Guild Wars 2

DevisedDemise.2608:

those are pretty dope changes. though i will admit i am disappointed evasive empowerment the one that gave a 10% damage boost went to bounding dodger, cuz during the beta i got a really nice combo going with dash giving me some distance and then vaulting towards what i dashed from after gaining evasive empowerment. it felt just right, but i don’t think bounding dodger will give the same feeling that i got from that combo, but I’ll wait and see once HoT launches i just hope it still feels as good.

bound is more about sticking to close quarters dealing damage, so getting a damage bonus after dodging fits it more than the escape skill dodge.

IDICERI.4268:

After BWE 3 I feel the following changes will help the Daredevil greatly:

1. Vault – I feel the evade frames that was being contemplated from BWE 2 will help(damage mitigation). Also can’t seem to shadow-step(using steal) mid animation, but able to do that when using bound dodge. Is this intended or am I doing something wrong?

2. Driven Fortitude – Removing the 1 second cool down will eliminate any sustain issues the Daredevil has in game. It will complement good thieves that evade attacks and waste the endurance of bad thieves that spam dodge. Staff really needs this because you no longer have much stealth to mitigate the damage and dodges only prolong a fight. Eventually you need to attack and with the low health pool the thief has, they get shreked in the exchange of damage. Removing the cool-down of this trait will provide the much needed sustain for a stealth-less fighter that thieves have been looking for.

Waiting for the fixes for the dodge animations to further comment on the GM traits.

bound dodge isn’t ground targeted, vault being GT while also moving the thief is probably why it’s impossible to do it.

Nex Vestrum.1025:

BrunoBRS.5178:

you do realize that it’s a purely superficial difference, right? you’ll still have to pick the traits. you’ll always end up with a special dodge, all of which are incredibly strong as of now.

plus, all our trait options are really strong. making them and the dodges weaker to give room for 3 GM traits would kitten the spec more than help it.

I disagree, the idea behind elite specs was you slot it and instantly get access to a new mechanic. Mes is going “I can go back in time”, Warr is going “Look at me go berserk!”, etc. Meanwhile Thief goes “I can dodge one more time…”.

It doesn’t FEEL like an elite spec as it is now. It feels like a nice new base spec line with some good GM traits. All the other classes I played felt really fresh, DD, not so much.

And yes, the dodges are strong, if the situation you’re in calls for the one that you happen to have slotted. In a teamfight I want Dash for the dmg reduction and disengage, but in a 1v1 I don’t want or need that, I would rather have Bounding Dodger for the extra pressure. Using BD in a teamfight is just going to leap you to your death, Dash in a 1v1 almost resets the fight since it is such a strong disengage. I always like thief because it is such a flexible class and I expected that to be maintained in the elite spec.

but all the GM traits change the mechanics. it’s the same thing. you will never play a daredevil that doesn’t have a special dodge. it’s not like you can opt out of the special dodges. if anything, we get to choose between 3 unique mechanics, whereas everyone else has one.

moriz.5473:

though i definitely agree that Weakening Strikes needs a buff, i don’t particularly like the proposed changes. “receive less damage from weakened foes” is kinda redundant, since weakened foes already deal very little damage. and, inflicting a damaging condition like torment/bleeding only benefits condi specc’d players.

instead, how about:

• you deal X% more damage to weakened foes, and your conditions last 50% longer (maximum 1 second) against weakened foes

or

• weakened foes within 360 range of you suffer 67% fumble and 67% slower endurance regeneration (instead of 50% for both).

it’s not redundant, it’s stacking defense on a profession that sorely needs more defense. if you’re more resilient against foes that have weakness, a condition that already tones down damage, then you’re very resilient. last thing daredevil needs is more damage modifiers

forum new page bug

Nex Vestrum.1025:

Okay, these changes are starting to make the dodges more appealing. I will still go back to what I have been saying about Daredevil for a while now, the 3 dodges need to be part of the baseline elite spec and swappable OOC (or even in).

All other elite specs, when selected with no traits actually selected, get access to their special mechanic. Daredevil however is simply given +50 endurance if no traits are selected. It feels like Daredevil is getting the short end of the stick, having to use GM traits to unlock the unique mechanic, and being stuck using one even though the different choices work best in different scenarios that you may come across within 30 seconds of each other.

TLDR; Good start, but please listen to all the people saying it feels unfair to have to use our GM trait to get our elite spec mechanic.

you do realize that it’s a purely superficial difference, right? you’ll still have to pick the traits. you’ll always end up with a special dodge, all of which are incredibly strong as of now.

plus, all our trait options are really strong. making them and the dodges weaker to give room for 3 GM traits would kitten the spec more than help it.

Christonya.3856:

Smoke. If it doesn’t get smoke, it won’t be usable for cleave / trash situations in fractals / raids. If it doesn’t get smoke, we’ll still be forced into s/d.

OH and smoke gives us a way to gain stealth (from bounding) gives us blinding whirls, and of course, lets us set up for a stealth attack, to set up burst.

then you’d just be turning staff into another D/P. if you want pulsing blinds and leaping through your own smoke fields to set up stealth bursts, there’s already a build that does that. it’s been meta for well over a year.

elite specs are about bringing new playstyles, not reinforcing old ones with a new look.

i’m really, really happy with these changes. i don’t think anyone will complain that we don’t have “real” GM traits now.

regarding weakening strikes, at first i thought it would be interesting to just apply another condition as well, because i feel DD could have at least one more condi trait, but on second thought, reducing damage taken from weakened foes really helps solidify DD’s position as a bruiser, someone that can actually stay in fights rather than jump in and back out. plus, it synergizes with almost every build in the game (sword has weakness application, deadly arts has weakness on poison).

channeled vigor is in an excellent position now, i’ll definitely be running it. fist flurry’s faster cast time is what the skill needed, but only with some testing we’ll be able to say if it’s fast enough now.

even with fixed range, i think vault doesn’t go far enough. i’d honestly trade a third of its damage for some evasion frames during the leap, and 900 range. vault could be the thief’s mobility and disengage skill, if only it had more range. it could finally give us something other than shortbow.

changes i was hoping to see but didn’t:

• swapping driven fortitude and escapist’s absolution around (DF is a strong contender in itself, i’d argue with a slight buff it would be on par with the other two traits, but EA is just mandatory for any competitive scenario, meaning no one takes the other traits because they just can’t give up EA’s cleanse)

• debilitating arc having better start-up evasion and having a better effect. a day or two ago i thought daze instead of cripple would be really cool, and fit with the theme of the skill and the kit as a whole (and it provides synergy with impacting disruption, which people would take for interrupt builds if only they could give up EA). even if the daze is single target, i’d take it over AoE cripple.

