Guild Wars 2

william dj.6953:

I like the game the way it is. But sry, I already put my stick away when I realized the horse was dead. I know its pointless.
I know according to some, my opinion is worthless and I shouldn’t even have the right to post on this thread, as if my money for the game didn’t have the same value as others.

How so? Who said that your opinion is worthless? The only people who I remember voiced something remotely close to “shouldn’t even have the right to post on this thread” were those who asked to report and close threads about daily cap back in December. And as the matter of fact, your money right now have more value from mine. Becouse I stopped playing GW2 and buying gems and you still play it (and perhaps still buying gems). So you are now rightfully more valuable customer for Arena. But now a question. Would you honestly quit playing GW2, if the cap on dailies would be introduced? You dont have to post the reply here becouse it could potentially reinforce my argument and you would not like that I guess. Just answer that to youself. If your answer is “Yes, I would stop playing and supporting GW2 if they would introduce the high global cap on dailies.” and it is honest, then I guess we would have a problem. But in such case, only Arena gets access to metrics allowing to decide what to make up from this uncompromisable sitaution.

william dj.6953:

@Mireles, beating a dead horse no matter how much, ain’t gonna make it get and start running, Selfish people are oblivious to their line of thinking, they genuinely believe their desires and that which satisfies them are for the greater good. Just let it go.

Sure. But here is a tricky part. So let’s say I am selfish becouse I promote some way in which the game should work. Now you promote a way you think the game should work. What does that make of you? In the end, anyone who has an opinion about something could be called selfish. You like Democrats? You are selfish! You like Republicans? You are selfish!

Mireles Lore.5942:

I never said everyone agrees with me. I just said your idea does nothing to improve the game for anyone…. it just puts limits on everyone so one type of player can be satisfied in their mentality. It is never okay to limit others even if they wont notice that limit strictly to make a play-style less taxing to maintain.

You just did it again. First of all. Putting a cap would improve the game for me. That is one. One is greater from noone. But I would bet all my virtues that there are more than just me. In fact there are some even in this thread. You say at “limit” as if it is something innately bad. For me limit is not a constraint. Its an improvement. Its like adding the finish line (with champaign and cookies) to a marathon race. For me that limit is a feature I would love to see.

Mireles Lore.5942:

Just because you don’t find the number of people it will effect significant doesn’t make it a good idea in the interest of improving the game for everyone. You are still holding one group of players with more importance than the other and I don’t feel that is what this game is about.

If it even takes away from a single person just so completionist don’t have to feel compelled to continue doing things, I find it a bad idea. You are basically telling that player, “hey since this group of people didn’t want other people to be able to earn rewards indefinitely, you stop here, you can no longer earn rewards on a daily basis.” Its that, what makes a hard cap for the sake of completionists a totally selfish idea.

Your goal for this cap is to limit rewards and goals strictly to satisfy one player types mentality, and that is never okay no matter how obscure the limit is because someone will reach it. This does nothing to improve the game for anyone as you could have the same experience without a cap if not its the players mentality that prevents them from doing so not the game.

What I find very disturbing in your posts is that you associate your own point of view with the “everyone else” group. In other words, “I dont not agree with you and so does everyone else”. Where I, for a change, already stated in my very first post to which I assume you replied, that I recognize that I represent a certain group of players and if the needs of this group collide with the majority, I can openly give up my rights to enjoy the game. Now you come in, setup a position of someone who would be concerned about the possible situation where one would stop getting daily AP after reaching a certain very high cap and then proceed to falsely claim that “everyone else” are on the same boat as you (and tbh I think that the majority of people dont even care about AP that much so they are neither in your group or mine). Just becouse a proposed change wants to disturb the specific status quo, does not mean that “everyone else” agree with that status quo (or more importantly, even care about it). Feel free to discuss merits of AP daily cap but please dont claim that it aims at disturbing the game experience of “everyone else”.

Mireles Lore.5942:

Like I said, one type of player wanting something isn’t a good enough reason to take away from everyone else. These is nothing stopping you from setting your own goals and stopping. There is no game update required for you to set goals for yourself.

The “entire thing for completionist players” is just that, a mentality that exists in players. If unlimited rewards upsets these players it is the players fault not the game fault. The game does not need to be tailored to satisfy the competition mentality in a way that prevents players to earn rewards in excess of your own goals no matter how high they might be. That is just selfish reasoning.

And like I said. Your “take away from everyone else” would concern who exactly? A few players who who wake up in year 2020 and complain that they dont get AP from dailies anymore? Im going to take on the same standard on both edges here. You say that taking away things from casual players and giving something to hardcore grinders would be bad becouse there are 500,000 casuals and 500 hardcore grinders (numbers made up by me). Needs of 500,000 overshadows needs of 500. Agreed. The problem is, adding a very high cap on dailies would never concern all those casuals becouse they would stop playing GW2 long before they would even reach the cap. Now to the other edge. You say that there might be few semi-casuals who will start to be upset in 2018-2022 that they stopped getting AP from GW2 dailies. I will take a bold assumption that the amount of completionist players upset with current daily scheme (as evidenced by several threads made about it in 2013) is greater than those few who would make their way to actually ever reach that cap and then be unhappy about no further daily AP progression. So where does this democratic system (which btw. keeps telling to get the kitten out if I dont like it) take us in this situation?

Mireles Lore.5942:

Why even add a hard cap in the first place if its so insignificant and doesn’t effect anyone?

And yes I played the guild wars 1 for 8 years casually. So yes i would hit that cap, stopping me for earning additional rewards because some player that didn’t want people to earn extra AP in excess of what he wanted/could. I don’t find that a good enough reason to add a cap.

Becouse it adds a goal. A finish line. Killing 1,000,000 dolyaks in WvW might sound insane but it is a goal. Some people like aiming at goals. Goal serves as a motivator. The reason to make the cap high is exactly to not negatively affect people who just like to obtain some daily rewards. Getting 10 years worth of dailies would be a humongous effort and hardly anyone would reach it. How many players maxed their PvP rank in GW1? If you are a GW1 veteran, you should know that very very few becouse it required insane grind. But there was a finish line on that race. With current daily design in GW2 there is no finish line. No goal to aim at and steer toward. If you are a completionist player you can either go all-in (which means debilitating grind where you cant even leave on vacations without Internet access) or throw the towel and go play something else. If you dont give a kitten about AP, the system is fine indeed. But so it would be fine if a very high cap would exist which 99% of players will never reach anyway. But the existence of this cap alone would fix the entire thing for completionist players target-locked at that AP grind.

