Guild Wars 2

Lazaar.9123:

Well, on topic, my personal advice would not be to use words like “required” or “forced”, as that will only be responded with negativity.

segman.3560:

Bryzy.2719:

Another question for you guys (again this is all postulation and “what if?”, not what I personally want):

What would you make of it, if Anet did release content with HoT that was more challenging and different to current PvE content to the extent that it required these build variations within teams for it to be completed successfully? In other words, if it forced the playerbase to think more about how they should be supporting their team mates in combat, more-so than their damage output and individually trying to stay alive? This is just one example scenario; others could perhaps make players focus on pure damage output. What would the community make of such an addition (I won’t say “change” as it would be entirely new content).

I always welcome more challenging content and if you don’t know, whole “zerk meta badkittens” likes to conquer new obstackles.

However I don’t believe they can force players to split on roles because there is no reason for it. We can already support each other while also dealing damage so why should my friend guardian stand still and cast buffs while I’m dealing damage when we can do it together with good build composition?

The game would need a whole skills and traits revamp and I don’t believe this is going to happen.

Okay, put in a different way – scrapping the “required” element as that’s clearly not going to fly:

How would you perceive it if it was more efficient to complete the new content by using more diverse builds that encouraged team support instead?

Lazaar.9123:

Isn’t this just the exact same topic of your other thread that was locked?

Nah, that one was more specific to support builds, and in that thread I was expressing my own opinion as to what I wanted to see in the game. This thread’s purpose is to gain an understanding of what profession systems could be in the game, and how those theoretical systems would be perceived by the community. No opinion from OP.

Also, that thread wasn’t locked because of the topic. It was locked because of the heated debate that was started by respondents. Kindly refrain from bringing any ad hominem or aggravating posts into this one.

Another question for you guys (again this is all postulation and “what if?”, not what I personally want):

What would you make of it, if Anet did release content with HoT that was more challenging and different to current PvE content to the extent that it required these build variations within teams for it to be completed successfully? In other words, if it forced the playerbase to think more about how they should be supporting their team mates in combat, more-so than their damage output and individually trying to stay alive? This is just one example scenario; others could perhaps make players focus on pure damage output. What would the community make of such an addition (I won’t say “change” as it would be entirely new content).

Bear with me on this one, because I’m not even sure if it makes sense myself yet…

• DISCLAIMER: this is NOT a thread asking for trinity or for any other changes to the current game, so anti-trinity flamelords please cool your keyboards. This is just a speculation thread, and I very much enjoy playing GW2 as it is. Therefore, please don’t comment saying “there will never be trinity” or “go play WoW” – I’m not asking for trinity, I’m just postulating ideas/theories. -*

So “trinity”, in my understanding, is the game mechanic in an MMO which means that you choose a certain profession or class depending on which role you want to play – DPS/Tank/Healer. You are then stuck to that role. You may be able to try other roles as that profession, but you would be inefficient in performing it: for example, a cleric/sage character trying to perform a DPS role.

Currently, Guild Wars 2 has an excellent combat and profession build system which means you can play almost any playstyle you want with any given profession, and have the free ability to change round quickly between builds. However, what the game doesn’t currently have (I repeat – this is not a request for change – just observation) as far as I can tell is content that may require some players in a team to alter their builds to fulfill certain roles in a team – e.g. some players may need to change to support-focusing builds so that every member of the team can stay alive.

Now this sounds like trinity, I know, because it would be a requirement of tank/heal-support/DPS elements within the game. But is it? Referring to my definition of trinity (as I understand it) – trinity means you are STUCK in that role for your whole game experience. But in GW2, you wouldn’t be. Given the profession/build system, you would have the choice as to whether or not you were the member of the team who became the tank or the DPSer, for example.