• dust strike becoming a circular AoE around the thief. now i don’t agree with the people asking for a field on it, because a smoke field would invalidate black powder, and a dark field just doesn’t make sense when it’s a skill about throwing dust (aka smoke) around. i think a large radius AoE blind, even without pulsing, would be strong enough to justify the skill.

• the vault things i mentioned above.

honestly, i’m really happy with the shape daredevil is taking. as you can guess, my only true woe is that the staff seems like a poor man’s S/P right now.

Jesse.4631:

Besides making Bandits Defense 2seconds long could we by any chance make it where its a option if you want to use the knock back or not? Theres times where i just want the block not to be flinged back toward my opponent who might be bursting me

i’d like a toggle as well, or at the very least, give the kick full evasion. it’s a really long leap that you don’t always want, and it can throw you right back in the enemy line when you’re desperately trying to break the stun so you can run away.

ok, this is probably my last post for this beta, i’ll probably hold out until the dev replies on new changes start rolling out. i’ll try to keep it short.

• i like the daredevil. i really do. it’s a neat idea and one worth insisting on.

• when the devs finish reading this thread and sit down for a meeting to discuss what to improve on DD, i want them to ask themselves this: what does staff do that other thief sets don’t do better? i don’t mean “i want staff to be the best option”, i mean “i want staff to have a specific area where it’s better than the other sets, just like those sets fill their respective niches”.

• similarly, i want the devs to look at the whole thief profession, and ask “what can thief bring to a group (be it PvP, raids, or WvW) that other professions can’t do just as well, if not better? what is our role in the three endgame modes to keep us viable?”

• don’t forget the core thief just because the elite spec is just around the corner. namely, the current state of the acrobatics line being underwhelming, and the salt to the wound that the daredevil line introduces (it being very reminisscent of the old acrobatics line, and encouraging the same evade-heavy playstyle).

these are the four points that i really, really want the devs to take to heart when discussing the future of daredevil and thief as a whole. more specific feedback can be read through this and many other threads.

maybe it does the same thing that happens when two revenants use unrelenting assault on each other.

well, one of their traps is bugged right now and it hits really, really hard, three times (that’s the bugged part). best part? it triggers on CC with the right adept trait. guess who has a shadowstep that also CCs?

translation: don’t use steal on dragonhunters if you have sleight of hand equipped.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCFmiVmCmOBkmildCbLAUbaTdvlZwca+A+ArgA-TZBFABC8AAsZ/BxLDswRAAgLBAA

this is what i’ve been running in stronghold. it’s really, really good at hitting really hard, and you don’t even notice the lack of initiative from skipping out trickery.

• fist flurry is purely optional, i bring it ‘cause it’s free CC on static enemies.
• i run pain response instead of vigorous recovery for extra anti-condi safety, and despite running 4 physicals, i pick evasive empowerment ‘cause it’s an immense DPS gain.
• you can swap the amulet for something more tanky (valk, cavalier) if you feel like, but i found i really missed having permanent 75% crit chance with ridiculous ferocity thanks to practiced tolerance.
• the heal is not the safest thing in the world right now, but i found that it’s a really strong heal at a good cooldown, and more importantly, it gives me 75 endurance back, or it’ll just heal me even more if i had spare endurance.

downsides of this build:

• same staff woes as always: little to no defense of itself, mobility relegated to shortbow, not a lot of sticking power.

• incredibly selfish. not having shadow refuge, or just SA in general, means you won’t have any sort of group support.

• glassy as f***. even if you opt for the more defensive amulets, the thief is still very vulnerable without using its active defenses, and active defenses are few in the staff (as previously mentioned). to see how much this hurts a build, just look at P/P without bound for free stealths. the only reason people are talking about P/P builds now is because, with the help of bound, P/P can finally have a reliable way to bail from fights, or at least reposition. “oh, but why don’t you just take dash instead?” well, hypothetical reader, then what’s the point of bound and evasive empowerment? are those two traits just not meant to be used with staff, since staff needs that survivability? isn’t it more likely that the problem is in the weapon itself pigeonholing you into a single option?

Bllade.1029:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Tabootrinket.2631:

Another tiny personal note :

For imparing dagger :
The skill is great. It’s just that I feel it would look more dynamic if the trajectory of the daggers was straight like the pistols and they just disappear when they reached the range limit.
I personally think that it makes the daggers look weak when their trajectory is an arc.

(It’s not important I know, but I wanted to share my view on this point)

i actually kinda like how they go in a straight line until the edge of the range, and then fall off. so long as it doesn’t affect gameplay.

Daredevil gameplay should revolve around speed; everything should be fast. Those daggers included, if they had a projectile speed increase they’d be in a great spot.

but are they slow? i rarely ever miss them, and for something so strong on such a low cooldown, i think having pistol-speed would be just wrong.

what? noooooo, the weakness is awesome. it’s like indirect prot.

TBH, i don’t like most of your suggestions >.>

Cameron.6215:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

I was thinking reflect and block are different?
But that is probably the reason for it. Just weird that is the game’s logic.

Yeah they’re treated the same, we all learn that out the hard way

wait WHAT.

…unblockable effects just got a lot more interesting to me >.>

Ocmito.7069:

So this is my bit of feedback:
Overall: Dash and Impaling Lotus feel really good. Bound still feels kinda weird, I’d personally prefer it did damage at the beggining instead at the end. Staff still lacks utility, almoust never used skill 3 and 4.

Weakining Charge: still feels somewhat clunky. I’d be glad if pre-cast and after-cast was removed or at least reduced.

Debilitating Arc: As some people mantioned before, It could be a gap closer instead of escape.

Dust Strike: I feel like this needs to be a field to be relevant. It would bring a lot of synergy between all the staff skills, beacuse right now there is almoust none.

Vault: Its in a good spot for me although the range seems to be bugged.

Channeled Vigor: I found it really nice in pve because of the big heal. Cast time is too long for pvp.

Bandit’s Defence: This skill is fine. Nothing really to add.

Distracting Daggers: I feel like it should have some another benefit to it. Maybe a boon strip or something like that.

Impairing Daggers: I really like this skill. It looks nice and it overall seems pretty strong.

Fist Flurry: This is still doesnt do enough damage. It’s hard to land and it’s not rewarding enough. Palm Strike: I’d love it to be a knockback instead of stun.

Impact Strike: This one is cool and fairly balanced.

As for traits:
Evasive Empowerment: This one is a lot better now.
Weakening Strikes: This is okay.
Brawler’s Tenacity: The endurence gain is too low.
Driven Fortitude: I think it would be a lot better as more of a spike heal with longer ICD.
Staff Master: This is fine.
Escapist Absolution: Really good trait.
Impacting Disruption: Pulmonary Impact should either do more damage or be able to crit.

