Guild Wars 2

I noticed that too. I always prefered Kryta over Ascalon in GW1 for it’s more unique setting, but now it seems ascalonified. I really miss the mediterranean/pacific look we had.

Gandarel.5091:

draxynnic.3719:

I don’t think ArenaNet ever actually claimed it was fan made or that it wasn’t a mesmer – that was just the mesmer-haters trying to persuade others and, probably, mostly themselves that it could be something else. ArenaNet just refused to confirm it.

They refused to admit for years, and in 2012 the confirmed it.

At that time the classes weren’t finalized, they couldn’t know for sure that the mesmer makes it into the game, so if they had admitted it and the mesmer ended up being cut, let’s say because they couldn’t get illusions to work properly or something, then a lot of people would have felt betrayed. Sure the chance of the mesmer not ending up in the game at that point was rather low, but still there, so they just didn’t risk it (or jinx it).

It’s neither from the books nor GW1, it was created for this content update. I highly doubt we will get an in-universe explanation on why it suddenly appeared, you are supposed to acknowledge it like it was always there. That’s called suspension of disbelief.

It’s the unofficial roleplay server, deal with it. This is such a ridiculous statement, you call yourself roleplayer yet you are unable to ignore some other players names. Do you have no imagination?
It’s pretty obvious those people are not interested in roleplay, so you don’t even have use their names in your act. And even if they wanted to roleplay with you, you could still agree on a name that can be used instead. It’s not that hard.

Kyban.4031:

I wasn’t saying Zhaitan caused it or they were his minions, just that his power had some affect on it. I don’t think they really explained where the Orrian undead came from or how Khilbron became a lich. Did Khilbron use necromancy before the scroll or did Abaddon have something to do with it?

Well I see it as a possibility that Khilbron tapped into Zhaitan’s power like the asura used Primordus magic for their gate network. He is obviously not a minion of Zhaitan, but he doesn’t look like a standart undead. He is rather draconic instead of a skeleton or a mummy like other Liches shown in the game (or atleast what we also presume to be liches).

There are other hints that draconic energy was used in Tyria’s history, like the Charr may used Kralkatorrik’s energy for the searing, or the Flame Legion may used Primodrus’ power for their rituals. And of course the Inquest uses it frequently. None of them are minions of the dragons though.

@OP: I think it’s possible that Zhaitan being the main antagonist of the game is a reference to the Lich of Prophecies, but that doesn’t mean they will always go that route.

Well english isn’t my native language, but I always thought Vigil means something like night watch. So guards that stay up to protect something while others go to sleep. Metaphorically that would mean that they stay alert so that others can sleep peacefully.

I certainly like the fact that he advertises lore to a broader audience, it’s just that he takes other peoples findings and gives no mention of them, leading most of his viewers to believe, he actually does the researching himself. He should learn to quote his sources, until then I will see him as nothing more as a glory hog.

(INB4, no he didn’t steal anything from me, but the fact that he does, ticks me off)

“Now you could argue that the Norn evolved from the humans after they came to Tyria, but that’s just a few thousand years ago, you could only explain it with fastened magical evolution, which is a possibility, but I don’t think we have any indication for that.”

From my second post in this thread. At what point did I talk about the complete opposite? If I look at my posts, almost all of them mention magical evolution as a possibility, but since atleast I don’t know how exactly magic could affects the transformation of life forms, I wont base my argument on it. I can only discuss with the facts I know.

Also you asume the humans could be on Tyria for more than 11,000 years. Well guess what we know (!) that dwarves and Jotun live on Tyria for longer than that. Besides that you can’t know if humans even are as old as you claim, and you can’t be sure if they even settled elsewhere first before they came to Cantha. Get that in your thick head, your whole argument is based on a ton of “ifs” and “maybes”. And every single one of them makes it more and more unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely).
I don’t know why I have to write that in every single post and you still refuse to understand that. But I am the one who can’t “comprehend” anything.
And how would it need magical evolution to develop from Jotun or dwarves? Because Norn can turn into bears? Because of dragons? Because shut up? Please tell me, I have no idea what you are getting at, since you continue to utterly fail to explain your random outbursts.

