Guild Wars 2

Surprise, surprise, Scarlet is a Mary-Sue. Who would have thought. The storylines get worse and worse with every update. Nothing new. I sure hope Ree and Jeff are working on something big to make up for this mess.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Human gods are just incredibly powerful wizards.

Just as Mursaat. Didn’t stop the humans from calling them gods. It’s really just a matter of perspective.

One of my Norn looks like Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince of Bel Air… and is named Uncle Phil. Haven’t played him much yet, mostly spvp, but I really only made him to reserve the name anyway. :P

There is a resemblance between the two, but I’d rather say that, if anything, Anise is Livias daughter, mostly due to the fact that Livia was a necromancer, not a Mesmer.

And no, “May Grenth keep you safe.” is not an indication that she is a necromancer, it’s simply saying that she wishes you to stay alive, since Grenth is the god of the dead, so he decides if he takes you or not. If he keeps you save, you don’t die; it’s as easy as that.

Thalador.4218:

Here’s the writing team’s thought process behind picking Nolani for the location of the Thorn crypt (told this to Konig last night):

“Hey, we need a crypt for this Krytan madman… any ideas?”
“Well, it can’t be in Kryta; we’ve used all crypts there…”
Dying whisper of reason: Majesty’s Resssst
“HEY! Let’s put him in Nolani! It’s empty! Not like we’re ever gonna use it for something epic and mindblowing!”
“Awesome! Bloody Prince Thorn entombed in a hidden reliquary of the Krytan Thorn family in Ascalon’s most prominent mage-training institution! It makes sooo much sense!”

Did you eavesdrop or something? That’s too accurate.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

No, no XD. The interviewers suggested it may have been a crossover in the question.

Yeah I know the interview, that was however the feeling I got from the answer back then. It feels like they just came up with it on the spot, which is why “they can’t tell us very much”. I’m 100% sure the level designer put those sculptures in because he thought they looked cool, not for any lore reason whatsoever. They dance around the question and then finally setting on it “maybe” being a crossover area.
Not that it couldn’t be in south ascalon, on the border to the crystal desert, which could of course hold elonian influence (it’s not like elonians haven’t tried to settle there), I’m just saying that the sculptures looking elonian does not mean they are elonian, they could simply be made in elonian style. Drax question is the more correct way to talk about it, since he said they “look elonian”, not that they are.
And the answer Anet gave on this, is not definite, it’s more like giving possible explanations, so I think we shouldn’t go around and tell people it’s a mixture of two cultures yet.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

@BuddhaKeks It was a question in the latest GuildMag interview. The interviewees really went out of their way to avoid answering the question, but in the process it came up that “Maybe there is a place that had that Elonian Ascalonian crossover area.” Mind you, none of them actually said that that’s what Aquatic Ruins is, or gave any concrete explanation of what Aquatic Ruins is, so take that with a grain of salt.

Sounds more like they thought “oh those nerds and their stupid questions…” and they said “yeah yeah it’s like… uhhh… a crossover. Yeah that’s what it is!” :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• Aquatic Fractal is implied to be a mixture of two historical scenes – one of Ascalon, one of Elona.

Why a mixture? The statues look similar to what is common in Elona, however that does not mean they are elonian. Early greek sculptures for example look very much like egyptian sculptures, that’s just cultural influence. Is there anything else in this fractals that leads you to believe that it is in part elonian?

draxynnic.3719:

Part of that may also be that it’s the elderly that have both the money and the time to do things like go and see the pyramids. Having both at once is a difficult thing to do these days unless you’ve retired after a successful career or you’re a 1%er.

I don’t know how it is in the states, but it’s actually pretty cheap to go from europe to egypt. And you see a lot of mid-twenties to forties, but they rather hang out at the beach than go and see the sights.

Drakkon.4782:

Ask 100 students in America today who won the French-Indian War, you’re as likely to get “France/the French”, “the Indians” as “the Confederacy”. History isn’t something people care about, even if they should. Ancient History is even worse. Give it another hundred years, particularly under conservative rule, and you’ll see history remanded to pockets of outcasts who cling to it like monks hanging onto scripture. Yes, it’s sad, but the practical day to day concerns of simply existing outweigh most people’s need to know where they came from. It only takes 2 generations for a community to go from well educated to culturally starved. America is in its second generation. Gen X saw the first dip in standard of living, living worse off than their parents, and Gen Y has seen the cultural divide between those with money/power and those without grow wider than it did during the Dark Ages, and for much the same reason.

You spend time arguing over what’s happening in a game, and how it shouldn’t happen at all, and all the while it’s happening in the real world all around you. It’s hardly a mystery as to how a culture can forget it’s heritage so quickly. America’s history is being re-written as we speak. It can happen. It has happened. It is happening right now.