I’d also like to thank Karl and the whole team for the work you’ve all done. Daredevil is my favorite elite spec both thematicly and mechanicly, it just needs some more love, thats all. Cheers.

really nice feedback, even if i don’t agree with all of it. i definitely agree that weakening charge could have less of a precast (aftercast is fine), and yeah, vault is most definitely bugged right now (less range and smaller AoE than indicated, which doesn’t help the already short range of the skill). dust strike being a field is one consistent feedback i’ve seen that i disagree with, ‘cause it would be too similar to pistol 5 (even better than it, actually, since it would have a larger radius). i’d much rather have it be a circular AoE, so that when you’re in the middle of a teamfight, you use it as a clutch blind. debilitating arc, i don’t think i’d want it to be our gap closer. maybe if the evasion started earlier in the attack and leapt you further back, and instead of cripple it dazed (zomg synergy with the interrupt trait).

as for fist flurry, yeah, a knockback would actually be really cool, and yeah, it’s a bit too hard to land and has little utility to it. i still run it because CC is important in stronghold and it’s a PvP game mode where people WILL stay still to get hit to the face depending on the situation :P

Tabootrinket.2631:

Another tiny personal note :

For imparing dagger :
The skill is great. It’s just that I feel it would look more dynamic if the trajectory of the daggers was straight like the pistols and they just disappear when they reached the range limit.
I personally think that it makes the daggers look weak when their trajectory is an arc.

(It’s not important I know, but I wanted to share my view on this point)

i actually kinda like how they go in a straight line until the edge of the range, and then fall off. so long as it doesn’t affect gameplay.

i actually really, really like the daredevil on paper. the problem is it’s struggling to get there, and instead it’s just a bursty thief by any other name right now. even with its shortcomings (mostly tied to staff’s identity crisis, really, and acro not being as good of a complementary line as you’d think), it’s still a blast to play one, and i’m far happier with it than any “sniper ninja” spec people were begging for.

question is, can the devs get the daredevil “right” in time?

babazhook.6805:

The reflect is nice. Would be nice to have it kick in for one of those new Rifle shots that are bugged off the warrior. It is a short duration though so in general terms it more by accident one gets a reflect off.

wait… what if… what if we moved the reflect to debilitating arc? :O

one thing i forgot to mention on my feedback on DD staff: it’s an incredibly selfish spec. we’re sacrificing a lot of our usual group support (read: stealth to save downed allies, increased revive speed) to use it.

now admitedly, i have no idea how you’d add group support to the current situation, short of some blast finishers on the two skills that already look like blasts (bound and vault) and making dust strike more reliable blind application. i’m not sure if that’s the best solution, but i think there needs to be some way for evade thief to have group support options just like condi thief and stealth thief do. maybe redo some acrobatics traits to be like that.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Would you say this ability is fair?

Knowing that any any minute a thief can stomp me and i have absolutely zero ways of countering/fighting against it, really infuriates me.

a thief is sacrificing their elite slot for it, and the combo can be interrupted at any moment through evasion, stability, aegis, blind, or interrupts.

i think it’s a high risk, high reward skill. it’s pretty hard to pull it off perfectly, but inrcedibly satisfying to do so.

so i was hell bent on first, making staff DD work on PvP, and second, to make it work without trickery.

i got close.

main faults of DD:

• absolutely zero survivability brought by the staff. debilitating arc is just not enough (bad evade time and distance, bad timing), and vault doesn’t cover nearly enough ground to work as a disengage. dust strike is just not a good skill so long as it stays a forward cone.

• tried running various different ways of getting rid of condi instead of expeditious dodger. NOPE. the acro condi removal traits are really bad, and don’t make up for expeditious dodger.

• fist flurry seems pretty obviously targetted at PvE, because it’s really clunky to land it without a solid setup beforehand, and anything from blinds (which are pretty much everywhere thanks to burn guards, eles, and now reapers) to blocks to being outrun can break it.

• all my attempts involved slotting acro, and it really highlighted how weak that line’s become since the june patch. even with feline grace + vigor on heal, it’s just not pumping endurance fast enough to warrant a trait line, and it doesn’t really provide anything other than that.

• i’ll say though, it did some good damage, both with critical strikes + rage runes or deadly arts + pack runes. it’s just that for something that was sold as a more sustain/teamfight-oriented build, you can’t even handle a 1v2 before you melt, since everyone else has comparable damage while also having some sort of defense that doesn’t rely on filling the whole utility bar with defensive skills. i’m pretty hesitant to call my problem L2P issues, as i fare way better with other thief builds.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

A thought occurs to me.

IF: Chronomancers are going to be meta…
THEN: Alacrity needs to affect initiative gain.

I’m not sure if anyone has tested this yet, but it needs to be the case. The optimal PVE group will always contain a chronomancer for quickness and alacrity. For alacrity to be fair, it needs to affect Initiative.

if alacrity affects ini gain, then so should chill… we can’t ask for one thing without also getting the tradeoff effect.

Kill.3458:

Anyway arent Elite Spec’s not exclusively tied to HoT anyway?

nope. both elite specs and the revenant are HoT exclusive.

Rudy.6184:

As for the traits I would still argue about swapping driven fortitude with escapist absolution – this ttrait is the only choice without shadow arts

starting to think the same. it’s just unthinkable to not run condi cleanse, and daredevil isn’t meant to be running SA, so it can’t get the cleanse from there (and there, it’s ok for the cleanse to be a major trait because the other two traits suck, but on DD, the other traits are actually cool and useful, just not enough to warrant skipping condi cleanse). plus, driven fortitude is still a really solid trait that would warrant picking over the other two in some situations (i.e. S/P healing builds)

Daendur.2357:

it’s less hilarious when you are out of reflect or you don’t see the war

ps. “berserker meta is over” …. -.-

that quote is about instanced PvE, not PvP. and i find it funny that people are complaining about the more bursty meta, when for the past two years, you couldn’t go into the PvP forums without seeing someone longing for the burst meta from launch.

Daendur.2357:

This is more a question than a feedback, but i think it is important: why a group should take a thief?
I mean, our damage is good, but not much better than any other, we provide little to no boons/condi remove to our allies, we cannot follow a melee train since we are too squishy, we don’t have great CCs. We have stealth, which is more important for us, due to our stealth attacks/traits, than for others. So, again, why?
Daredevil doesn’t add anything.
It is a selfish elite spec.

