(edited by ArmageddonAsh.6430)
Dhuumfire change is the worst change ever.
Correction: Second worst change.
The worst change was adding Dhuumfire in the first place, and then nerfing dozens of condition skills/traits because of it.
Don’t forget the amount of times Dhuumfire has been nerfed itself. So They Dhuumfire which then gets nerfed i think this one will be the 4th nerf and they have had nerfs to other conditions and skills. It is like they are trying as much as they can to kill off Conditionmancer…
You truly don’t get the whole ‘elementalist is not a pet class’ concept do you?
You truely don’t understand that of course i meant for each of them to not all be summonable at the same time.
Doesn’t matter. You want to make them permanenet, which means you’re effectively turning a non-pet class into a pet class.
I would take Golem over GoE every day of the week. I had a fight in OS last night being a 1Vs1 Tornado would have been useless, didnt fancy using FGS and we both went GoE -
Fire Ele died within SECONDS on both of our summons. I barely noticed the damage their one did. I don’t think they even noticed the damage mine did. In fact NONE of the ele we pretty much used them ALL during our 20-30minute fight and none made ANY sort of impact on the fight, we just ignored each others and let the AoE and splash damage kill them off.
Did you even consider summoning any of the other elementals? Because there’s no way your opponent’s splash damage could have instantly taken out an earth elemental. The glyph gives you the ability to use a different summon on the fly, but if you don’t use the right summon in the right situation then of course they’ll be useless.
his is what i mean, they simply are not a threat. Having to have them balanced around the fact their is 4 even though you can only summon one is rather odd as it makes them weaker than they really should be. Then you get into the fact that they have really long and undeserved cool downs – for what? They aren’t a threat and yet require 180second cool down…
Again…they don’t have a long cooldown. They have the lowest cooldown of all summon skills in all non-pet classes.
In our fight we used ALL of them and some several times. They made little to no impact on the fight or died VERY fast – i mean the Fire ele was dead within 5 seconds of being summoned. While the Earth summon lasted longer, it again had no impact on our fight. Air seemed to work the “best” but still “best” of a bad bunch and still it mostly interrupted auto attacks and not attacks or heal that would be better to interrupt – This is where not having control of the “best” attack gets very annoyed.
Stop trying to compare them to “pet classes” – Ranger is the ONLY pet class as they HAVE to use them. Necromancer DOESN’T have to use ANY of them thus they are NOT a pet class. I take Golem on my Powermancer with NO traits at all to make it better – because it doesnt need them. Sure it makes them better depending on the build but you don’t have to take them.
What was I hoping for?:
- Signets: A good look at signet utilities and how they can interact with traits to make them viable in PvP.
- Glyphs: An overhaul of Glyph of Elemental Power to make it defensive, as it currently is counter-intuitive. Stunbreak on a skill you wish to activate before combat, yet still only triggers randomly is not appealing in the slightest.
- Arcana: It is mandatory in PvP, which hinders build diversity enormously.
- Focus: The focus need more attention than any other weapon. Fire #4, 5, Water #4, and Air #5 CD.
- Build Diversity: Something to accomplish this via traits. You are trying to fix this with changes to runes/sigils and new amulets I think, so we’ll see what happens.
Signets – I have to agree, i find them rather lackluster. In most cases the Passive WAY outshines the Active making you rarely want to use the Active – Unless you take Written In Stone of course.
Glyphs – I agree again. I find Harmony pretty solid. The others need work.
Elemental Power is a very confusing skill, something that you want up before combat starts – yet for some reason has a Stun Breaker attached to it when its on offensive skill. I would like to see the Stun Breaker removed and the chance to proc increased to 50% – Maybe tie it to Crit hits so 50% chance on Crit hit to proc, Maybe add 1second cool down?
Storms – Find it rather lackluster, doesnt seem to really offer anything that would make it worthwhile outside of VERY unique situations. No idea what to do with this one.
Lesser Elementals – As if the Elite wasn’t weak enough, who would really want to use this? I say remove and replace with something USEFUL.
Renewal – Cast time is WAY too long, Cool down is insanely long as well.
Arcana: Totally agree with this, the fact is that it is needed to reduce the cool down on our class mechanic which simply shouldn’t be. It should have a 10second cool down and have Arcana reduce that to 7-8seconds should people still want to go for it.
Focus: Don’t use it, cant comment.
Build diversity: I think the biggest problem is that we start off with such a BIG disadvantage that we have to build, trait and gear to just counter that starting disadvantage that even when done we are at a disadvantage to everyone else that has built and traited. This disadvantage? The Health and Armor. I personally think it needs to be looked at, i could understand it when we were near godmode at the start but we have gotten nerfed, nerfed and more nerfed since then and havent gotten anything as compensation…
Increasing our Health pool would allow us to spent traits stats elsewhere and to not have to build defensive thanks to our starting weakness.
Rather than nerfing the good downstate – why not buff the rubbish ones?
The only thing strong about Ele downstate is the fact they can Vapor through doors, which i see no problem with, its happened to me loads of times. Considering they are the only class with Low Health and Low Armor they SHOULD have something and i think Vapor is that something.
You truly don’t get the whole ‘elementalist is not a pet class’ concept do you?
