Guild Wars 2

mompen.7952:

BrunoBRS.5178:

i was expecting S/P, SoM, IP, and assassin’s reward. the ultimate self-healing thief build.

Yes, well I originally tried with SoM and IP, without S/P tho. Not a great success, as it wasn’t healing me for enough on D/P. Not enough sustain to survive the big blows.
Will give S/P a go :-)

S/P is THE set to go for SoM. paired with IP, a full pistol whip can heal you about half your health :P

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

that could work on PvE, but the lack of defensive choices outside of some DD traits is a bit too risky for PvP. and i still don’t think D/P is the best synergy with daredevil :P

Tabootrinket.2631:

it just needs a dark field

how would that help the skill in any way? lifeleech whirls? ‘cause weakening charge would throw at most 3 bolts, and you’d be lucky if one of them connected, not to mention it’s quite a convoluted way to get an extra 300-600 damage. vault for a blind leap finisher? you just blinded the person, you don’t need to blind again.

giving it a dark field not only would thematically make no sense, but it wouldn’t help the skill at all.

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

While I agree that pain response is a mediocre trait at best, I didn’t want to remove it because it is widely liked (at least when I’ve suggested changing it before). I left the 3 autoprocs in the line that are useful alone because people prefer different playstyles.

i’d like to see pain response’s trigger to be something different than on hit. also give it a lower cooldown than 20s. maybe every 10s if you have more than 3 conditions on you and you’re below the threshold. or if you’re going to keep the CD on 20s, make it clear torment and confusion as well.

Haha, well, where were you when I threw together my original list before DrD came out?!

Pain Response should trigger on number of conditions (3) only, the same way Burning Fire does. Instead of gaining might on [type of] skill usage though, just have it remove all damaging conditions.

Above was my original change to it. I only got push back on the idea so I didn’t suggest it again after DrD came out.

Here’s the original thread with the back and forth somewhere in it

probably jaded of the thief forums, as usual. only reason i’m sticking around for so long right now is because of all the dev communication regarding daredevil, or else i’d have left again by now.

the thief forum has a tendency to be incredibly whiny about the wrong things, and a lot of people here ask for buffs so preposterous is’s a waste of a potentially interesting conversation (looking at you, people that think revealed shouldn’t exist or that shortbow should get its own, third weapon slot)

i was expecting S/P, SoM, IP, and assassin’s reward. the ultimate self-healing thief build.

Coolster.2536:

BrunoBRS.5178:

to start things off, your build lacks focus. D/P is a stealth-heavy power burst setup. daredevil is a stealthless, evade heavy setup. your trickery traits are geared towards condis, something that conflicts with your weapons and trait choices in the other specs. you also lack deadly arts and critical strikes, the two offensive trait lines for thief. it’s usually best to bring at least one of the two so that you can do some decent damage.

so the best way to ask is, what are you looking for? what are you trying to achieve with your build? game mode, role, etc. just tell me what are you interested in doing with this build, and what kind of playstyle you’re looking for.

I tried to make this build for PvE/PvP so I wanted to make it DPS-y with some survivability. Because DD has no stealth, and from what I know of Thief, stealth is essential for survivability, hence Shadow Arts . I took trickery because it seemed useful for added survivability, but I’ll play around with Deadly Arts and Critical Strikes

well back in the day, thief survivability could be stealth focused, blind focused, or evade focused. the second is still pretty viable in PvE, and the latter is what the daredevil is promising to bring back.

personally, i’d swap dagger with sword, or go for staff. you can keep trickery if you want, but those condi traits need to go. bountiful theft is a great trait and gives you a nice amount of vigor, and both non-condi adept traits are good picks.

then you also drop shadow arts, because daredevil isn’t meant for stealth. personally, i think critical strikes works better for PvE, while deadly arts is better for PvP (panic strike immobilize is great for free bursts).

on a side note, when you go for shadow arts for a stealth build, do NOT pick last refuge. at least 50% of the time, that skill backfires, and triggers halfway through an attack, causing you to reveal yourself instead of stealthing you.

to start things off, your build lacks focus. D/P is a stealth-heavy power burst setup. daredevil is a stealthless, evade heavy setup. your trickery traits are geared towards condis, something that conflicts with your weapons and trait choices in the other specs. you also lack deadly arts and critical strikes, the two offensive trait lines for thief. it’s usually best to bring at least one of the two so that you can do some decent damage.

so the best way to ask is, what are you looking for? what are you trying to achieve with your build? game mode, role, etc. just tell me what are you interested in doing with this build, and what kind of playstyle you’re looking for.