I feel like i’m not contributing like others to the fights, i would like thieves to have something unique and tactical to let them be a strong part of a setup, to be the steak, not the salad…

originally, thieves were really mobile, powerful duelists. strong in 1v1s, sustain through just not getting hit, ever, always on the right place at the right time.

as balance changes kept being pushed, other classes’ 1v1 abilities got better and better while the thief’s 1v1 abilities were at best the same, and at worst nerfed.

so as a result, the only advantage thieves have right now is that we can move a lot, and stealth downed allies for a safer rez/stomp prevention.

the daredevil doesn’t exactly bring anything new to the thief, as it’s not any better at fighting groups and sustaining drawn out fights (which i think is what it is meant to be) than a regular thief, and the signature weapon is actually worse at that than the current thief weapons. in fact, there’s nothing staff brings to the table that isn’t done better by another weapon set.

don’t get me wrong, i think the daredevil has great potential to be a more sustain-oriented thief, something other than “mega one-shot burst or run away”, a style that can handle 1vX pressure while staying on point. it just isn’t there yet, and making staff work is key for this. daredevil already allows condi thieves to be that much stronger in 1v1 scenarios (you’re probably better off with shadow arts for group situations, thanks to potent poison buff), and the traits (and most skills) are really good. but it needs something to convince me to not slap shadowstep, shadow refuge, and a shortbow to my loadout. until it does that, you’re probably better off with something else.

some quick new feedback:

• Vault’s AoE is actually about 10% smaller than what the ground target indicator shows (tested on golems to be sure).

• bandit’s defense will often end up killing you because instead of a flip over skill, it automatically leaps you like 400 units into the enemy team if it blocks anything. either take the leap off and keep the kick melee range, or give it a flip over skill on block instead.

Side note, I think it’s a bit of a shame that there isn’t much in the way of condi traits on the Daredevil trait line. I mean, it would’ve been fine if one of the grandmasters wasn’t begging for D/D condi thieves to pick it.

• The auto attack chain hits pretty hard now, I like it. That said, the reflect on the third attack is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. First, it’s unreliable because it’s the third attack in a chain, with like one second to reflect stuff once the attack starts. Second, it’s the third attack in a melee chain, which reflects projectiles. If I’m in melee range (a requirement for me to reach the attack with the reflect tooltip), my opponent is either swapping to melee, or moving out of melee range so they can range better. If my opponent is at range (where this tooltip would actually be desired), then I can’t hit my opponent in order to get to the third attack on the chain so I can actually reflect the projectiles.

• Weakening Charge feels really good now. Sometimes it goes the wrong direction if you’re being too spammy with it, but all the hits land and you always travel the full distance, while the hitbox feels considerably larger now.

• Debilitating Arc is still one of those skills that you just never press. I wonder if an initiative increase and making it a stunbreak would be too much? (probably, yeah). Either way, this skill needs something. Preferrably something that helps define staff as a unique playstyle.

• Dust Strike is one of those skills that I only ever use when I remember I have it, and only before I actually start fighting. once I leap in, its directional nature makes it pretty bad for a kit that’s meant to fight while surrounded. But at least the cast time feels right now.

• Vault, I still don’t like it being the damage skill. I’d much rather have some sort of competition for shortbow in the form of a long leap with evasion frames, rather than a “spammy spammy DPS” skill. It would give staff newfound mobility, and great engaging/disengaging power. I’d trade any DPS on this skill, and even get a higher ini cost again, for that.

Raven.9603:

Orpheal.8263:

Thinks I would change on D/D to make it more viable compared to the other Weapon Builds

Backstab: Now is 100% always a guaranteed Critical Hit, which gives the target on hit also 10 Stacks of Vulnerability, if the target had more than 50% health

That trait that gives 100% critical for stealth attacks gets baselined and replaced with a better more general useful trait for the thief, like somethign that increases the maximum range of shortbowes and pistols and lets their auto attacks bounce once or in case of trick shot bounce once more.

Auto Attack String: Increase the Attack Speed of the string and let the Double Strikes hit twice, so doubling their hits. Let Wild Strike Boon Steal instead of giving back a tiny bit of Endurance and rename it to “Thievery”

Twisting Fangs: needs a massive damage buff (like 150%+ therefore that you you fight only with 1 Dagger and should cost 1-2 Initiative lesser

Heartseeker: Reverting the Damage so that it deals more damage agaisnt targets with high health ancd becomes weaker against enemies with low health that are already nearly dead. Raise the range from 450 to 600 to make it a better gap closer and add an evade frame to it.

Death Blossom Increase the Evade Frame to its Full Duration, let it grant while that animation runs also Resistance and Stability for 1 second and give it a 100% damage buff and let it deal instead of 3 stacks of bleeding 3 different conditions 1 stack each.
1 Stack of Bleeding, 1 Stack of Torment and 1 Stack of Confusion so that this skill becomes much better of a Hybrid Skill for thieves going for both, direct and condition damage to make with this skill more pressure. 3 stacks of just only bleeding are way too easily removed, but by gettign from this skill 3 different conditions, its not so easy to clean them all away instantly so that its more likely that the conditions will deal over tiem some more damage, if you perform some quick death blossoms after another, confusing your enemy with your quick and wild moves, while slicing them up from all directions. This change would give especialyl then synergy with the Impaling Lotus effect from the daredevil.

Dancing Dagger: Should steal boons from foes, when the dagger hits a foe through the bounces multiple times and get some increased velocity by like 20%

Cloak and Dagger: Just change it to an on demand stealth, that doesn’t require anymore targets to hit. For 6 initiative, it deserves to be an on demand stealth.
replace vulnerability with blindness. If you hit with it, the damage that you deal then is just an extra reward for risking it to get into melee and that damage from cloak and dagger should get slightly increased and give the thief for 2 seoncds quickness, so that there is a rewarding incentive to risk going into melee to land the hit also instead of usign just the safe way by going into stealth with it from safe range without hitting someone.

Literally every single one of these is grossly OP, and the very last one is so bad almost spit out my drink. “For 6 initiative we deserve to just stealth on demand regardless of targets or hitting” LOOOL.

you know, when i first read that post i was dead set that it was a joke post mocking OP’s clear lack of understanding of the importance of counterplay.

now, i’m not so sure.

now that you reminded me of concealed defeat, please drop that stupid smokescreen. it’s like a giant arrow pointing “DEAD THIEF HERE”, meaning it’s just unviable to bring the skill if you want the cheaper deceptions.

Ravoku.1852:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Ravoku.1852:

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).

side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.

I respectfully disagree. I’m also not against removing the root from similar skills on the same principle, the first of which comes to mind is mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy. As for the Guardian skill (assuming Sword #3?), it doesn’t really stand to gain much from removal of the root on account of it being a ranged attack, so I’d be content either way.

Does pistol whip hit hard? Sure, I don’t think there’s any need to adjust the damage. However, it only hits hard assuming all hits connect:

• Even with the 1/2 second stun, it’s surprisingly easy to simply walk out of range to avoid a considerable amount of the damage, which suddenly becomes not so high anymore. That’s just assuming we precasted pistol whip.