As sad as it makes me as a historian, this is true. Well not quite as harsh in Germany, for the simple reason that ignoring the past would make you highly suspicious over here, for obvious reasons (and in some cases it’s even a punishable crime).
Though I also noticed a trend that people actually start caring about the middle ages all of the sudden. Mostly expressed in going to renaissance fairs. Those are of course a theme park version of the middle ages, having about as much accuracy as the average 3 year old describing the string theory, but atleast they get people interested in finding out more. I think the rise of fantasy in the second half of the 20th century is the reason for this newly found interest.

Besides that, there are still enough people who travel to countries like egypt not only for sunbathing, but also to see the pyramids. Mostly elderly folk, but you see some younger ones every once in a while. In the age of media overload it’s hard to grab the attention of younger people, so I guess it’s the historians job to make history more entertaining (while of course not loosing the accuracy). I can atleast say that I turned a few people over with my presentations.

So you guys recruit EU players too?

Sublimatio.6981:

Guessed Enemy: Gwen. Just because.

Gwen should hear about the peace with the beasts, and come back from the Underworld, tearing apart cities with rage. Really, I’m so disappointed – her campaign against the beasts went for nothing. “All iris flowers are dead. Soon, the charr will follow!” …and they didn’t.
(Don’t mind me, I cry when I see the ruins of Northern Wall etc.) xD
Btw. Gwen wouldn’t be enemy! I would stand with her, to bane the wild beasts from her homeland!

Don’t mind me, being the first to put a bullet through Gwen’s unholy zombie head.

“BuddhaKeks, you killed the zombie Gwen!” – “She was a zombie?”

Narcemus.1348:

Kitten, I hope Joko isn’t an ally. I’m sick and tired of leaving that “lesser evil” alone in order to kill a greater one just so he can wreak more havoc, enslave more people groups, etc…

Just because he was un-killable 250 years ago doesn’t mean he is now. I’ve always wondered what he would look like after an asura megalaser blasted his kitten.

How can one hate a fictional character so much?

/shakes his head in disbelief

Now back to Gwen, the worst thing ever. I hate her so much!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

kitten GW1 PCs, screwing things up for us yet again. First they let the charr win, then they break Temple of Ages, and they even tried killing Glint. Now they went and wiped out most native species on the world.

Heck yeah! ’Murica! … I mean Tyria!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Guessed Ally: Joko. I like to view him as an anti-villain. Though he does bad things, he’s a “lesser evil” to all other evils out there, and being impossible to kill with an army of undead under his palm, he can be useful as an ally but someone you don’t want as an enemy.

Back off! He’s my pick! <3

Observed Ally: The Order of Whispers. They are the masters of secret lore and their spy tech is atleast on the same level, probably better than the Shining Blade’s. I’m pretty sure they have their own version of a Helicarrier and an Agent Coulson to spare.

Observed Enemy: Inquest. They blow a lot of stuff up, sometimes on accident, sometimes on purpose. Give those crazy bunny-eared terrorists the complete control over dragon magic and doomsday will be upon us.

Guessed Enemy: Gwen. Just because.

Narcemus.1348:

Now, you say that King Thorn was a Necromancer, but I don’t believe I’ve read anywhere that his profession was given away. Most of the time he was seen using Candy Corn Elementals in the past, and the undead found in quests were fighting against him, not with him…

Take that to GW2, there are undead, but generally just cause by the veil between the real world and underworld being weakened. I would be more willing to assume that the skeletons of Mad King Thorn are fake than undead, though that’s just personal opinion.

He was a warrior in GW1, but all NPCs with undefined profession were warriors by default. However I’m pretty certain that it was mentioned in last years Mad Memories scavenger hunt that he was a necromancer. I can’t find the dialog anywhere though. It was in the bit where the villagers decided what to do with his body, it was something about them cutting it in pieces so he couldn’t resurrect with his necromancy.

And there was atleast one other part that called him a powerful wizard, I think the one with the Istani fleet.

Elidath.5679:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I see no reason for them to be not “real”.

The fact they go hand in hand with bright green plastic spiders and bedsheet-phantoms, albeit not a proof, is a serious hint.
They most probably aren’t really creatures, but merely animated halloween props MKT created for his own pleasure.