What if all that had to change for these roles to be created was future PvE content? The reason these postulations are in my head is due to the devs discussing how there would be “much more challenging PvE content” with the release of HoT, alongside the creation of profession specialisations, which I imagine will create more disparity between professions/builds. What if new content was challenging to the extent that, to complete it in the most quick and efficient way, some members of the team would be required to play certain builds in order to adjust the damage:support ratio? Current content is good in that it allows you to build your character (easier or harder depending on your profession) with almost maximum damage output while have some baseline survival skills like dodging, aegis, etc. But those survival skills are baseline. What if this new content is so challenging that players will have to adapt their builds for either themselves or their teams, because baseline survival techniques will be insufficient to stay alive?

Again, I’m not “hoping for this to happen” – I’m speculating as to whether people would consider this “trinity”, a welcome concept in the game, something that is already in place (i.e. content that I haven’t thought of and therefore this thread is pointless lol), or something that would be bad for the game. I guess to summarise, it would be a kind of “optional trinity”, but a very hazy version of “trinity”. Now that I’ve confused myself thoroughly, does this make sense to anyone or am I just tired and need a nap?

In my opinion, elements of trinity (read: not full trinity) make an MMO much better and more fulfilling to play.

Having the option to fulfill a certain role in some team-based content appeals greatly to me – it’s that sense of “I’m an important part of this challenge – I need to perform this role well”. I don’t feel that there is currently quite enough of that in GW2 because of the lack of disparity between professions, and the lack of challenging content that requires more players to focus on supporting roles for example.

This new HoT update, I am hoping, will add some disparity with the new profession specialisations. I do not think Anet are leaning towards trinity with this expansion, however I do believe they want to create more viable build options for each profession. Anet have also said that there will be more challenging PvE content with this expansion, which might suggest that they are going to tie in profession specialisation abilities with new tactics for tackling this content – i.e. a greater sense of playing a role. But that’s just speculation.

The combat and profession build system in GW2 is excellent. The fact that you can swap around traits, equipment and utilities so easily means you can play any style you want to play. I think this excellence would be made more excellent given a little more sense of “playing-a-role” for each build.

Substance E.4852:

Bryzy.2719:

McWolfy.5924:

I hope they will change our class mechanism

They will add a new class mechanic for each specialisation, yes so don’t worry :P

EDIT: or thoroughly change the existing ones, I forget which…

Druids are just as big into ‘Animal Companions’ as Rangers in most games; often more so. I really wouldn’t hold your breathes.

Yeah well we know from the trailer at least that druids will still be using the pets, but one of the devs definitely said the mechanic will be different between the druid and the ranger. I’m not sure how different but hopefully we’ll get more info soon, ‘cos I’m on tenterhooks here…

segman.3560:

Bryzy.2719:

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

Kordash.2197:

“REQUIRES ZERKER BUILDS FOR IT TO BE COMPLETED MOST EFFICIENTLY.”

You don’t seem to understand : Zerker is mandatory ONLY IF you want optimal time. Don’t care about that ? Fine, you can play whatever you want.

Yes, and my want for different, challenging PvE content would make BUILD VARIETY mandatory ONLY if you wanted optimal time.

Understand yet?

In case you don’t, I’ll give you an example.

1. New tough boss vs. all zerk players = all dead players
2. New tough boss vs. zerk players + support-focused players = alive DPSers with added damage and support from the support-focused players.

No. 2 is the most optimal.

But thats not how it is now
1 all zerkers boss down in 5 mins
2 mix and match boss down bettwen 6-15 mins

How is your way better when it makes so all cant complete content?

Answer its not
you want to change meta to lock out one playstyle maybe more depending on how focused you need those support players

Do you not see your own hypocrisy? The current meta currently locks out all other players who aren’t zerk.

another proof for moderator – this is another bash the zerkers thread

Even if it were a ‘bash the zerkers thread’ – which it isn’t – why the heck shouldn’t I be allowed to have my own opinion on the topic? I repeat: you have the mindset of “if you don’t agree with me then you should be silenced”. It’s fundamentally wrong.

Kordash.2197:

Bryzy.2719:

Kordash.2197:

Yet again, you are asking for a system with roles, that the game design want to avoid. It’s in the core.