• Instead, let’s assume we chose to set up using the immob on Infiltrator’s Strike. That’s a 1 second immobilize. Assuming we go immediately into the pistol whip, we need to subtract 3/4 seconds to account for the windup. With 1/4 seconds left on the immobilize, we connect with the stun portion of pistol whip. The immobilize will wear off before the stun does, meaning using Infiltrator’s Strike as a means of securing most of the actual damage is ineffective.

Lastly, we can take a look at a similar skill, Unrelenting Assault. Compared to Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy. All 3 of these are very similar in what they aim to achieve: high damage that depends on multiple strikes connecting whilst evading.

• Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy both require that you initiate the attack in melee range, with the only difference being that Thief is vulnerable for just a hair longer due to the windup, but this is fair between the two because you get a stun (albeit short) out of it.

• Unrelenting Assault, on the other hand, may be activated outside of melee range, evades for a considerably longer period of time than the other two skills, and requires no further or prior action to stay on the target. This is without accounting for the might it grants, or the likelihood that a number of UA’s strikes will be unblockable as well.

My point is, there’s a skill that accomplishes the same thing as at least two other skills where the only reliable methods of damage mitigation are dodging and invuln while said skills are avoidable by all forms of mitigation (dodge, invuln, block, blind, waddling out of the way). I’m only asking that skills receive similar rewards for similar risk.

honestly, i think that’s more of a problem with how stupid strong UA is, although it has no cleave that i know of, while PW cleaves 3 targets.

does cleaving make it any better at 1v1/spiking down scenarios? no, not really. but we have daggers for that. S/P is a more PvE-oriented set, and an incredibly good one at that, especially paired with SoM and IP for pseudo lifeleech builds. i don’t think we should have all skills in the game suddenly not require any sort of CC setup to deal damage. hundred blades remains a rooted skill, and every now and then it shows up again in the meta, coupled with whatever new strong CC warrior got. heck, S/P was meta for a few weeks when its damage-to-ini was ridiculously strong.

BobbyT.7192:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

D/D, being a stealth-oriented build, has better cleanse than most stuff on thief. hide in shadows + cleanse on stealth is a great heal and cleanse.

the problem with D/D is that when played as a condi (or even hybrid) set, it only has one useful skill, death blossom, and death blossom right now is really clunky (seriously, up those evade frames. there are top PvPers playing the game with ping higher than that).

my suggestions:

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

this doesn’t solve the fact that heartseeker, CnD, and backstab remain useless to the kit, but at least it would be a nice condi set that could go for either tricks or traps for the utility.

as for your suggestions… i honestly disagree with half of them. basi venom is incredibly strong (also, it’s 40 seconds, not 45); revealed is already pretty kitten short (unless you count the times when someone sacrifices a utility slot specifically to spite you); SR needs some sort of counter that doesn’t rely on gimmick utilities (i.e. AoE reveal), plus it’s already the best utility skill in the whole game across all professions, last thing it needs is a buff; D/D and D/P have pretty much on-demand stealth even without traiting or bringing utilities (and yes, i mean PvP).

S/R is the best utility in game? Til a knockback comes in that WILL hit because we don’t have stability. Basilisk venom needs to be able to stack. And yes, when I’m referring to revealed, I am referring to 6+ second revealed. You’re a Dead D/D if that hits you. Another thing I forgot to mention. Make targeted skills drop if you stealth. I’m tired of getting an entire rapid fire into my kitten while I’m in stealth.

a knockback that the guy has to aim blindly at and hope it pushes you far enough out of it that you get revealed (hint, position your SR against a wall if you’re really that unconfident on your dodging skills).

basilisk venom does stack, if you actually wait. if you stealth, basi while in the safety of stealth, backstab, and heartseeker, that’s almost the full 3 seconds that you kept the guy stuck in place, all while dealing ridiculous damage. by then, panic strike will have triggered, giving you another 2 seconds of immobilizing to go ham on the poor guy.

channeled skills not dropping when someone stealths is a way to counter stealth. stealth isn’t a free “i win” card. one of the ways to deal with it is to start a channeled skill when you know the thief will panic-stealth (like, say, when they’re low on health and trying to drop a shadow refuge). also, channeled skills can be dodged and LoS’d. if you just hide behind anything, even a tree stump, you’ll be safe against the rapid fire.

By the way you’re talking I don’t think you’ve played much D/D in your time. Many knockbacks cover the ENTIRE circle of SR. I think of Mesmers GS 5 off of the top of my head. You’re also acting like ArenaNet and seem to be assuming you will land everything since your target isn’t moving…. A lot of the time you wont land your Basilisk venom due to Invuln, blind, block, etc etc.

so wait, you don’t want to be punished when someone manages to knock you back with a big, obvious skill that you didn’t dodge for god knows what reason (also, you could’ve considered shadowstepping away before using SR, to buy you time), and you don’t want to be punished when someone defends themselves against your elite skill, which you should’ve landed FROM STEALTH? are you not seeing the problem with your complaints here?

yeah, i’m “sounding like the ANet guys”, because the ANet guys actually put thought into their design decisions, even if you think it doesn’t seem like it, and they take it into account that this game isn’t just for thieves.

Jesus. Go play D/D in WvW for a few hours and come back with a different opinion lmfao. You clearly don’t use the set. It’s clear.

no, i don’t. i prefer D/P. none of those issues you raised are exclusive to D/D though, as they’re all utility-related, and honestly, they’re all L2P issues. shadow refuge, basilisk venom, and being hit by channeled skills while in stealth, none of those “issues” have anything to do with what weapon you’re using.

spend some time on sPvP, see what people better than you do in a live environment instead of just montages, then take what you learn back to WvW. ‘cause right now, it’s clear you just want an easy win and no way for your opponents to counter you.

LOL. No. You play a build that gives you on demend stealth whenever you want. D/P is a walk in the park compared to D/D. People who aren’t good enough to use D/D, use D/P. lol. Seriously. Try D/D. Enjoy missing one CnD and then getting destroyed because of it. Go try.

No one here is arguing about not improving the thief, and I kinda like you blind on C&D.
What you suggesting is a buff to SR and BV, some of the strongest skills that thief’s got.

What you’re calling a weakness is what everyone else is calling counter play.
Most of the regulars here has played enough of the thief to know most of it’s short comings. Even though there may be a little differences of opinion on how to improve them, most people here agree that shadow refuge should be the last thing to be looked at. There’s a reason it stapled to most thieves bar.

thank you.

assassin.7895:

He rezzed me and put SR on me and I revealed myself.

Who’s noob, me or the kitten thief?

you. for the love of god, don’t attack while downed. you’re not about to take the other player down. trust the thief to get you in stealth.

Ravoku.1852:

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).

side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.