The glow-in-the-dark skeletons might very well be fake (though they still could be just enchanted to glow, because Thorn can’t sleep without his night lights on), but they differ from the other skeletons in the way that they never used weapons, atleast I can’t recall ever seeing one using actual weapons, besides those with chainsaws… but the latter don’t make much sense anyway. The point is, there is a sligth difference in behaviour between most likely fake skeletons and most likely real ones.
Anyway, as I said the Mad King used real undead in the past, next to creatures like his candy-corn constructs, so I still see zero reasons why he all of the sudden can’t possibly have real skeletons in his army.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

It’s not our world, it’s not real skeletons, there is no proof they was alive once. It’s just Mad King madness.

Well the Mad King (un)lives in the Underworld, a common source for undead or where do you think Dhuum got his army of skeletons from? Besides Thorn is a very powerful necromancer, it would make sense for him to use actual undead minions, as he has in the past. I see no reason for them to be not “real”.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Well, skeletons are pretty basic and common dead-creature for fantasy worlds, but there is none in gw2, we have ghost, zombies, frost-zombies, crystal-zombies, etc., but not clean-boned skeletons, why?

Not sure what you are talking about OP

CHIPS.6018:

The Giganticus Lupicus are mega giants of Elder Dragon size. It is unclear if the giants we see alive today are related to them.

Giganticus Lupicus could be as old as the Elder Dragons, or even older. Just as old theory means the GL were fighting against ED for generations, until ED comes out victorious. The older theory means the GL were on Tyria first, and the ED arrives later (from outer space???) and wiped out GL.

Some of the giant bones we see might belong to ED instead of GL. It would make sense that a titanic battle between GL and ED would lead to causality from both sides.

The ED today doesn’t like each other, so it is not certain if the ED 10,000 years old fought as an united force.

GL are certainly not as big as EDs. We can actually see an undead version in Arah. He is big, I’d say probably bigger than a giant, but not ED-sized. And I also don’t think they are older than the EDs, since as we now know, the EDs are part of Tyria’s life and death cycle. They awake as soon as there is enough magic, feast on it and all living creatures that happen to cross their path and then go back into hybernation. I don’t know how old Tyria is, but I’m pretty sure they did this cycle for way longer that 11,000 years.

Meluna.1764:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Exosferatu.2961:

Konig Des Todes IS the Loremaster of Guild Wars.

But can he see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

Yes he can and he wrote a 20 page essay on the subject.

Awww so much love! You better marry him then, there is still a cozy spot down in his crypt. :P

Exosferatu.2961:

Konig Des Todes IS the Loremaster of Guild Wars.

But can he see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

You are maybe overthinking this a little…

Maybe they all had an oldschool dinosaur laser fight? … In space, with sharks…

Probably NSFW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcmBALxDkRY

Weindrasi.3805:

So the human Gods are essentially just the smartest scientists who found a way to teleport the population to an alternate dimension?

And then started behaving as moody as the ancient greek pantheon… yeah I’m not really buying that theroy. It sounds cool, but it doesn’t make to much sense.

Both really. Humans are highly capable magic users, no matter where they come from. Special mentions still goes to Orr though, where magic users were so common that they used magic for their every day jobs.
With only Kryta and Ascalon to choose from, well I might say Kryta, since Ascalonians seem more down to earth, more likely to be a warrior or a ranger. But that’s more personal opinion and not based on the lore.
I’d say go by the looks. If he is more tanned and mediterranean looking go with Kryta, if he is a paler more nothern looking guy, go with Ascalon. Atleast that’s how it was in GW1, in GW2 Krytans can be pale and Ascalonians tanned, since we have a happy mixed bag of humans without any identity nowadays…

I think the only official thing we have on Rangers as magic users are these lines from the Ranger and Ritualist description: “Nature rituals allow them to manipulate the environment to hinder their enemies, or borrow the very power of creation to heal and aid their allies” and "Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master. "

So yes the Ranger does use some sort of magic, but it’s closer to the Ritualist than to an Elementalist. He channels the spirits of nature and calls them for aid, rather than bending magic. This form of magic is far older than any other magic arts and not bound to the Blood Stones (though, what is nowadays…). If I had to guess, I’d say the ranger profession has the same origins as the Ritualists, but they split ways rather early, with the Ranger going to live in tune with the spirits, while the Ritualist controlled them.
The Thunderclap in this case would be more like one of these skills rather than any lightning spell of the Ele.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My Final View
Probably would have been better without Rox and without lore or story. Now I’m just confused on story order.