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

While I agree that pain response is a mediocre trait at best, I didn’t want to remove it because it is widely liked (at least when I’ve suggested changing it before). I left the 3 autoprocs in the line that are useful alone because people prefer different playstyles.

i’d like to see pain response’s trigger to be something different than on hit. also give it a lower cooldown than 20s. maybe every 10s if you have more than 3 conditions on you and you’re below the threshold. or if you’re going to keep the CD on 20s, make it clear torment and confusion as well.

Nike.2631:

Not if you’re blithely assuming that a moderate number of people posting to this sub-forum were reading it then, when the name was in common use. You’ve succeeded in making me feel old. Well done .

been around since the betas, and never heard the name, though i sure as hell heard of a lot of D/D condi builds. there’s a reason pet names for builds never caught on with GW2, it’s because we can describe any build with two to four letters and/or a role (D/D cele ele, bunker guard, S/D thief, etc.). giving it a silly name just makes it harder to convey what the build is for.

sPvP I tend to just play up bunkering – I don’t have to win fights I just have to make them last a really, really long time while the point’s already under my control. In practice I can usually tie up people long enough that not only are we getting a solid swing in points but a friendly +1 from my team can drop buy and murder my frustrated foe.

i sincerely question the usefulness of this build’s capacity for bunkering against any player with half a brain. death blossom was never reliable for dodging and has terrible aftercasting. SoM + DB only really benefits when you’re hitting entire groups (hell, DB is only more than mediocre when you’re cleaving various targets with it). your damage output is too low, and your damage mitigation is down to two dodges and a 1/4s evade with a long aftercast. you can’t CnD because you need to be visible to keep the point contested, you can’t shadowstep because the point requires contestion, you can’t even roll for initiative without rolling off the point in most places.

any half decent player would be able to decap the point and take the thief down by themselves, if a thief tried a build like that in PvP.

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

Gray.9041:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Bleeds won’t be a good option, considering there’s no other conditions on staff.

D/D – poison on AA, bleeds on Death Blossom
P/D – bleed on AA, torment on shadow strike
P/P – bleed on AA,
D/P – poison on AA,
SB – bleed on detonate cluster, poison on choking gas

there’s not a single thief weapon set with access to more than two damaging conditions across more than two skills. it’s not stopped them before, why bother now?

you listed two condi-viable sets (and forgot the bleed on stealth skill from one of them), one power set that has a really weak poison on auto (an auto that already hits like a truck), a utility set, and freaking pistol/pistol.

even more so, you acknowledge that just slapping a condition to the skill is not a good solution.

and yet you want it. you want condi damage on an otherwise obviously power-geared weapon.

it’s like asking for infiltrator strike to inflict torment, just because.

giving bleeds to staff won’t make it, or dust strike, any better.

Nike.2631:

BrunoBRS.5178:

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

It would have taken an eighth as long to just type “GW2 super unicorn” into Google .

The full name is of course “Leaping Super Immortal Death Troll Legendary Unicorn Blossom”

Link to full discussion here.

My Daredevil-ized version.

Main thing is it uses high number-of-hit attacks (D/D 3, P/P 3, daggerstorm) as massive self-heals. Caltrop bleeding and direct strikes do most of your damage.

see, i played that. except i’ve never seen it called that. that’s just a silly name for “D/D condi with assassin’s reward and SoM” or (D/D condi acro for short). came up with that exact same build (down to the undead runes) back when i first got to 80, because death blossom was my favorite GW1 skill and i always loved SoM builds.

don’t you think it’s a bit pretentious to assume people know the name a random person on a guild forum gave to one of the most popular condi thief builds back in aug. 2012? sheesh.

but on that note, yes, i’ve been longing for the moment when i can go back to D/D condi through daredevil. i gave it a few runs in stronghold last beta, it was fun. the daggers really help. that said, i didn’t use acro, because i needed deadly arts for dagger training and potent poison.

this is what i was running.

your version is awfully similar to what i used to run in PvE (i’d run shaman’s mixed with rabid though, and shadow refuge because it’s freaking shadow refuge), but it’s completely impractical in PvP. my PvP alternative is a hybrid build, to make the most out of the elite and heartseeker when i need to finish someone off. cele amulet over rampager is an obvious choice, as the damage sacrifice is well worth the extra defense, which is pretty much mandatory for PvP thief. alternatively, you can swap sigil of torment with sigil of venom and swap to carrion, works just as fine, especially if you have a herald to grant you fury. going pure condi (rabid) is not recommended, as the thief isn’t the best at condi spikes, and as such doesn’t benefit from it as much. plus, all that toughness will do little to stop the condis coming your way when you’re at 10k health.