Mireles Lore.5942:

So let me get this strait…. You want to place a cap on how much AP ANY player could earn so you as a AP farming don’t have to feel compelled to do them? That is the most self centered reason I have ever heard.

There are a vast number of players that do not play every day like myself and would like to earn a little more AP for my chests in any given day to make up for days that I miss to unlock my chests.

Now you want to take that away from players like me limiting how much we can earn in a day, so you don’t have to feel compelled to do the grind to say on top of some obscure scoreboard? Leaving newer players without any means to catch up to older players because everyone would be earning the same AP every day.

Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it to… you want to stay on top of that scoreboard without having to put any extra effort into it to hold that spot… You know you could always just stop doing them without taking them away from everyone else…. that is an option you know.

The game does not have to be tailored to sustain your narrow play-style. If you are not having fun keeping up with the leader board stop doing it, nobody cares that you are able to log in every day and earn all the APs.

Horrible idea, this does nothing to improve the game for anyone, it just takes away reward. If they are to tedious for you to do every day the solution is to simply stop doing them and be without those AP points without taking them away from everyone else.

It would be nice if before producing your angry text you would just please stop for one moment and think about it one more time. How does a hard cap take away anything from you in your situation?

Lets review an example. A cap does not mean amount of dailies available each day would go down. No, it would stay the same. Hell, they could even add more. A high cap of for example 20,000 AP from dailies would just mean that you will not get any more AP from dailies once you reach 20,000 AP from dailies only. With current AP daily rate it would take around 1333 days of full dailies to reach the cap. More than 3.5 years. If you are in a situation that you only do 10 AP from dailies on average, it would take you 5.5 years to reach the cap. If you only do dailies to get the laurel, but you do that every single day, it would take you 10 years to reach the cap. So please tell me, how does in your situation putting the cap on take away anything from you. Unless you are worried that you will stop gaining AP from dailies in year 2020. Are you?

PS. If you do not play every day I estimate you would reach the cap some time around year 2025. I wonder if you will still be playing GW2 in 2025. I wish the game all the best so I hope you will

Subdue.5479:

There’s not supposed to be a finish line. Dailies are meant to keep people logging in and playing. That’s why they’re dailies.

No finish line means no goal to look for. Just a giant void without bottom. That is demoralizing. It’s a known fact from human psychology that setting yourself certain goals to achieve will motivate you. Looking ahead and realizing that it is impossible to reach certain treshold at which point you will be a “winner” just pushes you to abandon the effort. I quitted GW2 over one month ago after playing it pretty much every single day since release. From this very reason. Too much dailies and no permant cap on them (even a very large one would still be a cap which you can at least attempt to reach). I am pretty certain I will never come back if they keep current daily system working like it does now.

Although to be fair I also accept that this may be a flaw on my own character. Perhaps my mild OCD which prevents me from being happy with the game if my daily/monthly tab is not maxed out is the reason. All I know is that I cant enjoy GW2 (for a great game it still is) if I know that I didnt done some random daily which due to lack of cap can never be made up for. So yeah, if a minority of OCD players will quit over this but in return Arena gains something from broader playerbase, I for sure can accept that and wish them all the best. It’s just that I still fail to see what sort of benefit GW2/Arena gets from not putting the global cap on dailies effort. No answers were ever given so I decided to move on.

I loved the hero/hench system in GW1. The problem is, GW1 was designed with it in mind from the the ground up. GW2 is not designed in this way. It would be very difficult and clunky to try and implement it now.

I am still on the fence about the no-trinity design decission. I can see good things it brought but I can also see the downsides. I would like to just point one thing. I often see here people citing the “LFM healer!” problem. And IMO that is a false claim becouse this issue can be solved be certain solutions without getting rid of the trinity. GW1 was an example where there was a trinity and you could still solo 99% of the content. As someone mentioned before, I think that if each profession had a full working pure healing trait/skill line, it would largely diminish the problem of group composition. Same could be done with tanking although I think that lack of healers is what couses most negative issues.

Wasbunny.6531:

Just so everyone is clear, this is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

Well. There is one thing which is worse from this. Something called champion farm.

Play some Skyhammer matches. Get a Charr/Norn hammer Gaurdian and go to the cannon. Now try to use Banish on people there and see how often it will get dodged or otherwise avoided. Now try the same with Asura Guardian. You will notice the difference. I know I did.

Sube Dai.8496:

Nostalgic much? Go play GW1 for 5 minutes and then rethink your statement.

I played GW1 extensively in 2012 and on few occasions in 2013. This is not nostalgia. Game concepts do not age that bad as technical side (I agree that currently GW1, a game from 2004, is a bit stiff when it comes to engine). I would still take GW1’s skill system over what we have in GW2. In a heartbeat. For me it was so much better. Of course you can disagree. People like different things. But wasnt GW2 advertised as a better GW1? Here is an excerpt from their manifesto: “The original GW featured a CCG-like skill system that allowed each player to discover unique combos and new strategies. Theoretically every Elementalist in the game could approach combat with a different strategy. In fact players found thousands of interesting strategies over the years, most of which our designers never anticipated, which is always the sign of a flexible system. GW2 shares this flexible skill system. […]”

Qaelyn.7612:

And the more I think about it, the more I realize the devs don’t really need to comment on this. Their job is to add new content and new options and new ways of getting things, and that’s what they’ve done. If you don’t want to use the new stuff, don’t use it.

They dont have to do anything. They can ignore all pleas and rants. But I am not sure this is a best business model in the long run. Just becouse you think that certain issue is stupid does not mean it is invalid. It is valid for me enough to made me quit playing GW2. If that is not valid, I dont know what is. I was not even asking or demanding a design change. I was merely asking for acknowledgement. If developer dont even want to acknowledge problems of some part (even if small) of the playerbase, that part at least have a reason to be kittenhurt about it.