(yes, i know it’s not that important when in less than a month we’ll have leagues, which will replace them).

so i’ve gotten back into PvPing ever since one of my friends finally decided it’s fun to PvP, and we’ve been duo queueing a couple times a week. out of curiosity, i wanted to see our rank in the leaderboards.

to my surprise, the leaderboard hasn’t been keeping track of my playing since early april, and for some reason everything prior to that is gone. so i have only two matches played, according to it (both wins). what about the dozens of other matches i played in between, or the hundreds of matches i played before? my friend, who only really got into PvPing a couple weeks ago, doesn’t even show up.

do they stay off while those test seasons weren’t going on? ‘cause that seems like a silly thing. i hope the new ladders/leagues don’t do that then.

wolfpaq.7354:

Ah my apologies for misrepresenting your view. I’ll update to 1050.

I see no convincing reason for thieves to be the only class in the game without a 1200 range option though.

none of our weapons fit it, sadly.

much as i want 1200 range and some ranged AoE, i don’t think shoehorning it into our current weapons is the solution. yes, it means we’d have to wait for another elite spec, one that gave us a rifle or longbow (or something stupid and out there like mainhand torches with 1200 range), to get those things.

still holding out hope for a rifle with AoE on impact (like engi’s pistol AA mixed with mortar kit, only more thief-themed), instead of the “OMG SNIPER 360 NOSCOPE HEADSHOT” thing everyone wants (tip: run a killshot warrior on full zerk).

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

I’d personally be more inclined to a dodge that would knockback people we cross without damage, so the dodges could also be used as interrupts.
(we could call it something like : “tackle”).

Adding stealth mechanism into Daredevil doesn’t seem to fit the theme.

I’d argue as long at the Daredevil is picking 2 out of the 5 core Thief trait lines Stealth will regularly be an element in their gameplay .

shadow arts is really the only one that DEMANDS stealth gameplay. acro, DA and trickery have no stealth, and CS has like, one stealth trait, that no one takes because it’s redundant.

hell, right now the most interesting DD builds are S/P and S/D, neither of which have any stealth (technically S/D has it, but no one uses it).

there’s nothing wrong with a spec not being fit for every single build/playstyle. they’re specializations after all, not broad piles of traits. plus, i think bound’s leap finisher is a great complement to /P builds, giving them access to stealth without burning initiative on multiple skills or utilities.

Amante.8109:

BrunoBRS.5178:

<3 for having the same opinion. i thought i was the only thief that still remembered dancing dagger exists :P

Dancing Dagger is up there with Shadow Strike as one of my favorite Thief weapon skills. It just FEELS awesome. I would love to see it do a bit more damage though, especially against a single target. As is, you kind of need to ping-pong it between 2+ targets to get the most out of it.

i don’t mind that it’s a niche skill that needs multiple targets, D/D is already in that territory (death blossom is pretty horrible if you don’t take in consideration it’s AoE, though i think it’s still weak even then). i do mind, however, that it’s kind of a useless skill even with multiple targets.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

D/D, being a stealth-oriented build, has better cleanse than most stuff on thief. hide in shadows + cleanse on stealth is a great heal and cleanse.

the problem with D/D is that when played as a condi (or even hybrid) set, it only has one useful skill, death blossom, and death blossom right now is really clunky (seriously, up those evade frames. there are top PvPers playing the game with ping higher than that).

my suggestions:

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

this doesn’t solve the fact that heartseeker, CnD, and backstab remain useless to the kit, but at least it would be a nice condi set that could go for either tricks or traps for the utility.

as for your suggestions… i honestly disagree with half of them. basi venom is incredibly strong (also, it’s 40 seconds, not 45); revealed is already pretty kitten short (unless you count the times when someone sacrifices a utility slot specifically to spite you); SR needs some sort of counter that doesn’t rely on gimmick utilities (i.e. AoE reveal), plus it’s already the best utility skill in the whole game across all professions, last thing it needs is a buff; D/D and D/P have pretty much on-demand stealth even without traiting or bringing utilities (and yes, i mean PvP).

S/R is the best utility in game? Til a knockback comes in that WILL hit because we don’t have stability. Basilisk venom needs to be able to stack. And yes, when I’m referring to revealed, I am referring to 6+ second revealed. You’re a Dead D/D if that hits you. Another thing I forgot to mention. Make targeted skills drop if you stealth. I’m tired of getting an entire rapid fire into my kitten while I’m in stealth.

a knockback that the guy has to aim blindly at and hope it pushes you far enough out of it that you get revealed (hint, position your SR against a wall if you’re really that unconfident on your dodging skills).

basilisk venom does stack, if you actually wait. if you stealth, basi while in the safety of stealth, backstab, and heartseeker, that’s almost the full 3 seconds that you kept the guy stuck in place, all while dealing ridiculous damage. by then, panic strike will have triggered, giving you another 2 seconds of immobilizing to go ham on the poor guy.

channeled skills not dropping when someone stealths is a way to counter stealth. stealth isn’t a free “i win” card. one of the ways to deal with it is to start a channeled skill when you know the thief will panic-stealth (like, say, when they’re low on health and trying to drop a shadow refuge). also, channeled skills can be dodged and LoS’d. if you just hide behind anything, even a tree stump, you’ll be safe against the rapid fire.

By the way you’re talking I don’t think you’ve played much D/D in your time. Many knockbacks cover the ENTIRE circle of SR. I think of Mesmers GS 5 off of the top of my head. You’re also acting like ArenaNet and seem to be assuming you will land everything since your target isn’t moving…. A lot of the time you wont land your Basilisk venom due to Invuln, blind, block, etc etc.

so wait, you don’t want to be punished when someone manages to knock you back with a big, obvious skill that you didn’t dodge for god knows what reason (also, you could’ve considered shadowstepping away before using SR, to buy you time), and you don’t want to be punished when someone defends themselves against your elite skill, which you should’ve landed FROM STEALTH? are you not seeing the problem with your complaints here?

yeah, i’m “sounding like the ANet guys”, because the ANet guys actually put thought into their design decisions, even if you think it doesn’t seem like it, and they take it into account that this game isn’t just for thieves.