I’m confused too and that makes me angry. I’m so angry I could, I could…

/tries to break a pen and fails

No really, I saw that comming, when Angel said in that one TowerTalk episode that the LS isn’t set after the personal storyline. At this point I knew they said this just so they could screw the timeline with this update. It wasn’t even necessary, they could have just said that Tequatl became for an unkown reason more powerful, so the players could speculate if it absorbed some of Zhaitans powers after his death or whatever. This intentional vagueness is better than letting us belief the LS is completely post-Zhaitan and then suddenly not.

callanrocks.4218:

Adding new lore every two weeks doesn’t seem to work too well

Yeah, it doesn’t, but expanding on already existing lore could do well. Writing lore is like building a house, before you stack new things on top, you first need a solid foundation. Now GW1 was a solid foundation for vanilla GW2, but recently they just add and add, creating an unbalance. Granted they made allusion here and there, like the Zephyrites and their connection to Glint, but I think it should be more than that. Forget about Aetherblades, give us something on the White Mantle instead.
And most importantly, acknowledge that the playable character from GW1 existed! That still drives me nuts, that there is no mention of the single greatest hero in Tyria’s history, besides a freaking unpersonal HoM!

Narcemus.1348:

On a side note: KEEP STABBING ME LARGOS! IT IS WORKING!!!!! Lol.

Oh so much blood! The red will be everywhere! /wink wink stab stab

Antara.3189:

The Wizards tower is one of my fondest mysteries in Tyria

Yeah the tower is mysterious and cool. You know what else is mysterious and cool? Ninjas! Holy dolyak! The wizard’s tower might be a ninja!

Narcemus.1348:

Then you could add to this massive library with more books about the specific places you went, perhaps you even find a journal of one of the characters from THE GW1 ACCOUNT YOU LINKED TO THE GAME! I always thought this would add depth to the relatively weak Durmand Priory we find today.

YES! YES! THIS! All we have right now is the HoM, which completly SUCKS, because it’s so unpersonal. How hard is it to atleast give me the names of my freaking characters in the HoM, Anet? Or my tapestries, or anything that let’s me know that this was my HoM.

You might want to post this in the fan works subforum, this forum is for lore discussions only.

Besides, the Norn don’t strike me as people who would bemoun the loss of their land. They are attached to their environment, true, but not to the specific location, instead they are attached to the nature in general. Thus they don’t really care where they are, as long as they can be in touch with nature in one way or the other, as evidenced by the great amount of Norn who leave the shiverpeaks entirely to go on adventures, some of whom never come back.
Now you might say, but why did they fight Jormag if they don’t care that much about their homeland? Easy, because it was a worthy opponent to slay. The spirits had to guide them south so they would stop trying to kill the dragon, not because they didn’t want to leave the Far Shiverpeaks.
Of course there are stories told about the old homeland, but I guess that’s more for nostalgia and the general popularity of stories and legends among the Norn. When I think about it, I’m not sure if the Norn even have a concept of homeland, maybe they just have hunting grounds, a radius in which a Norn and his kin hunt and live and they can leave without remorse if there isn’t any worthy prey left.

Ha I never saw this one

I bet he made it for Martin. Should have made one in a good old ’Lautern jersey. Would have been even easier on the eyes. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It’s clear that GW2’s writers have seen game of thrones, or read a song of ice and fire, because why else do you think Minster Zamon’s asked for trial by combat? That was literally ripped from game of thrones.

Could be, but trail by combat did exist and was done rather frequently. There is even a german handbook written in the middle ages with useful tips and guides how to win such a trial by combat and how to counter different weapons and strategies, by your opponent.

Edit: Didn’t see Aaron’s post. :P

Ludovicus.7980:

Oh come on, the Boltons are way better than the Starks. They know their medieval ways. They’re survivors, not knights in shining armor. They know who to ally and who to betray.

Oh look, a Michael Bolton fan!

I kid, I kid.

Rhaegar.1203:

Also, Titans are NOT gods. They were imposed by the Flame Legion as deities, but they were failed creations of Abaddon. See, if we consider them gods, so were the Destroyers, the replacement the Flame Legion found for them 6 years later. Until Humans came again and killed those too.

Pretty much, I still doubt that the Destroyers were ever seen as gods by any of the Charr though. They are a race of smart beings that rather depend on their own strength and wits then any outside source. It was probably hard enough for them to accept the titans as “gods” and those were killed by their mortal enemies. I don’t think anyone would have seriously worshipped the Destroyers after what happened to the titans, I guess it was more of a playing along, even though they all knew what was up.

Rhaegar.1203:

The narrative in Edge of Destiny, around the middle of the book, felt a lot like a Megaman game; choose a boss, jump into their stage, kill, and get out. Next face in the selection screen. All of this, separated by impersonal letters with subtext from the Queen of Divinity’s Reach.

The most accurate description of this book I have ever seen! Kudos to you!