PS. And to add on the Ascended thing having impact on gameplay as you mentioned. Again, a matter of perspective. I didnt had a full Ascended gear on any character. I would get it eventually but I did not rush with it at all. Simply becouse I came to conlusion that my gold will be better spent on things that will give me more AP. While spending gold on ascended weapon will only increase my damage a bit which I personally dont care about that much if it does not give me AP directly (altought having good gear was nice when trying Liadri 8-orbs). So for me the power of my character was not that important. However I totally understand people for who it means everything. I am open for their voices if it makes their game experience less fun. Too bad some people are not.

Qaelyn.7612:

What is the point of a “leaderboard” that ends up with hundreds of people all in first place?

And sorry but there’s nothing wrong with the new dailies. They are there to give an extra reward to players who already play matches, and for them, they require no extra time whatsoever. If you don’t want to do them, don’t do them – stop asking for optional features to be removed just because you don’t like them.

Just pointing out that what is optional and what is not is in the eye of the beholder. Look at the amount of outcry that ascended gear introduction created. Is ascended optional or not? You could argue that it is but for some people it will be mandatory becouse they will feel they will be loosing the power wars in WvW or dungeons if they dont get it. You could argue all day long and still one side will not convince the other. Same with AP. For some (most) people they are a meaningless number. For some they are the primary motivator to play. That does not mean that AP is the only thing that can make a game good or bad. Bad game will be bad even with AP. But for people like me those AP and collecting them is what motivates us to play a good game for extended period of time. Otherwise I dont see the point becouse the fun factor alone gets old pretty fast. I also collect various garbage in real life. For instance I never buy a digital edition of a video game if I can buy a boxed one. Why? I guess for most people there is no difference. A game is a game. But no. Once I decide to get a game. I want to get that box and put it on the shelve next to all other boxes as it will add up to my collection. If I would get a digital copy, I would feel something is missing. I still keep game boxes I bought in like 1995 and some Amiga games. Most people would probably ask why I keep all that dust-collecting kitten. Well, for what it is worth, it makes me feel better. Even if I know it is meaningless and nobody cares. What does not make me feel better however is some people who cant simply recognize different mindsets of different people. Becouse clearly, if we play a game for a different reason than you, we must be surely insane. Oh well. Internet.

william dj.6953:

anet forces me to the forums 8 to 10 hours a day, doesn’t that sound ridicules? Well maybe not to some people.

Arena does not force me to anything. If they offer me something I dont like, I dont buy it. I bought something I liked. They changed it to something I dont like. Only viable solution is to leave. Problem is, completionism isnt really something that you can sometimes do and sometimes dont. When it is time restricted, you either go all in or you dont go at all. Its different from anything else which either dont have time restrictions or do have a finish line (something like total AP maximum).

It might be “mind numbing” for you, but for some people achievements are main focus to play games long-term. When I played WoW, my main focus was on achievements. When I really like some game on PS3/Xbox, I dont leave it until I max the achievements in it. Recently I started to play some Diablo III again while waiting for the expansion pack and guess what I am doing? Grabbing missing achievements! The good thing is that despite the fact I did not touched Diablo for over a year, I didnt missed a single achievement and all is still there waiting to be obtained. Think about how much would you miss if you would stop playing GW2 for a year.

All I would really like to see is some sort of reassurance from Arena that their current design goal with AP is to add perhaps even more of them and that they think that getting all AP should be really really time consuming or perhaps even impossible. In this way I would be able to part my ways with this game with a clear consciousness. Although to be fair, as of right now I see it extremely unlikely that I will come back (if someone would tell me half year ago that I will say that about GW2 this December, I would probably laugh). Still… never say never however. After all, getting back to same example again… I opted to give Diablo another chance becouse Blizzard decided to do a bold move and they announced removal of Auction House system from the game. IMO AH was something that destroyed a core concept of playing a dungeon crawler but I would not suspect they will actually admit their mistake and go with a big change of removing it. But they did. So if Blizzard could remove AH from Diablo, maybe Arena will one day make the AP grind system more sensible? That is why I will keep monitoring this thread and forum in general.

Qaelyn.7612:

Awe.1096:

In case of dailies, you miss one day and it will leave a scar on the completion list forever.

My entire point is that this is the problem: the idea that there’s some “completion list” that gets “scarred” because you miss a daily.

That’s not what daily activities are for. They are meant to be simple rewards for people who log in regularly. A few people have warped them into something they feel they “have” to do and now they are complaining that they can’t do them. They shouldn’t change or remove game features because of a small handful of people who use them in a strange manner and refuse to examine and change their self-destructive behavior.

I only suggest the leaderboard be removed because I think it contributes to the obsessive behavior and really serves no important functional purpose.

“They are meant to be simple rewards for people who log in regularly.” You sure about that? When GW2 launched, there were no laurels or AP chests. There were a bunch of simple daily achievements which did nothing aside from boosting your total AP score. So what was the original purpose of this design? Was this design changed? When? We are asking for some word from the source, which is Arena. You may have your idea for what was the purpose of this or that system. I would like to hear that from someone who actually is responsible for designing/implementing it.

Qaelyn.7612:

Nobody is judging how anyone plays.

What’s being judged is people deciding they want to pursue a “leaderboard” that only measures grinding and then complaining that it involves a lot of grinding.

There is no area of this game where you can’t get more or accomplish more or achieve more by spending more time. How much time you spend is your decision, and yours alone.

Except dailies are gated by 24h checkpoints. I see no problem in humongous grind achievements like kill 1,000,000 dolyaks or play sPvP for 10 years until you get enough glory. I really dont. Its a matter of psychology. I would probably never kill 1,000,000 dolyaks but I can always keep telling myself that I am not loosing anything if I dont kill dolyaks for a week. You can make up for it by making a dolyak killing session on the weekend or it will simply mean that you will hit the finish line one week later. In case of dailies, you miss one day and it will leave a scar on the completion list forever. This comes from combination of two facts: 24h gating and lack of the finish line. Its a vile system but I was telling myself for one year that Arena will improve it (as they improved many other things in game) over time. Instead, it kept getting worse and worse and it finally broke my back. Tough luck. Was a fun ride until it lasted.

RoRo.8270:

Romek.4201:

thought you left?

welcome back tasslehoff^^

He is an addict. Called his bluff a while ago. He just makes empty threats like a child to get Devs attention

How do you know he will not leave? People are different. Not everyone who disagree with you is a “child”. Perhaps he thinks about stopping but it is hard for him to let go and he still hopes for a resolution? Maybe his threats are empty, maybe not. But how do you know?