You truely don’t understand that of course i meant for each of them to not all be summonable at the same time. I would take Golem over GoE every day of the week. I had a fight in OS last night being a 1Vs1 Tornado would have been useless, didnt fancy using FGS and we both went GoE -
Fire Ele died within SECONDS on both of our summons. I barely noticed the damage their one did. I don’t think they even noticed the damage mine did. In fact NONE of the ele we pretty much used them ALL during our 20-30minute fight and none made ANY sort of impact on the fight, we just ignored each others and let the AoE and splash damage kill them off.
This is what i mean, they simply are not a threat. Having to have them balanced around the fact their is 4 even though you can only summon one is rather odd as it makes them weaker than they really should be. Then you get into the fact that they have really long and undeserved cool downs – for what? They aren’t a threat and yet require 180second cool down…
. All full zerk profession will easily get defeated if they make a mistake even warriors.
In my opinion that is wrong. Look at everything warrior have to escape and to block or immunity damage and conditions. They also get insane passive regen. Same goes for Thieves sure they MIGHT get killed by making a mistake every now and then but that doesnt mean it happens all the time.
You also forget that so many of these classes have FAR better defensive skills than ele all the while having more health and more armor so they don’t need to even think about defensive stats most of the time.
How does healing signet counter 1500 dps and poison that melts them very easily? By actively fighting to survive. Actively fighting to survive takes skill.
I only knew of a few classes that can Perma Poison people. So that one doesnt really count. Silly me – Pressing a block or immunity takes REAL skill. You are also forgetting that if they want to run they can…
Plus it will do a better job that people that can have perma regen due to it being 4 times as strong add on Adrenal Health and thats even more regen. Combined that into the class wit the Highest health and Highest armor with plenty of ways to block or invul damage while still healing AND still being able to damage. They could also go the Hammer route and just spam CC….Not everyone has easy access to stability.
You can still die in it, i hate that it says that you are invulnerable but doesnt say that falling damage will still hurt you…
The problem is – at the start of the game Ele were insane and nearly unkillable. They SO many nerfs – Damage, healing, Mobility as well as to specific skills and to counter that what did we get? Nothing.
We have changed A LOT since release. We were prtty much demigods back then but after all the nerfs to healing skills, damage reduction, mobility reduction, utilities and traits being nerfed and such we are FAR from the class that actually started the game.
If you have seen plenty of good ele players in s/tpvp then you can only imagine how much better they are in wvw. In wvw is where good ele players excel the most specially at 1v1 scenarios.
You are forgetting that in WvW pretty much everyone is Condi when roaming. You are also forgetting that unless you spec for at least some defense you will die A LOT thanks to the low Health and Armor.
In Zerker, you make a single mistake, a skill gets dodged or immune and you are pretty much screwed.
Every other healing skill requires no skill at all. Just press 1 button and all your HP is back.
Healing signet requires you to actively survive to keep your HP up.
Wrong. This is just passive healing. The warrior will RARELY even use the active, that takes no skill what so ever to do. where as any heal that has a cast time of say 3/4seconds+ can be countered and interrupted.
How do you counter a passive heal that is nearly FOUR times as strong as 4 stacks of Regen on a character that has more then 500 healing Power compared to a warrior that simply equips it…
To kind of play off your idea to give the class more offensive utility, what if they made the active work kind of like the Elementalist’s glyphs where you get a unique skill depending on the weapon you have selected?
If you have a Hammer equipped, your activated attack is a banish which knocks the target back XXX units.
If you have a Greatsword equipped, you pull up to 5 targets to you and chill them.
Something unique for each weapon that may fill in some void the weapon currently has but doesn’t aid in a Warrior’s defense or mobility.
Yeah because hammer needs MORE knockbacks…
It is a 8% “nerf” that is like 38HpS. The active doesnt need to be changed at all for such a low “nerf” which it barely is. Most warriors wouldn’t even notice the “nerf” anyway.
How about something crazy – The active is left alone because it is such a low “nerf” that ANY change to the active will be a buff. It is a mere 8% “nerf” its not like it has been decreased by 50% or anything. It wouldn’t even be noticed.
If the active MUST be buffed, then the Passive needs to be nerfed by more than 8%.
(edited by ArmageddonAsh.6430)
So rather than buffing the class as a whole you just want specific weapons and skills buffed? Meaning the people that don’t use them don’t get any benefit…
…Where as Buffing the CLASS would benefit EVERY ele.
Huh no please. I crit 2k with lightning Flash and I use it in burst with air attunement for a 4k+ crit potential. It doesn’t do “minor” damage. In other words, you may use it as a get away card, but I use it for offensive – often with Fire 4 (staff) combo.
You have to BUILD for it to do that damage, that is fine. I see no problem with making something stronger when it COSTS you doing so. 2k damage every 40 seconds….Oh SO much damage!
The trouble of buffing Elementalist base armor or hp is that its sustainability is balanced around its ability to heal up fast in a lot of situations. If we were to increase the Elementalist base hp and/or armor, there would have to be a load of other changes associated with it if we didn’t want to the profession to immediately become overpowered.
It has no sustainability. Without going defensive on traits and armor stats it has none. Also its healing requires them spending alot in Healing Power thus meaning they lose another stat that could have been put to a more offensive route.
I disagree, Buffing the Health/armor would not suddenly make the class overpowered. It might need a few tweaks here and there but the current fact is most Eles go for defensive options because the slightest mistake in a more offensive build means death thanks to the low health and low armor.