It’s impossible to get roles here. Asking for it is pointless.

Except the core of this expansion is creating new roles for each profession. An MMO without even a small element of roles is worthless as a game.

Remember what MMORPG stands for? Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING game.

You don’t know that. No proofs. Speculations only here. I don’t know what it will really be, i look forward to it.
Role Playing have nothing to do with the gameplay of the game.

If you’d watched the expansion announcement, you would have seen the Devs discuss ‘creating new roles for each profession’.

Sigh.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bryzy.2719:

1. New tough boss vs. all zerk players = all dead players
2. New tough boss vs. zerk players + support-focused players = alive DPSers with added damage and support from the support-focused players.

I’ll start to think you are trolling. THIS HAPPEN ALREADY IN THE GAME. And here what happen.

New tough boss vs all zerk player =
1) Bad zerk player die and finish the boss in range.
2) Good zerk player die, learn, then finish the boss in melee.

So rename it ZerkWars2.

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

Kordash.2197:

“REQUIRES ZERKER BUILDS FOR IT TO BE COMPLETED MOST EFFICIENTLY.”

You don’t seem to understand : Zerker is mandatory ONLY IF you want optimal time. Don’t care about that ? Fine, you can play whatever you want.

Yes, and my want for different, challenging PvE content would make BUILD VARIETY mandatory ONLY if you wanted optimal time.

Understand yet?

In case you don’t, I’ll give you an example.

1. New tough boss vs. all zerk players = all dead players
2. New tough boss vs. zerk players + support-focused players = alive DPSers with added damage and support from the support-focused players.

No. 2 is the most optimal.

But thats not how it is now
1 all zerkers boss down in 5 mins
2 mix and match boss down bettwen 6-15 mins

How is your way better when it makes so all cant complete content?

Answer its not
you want to change meta to lock out one playstyle maybe more depending on how focused you need those support players

Do you not see your own hypocrisy? The current meta currently locks out all other players who aren’t zerk.

Kordash.2197:

Yet again, you are asking for a system with roles, that the game design want to avoid. It’s in the core.

It’s impossible to get roles here. Asking for it is pointless.

Except the core of this expansion is creating new roles for each profession. An MMO without even a small element of roles is worthless as a game.

Remember what MMORPG stands for? Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING game.

segman.3560:

As mentioned right at the beginning – this is yet another “zerk meta sucks” thread.

I hope a moderator comes here, reads some of your brilliant ideas and closes the thread.

I’m sorry that you’ve chosen to read into in that way. In no point in this thread have I criticised zerk builds. What I have criticised however is the lack of viability for other builds in the game in comparison. Again, more forum-fascism from a person who doesn’t like an opinion that is different to his so wants the thread closed.

Kordash.2197:

“REQUIRES ZERKER BUILDS FOR IT TO BE COMPLETED MOST EFFICIENTLY.”

You don’t seem to understand : Zerker is mandatory ONLY IF you want optimal time. Don’t care about that ? Fine, you can play whatever you want.

Yes, and my want for different, challenging PvE content would make BUILD VARIETY mandatory ONLY if you wanted optimal time.

Understand yet?

In case you don’t, I’ll give you an example.

1. New tough boss vs. all zerk players = all dead players
2. New tough boss vs. zerk players + support-focused players = alive DPSers with added damage and support from the support-focused players.

No. 2 is the most optimal.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Bryzy.2719:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

And now OP shows that hes QQing about zerker gear, and is completely unable to listen to reason or explanation of how support IS used.

Yet another thread that needs locking.

And here we have fascism in it’s purest form.

Straw-manning followed by,

“Agree with my opinion or be silent.”

lol. Keep up the personal attacks and watch how fast you lose ability to post.

Personal attacks? I’m sorry, where? Now you’re simply lying.

Oh and threats? That’s a nice touch too.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

And now OP shows that hes QQing about zerker gear, and is completely unable to listen to reason or explanation of how support IS used.