I stopped playing GW2 two days after new dailies were added. Didnt logged since two weeks and I am not going to play it hardcore anymore if they dont do some radical changes to how dailies work in this game. Will play other games instead. GW2 was great but for me completionism is the only thing that could keep me playing it for longer than ~1000h. And since now completionism would require me to forfeit my life in order to keep up, I simply say pass. No hard feelings, if that is what they want to do with their game, its up to them, not to me. I would just really love to hear some word about it to be sure that things are clear and this whole thing is not just some giant flop/misunderstanding.

And to people who still struggle to do all dailies atm but are feeling bad with it. My advice. Just quit. You will get over it with time and you will find other goals. If doing all dailies right now feels like a giant chore, it is not worth it. Just cut the cord and leave. There are many great games to try out which does not require you to play each day for 8h to not loose “stuff”.

Romek.4201:

cant we all jsut report this useless thread made from 6-7 spammors cause they dont get their candy and call it archievement heros or whatever? And it has nothing to do with pvp – its jsut some pve junkies farming useless stuff and whining bout cause its hard.

10 sites now and all from same ppl babbling same bull.. over and over again

do it when you wanna do it but dont whine about when its to hard and stop going on my nerves with this bull.. – its no special gamemode or whatever

i collect playtime – can i have some dev post now how cool i am?

1. Why you are at it, why dont you report every single “useless” thread where someone complains about X profession imbalance, queue problems, AFK-ers in games etc. I mean, its all bunch of useless threads where useless people complain that they dont get their candies. Why should we care? Report them all to hell!

2. This thread was originally made in general section of the forums but it was promptly moved by the moderator to the sPvP subforum. I would prefer if it would stay in General but it seems someone in Arena had a different opinion. Tough luck.

3. People who collect playtime are no more or less “cool” from people who collect gold, PvP wins, pets, glory, rank, MMR or whatever else in this or any other game. Newsflash for you: it is all useless and a waste of time. A playtime collecting nerd is no different from a PvP king nerd or a forum warrior nerd. Common denominator: they/we are all nerds. The general difference is that some have more bile to spare than the others. Make out what you want from it.

4. There are no hard achievements in this game. Lite up the Darkness was the only one “hardish” that I can remember. Either way, pretty much all achievements, PvP or PvE, are time-based and not skill based. If you keep repeating about things being “hard”, you haven’t been paying attention.

5. It is one thread that you dont have to click on. It does not even consider subject that is a concern to you. If you want people to deal with their compulsions to do all achievements, work first on your own compulsion to keep clicking on this thread.

Qaelyn.7612:

Then don’t. Problem solved.

That really is the bottom line, because the issue isn’t anything to do with GW2, just with a small number of (very loud) people who don’t seem to be capable of making wise decisions about how to spend their time. The only complaint I would make to Arenanet, again, is about the stupid leaderboard that encourages pathological accumulation of these meaningless “achievement” points.

It shows again that you simply dont catch the mindset of people playing with AP. I was set to complete it all way before leaderboards were even announced. I was set to complete it all way before laurels were introduced. If AP score would be hidden from an entire world and visible only to me, I would still try to complete them all.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well in Western society anyway, excessive amounts of food are all over the place anyway. If someone can’t stop themselves from eating 6 bowls of food they like every day instead of a reasonable amount, the solution is for that individual to get some help, not to shut down all the restaurants.

And? I dont need “help” since I seem to be completly able to help myself by stopping playing the game which may create issues. But you call this solution as “mind-boggling”. So how is it? Make up your mind please.

And I am not calling to shut down all restaurants. I am vowing to not set my foot in a restaurant which serves only very unhealthy (albeit very tasty as well) dishes. Try to make yourself hungry then think of a place which serves best food in the world and go there, sit in front of table full of food and try not to eat anything. Sure, you will probably succeed. But if you would keep doing this every single day, chances are that at some point you would start going insane. That or you have a very strong will, but that is not a virtue of every average Joe out there. Solution? Dont go there. If Arena is trying to exploit my urge of completionism by introducing large amount of time gated achievements, I might as well not agree to this and leave even though I like the game overall. And thats fine. I can leave. I was just hoping for some form of declaration of philosophy which Arena could give on the case of AP dilemma. If they dont want to say anything, they either dont care about this particular issue or they have something to hide. Both options not very promising for me.

Qaelyn.7612:

That would be a textbook example of “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. Why on earth would you stop playing a game you enjoy because something new and completely optional was added? Mind-boggling.

Why I dont eat 6 bowls of chinese sweet and sour pork every day even though I love eating chinese sweet and sour pork? Think about it. This analogy is in fact very accurate. If you ever was on a fat-loss diet you would know that placing excessive amounts of some food a person loves in front of that person is evil. Same as giving drugs to someone who is trying to quit. Except doing drugs is bad in all quantities while eating or doing dalies in a game is good when done in moderation. It is just that hunting for AP does not turn you on so you claim that it is “mind-boggling”. Some day you will get hit with something that you care about and then some bystander will say that it is “mind-boggling” that you care about something so stupid. Then you will understand.

Of course it has a downside: there are people who want to get as many AP as possible and who do it without driving themselves crazy. You want to take the option away from them because you don’t have the ability to find middle ground you can live with.

That does not compute. Want to get as many AP as possible means you go for as many as possible. Doing all dailies each day is possible. So go for it.

Qaelyn.7612:

Malediktus.9250:

People saying so are intolerant towards other playstyles / playing habbits.

Except that it’s the players complaining themselves that are intolerant towards their own playstyles.

All people like me are saying is: if you don’t want to do something, don’t do it. Stop trying to remove options for people who like them because you lack the self-control to pace yourself and decide what to do and what to skip.

If you are doing something in this game for hours every day not because you like it but because you feel you have to, then you aren’t playing the game, the game is playing you and you need to get some help.

It has been said already but new tPvP dailies are not “more options” to complete the 4 set for a laurel. The only even remotely likely scenario in which you will get 4/4 before doing all 4 old dailies is if you queue into team queue and win 2 matches in a row. But in vast majority of cases you will hit 4/4 before completing a single new “option”. It also means that solo queue “options” are entirely redundant. The only thing for which those new dailies present more options to, is maxing out the AP score. Which most of you “play for fun” players claim to not care about.