Please give me all your sources and research on magical evolution in Tyria, you seem to have them, since you claim to know exactly what effect it has on life forms. If you don’t have any, then stop pretending you know what exact effects it would have and accept that you can’t base your arguments on things you don’t know. How can you solve the equation, if you don’t know the variables?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

snip

Which is what I’m saying. As long as magic is involved and the mists, anything could be true. Don’t try to have an argument with me about the scientific possibility of something evolving from something when we don’t know how this stuff even works in Tyria.
I said, Norn evolving from humans is only possible through magical evolution, otherwise it would simply be too fast. So if we take magic into account, then yes it is possible, if we don’t take it into account then no it’s is not possible.

Is Tyria a magical place? Yes it is. Can we apply physics to it? Yes we can, but some of it just wont make sense. The easy explanation is magic which we can do, but then the debate stops, because now we are talking about something we don’t fully understand. We don’t know it’s boundaries, it’s capabilities. Continuing to argue about something we can not understand, for the reason that it does not exist to be studied in the real world, is pointless.

To again summerize my theory, so it doesn’t get lost in those pointless ramblings about magic and science:
Human to Norn evolution is impossible in the given time frame, except for magic influence, which totally exsists in Tyria.
Jotun/Giant/Dwarf to Norn evolution is possible in the given time frame, with or without magic and even likely since life tends to explode after mass extinctions (like the ED cycles).

“Dwarves I personally chock up to “because they were taken from standard fantasy” and I’d have to shrug it away.”

They are magical fantasy creatures, let’s ignore them!

“you’re presuming the world of Tyria functions the same way planets in reality do. Despite Tyria also being called a realm.”

Tyria is no planet it’s a magical place of wonder, like Disney Land! Wohooo!

And yes you must be presuming magical evolution since, even 10.000BE would be pretty fast to evolve so far away that they are almost twice as tall and can’t have any offspring. That means they belong at best to the same genus. And you have to keep in mind that they first have to get to the Far Shiverpeaks, which no matter how Tyria is shaped, will take some time, atleast a few houndred years, if they aren’t pressured away by an external force.
Which leads me back to my very first and most important point. Those are too many “ifs”, with every “if” making it more and more unlikely. Yes there is still a very slim possibility, but, again, without evidence, it’s just to little.

The way I see it, hominids in Tyria could have branched off into creatures like Grawl, giants, ogres, dwarves and Norn. They don’t even have to be evolved from one another. But if they did, Norn probably come from Jotun or have a common ancestor with them. By that they are still related to dwarves, but not to humans, because they came from another planet, with a complete different line. Why do they look like smaller Norn? Cosmic coincidence? Convergent evolution? Ancient aliens (the six) abducting Grawl to breed them into humans? Who knows. The important thing is that this is the easier explanation compared to, humans that come to Tyria, look already like dwarves, giants and other creatures and then some of them also evolve rapidly into a new genus the Hömö nornensis (the ö’s are for avoiding the censorship).

If there are already humanoids on the planet, why make up an unecessary complicated theory that one of those humanoids evolved from humans than they could have evolved from any other humanoid there? What sense does that make?

Well the whole argument lost it’s point when you decided to brush everything off with “eh magic”. What’s even the point of discussing anything, if you presume any possible weakpoints in your theory are fixed by inducing magic?
Yes magic does exist in Tyria, that’s no justification to be lazy though and say a wizard did it.