Yet another thread that needs locking.

And here we have forum-fascism in it’s purest form.

Here, we see this person – having not listened to my repetition of “I’m not trying to make zerkers weaker or less viable” – straw-manning followed by:

“Agree with my opinion or be silent.”

Thaddeus.4891:

Bryzy.2719:

Different, harder content (read: not ALL future content) = more OPTIMAL for there to be variety in team builds. e.g. a boss that a full zerk team couldn’t take out else they’d all die would require variety in builds for support.

I already said it higher in the tread. Fractal level 80 without agony resistance was in the game at one point. You can’t really make harder than that and still ppl were playing zerker with meta build. They learned every single attack, they took the same support we have today and just optimized their use of it, like they optimized their use of dodge and active defense. So what you asking for is great, harder content is YEAH gimme more. But it wouldn’t change stuff the way you think it would. What you are asking already happen in the game and it didn’t do what you think it would. It’s not speculation, it ALREADY HAPPEN. Harder content = better management of your support while in zerker gear, not new support oriented build.

So what then is the point of any build and/or gear that isn’t optimised towards being zerk? Anet might as well just delete all non-zerk stuff from the game?

Kordash.2197:

You don’t want variety, you want your idea to be required. Not quite the same thing.

And i’ll repeat myself again : Meta = Optimal, and Optimal mean ONLY ONE. Everything else is VIABLE. And that’s fine. And you can’t change that. It’s not something humans can change (maybe in a thousand years ?)

Variety is already here and it’s up to you to use it. You want to be the fastest possible, without doing what’s required to do so. A bit of a paradox to say the least ?

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Read my thread title. Nothing about ‘requirement’ at all.

Different, harder content (read: not ALL future content) = more OPTIMAL for there to be variety in team builds. e.g. a boss that a full zerk team couldn’t take out else they’d all die would reward variety in builds for support. Conversely, a boss with a billion hp but relatively weak offensive output would be optimal for a full zerk team to wipe most quickly.

ADDING DIFFERENCES IN PVE CONTENT = CHANGING THE METAS = VARIETY.

I’m not sure how I can spell this out any more clearly??

EDIT: also, it’s contradictory in that you criticise someone for apparently wanting ‘required’ roles for new content, when the current gameplay REQUIRES ZERKER BUILDS FOR IT TO BE COMPLETED MOST EFFICIENTLY.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Does HoT Requires base game?

I mean:
If I would like to buy a game at expac release for my friend with expac already included – do I have to buy both gw2 and HoT or HoT alone will do it?

yes you need the base GW2 game for HoT to work.

Kordash.2197:

Bryzy.2719:

thefantasticg.3984:

Bryzy.2719:

So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

I disagree. From what I’ve gathered it looks like they are just filling in holes that were left from when they originally designed the classes. It looks like this Staff Druid is going to fill the missing AOE/CC that was missing from Rangers. Hammer Engie looks like it’s going to fill the missing melee weapon from it. I’d say Anet is just making all classes more rounded by adding the Specializations… And, if you ask me, Specializations look like they’re aimed at WvW or PVP rather than PVE, but no way to be sure until all the details are out.

But… Guess what… If the goal of the pve event/instance is to kill something… well… DPS is still going to be King. Suck it up. Grow a pair. GET TO KILLING STUFF AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!

“Learn to like my gameplay style and only that style, otherwise kitten off”

Nice.

The same apply to you.

Nope. I’m not petitioning to make zerkers LESS viable (as I’ve said, I play 4 of my 5 characters with zerk builds). I’m petitioning to add more VARIETY and viable options to gameplay. I want more diversity. I want different builds to be equally as viable as zerker in some content.