And actually I agree about the “if you don’t want to do something, don’t do it” part. I stopped playing GW2 two days after patch with those dailies went live. Didnt logged since over a week now. Despite the fact that I played it pretty much every day since release and I enjoyed it. I am not going to come back unless some sort of hard-cap for daily AP is going to get introduced. Is it a sin to advocate for such change? Especially if I dont see any downsides of it for general population? But other than poking Arena with such suggestion I am not doing anything else. I am happy to play other games atm. There are so many good games around that one lifetime is not enough to digest them all. I am just a bit sad that my adventure with GW2 ended (at least for now) in such a distaseful fashion.

william dj.6953:

stopped reading any post regarding any comments I make since I know its the same tired old thing any who, I believe you may find the answer to if there will be any change to the current system. They didn’t come out and say anything about ap. but its clear they are happy about the population change. and we all know why that is. around 16min on http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3423904

Well considering that they started to revamp the PvP rewards in that patch and a bunch of balance changes were thrown into it, there is no wonder that PvP participation went up. You can level your alts by sPvP now. You can get a bit of gold as well. More rewards are on the way as well. Remember what happened for 1-2 weeks after the WvW season 1 start? Queues were through the roof then. But it all went back to “normal” after a few weeks. Anyway I could say even more, it is quite possible that those new sPvP dailies are boosting the sPvP participation. But are they boosting the overall game activity, QoL and players satisfaction? I would say that it is debatable. But anyhow I would just be happy to get a single dev acknowledgement here. If they are happy about it, good for them. I will say this once again. I will totally accept the fact that the game is no longer (or never was?) designed with priniciples that happen to suit my priorities. I cant have all games my way. I just need to pick those which fits my way the best they can. I would just be glad to hear a word from arena abount concerns from a portion (even if small one) of their playerbase (AP hunters).

william dj.6953:

not all those who like the change are forums users either. There have been post from some saying they don’t want them removed or they like them. I can assure you I have talked to people in the game that like them. Is the desire of those who wish to change things about the game others like, more important?
Of course it is, all one has to do is read this thread and see how there is a group of people who feel anet should kiss their butts, since they are obviously are the only dedicated group of players. They are the only ones who buys gems, only ones who play more than a few hours a day. Its just not possible there are other types of players.

Hence I was asking someone from Arena to just make a simple statement regarding this issue. Something like “We believe new dailies will bring more people to sPvP and we think it is working as intended and going to stay as is for now.” would be OK. I would know that I am no longer a target group of Arena and I need to go look somewhere else. And frankly there is nothing wrong with that, they cant please everyone. One day or the other I am going to be part of that collateral damage. Its bad for me but what can I do? They could also say that they are going to re-evaluate those dailies which possibly would made to wait and see. However I am not ready to give them a benefit of the doubt and I interpret lack of response as exactly same as the worst (for me) possible response. Since I have an issue with a game, I left it, as are many other people leaving many games when they have issues with them. I probably wont be back (for sure not to play hardcore) if the current daily system stays unchanged. If however Arena believes that their design is working well for the greater good, I wish them and people who are enjoying this design good luck.

Darnis.4056:

This is ridiculous; We can’t have Games instead of wins in Pvp, this encourages afkers, which is really the way that Achievement hunters play PVP.

I agree that it should be wins. But not 8. Why not 1 or 2? Besides, AFK-ing is not something that defines AP hunters. Being an AFK-er is a separate thing. The problem is when someone is an AP hunter and an AFK-er. In this case those achievements will bring you some AFK-ers into PvP. But I for example never AFK in a match. On the contrary. I am one of those “serious business” type of people and each time I spot an AFK-er in my team, I rage so much on the chat that I am actually balancing on the edge of risking a ban. Talking about how the AFK-er is a terrible human being without respect to others people time and so on. I need to fight with myself to not use profanities to avoid being reported. I always give my 100% when doing PvP as I see being an AFK-er would be a disgrace for my precious e-honor.

Subdue.5479:

Uh, a daily reward for basically just showing up is not unique to GW2 bud. Every single MMO, especially those which are F2P, has some sort of mechanic that is meant to reward people for playing the game on a daily basis. It’s to keep people there every day, as motivation for them not to take long breaks. This is nothing new.

Please list me MMO-s where you have daily tasks which are a form of a progression (AP are progression for AP hunters) and are unlimited + time exclusive. I dont claim there are none but I highly doubt that is any form of standard as you paint it to be. Unless you mean a standard for some niche titles I would probably not even consider to play, and for a good reason. Becouse from all MMO-s I ever played, GW2 is the only one with such system. For example in WoW there are daily quests. Lots of them. But those quests are done for reputation and/or some sort of currency. Reputations are capped which means that if you skip a day or two, you will reach the finish line anyway, just few days later (becouse there is a finish line, unlike in GW2 AP). And currency is also capped since eventually there is nothing more you can buy for it and it becomes useless. And as for achievements there, all AP in game are permanent and if there is some very rare time-exclusive one, it always gives 0 AP. The same applies to all (with one obvious exception) MMO-s with AP system I have ever played. GW2 is the only one where not only you have temporary achievements, but you are in fact flooded with them (daily, monthly, living story).

Subdue.5479:

Sorry, I’ll take your arguments more clearly when you can come up with a reason other than “I don’t want people who are willing to do the additional achievements to be able to move ahead of those who aren’t.” Because right now, that’s all it is. It’s not that you believe all completionists don’t want the option to be there.

So far I did not seen a single declared completionist in this thread who would claim that he likes where the system is heading. Only people who are ridiculing our concerns are alleged PvP masters who claim that they dont care about AP (so why even bother with this thread?) and that AP hunters are just QQ-ing becouse they lack PvP skills and endurance.

Subdue.5479:

If for some reason you can’t cope with not grabbing every single daily every single day, and the new PvP dailies are as traumatic to your enjoyment of the game as you claim, that’s a personal problem, not a problem with the game.

That is true. But by extension we can tell the same about pretty much any grievances people have towards this game.

Only zerker gear valid?
Its not a problem with a game. Its your personal problem that you dont like it.
Ascended grind bad?
Its not a problem with a game. Its your personal problem that you dont like it.
Hammer warrior OP?
Its not a problem with a game. Its your personal problem that you dont like it.
WvW is just zerg?
Its not a problem with a game. Its your personal problem that you dont like it.