The tone on this subforum really got harsher towards Anet and it’s way of dealing with lore in the last month(s). And I totally agree with it. I sure hope someone from Anet reads this and understands it as constructive criticism. We need a lot of changes both in the lore itself and how it is distributed.

I always feel that every good story, no matter if it’s a book, a film, a game or anything else, needs humor in it, no matter how dark it is. Just look at The Dark Knight, it’s incredibly dark and moody, but it still has some genuinely funny parts, like Lucius chewing out that Wayne Enterprises accountant who asked too many questions.
That gives a pretty good balance, since as the reader/viewer/player you don’t want to feel depressed all the time by what you are experiencing.

However Guild Wars 2 is as far away from this kind of writing, as they could possibly be. Anet doesn’t seem to take Tyria seriously anymore. And if they don’t do that, why should I as a player take Tyria seriously?
I really miss the writing from Nightfall, it was by far the best they ever had. Of course it wasn’t perfect, but it had a pretty good balance between dark (Kormir’s eyes getting eaten, the lost battle of Gandara, the ghost of Dunkoro’s son etc.) and humorous (Koss, Prince Bokka, Palwa Joko etc). They even managed to fiddle in a kitten love traingle. Not perfect, but still better than that cheesy Heart’s of the North drama… yuck!
I also really like the War in Kryta. It had everything it needed to have, drama, tension, humor and a pretty good conclusion. And they did this with the very small live-team, which didn’t have much resources!
Why then, does the living story fail in this regard? Well it didn’t always, I think Flame&Frost was quite good to be honest. It was too slow at the start and I don’t like Rox and Braham, but overall it gave us a rather dark story, dark enough to balance out the humor. Sadly they completly lost this balance right now. Not that I don’t appreciate good humor, I love it, but when I started my adventures in Tyria back in 2005 I fell in love with the rather dark atmosphere, not with some wacky villian-sue and an ensemble of comic reliefs.

There was already a topic on this, but the search function doesn’t seem to work rigth now, atleast not for me, so I can’t provide you a link. Anyway, yes Tyria has lions, in Elona to be exact.

Also they could have lived in continental Tyria and just went extinct. Europe used to have a population of lions too until the about 300 B.C. and they were still used as symbols of power much later.

Drakkon.4782:

Narcemus.1348:

Bah I give up. I can’t keep up with this freakin thread. It’d take me days to get caught up to whatever the heck you guys are talking about now…

Long story short: We’re agreeing that there isn’t enough information to know if the Charr actually won against Orr, so we’re calling it until the devs give us more clues. Without that, there’s little else to discuss. Sorry, we kind of handled the entire conversation. Some people will undoubtedly want to voice their coppers, but we’re basically done here.

Also lot’s of showing off that posters are historians.

Drakkon.4782:

As I don’t necessarily disagree with the rest, I’m not addressing it directly. I just have a problem here. I don’t see the Sylvari siding exclusively with the Humans. The Charr are honest about their ruthlessness. They’re violent, certainly, but they’re not evil. I think the Sylvari would probably work with both sides to broker a lasting peace if open violence starts up. Like the Norn, the Sylvari would not side, directly. The Asura… are different. They wouldn’t side with anyone, but would probably sell weapons and golems to whoever wanted them.

Yeah, I actually wanted to say that about the Asura too, but well character limit… Good point about the Sylvari, I forgot how much of a peace loving slime trail they leave behind… I mean how they are brokers of peace. I still see them as more on the human side, but some might also side with the Charr. It really depends on what the Pale Tree says (if the Charr haven’t burned it down by that point. That’s an act I can support)

We can’t deal with the Pact. it’s a player-involved faction, and if this were to play out, the players would direct them to support their own side, or the Pact would stay out of it. It’s just… awkward to bring them into the discussion.

But they are an important political and military power. What the player character is, does not matter for the discussion, since it differs from player to player anyway. In other words, for the purpose of the imaginary construct, we should just leave the player character out, even if the is the second in command of the pact.

Yeah, I don’t think that a war is in anyone’s interests. I think that the best option is a multiracial option, but I don’t doubt the Charr would prevail. They’re just… driven.

I don’t think they are as bloodthirsty and power hungry as they seem. It really depends on who is in charge and how much the legions are willing to cooperate, once all threats are delt with. Keep in mind, they aren’t really united, they just work together right now for a common goal, which would be to secure Ascalon and destroy the Flame Legion. As soon as this is done they could even go back to internal power struggles. And then there are also new threats that could arise, like Palawa Joko leading his undead through the Crystal Desert, or a massive fleet of Canthans arrives with the goal to conquer the barbaric north (not very likely, but how cool would that be :P).