Jesus. Go play D/D in WvW for a few hours and come back with a different opinion lmfao. You clearly don’t use the set. It’s clear.

no, i don’t. i prefer D/P. none of those issues you raised are exclusive to D/D though, as they’re all utility-related, and honestly, they’re all L2P issues. shadow refuge, basilisk venom, and being hit by channeled skills while in stealth, none of those “issues” have anything to do with what weapon you’re using.

spend some time on sPvP, see what people better than you do in a live environment instead of just montages, then take what you learn back to WvW. ‘cause right now, it’s clear you just want an easy win and no way for your opponents to counter you.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

D/D, being a stealth-oriented build, has better cleanse than most stuff on thief. hide in shadows + cleanse on stealth is a great heal and cleanse.

the problem with D/D is that when played as a condi (or even hybrid) set, it only has one useful skill, death blossom, and death blossom right now is really clunky (seriously, up those evade frames. there are top PvPers playing the game with ping higher than that).

my suggestions:

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

this doesn’t solve the fact that heartseeker, CnD, and backstab remain useless to the kit, but at least it would be a nice condi set that could go for either tricks or traps for the utility.

as for your suggestions… i honestly disagree with half of them. basi venom is incredibly strong (also, it’s 40 seconds, not 45); revealed is already pretty kitten short (unless you count the times when someone sacrifices a utility slot specifically to spite you); SR needs some sort of counter that doesn’t rely on gimmick utilities (i.e. AoE reveal), plus it’s already the best utility skill in the whole game across all professions, last thing it needs is a buff; D/D and D/P have pretty much on-demand stealth even without traiting or bringing utilities (and yes, i mean PvP).

S/R is the best utility in game? Til a knockback comes in that WILL hit because we don’t have stability. Basilisk venom needs to be able to stack. And yes, when I’m referring to revealed, I am referring to 6+ second revealed. You’re a Dead D/D if that hits you. Another thing I forgot to mention. Make targeted skills drop if you stealth. I’m tired of getting an entire rapid fire into my kitten while I’m in stealth.

a knockback that the guy has to aim blindly at and hope it pushes you far enough out of it that you get revealed (hint, position your SR against a wall if you’re really that unconfident on your dodging skills).

basilisk venom does stack, if you actually wait. if you stealth, basi while in the safety of stealth, backstab, and heartseeker, that’s almost the full 3 seconds that you kept the guy stuck in place, all while dealing ridiculous damage. by then, panic strike will have triggered, giving you another 2 seconds of immobilizing to go ham on the poor guy.

channeled skills not dropping when someone stealths is a way to counter stealth. stealth isn’t a free “i win” card. one of the ways to deal with it is to start a channeled skill when you know the thief will panic-stealth (like, say, when they’re low on health and trying to drop a shadow refuge). also, channeled skills can be dodged and LoS’d. if you just hide behind anything, even a tree stump, you’ll be safe against the rapid fire.

By the way you’re talking I don’t think you’ve played much D/D in your time. Many knockbacks cover the ENTIRE circle of SR. I think of Mesmers GS 5 off of the top of my head. You’re also acting like ArenaNet and seem to be assuming you will land everything since your target isn’t moving…. A lot of the time you wont land your Basilisk venom due to Invuln, blind, block, etc etc.

so wait, you don’t want to be punished when someone manages to knock you back with a big, obvious skill that you didn’t dodge for god knows what reason (also, you could’ve considered shadowstepping away before using SR, to buy you time), and you don’t want to be punished when someone defends themselves against your elite skill, which you should’ve landed FROM STEALTH? are you not seeing the problem with your complaints here?

yeah, i’m “sounding like the ANet guys”, because the ANet guys actually put thought into their design decisions, even if you think it doesn’t seem like it, and they take it into account that this game isn’t just for thieves.

Sagat.3285:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sagat.3285:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

Some Suggestions:

*Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

*Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

*Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

*Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight

Thanks for the update Karl!

no pistol will ever compete with shortbow, unless they somehow give pistols a long range, ground targeted movement skill (like, say, staff #5, if they buff it), infinite blast finishers, and a pulsing poison field to slow down rezzes.

It is possible for p/p and p/d(if d/d was really a hybrid set) to compete with SB if combat oriented. Losing SB means losing disengage a lot of us ask for better team presence that presence could be fulfilled by those two if we give up the mobility of SB. That’s partially why I wanted rifle for elite spec since p/p and p/d got nerfed with the intro of spec lines.

That’s why p/p needs to give up that “spam to try” design and offer combat sustain same with with p/d(that one kind of did until CiS became a GM RIP synergy) since SB has the mobility. All people saw when “Team Rifle” was around was a 1200 weapon we saw more than that. Little or big number changes won’t change that so we are where we are.

I don’t know what more is in store but if that’s not the mentality that’s around p/d and p/p I would prefer them to tell us so we can stop hoping. The other way is if we can drop semi-tanks as soon as they are in range meaning game breaking damage increase.

but that’s the thing, thieves don’t need two weapon sets to fight. the initiative is shared, so two sets are largely useless. and no one takes SB for fighting, we take it for the utility. it’s an excellent weapon for dealing with downed players (poison + high damage AoE), and it’s the single best mobility in the game.

saying that another set will be able to rival SB because it’ll do better than SB in combat is not understanding why SB is taken in the first place.

You just proved it our combat presence are limited because SB has no competitors and they haven’t tried to make the two capable of it but SB isn’t the weapon you would stay in to fight so there is a large room for improvement for p/p and p/d in combat presence which is they have or used to have in p/d case or never had in p/p case..hopefully you get it.

Design change:
+3 initiative from Trickery delete it no not baseline delete it
+3 initiative gain on weapon swap is baseline

first, and i mean no offense, but use some punctuation. i honestly couldn’t get most of what you said because it’s a whole paragraph without a single period or comma.

second, i was just arguing against “it can compete with SB”, which is a silly claim, because it can’t compete with SB if they’re competing in entirely different categories.

third, those 3 extra initiative are so vital for thief that no one would even think of running anything but trickery. it would be like an elementalist that doesn’t run arcana.

and last, they’d never add an on-swap effect as baseline, it would be a weird, obtuse mechanic that only exists on one profession.

Amante.8109:

D/D and P/D Condi builds are SO CLOSE to being good post-HoT. All it would take is a few small changes to put this archetype in a good place, such as lengthening the evade frames on Death Blossom and adding Torment to Dancing Dagger.

It’d be nice if Dagger Training wasn’t awful, too. Duration and procrates are way off.

<3 for having the same opinion. i thought i was the only thief that still remembered dancing dagger exists :P

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

The interaction with pistol #5 also needs to change to provide more functionality for s/p and p/p. 20% projectile chance rng on p/p unload means its near useless as a defensive mechanism.

I would go as far as saying reduce pistol #5 to 5 initiative. Increase dagger heartseeker to 4 initiative to compensate.

Then how about a blast finisher on infiltrator’s strike for s/p (stealth access) and making unload 100% chance for the first projectile? Would also suggest pistol #2 is changed.

i like S/P as it is. it’s one of those sets that don’t really need stealth (but since everyone running S/P will probably run daredevil, will get anyway), and where every skill has its use. BP’s pulsing changing to every other second kinda screwed it a bit, but i’d argue for a slight radius increase before dropping its initiative cost (and heartseeker costing 4 ini would just break thief forever).