And so on. The purpose of the forum is to provide feedback. There will always be people who like X and people who dislike X.

Subdue.5479:

The thing is, the daily system was never designed for people to be striving to complete every single possible daily every single day. That you completionists have decided they want to do that is entirely you.

Are you a game designer from Arena? If no, how can you know with what purpose AP system in GW2 was designed? All we can do is judge how it works based on the implemented version. And AP system in September 2012 was much different from the one we have today. So what it is the design goal? I will take an answer from someone with the Arena tag next to his name. Not from someone who just claims facts basing on own prejudices.

SpelignErrir.4263:

They aren’t mad that there’s “no skill” involved – they’re mad that there IS skill involved, skill which they do not possess.

This entire thread is nothing but “I’m pvp illiterate, but I want to win, kitten it!”

I cant take seriously anyone who claims that it takes skill to do dailies in GW2. And I think I know something about it as I didnt missed a single daily up until few days ago when I decided to quit. And no, new sPvP daily does not need skill as well. The better PvP gamer you are, the better players you will face and your win ratio will always drift towards 50% in the long run. But of course you have to berate people around with notoriously classic style of “lol you have no skill, learn to play noob”. And I dare to say that most of the people from top of the AP leaderboards have more GW2 skill than you. Simply becouse they play a lot and experience always translates to skill gain to some degree. Unless you have something to show to prove otherwise.

TLDR: You dont have much clue about what is the purpose of this thread. You just assume that it is about “QQ, I dont know how to win games in PvP”. Well, you are wrong.

Subdue.5479:

The best thing ANet could do to make the leaderboard actually worth working towards is to make it so that there are so many options available for daily completions that no one could possibly do every single option every single day. Then the leaderboard would be about who worked through it faster, more efficiently, and more devotedly.

Then some poor soul would try to game it and play 18 hours per day doing dailies. He would be at the top. And perhaps dead few years later (remember the headlines about gamers playing for 40 hours and ending up dead). WoW tried to focus on doing hours of dailies at the start of current expansion. They later admitted it was a design mistake since it burned several people out. I am sure there is someone out there willing to grind dailies in GW2 for 10h each day. But that is not me and if GW2 is heading into this direction it is no longer my “one and only beloved game”. Simple as that.

Subdue.5479:

I only made it through the first page of this thread and already I’m disgusted by the attitudes of the so-called “completionists.” What is the point of a leaderboard if progression is limited not by what the competitors are willing and able to do, but by what is available for them to do?

If anything, you “completionists” should be clamoring for more dailies, not less. You should be arguing for achievements to be harder, not easier. You should want the leaderboard to actually be a competition, where someone who is more hardcore, more willing to put forth the effort and devote the time, can move ahead of someone who simply is not.

I doubt the new achievements were added with you “completionists” in mind, but it’s exactly the sort of thing you needed.

Read my post above yours. And if it will make you feel better and less “disgusted” I shall make a confession. Yes, the system beat me. I am weak. I am not willing to spend 6 hours+ every single day of the year doing dailies in GW2. I loose. I quit. GG.

Ludus Rex.1562:

One of two things can happen: Either A) people continue to invest only a reasonable amount of time in dailies, in which case the standings don’t change and your relative position as an achiever is still top notch and well respected, or B ) people sink in more time achieving than others and move to the front of the pack, which is where they deserve to be since they’re the ones grinding it out and investing the time. They’re better completionists than you.

I bolded the part to which I am referring to. Yes, that is exactly the problem. If Arena makes the system in which the goal for completionists is to spend 6 hours every day just doing dailies (try it out for a while, I am sure you will find it fun) then that is not the game I want to play. There is a reason I dont play one of the korean grinder MMO. There is a reason I dont play WoW (I dont like endless gear threadmill). I was enjoying GW2 becouse it allowed me to be a completionist without forfeiting my entire life. If Arena decides to change that initial model, there is a moment when my back will simply snap. And that just happened.

I dont necessarily want to rage at Arena over it. I am merely reporting an issue (together with other players of similar mindset) that the system reached the point where it “defeated” me by depleting my endurance. I am speaking for myself as are everyone else. Whatever Arena will decide to do with that feedback, it is up to them.

And as for the new people catching up. Long time ago already I was advertising a change that would do just that and at the same time fix the problem of current AP hunters. Just cap the total daily AP points you can accumulate on your account. Same as with some repeatable achievements. So for example once you hit 10,000 or 20,000 AP from dailies you will not get any more. This would allow new players to reach and surpass people playing since day one. And at the same time eliminate the everyday pressure problem. It would also still encourage prolonged play (it is what Arena aims at) becouse getting such high amount of daily AP would require a lot of time regardless (I estimate 5000 – 10000 hours of gameplay). Make what you will out of it.

Flytrap.8075:

These new sPvP dailies were added in so that people who ONLY play sPvP can still complete their daily achievement without leaving Heart of the Mists. The win-factor ensures that people aren’t just AFKing for easy points and that they’re actually working for them. I’m sorry that you and your fellow “AP Hunters” think it takes too much time out of your day to complete these, but no one but yourself is making you take on these extra dailies.

No. These new sPvP dailies were added to shoehorn more people into solo queue and team queue. Perhaps it will be successful at that and perhaps it is good for the game. Time will tell. But please be honest and dont try to convince anyone that they were added for pure PvP players convenience. Making old 4 dailies is still faster and easier for any type of player. By the time you get 3 team wins or 5 solo wins you will already do the 4 old ones and thus get your laurel. And since pure PvP players dont care about AP amount (not to mention they will be far behind pure PvE players anyway) the only logical reason of this new implementation is the one I mentioned at the start of this post.

danielrjones.8759:

However I do not see how some comments on various threads cannot be viewed as direct threats of “change it to what I want or I’m leaving” imo most businesses, would be happy to see people who exhibit such childish behavior leave. For me threats of any kind have an immediate and opposite reaction.

While this is slightly OT and I agree that trying to extort something from developers is not a way to go, I have to say that there is a known precedence where it worked. Back in summer 2011 there was a new patch/expansion to EVE Online which kind of focused on different goals which most players found to be key for the game. People started to riot in game. Several accounts were unsubscribed. As a result some weeks/months later developer of the game released an apology letter from the CEO. Further development of mechanics introduced in the questionable patch was abandoned. It was a clear case where aggresive standpoint of players (at least large amount of such players) was effective into bringing the developer to submission. That being said, I dont think AP hunters are a large group of players. We are a minority so I find it plausible that Arena simply will not care (or care but decide that acting is not worth it).