Q: Will the new HoT PvE content give a greater sense of value to those players who enjoy playing more support-based roles over the current zerker meta?

thefantasticg.3984:

Bryzy.2719:

So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

I disagree. From what I’ve gathered it looks like they are just filling in holes that were left from when they originally designed the classes. It looks like this Staff Druid is going to fill the missing AOE/CC that was missing from Rangers. Hammer Engie looks like it’s going to fill the missing melee weapon from it. I’d say Anet is just making all classes more rounded by adding the Specializations… And, if you ask me, Specializations look like they’re aimed at WvW or PVP rather than PVE, but no way to be sure until all the details are out.

But… Guess what… If the goal of the pve event/instance is to kill something… well… DPS is still going to be King. Suck it up. Grow a pair. GET TO KILLING STUFF AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!

“Learn to like my gameplay style and only that style, otherwise kitten off”

Nice.

McWolfy.5924:

I hope they will change our class mechanism

They will add a new class mechanic for each specialisation, yes so don’t worry :P

EDIT: or thoroughly change the existing ones, I forget which…

Frightlight.3796:

Engineer-Technophile just look up the meaning makes sense

Best one I’ve heard for Engineers yet.

Lmfao, when I saw Engineers got hammers, the best I could come up with was ‘joiner’ :’)

Here’s a list of all profession specialisation chains taken from Grand Fantasia. Take your pick of preferred name choice!

Fighter → warrior → berserker/paladin → warlord/templar → deathknight/crusader

Hunter → archer → ranger/assassin → sharpshooter/darkstalker → hawkeye/windshadow

Spellcaster → mage → wizard/necromancer → archmage/demonologist → avatar/shadowlord

Acolyte → priest → cleric/sage → prophet/mystic → saint/shaman

May I just direct everyone towards the fact that Anet are creating SPECIALISATIONS with HoT??

That in itself says they recognise the fact that there needs to be disparity between professions and role-taking in the game for it to be fun to play. So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

Absolutely zero trinity will never happen in any MMO. The linear gameplay that GW2 has right now with its PvE set-up advocating a single meta is BORING. Plain and bloody simple. There’s no meta diversity, no variation and no tactical thought. Just mindless zergs of #MaxZerkOmg players running around seeing who can do the most damage.

^ What psizone said. There is a LOT of balance to be considered in what is essentially adding 8 new sub-professions. There will be more than one specialisation, however as OP has already recognised, these will arrive intermittently with future updates.

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

Why, what do your way do better then the current way?
Now all can do the content not as fast mind you but all can.
After your things are implemented all cant do content since they have to be this this and that or they will fail automaticly.

Just like everyone else, you’re making false conclusions out of what I’m saying.

I’m not saying people HAVE to be FULL support or FULL healer or FULL tank to clear the new content. That WOULD be trinity. What I’m saying is that to make for less linear and more diverse gameplay, there needs to be a greater need for support aspects of CURRENT builds. At this point in time, all that needs to happen to clear content is for there to be a big old group of zerker-specced players doing max damage as quickly as they can. It’s mindless content. There’s no skill involved; no teamwork. It’s BORING.

timmyf.1490:

Zerker gear and support are not mutually exclusive. I think a lot of us thought, initially, that you chose between the “new trinity” of damage, control, and support. In reality, it works best if EVERY player focuses on ALL THREE of those.

All players should deal good damage.

All players should have control skills and know when to use them.

All players should bring support skills to help their teammates.

Support is a VERY important part of this game now, and asking for a larger role for support is a pretty clear indicator that you don’t have a deep understanding of how the game works. That’s fine, not everybody needs to have a PhD in GW2… but that’s why you get all these responses you don’t like.

It’s sort of like saying football would be better if you could just run the ball because I’m tired of all this passing and I like playing running back.

It’s not about answers I ’don’t like’, it’s about answers that are illogical or miss my point.

I agree that it would work best if players focused on all three of what you stated; I agree with your philosophy. But your philosophy isn’t how it is in the game.

What if the meta of this game was support-focused builds, and I was a zerk player who posted this thread asking for a more rewarding experience for zerker players? You would be saying the same to me as what you’ve just said now.

The reality is the most viable way of clearing current content is with full zerk teams.