The only way it would become overpowered is if it got the Warrior Level Health and Armor and i am of course not saying that. It should be moved up one tier. Give it a couple of weeks and see how it is doing and then do tweaks to skills. Rather than just tweaking skills which is NOT the reason we have low sustainability
I still argue that the best option to bringing the Elementalist up to compete with other professions is by increasing its defensive mobility ([Burning Retreat] is an excellent example of defensive mobility) and soft CC on sets that have very little of this. I’ve also read the discussion about other proposals to scepter buffs/changes. While I’m wary of giving something like [Shatterstone] a chill, I do think that scepter is in dire need of some soft CC as a means of not only self-defense but also a means to hit targets with my skill shot redesigns of a lot of skills.
That change while decent, solves nothing. We have no sustainability due to how how our stats are and how high all of our defensive cool downs are. All it would take is a few changes to our stats that would mean that players werent forced to go into defensive stats thus meaning they do terrible damage.
After that then sure, they could see the feedback but more importantly they should PLAY the class themselves see what it is like and then make tweaks.
If i were to make any changes I personally would go 0/20/0/20/30. Take I and VIII in Air, V and X in Water and II, VIII and XI in Arcane. This would drop your Condition damage and your Toughness a bit.
I would then swap Signet of Earth and Cleansing Fire out for Glyph of Elemental Power used in Fire gives 25% chance to inflict 3 seconds of burning for 1,661 damage for 30seconds with a 45 second cool down. Take Signet of Fire as well for another 4,964 Burning every 20 seconds as well
Though i would wonder just how well you would be able to keep yourself alive with 200 healing Power and a Heal that is easily interrupted. You could swap it out for Glyph of Elemental Harmony that would be a 5k heal and either 4 stacks of Might, 26 seconds of regen (4k healing) 26seconds of Swiftness or nearly 8 seconds of Protection you would also get a boon based on your attunement from Glyph of Elemental Power Might(Fire), Regen(water), Swiftness(Air), Protection(earth)
Personally, rather than buffing/changing traits, skills and such. All they should do is start off by bumping up our Health and/or Armor. This alone would open up more options when it comes to be builds as players are pretty much forced to go into Toughness/Vit lines as well as getting Toughness/Vit gear thanks to the fact they start off with the Lowest health and Lowest Armor.
Of course at the start where they were pretty much unkillable that was an acceptable decision. Now with the nerfs to healing, defense, mobility and the insanely long cool down on Utilities i think it is about time that they were buffed up a bit in Health and/or Toughness so they CAN spend points and gear more damage rise.
It is strange how little condition damage actually affects us. I mean:
You: 1,464 Condition damage – Drakes Breath – 8,328 Damage Damage
me: 245 Condition Damage – Drakes Breath 4, 671 Burning Damage
For a build that has 1,219 more Condition damage, i would have thought it would have done more burning for some reason. I would defo be interested in seeing some gameplay footage. Personally for Burning i find Damage > Duration.
You thought about taking Elemental Power? As the Burning from that would be just over 2,000damage. 25% chance with 30second duration seems pretty good.
The problem with Ele and conditions isn’t the duration – its the lack of conditions. While Burning will do a lot of damage, it will be easily removed thanks to the fact you have no other conditions covering it. You have TWO damaging conditions and that is it.
Curious to see some gameplay though if you get any in WvW that is.
(due to length)
So, back to the question at hand, why are ele utility skills so “bad”. My short answer is, because it’s necessary. Buffing these skills in any significant way would do more than just give the ele a small advantage, it would elevate them beyond any other profession. In my opinion, it would completely destroy any meta.
It is “necessary” for the LOWEST Health and LOWEST armor class in the game to have the longest cool downs on Utilities? Sorry don’t buy it, That is no excuse we simply in our current state do not deserve to have such long cool downs. Even if they were reduced it wouldn’t FIX the BIGGEST problem with the class and that is the sustain.
You are saying that reducing the cool down on what is mostly rubbish skills anyway would suddenly make them the best class in the game? Sorry that is simply wrong. We dont even have the best Condition removal and this IS a condition Meta after all. we would need HUGE buffs in order to suddenly become the new Meta.
My suggestion with the ele utility skills would be to view them as boon sources or “get out of jail free” cards, like mist for and earth armor. If you find yourself outnumbered, just become vapor and swiftness or dash away. If you see a loner you want to gank, then drop all your cantrips and surprise him with your stacks of might.
My suggestion for ele would be to buff up either (or both) the health and armor. This way we would not be forced into going defensive when it comes to builds and armor thus allowing us a bit more freedom to go for a build that we would like but that would currently get melted in seconds.
Mist Form and Armor of Earth are NOT get out of jail free cards, both in WvW and S/TPvP they mean nothing and more times than not you WILL still die when using them. You do know that we have NO access to skills when we go Mist Form right? we aren’t the warrior with its Invuls that can continue to deal damage and use other skills. All we get is a 66% movement speed increase for 3 seconds, pretty much EVERY class will still be able to catch up to us in that time. We would have to go right from that into Ride The Lightening and Burning Retreat to stand a chance at escape – and what do we do if they are on cool down? We die.
I’m curious to see how this conversation develops. I believe that everyone in here who says that ele utilities are “underpowered” or “useless” has a clear misunderstanding of the purpose.