SpelignErrir.4263:

If you guys are having trouble with solo queue, such as 12 losses for 5 wins, then the queue isn’t the problem. It’s you.

Mathematically, you have a huge advantage over the other team if you’re any good. You’re assured one player who won’t quit and will play well. The other team has 5 potential slots for pvp illiterate droolers. Yours only has 4.

You could get a bad luck streak and lose 3ish in a row. But with a sample size of 17 rounds, if you lose 12 and only win 5, then YOU are the constant in failure. Stop blaming your team and learn to accept that you are the problem.

I used to be like you. I blamed my team for sucking when I was the one sucking. The solution? I learned to stop blaming others for my own shortcomings. I stopped making excuses for myself. I stopped sucking. I learned to play.

Maybe doing this will help you guys out.

That doesnt fix it. Assuming math fair 50% win ratio, that is 16 games per day to get 8 wins. Count 15 minutes per match (including wait times) and thats average of 4 hours of daily work added to what we already had.

danielrjones.8759:

@Malediktus, I agree in part. I would like to think anet doesn’t want to lose their customers. just my opinion, but when someone threatens me, it has an opposite reaction. I don’t always agree with changes anet makes to the game. I feel they believe the changes they make are to better the game for the entire community not a select group. If anet bowed to threats they would ceased to exist.
There are ways to get ones point across through constructive comments. Supplying a solution that is beneficial to all, not just those who are hardcore. stomping feet, holding breath, slamming doors, and threatening to run away. Is why there are so many negative comments on this thread.

I dont think “threaten” is a good term to use. At least not in my case. There can be many reasons why someone could quit the game. Someone will quit if his class gets nerfed in PvP or PvE. Someone will quit becouse he believes there is “nothing to do” in game. It differs from person to person. If my class would get nerfed hard in PvP in GW2 I would simply reroll another class and learn to play it better. Someone else would quit. Both options are OK tbh.

In case of AP hunting. I made a commitment to do them all back in the days when completing daily in 100% required 15 minutes of game time or it would simply complete by itself if I would just play GW2 for few hours. Then Arena started to add more and more. I began to see the problem and I started to voice my concerns on forums in several cases where I could make a remark about it. There were some bursts of more hard to complete time-gated living story achievements like Mai Trin ones or Liadri ones. But I was convincing myself that those are just bursts and after a while there will be some breathing room to get. However the change on recent patch with sPvP daily was a straw which broke a camel’s back (quite a heavy straw tbh). At that point I merely asked Arena if that is a design pattern they intend to follow. If Arena would say that it is, I would understand that. I understand that it is impossible to cater to all playstyles and all gamers. If Arena believes that adding those sPvP dailies in such form will bring more good to the game than harm (few nerd AP hunters quiting but more cannon fodder for PvP players for example) then OK, so shall be it. But that is a game I dont want to play. And so I am going to quit. What is wrong with that? This is not me trying to blackmail Arena. Its just me asking “hey Arena, are you going to serve me apples or oranges? Becouse I prefer apples and if you will serve oranges I will just go to the other restaurant over there which serves apples. Thanks!”.

That being said. I interpret the lack of Arena response as saying “Yes. All is working as intended.”. And so I decided to quit. I stopped doing dailies 2 days ago. I ordered 4 new games on Amazon. I started to play some Heartstone and Diablo III again (I once left D3 “for good” becouse of AH but since Blizzard surpised me in a positive way and decided to remove AH, I am going to give that game another chance). I will find ways to entertain myself. And I wish good luck to Arena with GW2. It is still a fantastic game but with extremely bad AP system (a system which IMO was very good at game’s launch). I much more prefer AP system from Blizzard games. They dont have daily AP and no temporary achievements at all, if some achievement is no longer obtainable, it looses its AP value and gets moved to a legacy category. Someone who designed it had some reason for it. And whatever that reason was, it perfectly tunes with my AP hunting playstyle and is in direct opposite to what Arena is trying to do (which is acting on people’s OCD to “force” them to log every single day for few hours). So I am kind of done. The only thing that Arena could possibly do now to make me play GW2 hardcore again, would be to introduce a global cap on daily/monthly AP (like for example you dont get more AP from daily after you reach 10,000 AP from daily). Otherwise I am going to pass. I am not a terrorist. I am just a sane customer who picks a service which serves his playstyle the best. The fact that Arena will no longer gain any money from me is not that important tbh. If they gain more money from people who are happy with change that made me quit, well, too bad for me, c’est la vie.

JackyCorus.6915:

Pve Farmers will always get Bad groups cause they’re unranked. So Play More pvp or stop complaining

I am fairly certain I played more PvP in this game than most of “PvP only” active players. Pretty much since day 1 almost every day. Except my carrot was some of the AP (permanent and daily). But to reach that carrot I also tried to perfect myself in PvP as much as possible. If I commit myself to a match I want to win it at all costs and not just farm. From experience I am 100% certain that I always was far more serious about effort in PvP than a vast majority of gamers. I may not be the most skilled pro player around but I play as best as my personal skill allows me to. By saying that I am just a stupid PvE farmer you are insulting me and any other completionist player out there who give their full effort while in a PvP environment. Play more PvP? Asking me to play 4-6h of tPvP only every single day is a straw that breaks a camels back. I will be leaving GW2 most likely. Becouse I have a job, a family, a workout plan (I want to complete a marathon within 4h and I am training for this purpose almost every day, look at it as a sort of achievement to unlock – this is what we completionist players/people do) and some remnants of sane mind which tells me that new sPvP achievements are way out of line.

JackyCorus.6915:

FINALLY there is a difficult area in Daily pvp! This will FINALLY add a matter of skull to The leaderboards. There wont be unskillt Farmers in The top 50 in a GEW days. Really Looking forward to it!!! Thx Anet))

I dont want to be rude but do you even know what do you talk about? “Skilled”? How is devoting 5 hours each day any indication of skill? At least be be fair and say “FINALLY there is a grindy area in Daily pvp!”.

ahuba.6430:

You ap farmers need to realize something. The Achievement points don’t belong to you, YOU made it YOUR obsession! Since achievement points now award skins, it’s no longer only interesting for people who farm it, there’s a reason for other people to get to 3k or 6k achievements, and among those people are the regular pvpers that deserver the skins just as much as you and for whom these new dailies are easy to complete and come naturally. Achievement points DO NOT belong to you.