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Simply put: there don’t need to be changes to builds and skills. Adding content that is much more challenging will create different metas by itself.

Brahmincorle.1264:

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

The pessimist in me thinks this will probably be the case…

Thaddeus.4891:

Support is as big in this game as dps. Maybe its not the kind of support you want but most profession have support meta build and even dps meta build have quit a good amount of support.

Protection, Weakness, Vulnerability, Might, Fury, Vigor, Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Condition Removal, etc. Some are underused, and the content is not hard enough so we don’t really need to go too strong in the support, but support is still super important in most dungeon/fractals. But i’m curious because you seem reasonable, what kind of support you would want more? Give precise example pls.

Please read EDIT 2 in my original post.

Kordash.2197:

Ah yeah, and by the way, the support is actually insanely strong in the game. Giving more value to it will only make it easier for everyone, and reduce the challenge.

I’m not sure you understand what I mean by ‘giving more value to’ support (just purely going off what you said there, so I could be mistaken). I don’t mean support skills/builds need buffs or changes. By ‘more value’ I mean that those existing builds that put more focus on support aspects are more rewarding/useful than they currently are. In other words, adding different PvE content may change the need for certain builds in players tackling it.

Again, this is just going off what you said there. You say that giving more value to support would ‘only make it easier for everyone’ (which is why I think you’ve misunderstood what I meant by ‘value’), but then surely if that were the case there would be a much bigger support build meta than there currently is, since people tend to play in the most efficient manner – i.e. the meta. If having more support meant more efficiency as you stated, then it would be in the meta right now.

My postulation is that, what if HoT creates new PvE content that is much more challenging than current PvE content (which is what the devs have said will happen), and that then creates a greater need for those people who focus on support builds? Again, for clarity – I’m not talking about buffing or changing support-optimisation builds that already exist – I’m talking about new PvE content rewarding those support builds just as much as it currently rewards the efficiency of the DPS meta.

Kordash.2197:

Bryzy.2719:

@Dawdler @Kordash @Terrahero

I’m sorry but just where are all these ridiculous ‘oh god he wants trinity’ assumptions coming from? I can’t facepalm hard enough. Im NOT TRYING TO CHANGE BUILDS OR GAME STRUCTURE. I’m trying to add CHOICE for CURRENT build options. Sigh…

You’re not asking for CHOICE. You are asking for content to REQUIRE a certain gameplay/build.

I take your point, I would revise my thread title (if I could..) as it doesn’t reflect what I’m trying to ask. Instead of saying ‘demand’ I should say ‘give more value to’. The game has very little variation in how teammates interact with each other. I have no problems with rolling full zerk, but some professions can offer far more team support than others while being full zerk.

Lazaar.9123:

So, as we can see, this is another zerker meta thread in a poor disguise.

Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say it’s not?? For gods sake 4 out of 5 of my characters are full zerk!

@Dawdler @Kordash @Terrahero

I’m sorry but just where are all these ridiculous ‘oh god he wants trinity’ assumptions coming from? I can’t facepalm hard enough. Im NOT TRYING TO CHANGE BUILDS OR GAME STRUCTURE. I’m trying to add CHOICE for CURRENT build options. Sigh…

segman.3560:

Bryzy.2719:

segman.3560:

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Way to lower the tone with that last comment.

In response, I would say that not every profession is a viable supporter while in full or high DPS builds. I’m therefore guessing you’re a warrior.

You’re also clearly an advocate of the DPS-is-best meta movement, so I doubt I’d get very far with you given that you clearly prefer that single style of gameplay.

P.S. nerf zerker, remove zerker, ban everyone with at least one zerker gear piece – nothing is going to change, because out of the limbo new meta will emerge and trust me it won’t be trinity “lf healer” carebear meta

again, you’re proving you’re difficult to argue with logically because you’re creating false assumptions about my agenda. You assume I’m a part of the “errmahgerrddd nerf Zerk!” Brigade when in fact I enjoy playing zerk builds as much as the next man. I’m an advocate of CHOICE and VARIATION. I don’t want to change the structure of your beloved game, I want to add to it.