I think the only one with the misunderstanding here is you. You clearly have no idea about the problems the class has, You seem to think that the Lowest health and lowest armor class in the game is right up there with the best classes in the game – we are at the bottom with Rangers.
I’m a mesmer player who has been getting into wvw ele recently and here’s my take on the whole thing:
Elementalists have access to 20 weapons skills at a time, all of which are extraordinarily diverse and generally on respectably low cool downs (before any traits). Because of this, they can generally fulfill most build requirements with just weapon choices without compromising on situational needs. That is, what would generally take other classes both weapon and utility skills can generally be done with just ele’s weapon skills. This means the utility skills can’t follow suit as the other classes do, sparing engineer.
Can you explain how the “20 weapon skills” matter? I mean we can not use them all, we only get 5 at a time and most of them have ridiculously long cool downs for what they do anyway.
As i have stated we DON’T have 20 weapon skills at a time we have 5. and unlike every other class if we are running certain weapons we don’t have the option for Melee or range. Take D/D for example we are forced into melee 100% of the time or deal no damage.
It’s important to note that ele’s have insane access to boon through their utility skills and attunements but choosing a few traits. Because of this, the utility skills become less of the standard “utility” skill and more of a source of specific boons, like gaining might when using a cantrip. This means the the individual skills, by necessity, are less “powerful”.
Consider the other option, where the cooldowns on all cantrips were reduced and their numbers all enhanced. In this case, no one would play anything but ele, the meta game would likely degrade.
Insane boon access means nothing when you are the class with the lowest health and armor and forced into defensive traits/gear to counteract that. This alone reduced our damage potential more than anything else, if you as an Ele go Zerker, all it would take is 1 dodge, 1 invul or 1 missed skill chain and you would be dead.
Lets have a look shall we, without traits D/D has access to – Swiftness(Air 5) and that is it via weapons. Utilities wise -
Armor of Earth 90second cool down 6 second stability, 6 second Protection
GoEH- either 3stacks of might(20sec), regen(10sec), Swiftness(10 sec) or Prot(3 sec)
and that is it, everything else requires traits. Now we have traits to MUCH improve that but again why not? after all it is coming at a cost.
I totally disagree, Even if Cantrips were reduced in cool down and given a buff this wouldn’t have that much impact on the class as they would STILL be required to build defensive thanks to the lowest health and lowest armor.
As an example, I’d like to compare the mesmer’s blink with the ele’s blink cantrip. For the mesmer, blink is usually a necessary skill, as battlefield movement is essential to success. It’s on a similar cooldown to that of the ele, but it has a significantly longer range. Naturally, one would assume this means that the mesmer has more in-combat mobility than an elementalist. Unfortunately, this is incorrect. In addition to this blink, ele’s have access to a plethora of swiftness spells and a variety of “dashes”, if you will.
Lets compare them:
Lightening Flash: 40 second cool down, 900 range, deals damage
Blink: 30 second cool down, 900range and stun break
Personally i would take the stun break and lower cool down over a little bit of damage, no stun break and a longer cool down myself, don’t know anyone else though. If you are comparing what else they have. Mesmer – Stealth, Decoy, Phase Retreat, iLeap, Into The void – both swiftness and interrupts and can KILL people by pulling them off cliffs and ledges. Lets not forget the clones, Phantasms, invuls, blocks and everything else.
Curious as to where all this swiftness is from? You are also forgetting that you are talking about a weapon set that is 100% Melee. You can swap from Melee to range every 10 seconds if you have the right weapon set. As i have shown that unless traited we have ONE access to Swiftness and we have Ride The Lightening, 20second cool down, 40 if Blinded, target as Aegis and such and Burning Retreat with 600 range and 15 second cool down
Not a pain if you opened up hundreds of the Giant gift boxes right on patch day December 10th :/
Ignoring the fact you have to be 500 tailor as well….
Condition builds are broken. That is pretty much it. It takes very little skill to spam conditions on someone until they die. The simple fact is even with all the added condition cleanses – it is not enough and it will never be enough due to the way Anet designed some classes that just have FAR to much access to conditions. Necromancer SHOULD be the kind of conditions and yet we get Mesmer, Engineer and i even saw a Ranger condition build today. Conditions are simply out of control, they should NOT be as strong as they are and they should not be as “burstable” as they are.
Pretty sure, the only classes that cant do condition builds are Eles and Guardians. Eles just dont have anywhere near enough access to conditions and they arent strong enough stat Toughness/health wise.
We lack sustain for ONE reason – Our low health and low armor forces us into taking defensive trait/gear to counter the fact that we are the lowest health and lowest armor in the game and yet our damage isnt anywhere near that of most other classes and they can go full zerker due to class mechanics or skills that make them immune to damage, conditions, have Invuls, Blocks as well as stealth and such.
Ele need to have their health bumped up so that players arent forced to take defensive traits/gear. I mean you can go full zerker but if just one of your skills is blocked or dodged and that ruins your burst chain you are simply going to die.
I would say our low health, low armor and average damage is the reason we lack sustain because we are forced to trait and build for defense which means we will live a little longer but still end up dying because we will be no threat damage wise as we have had to trait and build to counter the health and armor weakness we have.
Neither of those “King” classes are unbeatable or counterable in 1v1. A P/D perp thief will wreck both of them.