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

Some Suggestions:

*Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

*Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

*Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

*Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight

Thanks for the update Karl!

no pistol will ever compete with shortbow, unless they somehow give pistols a long range, ground targeted movement skill (like, say, staff #5, if they buff it), infinite blast finishers, and a pulsing poison field to slow down rezzes.

Maybe not, but I don’t think making pistol SB-lite is the answer. I would rather have it have strong in combat fighting ability, meaning evasions and the ability to hinder the enemy. A boon hate design along with some evasive skills could make S/D+P/P something that might be able to stick to a point by killing boon bunkers. Maybe that number 2 skill needs poison in it too. A strong auto would be vital for maintaining pressure while saving your initiative for reacting to the opponent. SB is our utility ranged option, now P/P and P/D need to be our power and condi DPS ranged options.

to be clear, i don’t think pistol should be SB-lite. i was just saying that’s what it would take for someone to drop SB in favor of a pistol.

P/P, in my opinion, needs a new #3. something that gives it either mobility, stealth (directly or indirectly), or evasion, as those are the only things that can keep a thief alive, and incidentally the things that every thief set except P/P has. get pistol a better #2 too while at it. (poison isn’t a bad idea, though that sounds more like dagger’s territory. maybe a bouncy shot a la mesmer pistol that applies different condis based on target order).

Sagat.3285:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

Some Suggestions:

*Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

*Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

*Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

*Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight

Thanks for the update Karl!

no pistol will ever compete with shortbow, unless they somehow give pistols a long range, ground targeted movement skill (like, say, staff #5, if they buff it), infinite blast finishers, and a pulsing poison field to slow down rezzes.

It is possible for p/p and p/d(if d/d was really a hybrid set) to compete with SB if combat oriented. Losing SB means losing disengage a lot of us ask for better team presence that presence could be fulfilled by those two if we give up the mobility of SB. That’s partially why I wanted rifle for elite spec since p/p and p/d got nerfed with the intro of spec lines.

That’s why p/p needs to give up that “spam to try” design and offer combat sustain same with with p/d(that one kind of did until CiS became a GM RIP synergy) since SB has the mobility. All people saw when “Team Rifle” was around was a 1200 weapon we saw more than that. Little or big number changes won’t change that so we are where we are.

I don’t know what more is in store but if that’s not the mentality that’s around p/d and p/p I would prefer them to tell us so we can stop hoping. The other way is if we can drop semi-tanks as soon as they are in range meaning game breaking damage increase.

but that’s the thing, thieves don’t need two weapon sets to fight. the initiative is shared, so two sets are largely useless. and no one takes SB for fighting, we take it for the utility. it’s an excellent weapon for dealing with downed players (poison + high damage AoE), and it’s the single best mobility in the game.

saying that another set will be able to rival SB because it’ll do better than SB in combat is not understanding why SB is taken in the first place.

am i the only one that doesn’t think withdraw needs buffing? i mean, it still heals a solid amount on a decent cooldown, especially when you consider it’s the only instant-cast, un-interruptable heal in the game, and doubles as a panic button, as it flings you away from any danger.

my dream list of changes are mostly tied to my very first build, D/D condi (and i realize this is the third thread in a row i ask for those changes, i just happened to land on 3 threads in a row that talked about it):

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

BrunoBRS.5178:

D/D, being a stealth-oriented build, has better cleanse than most stuff on thief. hide in shadows + cleanse on stealth is a great heal and cleanse.

the problem with D/D is that when played as a condi (or even hybrid) set, it only has one useful skill, death blossom, and death blossom right now is really clunky (seriously, up those evade frames. there are top PvPers playing the game with ping higher than that).

my suggestions:

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

this doesn’t solve the fact that heartseeker, CnD, and backstab remain useless to the kit, but at least it would be a nice condi set that could go for either tricks or traps for the utility.

as for your suggestions… i honestly disagree with half of them. basi venom is incredibly strong (also, it’s 40 seconds, not 45); revealed is already pretty kitten short (unless you count the times when someone sacrifices a utility slot specifically to spite you); SR needs some sort of counter that doesn’t rely on gimmick utilities (i.e. AoE reveal), plus it’s already the best utility skill in the whole game across all professions, last thing it needs is a buff; D/D and D/P have pretty much on-demand stealth even without traiting or bringing utilities (and yes, i mean PvP).

S/R is the best utility in game? Til a knockback comes in that WILL hit because we don’t have stability. Basilisk venom needs to be able to stack. And yes, when I’m referring to revealed, I am referring to 6+ second revealed. You’re a Dead D/D if that hits you. Another thing I forgot to mention. Make targeted skills drop if you stealth. I’m tired of getting an entire rapid fire into my kitten while I’m in stealth.

a knockback that the guy has to aim blindly at and hope it pushes you far enough out of it that you get revealed (hint, position your SR against a wall if you’re really that unconfident on your dodging skills).

basilisk venom does stack, if you actually wait. if you stealth, basi while in the safety of stealth, backstab, and heartseeker, that’s almost the full 3 seconds that you kept the guy stuck in place, all while dealing ridiculous damage. by then, panic strike will have triggered, giving you another 2 seconds of immobilizing to go ham on the poor guy.

channeled skills not dropping when someone stealths is a way to counter stealth. stealth isn’t a free “i win” card. one of the ways to deal with it is to start a channeled skill when you know the thief will panic-stealth (like, say, when they’re low on health and trying to drop a shadow refuge). also, channeled skills can be dodged and LoS’d. if you just hide behind anything, even a tree stump, you’ll be safe against the rapid fire.

now they just need to make dagger training get either longer poisons or a higher chance of application, give death blossom some real evade frames, and, hopefully, give dancing dagger torment application, and D/D condi can finally be a thing.

D/D, being a stealth-oriented build, has better cleanse than most stuff on thief. hide in shadows + cleanse on stealth is a great heal and cleanse.

the problem with D/D is that when played as a condi (or even hybrid) set, it only has one useful skill, death blossom, and death blossom right now is really clunky (seriously, up those evade frames. there are top PvPers playing the game with ping higher than that).

my suggestions:

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

this doesn’t solve the fact that heartseeker, CnD, and backstab remain useless to the kit, but at least it would be a nice condi set that could go for either tricks or traps for the utility.

as for your suggestions… i honestly disagree with half of them. basi venom is incredibly strong (also, it’s 40 seconds, not 45); revealed is already pretty kitten short (unless you count the times when someone sacrifices a utility slot specifically to spite you); SR needs some sort of counter that doesn’t rely on gimmick utilities (i.e. AoE reveal), plus it’s already the best utility skill in the whole game across all professions, last thing it needs is a buff; D/D and D/P have pretty much on-demand stealth even without traiting or bringing utilities (and yes, i mean PvP).