Christonya.3856:

BrunoBRS.5178:

again, the sword mainhand sets both see good play with zero stealth. S/D can get in stealth, but no S/D player with half a brain will ever do it.

Only bringing this up due to how insanely false it is. If you want to give out information and argue points, at least try to be correct.

it’s clear from your other posts that you’re discussing PvE dungeon stacking, while i’m talking PvP. look up any S/D PvP video and find one that CnD is used at any point. at best, you’ll find someone using it to stealth themselves before a stomp.

Christonya.3856:

Not better, the same. The point is to carry forward a mechanic that is NECESSARY. Right now, in pve, when fighting trash you almost always run S/P and keep BP down 100% of the time to constantly apply blinds, staff will never see pve play due to the lack of utility. Furthermore smoke fields are the ‘stealth combo’ fields. Soooooooooooo Yeah, it has to be smoke, nothing else would work.

so staff needs to be like S/P, instead of, you know, just using S/P. why do you want another weapon that does the same thing? that’s such a stupid, self-defeating argument. you have S/P if you want to pulse blinds on stupid mobs while cleaving, you don’t need another weapon that does the same thing. and hell, it’s freaking dungeon stacking. anyone can do the blind for you. even the necro.

“never see PvE play” is a silly line, because all you’re talking about is how it needs a skill like black powder just so that you can use it in a very specific part of a very specific type of PvE content.

Christonya.3856:

Or….. Add a smoke field to staff 4, making staff viable in pve, giving staff some much needed utility, and allowing us to bound / vault in it for stealth to set up the stealth hit.

and then you have a skill that’s exactly like black powder, but better.

for christ’s sake, people, i know we’ve been stuck with D/P for long, but can you really not think of any way to play thief that doesn’t involve leaping through smoke fields?

Maugetarr.6823:

Expeditious Dodger: 3 seconds of swiftness on dodge.
ME: Fleet Shadow->Explosive Speed: Gain 3 seconds of super speed when you gain swiftness (8 sec ICD)

completely forgot to mention this trait on my own list. agree that it needs to change, really like the idea of giving thief access to superspeed. the mobility profession doesn’t have the ultimate mobility boon. it’s weird.

EM: Pain Response: Fine as is
BE: Vigorous Recovery: Gain 5 seconds of vigor on heal. When you gain vigor, lose a condition (5 sec ICD)

with pain response’s cooldown, acro’s large access to vigor, wouldn’t both skills being about condi cleansing be a bit redundant? i know if i had condi clear on vigor, i’d never see a reason to take pain response. that said, i think condi clear on vigor is an interesting idea.

ME: Guarded Initiation -> Captive Transversal: When you shadowstep to a target, immobilize that target for 1.5 seconds (8 sec ICD)

how would that work with all the untargeted shadowsteps, or the ones that don’t reach? or the returns? or shadow trap? i agree that guarded initiation needs to be scrapped for another trait, but i’m not sure if that’s the best option.

BE: Swindler’s Equilibrium: Reduce steal cooldown by 3 seconds on successful evasion. No weapon restriction (5 sec ICD)

i like it.

ME: Assassin’s Reward -> Swindler’s Transversal: When you shadowstep to your target, transfer 1 condition and steal 1 boon (8 sec ICD)

same as the other, it’s basically a trait for steal and infiltrator strike, most shadowsteps on thief would have weird/unintended behavior with it. plus, i like assassin’s reward, it just needs a buff.

BE: Upper Hand: Gain 3-5 endurance on hitting the opponent (1 sec ICD) (would need to be play tested to determine strength)

i preferred the initiative gain, TBH. daredevil is more focused on raw endurance gain, acro already gains endurance through high vigor uptime. allowing for good initiative regen through a trait would give acro an offensive edge on an otherwise defensive line.

epoc.7941:

Doggie.3184:

Well if Staff/DD isn’t a stealth weapon like S/P and S/D or not supposed to be a stealth reliant class it probably shouldn’t have a Stealth Attack and have it proc in a different way.

Wow that’s like saying mesmers shouldn’t have a f4 if the clones don’t do damage,

umm… no it’s not. in fact, your example makes no sense.