Drakkon.4782:

True, it wouldn’t win them any friends, unless no one cared, in which case, it wouldn’t cause them any problems, either. While the Charr might not appreciate the response of the rest of the world, and the rest of the world might have to chew on the idea of banding together to overcome them, the fact of the matter is that it is worth the risk, and is something the Charr might risk.

Some Charr maybe, but the majority of the Imperators and Tribunes aren’t looking into expanding anywhere. Before you can run around and conquer stuff you have to secure your territory. Something the Charr are still working on right now. The piece with Kryta was necessary, so they can focus on other threats. Now if they would be gone, it’s pretty much possible that they would go to war with others over new territory, but those threats we are speaking of are many and some of them are Elder Dragons.
While not unkillable, it certainly takes a lot of effort to take just one down (and that assuems the others haven’t learned from Zhaitan’s demise). And even after the dragon is gone you still have to clean up it’s minions. No, I don’t think we’ll see Charr conquest in the rough time frame of GW2.
Even if all those threats were gone in time while or is still unpopulated, I highly doubt humans would just let it happen. And don’t underestimate those guys. They might lack in war machines, but those guys produce magicians that make an asura go pale (e.g. Lord Odran or King Thorn). With the dragon threat gone, the overall magic level of Tyria would probably rise. We can’t be sure if that has an effect on how powerful a spellcaster can be, but if it does… oh Charr you are in for a ride. Of course Charr have some spellcaster of their own, but their best are in the Flame Legion, which by that point would be gone (since all threats are delt with) and I highly doubt the Charr would take their magic secrets as their own. They are opportunistic yes, but at the same time, they hate everything Flame Legion with a passion.
And then of course there are 3 more major races. Norn would probably fight for both sides, as mercenaries, Sylvari, I see them on the human side. They are really into fulfilling ones destiny and being the heir to a reawakened kingdom screams destiny, while conquering something because you can, seems more like general kittenery. So the Asura could be the deciding point and honestly, I think they would be neutral. They only care about their own gain, so no matter who wins this fight, they can just wipe out the weakend winner if they want (atleast this would be the Inquest approach I guess).

This isn’t the case in Orr. There’s no one living there who can oppose the Charr, so any “defense” of Orr would have to be by a rival invading army. Call it right of the kings by bloodline, or defending against the expansionist armies of a militaristic race, or sugar coat it however you want, but we’re still talking about imperial expansionism, no matter whose doing it.

Not quite true, the Pact is there. I don’t think they would just leave Orr until they found someone who takes it. If the Charr would march into that, I’m pretty sure they would see this as an act of war and treachery to Pact and it’s allies.
In that case we would have the Zhaitan situation with the Charr getting some slaps on their greedy paws.
If the land is already human by that point, it goes back to my earlier point, all-out war between humanity + possibly Sylvari versus Charr.

Humanity claims they have legitimate claim to Orr. The Charr can make the same claim. The Norn, Asura and Sylvani have NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER. So it’s Humans vs Charr in this thread, and I don’t see the Humans willing in a war against the Charr, if it came down to that.

But, as you pointed out, Smodur and Malice both have no inclination towards wiping humanity out, and are much more likely to foster cooperation over imperialism. I blame most of the arguing on the poor framework established for the discussion.

I’m not even denying some forces in the Charr Legions would welcome such a war, same can be said about some of the humans (/cough Caudecus). But as we come to agree (I guess), at the current point, no sides leaders would want such a war.

If I may draw a historical reference again, right before WWI, all nations wanted this war, until about a few days before it started, when everyone crapped their pants, as they saw what they just unleashed. Not just one of those tiny little wars for dominance, but a full-blown until the bitter end war. And then they wanted to stop it. Sadly it was too late.
The current leaders of both the humans and the Charr are to smart for that, but get some people like Tsar Nicholas II or Kaiser Wilhem II in their places and kitten goes down.

PS.: Had to cut down the quotes a bit for the character limit

Remember when new to content used to be awesome and not useless gemstore knickknack? I do, it was called Guild Wars 1.

Though to be fair GW1 had it’s fair share of that stuff too in the post EotN years.

Drakkon.4782:

True, but you are the same side of the argument, so you should be somewhat circumspect about that. Just saying, people don’t differentiate the source of the message, just the message itself. You’re on the same side, you must be making the same arguments. It isn’t logical, but it what happens. If your side of the argument is confused as to its message, then the argument itself will get confused, too.

And if I start arguing against other people on “my side” over things like this, you can say that “my side” is quarreling and can’t make a coherent point. I can’t win in this situation, therefore it’s unfair for me. Heck there are others in this thread on your side, but I ignore them, or have already delt with them, so the best thing you could do, is do the same. It’s not my fault if other people argue with you at the same time, about the same thing, with different points. That just happens on a forum and we just have to deal with it.