If Cantha was actually part of the Tyrian-Elonian-supercontinent than Tyria (planet) would be so small that it possibly couldn’t even support an atmosphere. In that case going From Lion’s Arch to Kaineng would be a vertical journy across half the globe, passing the south pole on the way.
Which is a very odd way to travel to begin with, since atleast real world human cultures are actually more likely to travel east and west than south and north, since it has less heavy climate changes that way. Also Tyria has no cold region on it’s south pole (would that be the battle islands then?) which is also odd, but okay, maybe Tyria is tilted towards it’s sun.
So on this abnormally small planet, which still has an atmosphere and earth-like gravity, where people like to travel vertically, there is a super continent that is connected by land but it’s people prefer to sail around the south pole wich is pretty warm to get to the other side of said continent?
Yeah… no, I’m pretty sure that map is wrong.

And no I didn’t understand you wrong, your theory is simply false. If they had intended Eir to be this old, they would have made her model look old. Why? Because they created a special model for her anyway, why would they make it look decades younger than she is supposed to be? That would be beyond making a character attractive for the purpose of fan-service and an outright counter to the lore. I know Anet prefers attractive characters, but that would be ridiculous even by their standarts.
So either Eir is way younger than you think or Norn grow way older than you think.

I’m presuming far too much on humanoid apearances and you don’t? Isn’t the whole base for your point that Norn look like large humans and have a somewhat similar culture to the Luxon (which still doesn’t mean anything)?

Of course if one culture splits from another they will still come from the same roots, but they will drift apart, especially if they are in an different environment. Put nomands into fertile lands, next to a bunch of farming civilizations and they will eventually become farmers too. Put farmers into a dry wasteland and they will become nomads. In the end the evironment (including neighboring cultures) is the deciding factor. Traditions may stay, but their meaning will be forgotten, until they are gone.
If you really want to know if to cultures are related you have to look either at their languages or their DNA. Both methods wont give you a 100% certain answer, but that’s your best guess. But since we can’t do that in GW2, for the lack of fully developed languages and DNA to test, we can only go physiological similarities and the actual time the races spent on the planet.

To break it down:
Humans look like slimmer, smaller Norn. They don’t live as long and aren’t resitant to the cold climate. They are the youngest of the possible ancestors/relatives.

Dwarves look like smaller, stouter Norn, atleast the males, females can’t be judged. They live longer and also show some resitance to the cold climate (not as much as Norn). They are an old race, giving enough time for an evolutionary off-shoot.

Jotun are taller, plumber, white/grey skinned Norn, atleast the males (as I can’t remember seeing female Jotun). They probably live longer than the Norn and also show an resistance to the cold climate. They are an old race, giving enough time for an evolutionary off-shoot.

Then the unnamed homeland of the humans is the antartic region or whatever. It doesn’t matter. The point is that you said they traveled south until they ended up north, which is a crazy long journey. Certainly it would take them waaaaaay longer than it would the humans settle in Cantha, even if they rush straight to the point without settling anywhere else.

And yes I still think Norn look closer to dwarves than humans. Now this could of course be analogy, not relation, since they both live in the cold climate of the Shiverpeaks and cold climates lead to a more compact body, since a compact body has an easier time staying warm.

About the age, you yourself said that you suspect Eir to be 120 years old, despite her not looking old, just because Norn can get that old and still be ready for combat. Your argument was that she was said to be a child during the foundation of Hoelbrak. So such a relative young looking Norn can be 120, and Knut Whitebear is said to be older than her, I would asume atleast a few years, since he makes reference to her being younger, I would estimate atleast 10 years. Now we have a 130 year old Norn, who shows not much signs of suffering under his age. Either the Norn complain way less then human elders, or that isn’t even that old by Norn standarts. Fighting career ending old maybe, but not “I’m going to die soon” old.
And by the way, my original point was that Norn could be either related to dwarves or Jotun. Both of them are more likely than human, but Jotun is more likely than dwarf. That said, I could see the dwarves being a very distant relative of the giant races, simply for the fact that they have this large life span and are also humanoids. I can even see the Grawl being distantly related to all those.

And how is culture an indicator for evolutionary relation? Culture is based on your environment, not on your genetics. The Norn and the Luxon both live nomadic, so? They both live in areas with little place for crops, so it’s only natural they would wander around and follow herds of animals, either domestic or wild.