Just bc it’s not stealth reliant doesn’t mean the stealth mechanic should disappear are u suggesting that you’ll never stealth? Blinding powder? SR? And if u have d/d d/p p/d s/d even s/p all will give you access to stealth to take advantage of staffs stealth attack after swapping to it

And before you say it yes s/p 5>swap>5>1

again, the sword mainhand sets both see good play with zero stealth. S/D can get in stealth, but no S/D player with half a brain will ever do it.

the stealth skill is there. if you go in stealth for whatever reason, you can use it.

you don’t need to access the skill through weapon skills alone. you don’t need a convoluted way to trigger a stealth skill without stealth.

acro should be a defensive line. thief has enough offensive trait lines as it is. copypasting my thoughts on acro from the sticky:

here are some changes i’d like to see on acrobatics:

• make pain response a more reliable skill. once every 20 seconds on hit is pretty meh, though the trigger effect isn’t half bad (the regen is redundant though).

• redo guarded initiation. this is the most useless skill in any thief line by a long margin. no thief will find themselves in a situation where they’re at 90% health, but have conditions on them. even then, i doubt this hypothetical thief would be “jeez, i wish i didn’t have weakness and slow on me right now”. they’d probably wait it out before engaging, instead of bringing a trait. this would be a great spot to give thieves a whole new trait

• i know you want swords to have a trait, but swindler’s equilibrium would actually be a really good pick if it didn’t go “once per second, and only with swords!”. either take a look at the ICD, or make it recharge more than a second. someone taking both acro and trickery would already be giving up a lot, if your concern is that it would be too strong when paired with sleight of hand.

• haven’t gotten to test it, but make sure hard to catch actually refills 100% endurance, not 100 endurance. it makes a difference for daredevil. alternatively, give signet of agility a stunbreak and make the trait proc its active effect. would you look at that, it would give thief some condi clear, even if extremely situational.

• assassin’s reward used to be one of my favorite traits before it became a GM trait (which means it was looooooooooong before the june patch). it’s just too weak to justify being picked though. i’d like to see it get a slight buff to the base heal (like 20-30 health per ini), and give it a high healing power scaling, because some thieves think running cleric’s, shaman’s or zealot’s is really fun.

• upper hand has the same problem as swindler’s equilibrium. either reduce the ICD, or make the trigger effect stronger.

Driften.8716:

snip

the problem with hybrid condi thief is that their attacks are either condi attacks, or damage attacks. you either burn all your ini on death blossoms, or you do it on CnD/heartseeker. and P/D, well, it would need a lot before it could be hybrid.

so instead of being like necro, where they can have a pure condi build that does a ton of condis with most attacks, or a pure power build, or like a ranger, that can run power and condi so they can still hit hard while dishing out condis, thief is in this weird set up where the traits say “play hybrid!” but the weapons say “pick one!”

Merv DeGriff.8513:

I found it was good for locking down a single heavy hitter as you engaged it in PVE… making it 360 degree (2 pi for you engy grads!) PBAOE given how it can be fired off back to back might be a bit much.

Perhaps a cone with a 3 target cap?

yeah, but if you’re spending all your initiative keeping someone blinded, you’re not spending it doing damage.

the reason a circular PBAoE is important is because the daredevil playstyle demands it. weakening charge, vault, and all three special dodges cause you to have your back against the opposing player all the time. DD is a playstyle about getting in teamfights, and staff is a weapon that complements that with a lot of circular cleaving. dust strike can’t be used effectively with this playstyle because it demands you moving to the sidelines before using it properly.

if it was a circular AoE around the player, instead of a projectile, it would be a great skill. no, it doesn’t need to pulse blinds nor be a field.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.

like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.

S/P and S/D have been fine for three years without having to use their stealth skill. let’s not come up with a convoluted way to give staff access to it. stealth skills on every weapon are more of a formality.

P/D it’s quite vital for the build, as it lets you precast CnD from range.

P/P, well, idunno. it’s P/P.

alchemyst.2165:

Very good idea, but it would need to go into Acro. It needs the love, and putting it in DD would only make it outshine it more. I just think EA needs to be minor with DF, then add another condi removal option that wouldn’t outshine Staff Master and Impacting Disruption, but still be useful. Something like “Using a stolen skill removes a condition.” Would give synergy with Deadly Arts as well.

i agree that acro should be the trait line about defensive choices tied to mobility and steal.

IMO, EA could be a minor and DF could be a major, if it got buffed (maybe reduce the ICD to 1/2 or 1/4?). then, acro could see some buffs that defined it as the thief’s defensive line, with some improvements to condi removal and other benefits to defensive playstyle.

here are some changes i’d like to see on acrobatics:

• make pain response a more reliable skill. once every 20 seconds on hit is pretty meh, though the trigger effect isn’t half bad (the regen is redundant though).