As you’ve just admitted, you’re also an advocate of a single meta, which is wrong in too many ways to list.

Doctor Faustus.6372:

Bryzy.2719:

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

You know that almost every class ingame has it’s own way to support a team at the moment? Support does not always mean that you have to support in a defensive way.

Warrior: Offensive Support (Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, For great Justice!, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength)

Ranger: Offensive Support (Frost Spirit, Spotter), Defensive Support (Healing-Spring)

Thief: Stealth.

Elementalist: Offensive Support (Fury & Mightstacking)

Guardian: Defensive Support (Aegis, Protection, Reflect, Absorb)

Mesmer: Defensive Support (Reflect), Portals

Every class has it’s own way to support a group right now. Noone needs a full Support class…

You’re right. But missing the point.

The support offered by each profession in the current PvE full DPS meta builds is enough for CURRENT content. What I want is additional content that is challenging enough to warrant players using builds that maximise what they can get out of their support role.

This wouldn’t diminish the need for DPS, so all you #MaxDmg fanboys can rest easy if that’s what you prefer to play, but it opens up another viable play style option for the rest of us.

segman.3560:

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Way to lower the tone with that last comment.

In response, I would say that not every profession is a viable supporter while in full or high DPS builds. I’m therefore guessing you’re a warrior.

You’re also clearly an advocate of the DPS-is-best meta movement, so I doubt I’d get very far with you given that you clearly prefer that single style of gameplay.

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

EDIT: since there are clearly many ‘passionate’ zerker meta advocates out there who are incredibly quick to jump to the defence of their play style and make assumptions about the agenda of this thread, in order to avoid further illogical, assumptive and aggressive comments, I’d like to clear up that this ISNT an anti-zerk-meta thread. This is a thread seeking to gain an answer as to whether or not there will be options for players who would like to try support roles to be just as viable in team PvE environments.

EDIT 2: just to add my definition of ‘support builds’ for clarity: a support build being a player who has built their character in a way that either maximises or increases focus on the usefulness of their support skills. It’s NOT to say that their one single role in a team is to provide heals and buffs.

Shadelang.3012:

HotHit.6783:

The druids had a “caretaker of maguuma” feel at times. So I’m hoping that suggests party support and not another control weapon, exactly what I want to get for my ranger. I might just be misremembering the druids for the benefit of my hopes for Heart of Thorns.

I wouldnt say your misremembering. But druids in most games have three roles. First is Selfless buffer: Precast long duration buffs outside of combat and use really strong short duration buffs on other players DURING combat.

SelfISH buffer: Precast buffs on yourself and use active buffs on yourself to cause extremely high single target damage for a short time. In many games fighting a druid with all of his buffs on was considered an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Edit: Example. In neverwinter nights 2 there is a prestige class called a storm caller. Most storm callers were druids. They had the ability to give themselves EXTREMELY powerful buffs which made them almost impossible to fight at clonse range. Having someone who could strip buffs or perform illusion based skills were almost mandatory to countering them.

Control Supporter: Using a mixture of defensive cooldowns and control skills druids in other games have some of the BEST crowd control in the game. Being able to effectively hold multiple targets for short times on short cooldowns. Skilled druids could hold down multiple key targets in pvp (sleeping the healer. rooting the peeler. And slowing the dpsers.) all while being tanky/sneaky enough to get away with it.

Im not saying this games druid will be like ANY of them. Thats just what ive seen them used as in most fantasy games that had the archetype.

I very much agree with this.

A good while ago (maybe 5ish years now?) I played an mmo called Grand Fantasia. The game as a whole was pleb as anything, but the class system and combat was incredibly fun to play (Check out ‘grand Fantasia classes’ on Google to get an idea of what you could become).