That’s like saying Iranian nomads are closer related to nomadic native american tribes than to the persians of the persian empire since they have a different life style.

No, no I’m getting that. I’m not even arguing against you or Drax to be honest, since I see no reason to. I admit, that I said, that we can be certain that they aren’t related was an overstatement, but that’s just because it’s very unlikely, unless we count either magical high speed evolution (possible in fantasy) or we asume the humans are way longer on Tyria than we thought (possible, but we have no real evidence).
However Konigs theories don’t make much sense, why would a single human group cut themself off, pass through all that fertile land, just so they could settle in the isolation of the Far Shiverpeaks? If they found the spirits there okay, a reason to stay, but why did they even move there to beginn with?
And the whole analogy of the gods being the evil spirits, Egil Fireteller mentions, no that doesn’t fit since the Norn acknowledge the human gods as spirits of Action, not of physical things in nature. Those evil sprits can actually be seen in EotN, one of them is Nulfatsu the Earthbound

@Konig: And I’m not saying that Norn comming from humans is absolutely wrong, it’s just so unlikly that I’d say we don’t have to talk about it until we get facts that state otherwise.

Okay if we asume Cantha is the counterpart to earths antarctic region, when they still would have travelled accross more than half the globe. Such a journey takes a long time, especially if you settle here and there along the way. So according to this theory, those proto-norn took this long journey as humans, and then they were there in the shiverpeaks they evolved into Norn? Or did they evolve before? Does that mean the other half of Tyria (planet) is populated by Norn?
So this theory would look like this: Humans arrive in Orr, get moved to an unknown continent near Cantha. Humans settle in Cantha, some go around the planet, either through thousands of kilometres of wasteland or by settling, which takes a lot of time, may or may not evolve into Norn on the way and finally arrive in the artic zone, where they think “Too cold!” and settle in the minimal warmer Far Shiverpeaks.
Possible, but that theory asumes a lot. And it’s highly likely that the humans would first arrive in Cantha (786BE) and long after that in the Shiverpeaks. We should use Occam’s razor until we have enough evidence to support such a claim.
That means Norn evolving from the second arrival of the humans in Orr, is more likely, yet still unlikely because that would be a crazy fast evolution, but whatever we have magic.

And saying dwarves are typical fantasy, let’s just shrug them off, is a cop-out, imo. First off, Norn look more like super-sized dwarves than tall humans to me, since they for the most part have that stout body, while humans, atleast in GW2, tend to be rather slim. The only major difference could be female dwarves, who may look identical to male dwarves, but we don’t know enough here to be certain. However, dwarves are known to live very long, easily more than 200 years. Norn do also live very long, maybe even twice as long as humans. Jotun can also be asumed to be very long lived, since they are related to ogres wich in turn also live easily more than 200 years.
Humans with their life-span of 80-90 years seem to be the odd one out here. Species related with each other tned to have similar life-spans (humans and chimpanzees for example, who can reach up to 60 years).
The way I see it, Norn being related to dwarves seems way more likely, than them being related to humans. But, and this is the important part, I’m only saying that this is a possibility. Norn coming from humans, on the otherhand, while there is a slim chance, it’s so unlikely that it can be discarded until we have actual evidence.

And where did I say anything about them being related/not related because they have a (dis)similar culture?

And you are asuming things on unrecorded history. While the scrolls indicate that the humans arrived in Orr first with the gods, we have no records of them having a civilization there, except those vague things in the scrolls, which could mean anything (as they are more prose than historic recordings) and Thruln the Lost who says someting about how the age of giants came to an end with the arrival of the humans. But this could A: possibly refer to the second arrival in 205BE and B: be made up, as Thruln isn’t the most reliable narrator.