• redo guarded initiation. this is the most useless skill in any thief line by a long margin. no thief will find themselves in a situation where they’re at 90% health, but have conditions on them. even then, i doubt this hypothetical thief would be “jeez, i wish i didn’t have weakness and slow on me right now”. they’d probably wait it out before engaging, instead of bringing a trait. this would be a great spot to give thieves a whole new trait

• i know you want swords to have a trait, but swindler’s equilibrium would actually be a really good pick if it didn’t go “once per second, and only with swords!”. either take a look at the ICD, or make it recharge more than a second. someone taking both acro and trickery would already be giving up a lot, if your concern is that it would be too strong when paired with sleight of hand.

• haven’t gotten to test it, but make sure hard to catch actually refills 100% endurance, not 100 endurance. it makes a difference for daredevil. alternatively, give signet of agility a stunbreak and make the trait proc its active effect. would you look at that, it would give thief some condi clear, even if extremely situational.

• assassin’s reward used to be one of my favorite traits before it became a GM trait (which means it was looooooooooong before the june patch). it’s just too weak to justify being picked though. i’d like to see it get a slight buff to the base heal (like 20-30 health per ini), and give it a high healing power scaling, because some thieves think running cleric’s, shaman’s or zealot’s is really fun.

• upper hand has the same problem as swindler’s equilibrium. either reduce the ICD, or make the trigger effect stronger.

Nike.2631:

BrunoBRS.5178:

you’re just dying to have someone ask you what “super unicorn” is, aren’t you?

Honestly I shouldn’t have to, since it’s been our premier bunker build for nearly 3 years.

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

far as i know, the best bunker thief build i’ve seen being used was S/P, but it was looooooooooong ago and i don’t know the traits the guy i saw using it was using, since his playstyle relied mostly on keeping the capture point blinded while he hurted anyone that tried getting close to it.

babazhook.6805:

What havoc master COULD do is be changed to give 7 percent more damage to both power and conditions when in range. This would favor close in condition builds but so be it.

the thing with that is that it’s much harder to implement situational condition damage like that. for power damage is easy, it’s just a range check when the damage is applied. for condi damage, it has to keep track of everyone that has a damaging condi you applied, and their range, for every tick, and then give it a bonus condi damage (or not) before calculating the tick’s damage.

these things are much harder to test nowadays, because we don’t have weapons with fixed damage values anymore. not sure how you’d test those 10% reliably.

i’d like to see it have a secondary functionality (like replacing the cripple with a daze, and/or giving it the projectile reflection from the autoattack), and maybe evade you backwards even further (like, as far as withdraw), now that vault has evasion and smoother aftercast, allowing to engage with it more easily after a quick temporary disengage through debilitating arc.

Nike.2631:

Karl McLain.5604:

Here’s a couple other updates that had been in the works and are now in testing.

• Vault: Reduced aftercast by 80ms. Added a 500ms evade at the start of the ability.
• Distracting Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Impairing Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Weakening Strikes: This trait now grants 10% damage reduction when being struck by a weakened foe, in addition to weakening foes on critical hit.

Muhuhuwahahahahhhh…

Oh man. Super Unicorn is BACK with a vengeance, baby!

you’re just dying to have someone ask you what “super unicorn” is, aren’t you?

Nike.2631:

PopeUrban.2578:

bliss.4305:

I don’t understand how any thief here can find logic in being able to deal damage and stay stealthed at the same time with absolutely 0 loss of stealth.

Mesmer Minions

Ranger Pets

Engineer Gyros/turrets

Necromancer Minions

You left out Drangonhunter-Trapper Runes with Spirit Weapons

Ok. Its terrible now. But one day… ((shakes fist at sky))

i’m trying to picture a build that has enough traps with low-ish CDs to justify trapper runes, and still has room to bring sword and hammer.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

We’re talking within the context of Thief, a profession that should be immune to Revealed. PU Mesmer should keep their Reveal but remove it from Thief’s skills.

Besides, are you responding to my post where I said that this is for PvE? If so, then what’s OP in PvE?

dude, revealed is a mechanic that was created exclusively because of thieves. and “oh, just break PvE, it’s ok” isn’t a solution.

can you imagine a new thief playing PvE, enjoying the lol permastealth of spamming CnD on monsters without any punishment, then going to PvP and, lo and behold, there’s this whole other mechanic that completely changes the way the profession is played is just thrown at them without warning? that’s terrible game design. it’s one thing for skills to be weaker or stronger depending on game mode (PvE revealed is only 3 seconds, PvP is 4), it’s another to outright remove a whole mechanic because you don’t know how to play with it.

counterplay to revealed should be that reveal skills can be avoided, not a mechanic on top of a mechanic that is designed to hold back a third mechanic. that’s just feature creeping the hell out of stealth.

