cross the wall. lightning flash 40 sec vs 45 cooldown
Guardian: Same with ele.
Warrior: who cares?
Ranger: Why would he ever cross it? Use your ranged weapons.
Engineer: Why would he ever cross it? Use your ranged weapons.

See where I’m going at? spectral wall is hardly the reason why necromancer are so dumb right not. You even stated yourself where’s the problem at.
Dhuumfire+terror set up combo. Not spectral wall. Or I’ll see more build that only focus on terror with a lot of fear without dhuumfire. 0/30/10/0/30 for example.

“on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…”

“few times”

l2p issue

Um…sorry but I DON’T see where you’re going at. As a thief, infiltrator’s arrow shouldn’t even be in the discussion of spectral wall…I can shortbow from 900r, so why would I need to infiltrator’s arrow to cross the wall? Makes no sense. What baffles me is that you’re comparing these skills to spectral wall…how do these skills even compare to what spectral wall does? If you don’t think spectral wall is a problem, then you’re just in denial. Why do you think it’s pretty much mandatory now with necs? It’s used a lot more than spectral walk itself, and that’s a stunbreak! Why? Because it’s that good.

I also hope you know that if you’re a melee class, it’s hardly a l2p issue. There is NOTHING you could do unless you have stability, period. Get in range, feared and damaged, rinse and repeat. The only way for a melee weapon set is to completely stop hitting the necro for 5s…which is NOT an option. For that, you might as well just give up and die because as I already said, 5s is plenty of time to kill a melee class.

Yea Solo Q is a joke.

I personally risked my rank to try it out for 1 day because I just wanted to experience what the forum is talking about and I just got tired sitting in the mists worrying about ranking. I realized it was just silly.

Guess what?

I went from r18 -> r250 in 1 day (roughly a few hours) of solo qing. Then the next day I gave it another chance and went to r500.

They have to separate premades with solo Qs. People who are ranked well would rather sit in the mists and stare at the screen than to try to solo Q because it is a 90% guaranteed lost, the other 10% are wins IF you run up against another solo Q with new players.

Even when I was top 10, the ranks would shift drastically even if I lost 1 game. I can drop as much kitten ranks by losing 1 game…I’ve never played a game with a ladder that is so unstable…it’s just not fun.

So now, I don’t care for leaderboard rank anymore.

sorrow.2364:

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t think a nec could walk back across the wall faster than you can walk around it?

Then just wait 5 seconds and make him regret casting his wall.

5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks. As a bunker guard, a line of warding could delay you, but your friendly neighborhood bunker guard isn’t going to murder you within those few secs neither. That’s the difference.

The problem is that the spectral wall is both offensive + defensive. Gives the user proc if you walk across it, and fears EVERYTIME the enemy walks through it…on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…

You don’t think a nec could walk back across the wall faster than you can walk around it?

Yea I’m gonna try something like this as well though I don’t know exact build. It has potential…though not sure about 1 shotting…

It makes no sense if the pvp armors could only be bought through achievements…achievements is pretty much a PVE thing.

Have you tried 0/0/30/20/20 with prismatic understanding?

I think it would make a mean backnode mesmer…every time you stealth you get Aegis, Protection + Regen.

It definitely doesn’t do as much dmg since you don’t really bleed people anymore, but you get lots of survivability…