But let’s say the Norn come from those first humans brought to Orr in an unkown time. So you theorize the proto-norn traveled from the humans’ home continent to the south to reach Tyria’s antarctic zone, which they when left to go further north until they reached the artic zone of Tyria, which they again left to make their home in the frozen shiverpeaks? Really? Come on, who would go through a whole planet to settle in the perma-frost? It’s one thing to be pushed by migration into such a territory and then settle there because all the land behind you is already settled, but traveling over more than half of the planet to get there, why would the proto-norn have doen that? That makes 0% sense.

And don’t even bother to make an analogy of how the first humans settling america went throw frozen sibiria to alaska to the arctic zone. That’s not only still less of a journey, it’s also possibly not true, as modern excavation support the theory that america was popularized by boat through the pacific ocean. So it wasn’t people who went through one frozen wasteland after another, but people from the south who searched for unsettled land and found it in the frozen north.

And even if you don’t take this into account, how do you explain dwarves? They were clearly on Tyria long before the humans, yet they also share the same appearance, sand the size. And what about the various races of giants? The Jotun are also predate humans on Tyria. That theory of yours ignores them both completely.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A few thousand years? Exactly how many thousands of years? When were the norn first called norn? When where they considered their own race.

We know NOTHING about the norn’s history. And little on the human’s history. Humanity could have came to the world as early as 10,000 BE – that’s 11,000 years. The earliest possible recording of norn known would be when charr took Ascalon – which we have next to no timeframe for other than “before 100 BE.” Add in extreme environemtns which can cause changes within a few generations for survival, and magic and you get a good amount of evolution. Hell, in even the latest possible date for the ED’s last rise (1,768 BE) there’d still be enough time for humans evolving into the norn. And we know magic’s involved – specifically the magic of the Spirits of the Wild – with the norn given their transformation abilities.

Well the first records of humans are in Cantha in 786BE, but they arrive in Tyria (continent) only in 205BE and since the Norn are only shown to live in Tyria we probably have to asume they, if anything, evolved from Tyrian humans. But as you said, when can the Norn be called Norn? They are Norn in 1078 AE so that means they had at best 1283 years to evolve.

What are the facts? The Norn can’t breed with humans, not even sterile offspring (debatable, but developer comments seem to hint at this) can be produced. That means Norn are not even a subspecies of humans anymore. Even in harsh conditions that would be an insanely fast evolution!

wouw.5837:

No, I mean players can decide: Do I help Palawa or do I stop him. in the coming months both groups do things to support there side, the winning side decides how elona turns out: a freed Elona or one dictated by Palawa.

While I personally love the idea, as I want to support Joko, but a lot of players don’t and this would make no one feel left out, it still generates the Factions problem. It splits the community in 2, something Anet wants to avoid at all cost. That’s why all the races are united against the EDs instead of fighting each other.

mercury ranique.2170:

People thought once the earth was flat. Lore bout origin-story’s and religion shouldn’t be taken for truth. So it is very much possible that the true origin of the humans lies in the same ancestor of the norn and the dwarves. The fact that they claim they where brought to Tyria by the gods means I respects the humans religious and philosophical believes in there, but I wont take it for granted scientificly.

True, but this is a fact we got outside of the game, in this interview with Ree Soesbee. She says: " I can say that they [the Seers] are one of the oldest races of Tyria, dating back long before the Gods brought the humans to the world".

So it’s not a theory or a religious believe the humans hold, it’s pretty much a fact. Now you could argue that the Norn evolved from the humans after they came to Tyria, but that’s just a few thousand years ago, you could only explain it with fastened magical evolution, which is a possibility, but I don’t think we have any indication for that. That humans look like rescaled versions of dwarves or Norn, could be either hint at them being a model for the Six Gods newest creation (if the gods even created the humans, we only know they brought them with them when they settled in Tyria) or that the gods arrived in Tyria way earlier when we thought and they abducted some dwarves to breed them into humans. Just random speculation though, maybe it’s even just a cosmic coincidence.

Possible, it’s unlikly though. Yes the Norn can turn into bears, but that’s just one of many forms for them, their default is a giant humanoid. This indicates that they were humanoids who learned to transfrom into animals.