even if the cast time is short, untargeted reveals should have one, and targeted ones, well, the guy has to have the foresight to know you’re about to go into stealth to use it well, so it’s already the counter to a mechanic.

yes, i’m aware that my opinion is unpopular among thieves, but i do think reveal-applying skills have their place in the game without needing another mechanic to make them null and void. it’s all a matter of having fair play, and right now most reveal skills have it (sic’em needs to be looked into though >.> )

i’ll leave the guardian mains to go more in depth on the effect of those changes, but i wanted to give my two cents:

• boons on trap activation is good, and gives them more utility, but it’s kind of boring. like a lazy solution to give them more interesting play. but then again, it’s guardian we’re talking about, boons galore is their thing, so that adds some synergy between core guard and them.

• the healing trap really needs to be looked into. as it is, it’s completely useless because you’re relying on your opponent to trigger it for you. anyone with a ranged weapon and half a brain knows that, no matter how hard the dragonhunter hits from range, if they can’t heal themselves, they’re more likely to die than you are. my suggestion is either make the trap trigger on allies passing through (like healing spring), swap the two parts of the heal around (bulk of the heal on set-up, bonus heal on activation), or both. that would make me actually consider that trap over shelter or litany of wrath.

Karl McLain.5604:

Here’s a couple other updates that had been in the works and are now in testing.

• Vault: Reduced aftercast by 80ms. Added a 500ms evade at the start of the ability.
• Distracting Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Impairing Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Weakening Strikes: This trait now grants 10% damage reduction when being struck by a weakened foe, in addition to weakening foes on critical hit.

that’s gonna make vaulting in and out of fights much more reliable. thanks! (plz give us more range engis have 800 range on their targeted leap, so it’s not like we’ll break out of maps with it!)

don’t particularly care about projectile finishers, especially on thief (what am i going to do, blind more?), but it’s a nice touch for the sake of consistency. maybe when someone drops a fire field for you, you can throw impairing daggers for an extra 3 stacks of burn, on top of everything else.

like i mentioned last page, i’d have personally preferred 15%, as it would be closer to additive 10%, instead of multiplicative 10% (which totals to 7.5% total reduction), but i won’t complain. it’s still pretty strong.

hoping all the discussion on dust strike and debilitating arc isn’t lost on you

Dorian.8542:

Only thing i see an issue with is the damage on staff. It’s currently not a viable main weapon for pve or pvp, and with the utility of shortbow, staff cant be used there either. I’d suggest upping the damage on the auto attack (by a lot) and the skill 3. That, in addition to a rework for dust strike to be a dust (similar to smokescale) or dark field would make this a good weapon choice and add more purpose to the class itself, and thus more of a reason to run the spec.

damage on staff is fine. overtuned, even. it’s utility that is lacking on staff.

giving staff a smoke field would make it objectively better than black powder, and we really don’t need two skills that do the same thing. i’m perfectly fine with staff not getting any stealth, or even combo fields. that said, dust strike does need to affect enemies around the daredevil, not in front of him. especially since, you know, so much of the spec’s combat style keeps putting you with your back against the target (bound, vault, weakening charge).

as for skill 3, it doesn’t need damage. it needs something else though. i and a few others suggested daze. there’s also the interesting option (IMO) of moving the autoattack’s reflect to this skill, so you have more control over it (though i think i’d rather have the daze). some people want a follow-up skill that leaps you back, though if vault gets improved range (plz 900 range), i’d like to see instead this skill throwing you even further away.

style.6173:

As for thief, I’d just like to see one other change… trickster should remove 2 conditions.

i was thinking of picking trickster for my condi DD, and i was surprised to see that it’s only 1 condition. whole trait is probably balanced around withdraw and scorpion wire.

rangers can have 2 conditions (and fury, but that’s why it’s a GM trait), why can’t we? it’s pretty much the same trait >.>

PopeUrban.2578:

Necromancer Minions

them stealth necros be OP, yo.

:P

(though seriously, SRing a reaper right before the mid fight engagement will be ridiculously strong)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

acrobatics already has some interesting condi defense ideas. buff that instead to be our anti-condi line, give it some cool stuff. reward thieves in a way that doesn’t ask them to sit in stealth all day.

as for EA, i’d sooner remove the internal cooldown on it than make it on dodge, because at least then it would still be rewarding thoughtful play (and let’s face it, no one will just stop attacking a thief to keep them from condi clearing), but we all know that trait would be utterly broken with no ICD.