Anyway, I played an acolyte which later specialised into a sage and then a mystic, which was the Druid equivalent. Gameplay as a sage was incredibly diverse. In normal human form you could heal, buff, and self-buff, as well as being offensive. On the other side, you could unlock different animals that you could transform into (e.g. Stealth wolf for DPS gameplay, eagle for mobility and support, and gorilla for tanking and support). It’s been so long since I played that they’ve probably added way more content since. Although it’s by no means a top level mmo, I think the gw2 team could take a lot from what each class can do on that game. Gw2 in comparison offers a limited amount of skills per profession.

Ahh sweet, now I don’t have to make another ranger!

In other words, if I choose to become a Druid am I permanently stuck with those mechanics?

Engineers get hammers, eh? What’s the specialisation gunna be called, Joiner? :’)

Just another Druid thread to speculate on utilities and staff (and potentially existing, if they change them too) weapon skills for the specialisation. What would you really like to see?

I’d personally love either a staff skill or a utility that allowed you to teleport to your pet or swap places with it, similar to a necro… Either that or some kind of other blink teleport skill. I’d also love to see the ‘aspect of the pet’ forum idea come to fruition with Druids.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Would just to point out that throwing “l2p” in their face isn’t going to help the matter any either. If they are already being kittens, you don’t need to add fuel to the fire. Just turn off wsper or stick them on ignore.

No, you can’t change human nature. That’s so very true. But you don’t need to be a kitten in return either.

What? Since when did I say anything about telling anyone to “L2P”? Don’t add words to my thread that aren’t there.

We don’t necessarily need a new class. It would be nice, sure – but it needn’t be so complex.

Simply giving each profession access to just one weapon they previously couldn’t use (and please don’t say rifle for Rangers – we want staff not a stoopid blunderbuss :P) would be enough to create a hell of a lot more build diversity and playstyles.

Additionally, giving traits their much-needed fixing and rearranging would make this even better.

Mental Paradox.3845:

Besides saying “L2P”, what is the point of this thread?

You’ll never change human nature.

It’s something I wanted to get off my chest. As this is a forum for GW2 WvW ‘Discussion’ I thought I’d come here to discuss associated thoughts. If it incurs no discussion or it’s deemed a waste of forum space then I’m sure a moderator will remove it.

AMAdictus.7245:

I love hanging out in Lion’s Arch but I loathe 95% of the map chat.

I block everyone (Yes, everyone) who talks about non-gw2 related stuff, links items and rant, on /say and /map chat. I don’t want to disable my /say and /map chat because I like helping people that needs help with something (killing X, doing Y jumping puzzle etc.).

I block everyone who annoys me even by a teeny tiny bit. For me, it’s easier to just block them rather than having to deal with their kittens. It makes my life easier and more peaceful.

I have around 2000+ people in my block list and it keeps growing every single day.

I really hate how I always get teamed up with 4 genius players running around the map fighting and dies off point in PvP.

Whenever I died to condi-users multiple times in PvP, I will rebuild my class to a condi build for the next few games and complains how filthy and easy it is to play a no-brain build while 1v2ing everyone easily on point.

Lastly, I don’t care about your opinions.

Cheers.

I bet you’ll be a barrel of laughs at Christmas

#JustSayin’

I’m probably not the only one who has noticed this trend in angry whispers from players (in WvW)…

Those playing thieves have always been the worst culprits (in my experiences, at least) for sending incredibly rude, aggressive whispers or party invites if you kill them in WvW (usually in a 1v1 or similar scenario). However more recently I have also been receiving angry comments from d/d cele eles.

My guess behind this is that the person who chose to play that profession/build did so because they were expecting to be able to rek face when fighting other players in duels or small group fights. So of course when you beat them they become incredibly frustrated at the fact that they were the ones who died, when clearly their character is #ultimateh4x0rOwnage and you must have cheated or been a noob in some way.

Anyway, I assume this is the same case with the rise of the d/d cele ele too – people take this build expecting to be able to beat anyone, therefore getting mad kitten when they don’t. This is something I really, really dislike about the community. It unveils quite a toxic vein of people who play the game.