Mesmer only weakness is Conditions, so of course a Condition build with stealth and plenty of it would have a very high chance of winning, that means nothing though because most thieves go zerker/damage anyway i think i see maybe 3-5 condi Thieves a week. Nothing more. Mesmer IS the king of 1 Vs 1 though, unlike say Warrior Mesmer has a weakness. Thieves are very strong in 1 Vs 1 as well though.
I guess you haven’t seen a good ele 1v1 then. Because they are just as competitive 1v1 as most of these classes.
I have seen plenty of good Eles, they could maybe compete in S/TPvP but in WvW? Not a chance. It would take more than an Evasion on one skill to make a class with the lowest health, lowest armor, longest defensive cool downs and no stealth to be a “king” of 1Vs1. I am talking Mesmer, Condi build, Warrior kind of “Kings” not the kind that manages to kill up levels.
Mist form has a long cooldown because you could heal in it, use abilities and had stability. They removed all those cool functionality from it and didn’t fix the cooldown.
Typical way the elementalist is balanced in this game. Now they are supposedly trying to help us survive with the next patch while they are the one that broke it in the first place. They could just undo the useless nerfs instead.
The problem is – The changes will have little to no affect on our survivability. I think moving us up to medium armor level would be a decent start, though i think that would just have to many issues, they could just buff the Toughness/Armor we start with but keep us as Light Armor users. Or they could bump us up a tier in Health. We don’t have the insane damage or survivability as we did way back at the start so i think it is time that we got some buffs.
-cut out all the bias towards Warrior and admit they are not balanced -
I am saying that only warriors and Devs are the ones that think Warrior is balanced, but what would expect from Devs that play this class. Not exactly possible to have a balanced game if ALL the devs play the same class now is it?
This would be the same people that had MANY issues balancing classes and builds in the Original Guild Wars even going so far as to KILLING builds with their heavy use of nerfs…..
Also, strange that you say that they all want these threads to stop – i would be guessing they are all warriors worried about getting the class balanced. I also didn’t create this thread.
What, a Necro can’t dodge hammer attacks – they’re only the most telegraphed attacks the warrior has. Mesmer get’s a free ride from you for being able to beat a warrior? You know it’s true so let’s just overlook the fact with a snide comment about how they are “supposed” to beat warriors, right? And Engies, sheesh, I know you run one, and that you don’t believe they can handle a warrior speaks volumes about your skill level (or rather the lack thereof.)
They can dodge TWICE, that is it. No access to Vigor or anything like most classes. So they dodge a few attack then what? with little access and in some cases no access to stability due to it costing 30 trait points and having VERY poor duration or the fact it is removed in seconds means not alot they can do when the stun spam begins. Of course they can pop into DS and Doom the person away, but that just delays them and they will be back….
Not said anything about my Engineer, havent played it in A LONG time, so not quite sure what you are getting at with that one. Also, i said Mesmer because they are a DUELING class, they are built to DUEL, would you like me to say DUEL any more times before you understand?
You know, I’ve seen you here crying all over these forums about how big and mean and nasty warriors are. You always bring out the same ridiculous statements that have no basis in reality. You obviously know nothing about the warrior class, or for that matter the classes you play, since you obviously get man-handled so badly by every warrior you run across. Maybe this game just isn’t for you? You could try your hand at Farmville, I hear that’s pretty easy.
Lol, so stating something that is obvious to everyone (except warriors and devs, well they play warriors so…) means i am “crying” Not quite. The simple fact is when you have a class that has access to so much then of course issues are going to come up, Unlike some rather than seeing them nerfed into the ground i would rather they be BALANCED. Shame it wouldnt really take that much to bring them back into balance with everyone else. Stopping them from having the BEST regen in the whole game by simply equipping a signet would be a start, reducing the mobility as well because i am sorry but anyone that thinks a HEAVY armor class should be the most mobile in the WHOLE game has no idea what they are talking about.
It is okay for them to be strong, but they should not be strong at so much without changing there build. Healing Signet for example. It is equip and ignore, no need for Healing Power is it insane already. These are the kind of things that need to be balanced.
The weakness of the warrior are many and have all been listed above by someone with more patience for your idiocy than I have. (Thank you Sin Stonestrike and Harper!) You just can’t comprehend them because you are so filled with hatred towards the warrior class. There is no having a reasonable discussion with you, or the rest of the warrior-hate zealots that swarm to these thread to spit out your bile. You should be ashamed of yourself for turning what could have been a very useful forum section into your personal crusade ground.
If warriors were truly so OP, they wouldn’t spend their time running away – something else that all the babies come here to cry about….
Of course you would disagree, you wouldn’t happen to play a Warrior would you?
Lets see, Sin Strone pretty much said The passive is fine. This is simply wrong, the ONLY people that think the passive is okay and not a total joke is again Warriors and Devs. Already stated how that JUST equipping it is MORE passive healing than someone with more than 500 Healing Power would get from FOUR stacks of regen, they also have this ALL the time and can not be removed, unlike Regen. That is no where near balanced seeing as they dont even need Healing Power for that.