Drakkon.4782:

And, through Jennah, perhaps they have a legitimate claim in their eyes, but you must also acknowledge that the Charr have just a legitimate a claim, in their own eyes. The real question really isn’t who has the stronger claim, but who can back it up with the stronger force. On Tyria, that will almost always be the Charr. They are a nation of warriors.

That, but the way, is medieval politics akittens finest. I am a historian, actually, and I do know a bit about historical cultures. But the monarch is the nation, and the nations are sovereign. That’s the meaning of the word and its origin. Thus, when royal families started intermarrying, the lineages of succession became muddied and polluted with foreigners who had rightful claim to a throne. It was hard enough for courtiers back then to figure out who had the stronger claim, so it’s no doubt that we here and now, having mostly abandoned that way of running countries, would have a problem following it here.

I should note that the Charr are also the only democratic nation on the planet that we know of so far. Rule of the strongest is still a rule by the acceptance of the people, which is the essence of democracy. Voting is done through actions, not words. In a lot of ways, it is a more honest way of ruling. After all, you’ve already shown you can do the job successfully.

Not saying royal lines, or claims are an easy thing to wrap ones head around, I’m just saying that this is pretty much how it works in Tyria too, atleast for humans. To figure out who and how a person is the closest relative of Reza and his royal line, is probably some human scholar’s, or the Shining Blade’s job (hey they found Salma, that’s something!).

Of course the Charr could back up their claim of “we once send an army there, it’s ours!” by their military strength, but that wouldn’t get them many outside supporters. They would just behave like big bullies, walzing through to gain some land, that isn’t connected to them. And again, just because you have strong military doesn’t mean you can just run arround and do what you want. At some point, everyone else will be fed up with your bs and take you down in a combined effort. Pretty much what the Pact did to Zhaitan, could happen to the Charr, if they did what you suggest.
There is a reason Smodur and Malice were welcoming the piece talks with humanity. Don’t you think they could have taken Ebonhawke if they really wanted and put all their effort in it? Of course they could, but they didn’t, since it was a chance at piece. Even the greatest warriors will get tired eventually, especially if you have the Flame Legion, Ghosts, Brandend, Ogres and what not to deal with.

And just for the record, I’m a great fan of the Charr, how they turned out, how they behave and of their culture. But I don’t think there is any chance they would ever get Orr and I don’t think they even want it. At best they get a fortress there, like Ebonhawke in Ascalon is for the humans, with memorials for the fallen army of the cataclysm. But that’s it.

Drakkon.4782:

I never said you did. That was my point. You two are arguing the flip side of the same side of the issue, and it’s making both of you look weak and disorganized. From a propaganda standpoint, you guys look foolish, rudderless, and lost on your talking points. It’s like the 2012 Republican Presidential Campaign: Lots of noise but no substance.

Honestly, I love a good debate. I’d like to see stronger arguments coming from the pro-Human side, but right now, you guys collectively aren’t making a very good show of consolidating your position. Until you do, you’re going to look like you’re just doing donuts in the parking lot. Lots of smoke and noise, but you’re not getting anywhere.

I also wasn’t arguing against your point in that post. You make a good point with that, and I don’t necessarily disagree with that logic. HOWEVER, you need to look at my post above this one, and you’ll see where that argument falls down. In all honesty, I think you probably have the best chance of carrying this discussion on rationally and civilly. I look forward to your response.

Sorry for posting consecutively, too. Normally, I would have added this post to the last, but the last one was fairly long, so I decided to break up the set.

We aren’t one party, I can’t possibly know what other people will post, as much as they can’t know what I will post. And just because someone is on the same side, doesn’t mean he has the same reason to be so. Judging my posts, by other peoples is nonsensical, since I have 0 influence on them.

But back to the point. You see the humans of Tyria in a way to modern light, with everyone being a defiend nation, but that’s not the case with kingdoms. Nationalism in the sense we saw it starting in the 18th century, did not exist in the middle ages. It does to a degree in Guild Wars (for example Adelbern distrusting Krytans), but more as a form okittennowledging your own heritage, not as a political entity.
For a kingdom to exist, all that matters is a monarch and this monarch does not have to be from the country he is ruling, just look at Richard Lionheart, King of England, yet 100% french (well Norman, but he was born and lived in France and only spoke french. He hadn’t seen England until he was in an advanced age).
Same applies to Kryta and Orr. The king does not have to be orrian, he just has to be related to the royal line of Orr, which would be by default Queen Jennah, since both her and the orrian royal line (and the ascalonian for that matter) descent from a single person. It does matter that this was 1300 years ago, it still counts. So if Jennah so desired, she could rightfully claim Orr, being backed up by humans laws. Same goes for Wade Samuelsson, who is also a descendant of Doric, through the nobel familes of Ascalon. It’s even possible that one of those surviving orrians turns out to be related to King Reza.
Now again, those are human laws, that does not mean the other races accept them, but atleast it gives the humans the upper hand if another race claims Orr, none of which has a claim as solid as this. And since the land is currently supervised by the neutral Pact, they would most likely give it to the humans, if they give it free at all (which they eventually should, they are a military order, no government).