I want to hear that from Arena (who is behind the design philosophy of this game). If they will confirm this, I will politely say goodbye, wish them good luck and leave to try something else. If that will make you happy, even better. They already tried to ramp up the daily PvP several months ago and then retracted this change due to feedback. What made them to bring this “boost” again and even in more harsh form? All I am asking for is a couple of sentences from Arena to confirm the intention.

PS. You said that their intention was to reward PvP-only players. My guess is, their intention is to shoehorn more players into solo and team queues. Who is right and who is wrong?

Cush.4063:

No, you guys really don’t get it. I understand that that’s what makes this game fun to you. People do have their own ways of having fun. So I get you on that point. The point I’m talking about is that you don’t have to flame the devs and rage quit and go all chaotic over it. These posts are what make the forums not that great to be in. All I am encouraging is a respectful but forceful post. I apologize for saying the things I did about being childish and such, it’s just that these are the only forums I delve into on this site, the “pvp forums”. And after spending so much time in them and all I see is post after post about how the devs suck, the game is bad, I’m quitting, etc. it just dampens the game and the forums. This is just the thread I chose to take it out on and so I apologize for being disrespectful myself. I just feel that things would go a lot less ignored with no posts from the devs if it wasn’t a flame fest. I feel the devs respond more in threads where there is a problem and they can respond without being attacked or the feeling of being attacked as well as it makes the forums a more enjoyable place to be. Anyways, that’s my 2 cents.

Cush

Where did I say that the devs “suck”? In fact I was trying to be respectful towards devs in the post where I was talking about quiting. Read it again. And yes, this thing is something that might make me quit. Different people quit over different things. I am not qutting becouse I didnt got a silver pony. I might quit becouse the recent change hits my playstyle in place where it hurts the most. There are very few things that could make me quit GW2 in its current state. Very few. This is one of those things.

Oraith.1732:

I hope that the AP hunters that are willing to do more content will rise to the top due to the amount of QQ, because they deserve it.

Sure. If someone is willing to spend 6 hours each day just doing dailies he by all means deserves to be at the top. Sky is the limit. This is however not something I am willing to do. If this is what Arena intends than I will accept it with a heavy heart and just leave. I promise I wont post any “QQ” after I do so. I am just among those who are raising an issue and asking for acknowledgement (becouse so far Arena didnt took any firm stance in feedback response regarding this subject)

I would really appreciate if someone from Arena could drop a few words regarding this. If this design will stay in permanently? Are you happy with how it works? What was your design goal and/or intention? If you could confirm this now, it would save me a month or so of playing something that I am bound to quit anyway. Becouse if nothing will be said about it until next release I will just assume its going to stay like this and I will quit anyway. For sure I am not going to buy any gems until I know how this will end up so its not like there is something to gain for Arena.

Look, I know this is your game. You can do whatever you want with it. Its fine. I would just be really greateful if you could acknowledge something that breaks the game for me and few other completionists (as apparent from several threads about AP dailies overall). If you believe that your design is for the greater good and players like me are an acceptable collateral then fine. I will accept that and try to move on. I just really think that I deserve at least some form of answer after all the fanatic support I gave to Arena and GW over the years.

I would also appreciate if people could refrain from throwing aggresive remarks about how stupid/pathetic/whatever my playstyle is. There are many playstyles out there. And this one is mine. I dont judge others.

Ewon.5903:

Careful Awe, people are not going to understand our type of play style. Unfortunately it has become clear that Anet is included with them.

I know Ewon. I think it has been discussed with depth in the last thread and several other before that. People who claim that we are minority are correct. But this does not change the fact that “completionism” is a playstyle that some of us like you and me follow. I will not allow some video game, even as good as GW2, to destroy my daily (pun not intended) life. Current daily system (before this patch) was already close to limit I could tolerate. New change pushes it far beyond this treshold.

Adminir.8140:

This is beyond ridiculous. I am utterly speechless. My complete excitement for everything this patch has to offer went out the window the moment I opened my achievements tab.

For me its kind of official. After spending over 1 year playing GW2 and collecting AP as this is my playstyle in any game I play (to the kitten with the leaderboards). If this change is not going to be retracted in some way until next patch, I am leaving GW2 for good and going to pick some other MMO for regular play (deciding which might be a hard part). I will not spend 6 hours every day just doing dailies here. Not a chance. Or I will end up insane. This will need a radical detox treatment to work. Uninstall and never look back. I did it once with Star Wars Galaxies to which I became addicted too much (was playing like 8h per day at some point). Was hard for few weeks but it worked out. Yes, I know you dont care. And I dont care that you dont care. At least one slot on leaderboards will open up for people who care about it. So at least someone will end up happy, right? Right?

Ewon.5903:

Awe.1096:

Ewon.5903:

Wait wait wait, are you serious that it is 5solo and 3team wins?

Didn’t they try the wins in team arenas before and it did not go over very well?

I am dead serious. Separate achievements for solo and team arena.

They said there would be 4 additional AP given out. Are these each worth 2 AP or are there other achievements to go with them?

Win 3 solo. Get 1 point. Another achievement unlocks to win 2 more solo. Get another point.
Win 2 team. Get 1 point. Another achievement unlocks to win 1 more team. Get another point.

Ewon.5903:

Wait wait wait, are you serious that it is 5solo and 3team wins?

Didn’t they try the wins in team arenas before and it did not go over very well?

I am dead serious. Separate achievements for solo and team arena.

The worst possible scenario. Daily five solo queue wins and three team queue wins. 8 wins total. Considering queue and prep times, the nature of matches and the fact that winning team arenas is painful if you dont have a squad playing on the accord every single day, I roughly estimate that doing those wins can take even 3-4 hours of time if you have bad luck with team rolls.

Kill shot is probably the easiest dodgeable skill in game. Makes the damage somehow justified. I still believe warriors are OP but kill shot is not one of the reasons.

Is there even any point in such high infusions atm? Its a gimmicky gold sink atm, nothing more. We can start picking up pitchforks once we will need ascended gear decked with +15 infusions to progress to fractal level cap.