They also said the High health, High armor, burst and sustain is fine, this again is wrong rather than looking at everything as a separate thing you need to look at them as a WHOLE. It is okay to have one, even a couple but to have ALL of it in the same build with the BEST regen in the game is simply not balanced. Lets not forget they don’t need to trait or build for defense thanks to the highest health and armor in the game coupled with the insane passive regen and the blocks and invuls they have…
So while they have an opinion, unlike some who just think having an opinion is wrong and means someone is moaning or something, it doesn’t mean they are right. It is strange that MORE people are saying they are overpopwered than those saying they aren’t – let me guess they are all terrible players as well that are just crying to get a “balanced” class nerfed into the ground…
It is ok Ash,,, you can stop now.. We understand you are do not actually play this class and are just trolling our forums
I do love the elitism of some people on these forums, So because i think Conjures are rubbish, with FGS being the exception mostly thanks to its high damage yet i see it used more to ESCAPE than to attack means nothing.
The only reason it looks so “good” is because just how average all our elites are…
So you are saying that hammer and greatsword conjures are bad? They are weak? honestly if you can say that with a straight face, you have not played this class at any real level.
You can slot those two and get amazing results in all 3 aspects of the game.
Greatsword is decent, though i wouldnt exactly compare it to the others with it being an Elite, i see more Eles using it to RUN than to actually fight with as well and dont forget the long cool down. Though it needs to have a higher usage number considering it is a 180second cool down elite.
As i said, 60second cool down and 15 uses? What is worse is that the AUTO ATTACK counts towards it…
Because you know better about class balance than the devs do.
You mentioned before that warriors don’t need protection – that’s because of their High HP, High armor and high regen. Don’t contradict yourself.
These being the devs that PLAY warrior, You dont find it interesting that the class the devs play also just happens to be the class with the most broken passive healing in the game, highest health, highest armor, insane mobility and very strong CC as well as blocks and immunities – which still allow them to heal and deal damage…
Sorry but an 8% nerf to a broken passive is nothing. If it was PROPERLY nerfed like 20-25% then sure i could understand the need to buff the Active but currently 8% nerf is the loss of like 38 healing per a second – You REALLY think that is a worthy nerf considering the active WILL be buffed by MUCH more than that to compensate…
I think my idea is a balanced one:
Passive: Nerf 25% – Reduced to 294 per a second
Active: Buff 50% – Increased to 4,900
Cool down: Increased by 5 seconds to 25seconds
I think that would be pretty balanced. Increase the Healing Power for it so that it can become very strong but mean that people will have to BUILD for it to be strong rather than just equip it and laugh at everyone elses poor regen.
Can you point to where i have contradicted myself? because i havent said they should have Protection – because they dont need it.
Sorry but if you think conjures are weak, you have never played this class.
Sorry but because YOU dont think they are weak, doesnt mean everyone thinks that way.
Most of Ele Utilities are of high cool down, even if they are pretty average. I would go as far to say that most of the Utilities are pretty poor.
Conjures – 60 second duration? 15 uses? What is that all about?
Signets – Most average with even worse actives that make the passive better…
Glyphs – Long cool downs, lesser ele sucks. Renewal sucks as well
Arcane – Meh. Blast finisher every 30seconds? 5 crit hits every 45seconds? just meh
Cantrips – Mostly rubbish or have very long cool downs. Some just too weak.
To be honest I think the active should be crappy with such a good passive.
I don’t get why the devs want to buff the active and nerf the passive when the whole point of the skill is the passive and you only use the active when you’re outplayed, and 3/4 of the time it doesn’t save you, even in PvE with the stupid mob AI.
I like my idea of having it do an AoE heal because it doesn’t increase warrior sustain, it only increase warrior support. So if you see a teammate dying you could sacrifice your signet passive to give him a little buff in health. And then increase the cooldown to like 30 or 40 seconds because using the signet should be a big deal and have consequences.
Because it requires NO skill and the Passive is FAR to strong for something that requires no healing power. I have more than 500Healing Power and i would need FOUR stacks of regen to be the same or just slightly better than a Signet that is equip and forget. Doesn’t need healing Power either because it is already brokenly strong.
Why does it need to be buffed at all? afterall, its a 8% nerf and Warriors will refuse to use it unless it is insanely overpowered with a short cool down anyway…
8% isn’t all that much tbh. Still makes it better than the pre-buff state. I’ll still be using it in PvE and WvW since it suits my style and build. PvP is a different ball game though, never felt HS was that strong there. The Signet doesn’t need to be buffed per se, but it needs to become useful.
I meant they will refuse to use the active as you said 8% is nothing. So i don’t see why it SHOULD have the active buffed, i mean if the passive was given a 20-25% nerf then sure i would undertsand but 8% nerf is what 35-40Hps…that is nothing.
(edited by ArmageddonAsh.6430)
Yeah i think having 5 single Elementals would be A LOT better. They could then all be on the same 60second cool down and stay until die sort of thing. It would then make them easier to balance as well.
An Arcane elemental would be pretty cool as well. I think one that skills change based on the elementalists attunement, this one would deserve a higher cool down i think. The appearance of the Arcane elemental wouldn’t change. Neither would the attacks but the affects would. For example
The Basic attack:
Fire – Deals impact damage and burning in a reasonable radius of the target
Water – bouncing attack that heals/gives regen to allies and inflicts poison on enemies
Air – Bouncing attack that has high crit chance
Earth – Deals Impact damage and inflicts a random conditions on target
Make it so they have 5 attacks and a 6th that the Elemental can trigger, say 40second cool down just like Flesh Golem that changes based on the attunement. Make it so that it triggers any Glyph traits as well.