Drakkon.4782:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I’m not going to repeat what I said yet again, just reread my posts until you get it, if you don’t, well not my problem anymore. I still hope you will understand how the very post you just responded to is already a counter-arguement to everything you replied. Little suggestion, try not to think in modern terms of independent nations and more like medieval kingdoms.

Mist.6217:

Dustfinger – Our definition =/= Tyrian definitions so what you quoted is moot. Charr claim rights to Ascalon because it use to be their hunting ground but the Humans won the war to take over Ascalon, which per your own definition and this Charr ‘law’ means they have no claim to it any longer. Now they did take it back but they can’t claim it as ancestral lands since their ‘laws’ say once they lost the fight for it they no longer could claim it.

And this is why you guys will never win. Think like real world, don’t think like real world, think historically, don’t think historically. Get your stories straight, then argue against the solid consistent line of reasoning. Until then, you’re all just taking pot shots in the dark hoping to hit something.

Contrary to your belive, Mist and I, do not share the same opinon, even if we are on the vaguely definied same side. So him saying that Tyria has nothing to do with real world history is not my point and I totally disagree with it, since we know human birthright laws are heavily inspired by actual laws we saw in european history. In other words, my “story” is straight and you utterly fail to argue against it.

Sitkaz.5463:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Sitkaz.5463:

Personally I like the conflict they bring to Tyria.

The problem is, they don’t. There is barely anything negative about the Sylvari, especially no conflict. Or can you give me a valid source of anything ingame that alludes to this conflict?

The first thing that came to mind is Gixx (I think that’s who it is?) the leader of the priory, and his reaction to Magister Sieran. Regardless of how irresponsible she is, his reaction to her is over the top racist. A lot of people in-game and out don’t mind throwing around the gentler “salad head” term.

Yeah I played that myself, but I don’t see racism in it, it’s more that he doesn’t like how Sieran handles things. It’s very unscholarly, to say the least. And to be honest, I totally agree with him, as a historian myself, Sieran annoyed me to no end, with her unprofessional attitude.
And don’t get me started on racial slurs, the Charr call humans “Meat”, the Asura call humans “Bookah”. That’s just how people used to be behave towards another, until political correctness was invented. That doesn’t necessarily mean they have a distrust or hate for them, even if it somewhat discriminatory. That’s still far from being a conflict, especially if you compare it to something like the Charr vs. human thing.

Drakkon.4782:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Orr is as much human ancestral land as ascalon is Charr ancestral land. Even more so in fact. As I already explained countless times in this thread

And this is why you’re falling on deaf ears: Which humans? Orrians are dead. Krytans have no claim on Orr. Canthan either. Elonans? Nope. Nada.

See, you just don’t get it. The problem you’re missing is that GW2 treats races properly. Not as one mindless faction, but as separate nations. You can’t say that Orr belongs to the Humans because there are more than one human nations on Tyria. This is why your arguments always fail.

Oh boy, I rarely laughed so hard at irony. I’m not going to repeat what I said yet again, just reread my posts until you get it, if you don’t, well not my problem anymore. I still hope you will understand how the very post you just responded to is already a counter-arguement to everything you replied. Little suggestion, try not to think in modern terms of independent nations and more like medieval kingdoms.

Dustfinger.9510:

an issue I see is that the argument of kryta having Orr that hinges on an alleged human law that passes fallen kingdoms to descendeants of peasants. Yet, the supposed charr law of taking what they want by force is some how ignored? This seems to be a double standard that cherry picks information in order to come to a predetermined conclusion.

Not really, since we just don’t know if the Charr even have a law like this. The humans do, we know that since they care so much about finding rightful heirs. The Charr seem to go by “who conquers it, can keep it”, which could be a law, but at the same time, it could just be a guiding line. But even if it was a law, they never conquered Orr, so they would still have no legitimate basis for a claim. And going to war with the humans again, would be the complete opposite of what the Iron and Ash Legion want right now, atleast with Smodur and Malice in charge.