Michael.9517:

Kayji.4390:

Cool Stuff. And I prefer the second option ‘Receive less damage from weakened foes’. We need the damage mitigation.

we already receive reduced damage from weakend foes lol.

Trait would have to be receive no damage from foes to make that worth something, ore make it 50% chance to not crit, 25% damage reduction on hits that crit or something… i don’t know, its just not creative imo.

ok, let me do some quick math here.

weakness is 50% chance to do 50% damage. that means, on average, a weakened foe is hitting with 75% of their full strength.

the trait would be X% on top of that. with 10% damage from weakened foes, the number drops to 67.5%. 15% drops to ~64%, and 20% drops to 60%.

for reference, just in case someone is really bad at maths, 66.6% is 2/3.

that means that with weakness + 10% damage reduction, we’re shaving a whole third off of someone’s damage against you, and that stacks with protection and frost aura (which, granted, are two things thieves rarely get access to). that’s huge. i’d argue that the damage reduction should be 15%, because then it’s closer to “true 10%” reduction, rather than “10% on top of another percentage”.

but either way, my point is that damage reduction against weakened foes, even with low-ish percentages, is a massive thing, especially for a class that has such high weakness uptime.

Shirk.6421:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Shirk.6421:

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t understand why you’re asking for the stealth focused class to have less stealth, even though it doesn’t make enough of a difference to actually kill you.

Stealth should be a defensive mechanism, not something you stay in 24/7.

i think you’re mistaking thieves with condi mesmers. thieves have to get out of stealth before they can do anything to you.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQBVyyEabiNPBvnA7TcITU+tYM+Q+I0CvgePniAA-TFBZABFp+Di7PAjSQAU+RKAYWWB-w

are you seriously dying to that?

Toran.4230:

Edit:
One thing that came to my mind. The less damage from weakened enemys sure is nice….when you duel and spam #2 due it’s short weakening duration. As soon as there is another enemy tho your survivability goes against zero again since you can’t have both of them weakened at the same time.

. #2 is AoE, and the trait applies weakness on crit. also, it’s an adept trait, it’s supposed to be good, not a gamechanger :P

Shirk.6421:

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t understand why you’re asking for the stealth focused class to have less stealth, even though it doesn’t make enough of a difference to actually kill you.

Stealth should be a defensive mechanism, not something you stay in 24/7.

i think you’re mistaking thieves with condi mesmers. thieves have to get out of stealth before they can do anything to you.

Shirk.6421:

Add damage to traps. 20 would be enough. Just to reveal the thief when you run in in one of his traps while he just condibombs you while in stealth. The other classes using traps have to deal with the same thing, thieves shouldn’t get a greencard for that.

you do realize they literally just took damage out of traps because no one was taking them, since they were revealing the thief, and as such, negating any benefit that setting up, you know, a trap would give.

Shirk.6421:

corwen.5798:

Y call it a fix?! As soon as ur 20 damage is added to the traps, no thief will Play with traps anymore and then ur “fix” is an build killer leaving us with D/P once more…

Awww… then remove the damage from ranger traps aswell. Not being able to throw them anymore destroyed our trapper builds aswell. Im soooooooo sorry that could happen to you aswell. Not.

holy crap someone’s salty. and here i thought the community was finally done crying nerfs to thief, now that there’s nothing left to nerf. apparently there’s still a bug that lets you create a thief, they should fix that.

Brujeria.7536:

Karl McLain.5604:

• Reduced channel time of Channeled Vigor from 2.25 to 0.75
• Fist Flurry: Reduced cast time by 20%. note: The final strike occurs just prior to 1 second.

Havoc Master has taken its place, as we felt that the line could use a more guaranteed damage increase. For trait mods, we’d like to experiment with Weakening Strikes slightly, adding a secondary to it within its role of debilitation. Options we’re looking at it:

• Inflict X (torment, bleeding, something) when you weaken a foe.
  or
• Receive less damage from weakened foes.

Once again, thanks for your continued constructive feedback. It’s greatly appreciated.

-Karl

Do you really consider to buff Fist Flurry even even further? This already is the strongest, single utility skill in the entire game. It can potentially oneshot people if you land it correctly, comes with an inbuilt stun and armor ignoring damage. This skill is remotely overpowered in its current form, this buff will turn it further into a powercreep skill.

Same goes for the heal skill. Heal skills should have counterplay, heal skills should be used wisely at the right time and should proviide an opporturnity to counterplay, reducing the cast time slightly is okay, but this just turn the only single thief healing skill that has counterplay to it into another skill without much counterplay.