Was merely a suggestion, currently there is very little alternatives to making the active all that great and figured a slight reduction in damage briefly with a passive heal nulled for recharge would be decent. Alternatively I was thinking a regen boon, but I felt that would be rather redundant.
Stability would have been a bit too strong as well.
Why does it need to be buffed at all? afterall, its a 8% nerf and Warriors will refuse to use it unless it is insanely overpowered with a short cool down anyway…
I think they were referring specifically to the boon, Protection.
They don’t have it because it is not needed. That simple. When you have an Overpowered passive heal, highest health, highest armor, Blocks, Invuls, insane mobility and plenty of CC you don’t need protection.
Warriors have no protection by design.
They make up for it by having high health and higher regens/heals.
Giving them protection would probably open a huge can of worm and require nerfs elsewhere.
And I’d personally like its use effect to be a support one. ie: It heals others for 50% of what it heals the warrior.
No protection? Blocks and Invuls dont count to you as protection? Lets not forget that Healing Signet continues to heal while they are immune and they can continue to deal damage or run…
Just saying, I would take Spirit of Nature EVERY DAY vs. Glyph of Elementals, regardless of the cooldown. The Glyph is a mediocre skill on a great skill cooldown, whereas Spirit of Nature is a game-changing skill on a proper game-changing skill CD.
This. I see nothing that the Elemental offers making it worthy of a 180second cool down. The fact you get the choice of 4 elementals means nothing when they are all average.
The biggest problem is the passive is also too strong. The cool down is rather low as well so so if you make the Active much stronger then the cool down needs to be increased as well. A measly 8% nerf to the Passive doesnt warrant any changes to the active. I am going to guess though that the Active will be buffed for around 20-25%
If you can’t stop the Warrior from Bannering a Lord you didn’t deserve to take the keep. It is really that simple. I don’t feel sorry for you at all.
How do you you stop one that pops immunities rushes in and pops banner?, they also have blocks to fall back on as well. They have PLENTY of skills to make sure they get from an entrance and to the lord without dying.
Remember some of the entrances are RIGHT at the lord – i think Hills is the only one that isnt.
Warriors are juggernauts on the battle field. They are built for sustain and for using their momentum to burst or wear down opponents. Team fights are where I see them shine, but overall I believe warriors to be in a good position as a class.
I am a casual gamer, I main a ranger, and I do not play a warrior. As such, I do not know all there is to know about class balance issues. However, my experience with fighting warriors leads me to this:
Warriors weaknesses are that they are obvious, they have very telegraphed moves, and they rely heavily on being in melee range to do most of their damage. As I said before, they are most effective when they can keep up their momentum. Disrupt their chains and keeping control of the fight is key to victory (especially in 1v1 situations).
As more of a side note, here are my thoughts on some commonly addressed issues with the warrior profession:
1) HSig’s passive should not be nerfed, just increase the incentive for the active (a short duration damage booster might be nice, since it allows for setup before combat or a burst during combat).
2) High health, high armor, good sustained and burst damage, and party support is what I think a warrior should be. Anet nailed this archetype and as such, should not be changed.
3) Movement skills are okay. If anything a few seconds nerf and nothing more (if they get nerfed then please nerf ranger’s mobility as well, it is too easy to get into and out of a fight otherwise). Btw, a suggestion like double the cool-down if no target is hit seems silly and unrealistic in game. If you bring up Elementalist’s Ride the Lightning (though I do think it was nerfed a bit too hard!) then please consider this: RtL in Gw1 required a target… you became lightning and arched to a target, which makes perfect sense. Before nerf it was used to create huge gaps in an extremely short amount of time and needed a slight nerf.
4) Warrior hammer is fine…. if you talk about control then please consider guardian hammer bunkers, necromancer fear builds, or engineer turret/bomber point holders.
I hope that warriors will not see a lot of change in the upcoming patches. They are in a good place as a profession and feel very fluid in their trait/weapon/utility choices. I often win against them no matter their builds, and love to play good warriors as the fights are always fun.
You comparing them just on S/TPvP? because it sounds like it to me. The passive heal is WAY to high they dont even need to take Heal Power, taking Adrenal Healing alone thanks to the Healing Power they get (along with Vit) pushes it to 400heals PER a second….for what? they simply equip a signet, spend 15 trait points and that is it. That is not skill based what so ever.
The fact that with more than 500 healing power and being in water attunement with the Water heal AND having regen my healing is STILL less than that of warrior and i have had to take traits and gear with Healing Power on it – You think that is fair? Especially when you consider the fact that Warriors = Highest Health, Highest Armor and Eles = Lowest Health and Lowest Armor….
The problem is they should NOT be great at nearly everything the game offers. They should have to trait/build to have things not get them for simply being a Warrior. The Regen, Mobility and CC need to be toned down.
Sure, what is not broken about a HEAVY armor class not only having the best regen, not only having the highest health and armor as well as great damage, great burst and lots of CC they ALSO have to be the most mobile class in the game….Balanced? Not a chance.
“Fine” Necro have what 3 fears – Staff, DS and the wall and they have to be traited for longer duration and cause damage and lets not forget that fear is goes pretty much with Necros defense….
Now all a Warrior has to do is equip hammer and boom – stuns every 10 seconds, loads of cripple and weakness….Yeah thats not balanced. You sure you don’t have a warrior? because you sound very much like one that is worried about nerfs (that are more than needed!)
Wow, you hit hard.
welcome to the power creep of using nearly full (all but 2 items) Ascended. Celestial is a right pain to get as well…
You’re purposely ignoring any evidence that doesn’t fit your view. I’ll list all summon skills so you can see the glyph of elementals is actually the best:
Spirit of Nature: 60s duration, 180s recharge
Thieves Guild: 30s duration, 180s recharge
Glyph of Elementals: 60s duration, 120s recharge
Asura Golems: 40s duration, 180s recharge
Charr Warband: 30s duration, 240s recharge
Hounds of Balthazar: 30s duration, 240s recharge
Sylvan Hound: 60s duration, 180s recharge
Mistfire Wolf: 30s duration, 150s rechargeThe recharge starts when the elemental goes down, so if it lasts the full duration, the actual recharge will be 180 seconds. However, this means that it’s as high as any other skill at worst and much lower at best. And unlike other skills, it can be traited to lower the recharge even further.
So what you’re saying is simply untrue.
interesting you dont mention the ONE summon that really counts, Golem.
Spirit of Nature: 60s duration, 180s recharge – Heals allies and has a a skill that removes 5 conditions from 5 people and resses 3 people. Seems a fair cool down considering.
Thieves Guild: 30s duration, 180s recharge – Summons 3 Thieves IIRC
Asura Golems: 40s duration, 180s recharge – Race. Should be weak
Charr Warband: 30s duration, 240s recharge – Race. Should be weak.
Hounds of Balthazar: 30s duration, 240s recharge – Race. Should be weak
Sylvan Hound: 60s duration, 180s recharge – Race. Should be weak.
Mistfire Wolf: 30s duration, 150s recharge – Is from Limited Edition. Should be weak.
Flash Golem – lives until dies, 60 second cool down – Cripples targets, has a 40second charge skill that knocks people down or launches them. Has traits for more health, traits to transfer condition, trait to heal master….
Good luck with that, You will still die a lot. I run something like it and still die. The problem will be you will not be able to kill anyone except up level people, you should still be able to escape most classes – just don’t dream of killing anyone.
If you want a dangerous bunker sort of build – go Engineer in my opinion, better damage, better defenses and still has great self healing potential with so many blasts and water fields.
I think they are in the same way they are pretty much unkillable in the right build. Insane self healing and mobility and could wear people down. Though i dont think they “feel” like D/D in the skills and such they have it is more in what they can do.
Wow, it seems that there is no limit to the number of people who quite simply can’t play and come here to cry for nerfs instead of getting better at the game.
Yes, I main a warrior. I get taken out quite often. Any PU mesmer can take down a warrior while half asleep. A well played necro will melt a warrior even faster. Grenade spamming engineers also have an easy time with warriors.
If warriors were truly so OP, they wouldn’t spend their time running away – something else that all the babies come here to cry about…..
So it requires a Necro playing WELL to beat any Warrior? What about other classes and other builds? You mention losing to Mesmer the class that is a dueling class shows nothing about how strong/weak they are as they are fighting a class that is MEANT to be a dueling class.
“Grenade spamming engineers also have an easy time with warriors. " would this be against Naked warriors with no weapons, traits, heals, utilities and elite? Rather than just saying they would have an easy time how about going abit more in depth – is the warrior in your situation good? bad? decent? what weapons would they be using?
Also ANY warrior that can’t CC spam a necro to death is a bad warrior – seeing as how Necro have like the lowest amount of access to stability in the whole game, cant run, and has like 2 defense options…
Any DECENT warrior will MELT a Necro in seconds spamming the Hammer on them.
Armageddon mentions Engineer cause of Confusion/Poison/Perma Burning, I’d much rather fight a engineer (which I usually beat in a 1v1 fight on my ranger) any day of the week vs a Necromancer…simply because the Engineer while having more potential damaging conditions doesn’t put out as many conditions as a Necromancer does.
I would rather fight a Necro, other than Signet of Spite they arent really that amazing. They have low/poor defensive options You mention Torment, its AWFUL on Necromancer and on a HUGE cooldown as well..
An Engineer can easily burst you with conditions and have the defenses and healing to counter your abilities they can also reset fights where as the Necro is either win or die. They can burst you with A LOT of Confusion can have Perma Burning and Perma Poison as well as insane (compared to necro) combat mobility
They also bring plenty of knockbacks/interrupts as well depending on the condition build.
that being said, any decent player playing condi build already has the upper hand seeing it is out of control how easy it is to inflict conditions compared to removing them…
Also wtf…evasion with Burning speed.Eles will be kings in 1vs1 now.I say next patch is a boost.
No. Simply No. Mesmer, Thief, Warrior, Necro and Engineer will STILL be “better” in a 1Vs1. Though that depends on peoples levels, build and such. But in no way will the change to Burning Speed make us “kings” of 1Vs1
In my opinion they ARE sub par, most of the time they are NO threat to any player and can simply be ignored. The fact that they cast the “best” attack them selves is SERIOUSLY annoying as well
Then you get onto the fact of the low duration and the high cool down. No excuse for it. Simple as that. You cant use the “oh we have 4 though” that means nothing when we can ONLY summon ONE at a time…
They need to be buffed in my opinion.