Also the defensive with weakening strikes is more then fitting. The spec is currently in a very good spot, it just goes a somewhat different route then the thief people are currently used to. By putting these changes into the game the Daredevil will be extremly OP by the time people starting to get used to, and mastering the spec.

why not, let’s reply to this.

fist flurry: if you get hit 5 times in the face without moving, and then get hit by a 6th attack, you deserve it. fist flurry brings nothing to the table other than raw damage, and the main effect of the skill is hidden behind a long channel that was almost impossible to land on anyone with half a brain. the skill is being made faster so that there’s actually a chance you’ll connect all kittens.

heal: this might shock you, but most healing skills in the game have either 0.75s or 1s cast time. in fact, there are some skills that have even shorter cast times (litany of wrath on guardian is a 0.25s cast time!). then you have the “counterplay” argument. well, shelter is a healing skill that can only be countered if you land unblockable CC on the guardian, because they’ll be blocking the full duration of the cast time. withdraw is an instant-cast heal that has evasion built into it. meanwhile, channeled vigor is a channeled skill, meaning if it’s interrupted at any point in those 0.75s, it will go on full cooldown with only half its effects applied, whereas all other heals, when interrupted, just go on a 5 second cooldown.

and no, it’s not about “learning to play” a new type of thief, because daredevil is mighty similar to another thief spec that was popular around 2014, the S/D evasion thief. no stealth, huge emphasis on evading, and the meta builds didn’t hit as hard then as they do now, so giving thief some much needed defensive options is very important.

docMed.7692:

BrunoBRS.5178:

well, one of their traps is bugged right now and it hits really, really hard, three times (that’s the bugged part). best part? it triggers on CC with the right adept trait. guess who has a shadowstep that also CCs?

translation: don’t use steal on dragonhunters if you have sleight of hand equipped.

Where did they confirm it was bugged? The trait indicates it hits multiple times (fragments) and does 1500 damage per fragment, with a chance to crit on each fragment. In order to hit hard with the trap it is based on +power, which means the DH has to run Mara and/or Berserker and then the DH also has to crit each hit (full zerk build can hit around 3.5k-5k per fragment on 100% glass targets depending on might stacks). The trap itself also has a 36 second CD (when traited).

here:

Karl McLain.5604:

The trap was bugged. It’s intended to strike enemies only once as it explodes and will be fixed.

of note, the “fragments of faith” are the little aegis thingies you can pick up after the explosion. it’s not a frag land mine.

moriz.5473:

BrunoBRS.5178:

it’s not redundant, it’s stacking defense on a profession that sorely needs more defense. if you’re more resilient against foes that have weakness, a condition that already tones down damage, then you’re very resilient. last thing daredevil needs is more damage modifiers

damage reduction in this game is multiplicative, which means diminishing returns. additional percentage damage reduction on something that already drastically reduces damage, means that the new damage reduction will have very little effect. as such, reduced damage from weakened foes not make the daredevil very resilient: it will have almost effect at all.

on the other hand, directly modifying the weakness condition on nearby foes to be more effective will lead to bigger damage reduction numbers, and since it is AoE, it also allows for more teamwork.

weakness only has a 50% chance to deal 50% damage, so it isn’t affected by your personal damage reduction even when it triggers. so yeah, a 5k crit that fumbles will hit for 2.5k, but with extra 10% damage reduction, for example, that’s 250 health that you saved yourself. in a single burst, it sounds like nothing, but you keep shaving damage from weakness and damage reduction, it adds up, much like shadow’s embrace’s 300 health ticks.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

The staff Punishing Strikes… While reflecting projectiles seems great it’s hardly useful since you can’t exactly time it or keep itnup to actually reflect important deadly missiles coming your way aside from hugging your opponent and auto attacking and getting this skill to acrivate during such a fluke would be just that. The access is just more of a nuisance as it is a small goal.

i completely forgot about that. reflect projectiles on a melee autoattack makes little sense. can’t get to the third attack on the chain while your opponent is at range, and if you’re in melee range, it’s very unlikely that your opponent is still using a ranged weapon.

that reflect could be put somewhere else (another candidate for making debilitating arc a more interesting skill!), or just thrown away altogether, and the third strike could get something else. i kinda wanna say “give it a block, like how ranger greatsword has evade”, but the animation is a bit too long, so it might be too strong, unless the animation is shortened or the effect put out of sync (obviously the latter option is just plain bad).

Serious Thought.5394:

Weakness reduces physical damage. Make it reduce CONDITION damage, and that trait becomes so amazing its not even funny. Everyone would love you.

what about “gain resistance when you apply weakness”? like, short resistance, and on an ICD, so it’s not broken, but i think adding condi-defense through weakness application is really interesting.