I personally think the Norn are either related to the dwarves or the Jotun or maybe even both. The only thing we know for certain is that they are not related to the humans, since those came from a different world than Tyria.

Please use the search function, we had this topic 200 times. Besides that, Dwyana to Jormag doesn’t make sense, the big Jay has no connection to wind, air life or healing and Dwayna has no connection to frost (in before cold wind… yes then you could also say cold water = Lyssa). Lyssa to Kralkatorrik has no connection either, beside Snaff going into the ED’s mind, but that was because he was probably a mesmer, not because of the dragon’s connection to mental powers. Kormir to Deep Sea Dragon, how is Kormir in any way connected to water? Abaddon was, but Kormir isn’t.

Why does everyone see the need to connect the gods and the dragons? Because they are both powerful magical beings? So? What about the spirits of the wild, are they connected to the dragons or gods? If not, why?

AlexMc.2083:

If the refugees’ homes were destroyed it’s only logical to head to Hoelbrak. And I don’t think Braham is supposed to be a stereotypical norn.

For Norn who can’t fight yet or anymore, yes it is logical. For the the ones that are able to fight, it’s a little out of character to just pack everything and flee. The Norn of the past wouldn’t even let those Molten Alliance guys destroy their homes to beginn with, they would rather play “whack-a-mole” with them.
And I’m talking about making Braham a stereotypical Norn (as a common trait is not a stereotype, it’s just a common trait), I’m saying that he doesn’t behave like any Norn we’ve ever seen, which I just find odd. If you don’t, then it’s good for you. But it bugs me a little that he lacks something that is inherent in every Norn. Some may have lost it through age or a traumatic experience, Braham however is simply to young for that. It doesn’t make much sense to me personally.

Meh Game Over is longer to write so

1 UP

I didn’t mention them because the residents of Cragstead are the only Norn so far, that actually behave like Norn. 3 parts in and we finally get some Norn that act like Norn, with the exception of the main character Braham who I said is a out of character for a young Norn.

I take you don’t know anything about the Norn or their society then? It’s pretty clear how the Norn work mentally. The Norn we see in Living story so far however act more like humans than Norn.
They are afraid to loose their homes, they run away looking for aid. That’s the complete opposite of what Norn are know for. I can accept it though with thinking that those are mostly old Norn or small children that are fleeing (even though it doesn’t look so ingame) with the adults staying back to fight, like the Norn would.
Remember that it took most of the spirits of the wild to conivnce the Norn to flee from Jormag, why would they now flee on their own from a weaker foe?
It’s most apparent in Braham, who acts like a human would, not like a young Norn.

And yes of course the Norn can have different mind sets, but going out to proof your worth is the quintessential trait of the Norn. Take that away and you have a tall human (okay that’s an exaggeration, but you get my point).

I could see some freed Risen (by the forgotten ritual, seen in the Arah Forgotten path) joinging Palawa Joko.
Why? Simple, as an undead, I doubt they would be acceptet by other societies. They are mostly undead humans, yet I doubt Krytans would want them in their land, in Lion’s Arch people will hold a grude against them, as they suffered the most from Risen attacks next to the Sylvari. Who in turn are the only one I can see accepted the Risen, but not all.
Elona however is used to have undead as a part of it’s population, probably living in relative peace with them. And of course the undead are also the rulers of said continent, so they would be accepted there.
The second point is, undead in GW are prone to flock around more powerful undead. The Risen maybe a bit different from usual undead, but it’s still possible that they have this trait.

I’m not saying it’s not the logical thing to do, I’m saying it’s not something a young Norn would do. Young Norn don’t run on logic. Young Norn need no logic, they are young Norn.

I don’t like either very much. That doesn’t mean I dislike them though, they are both okay except for the fact that Rox looks ugly, she is a disgrace to her prideful race. And of course she is rather generic right now, but maybe she will get more development later (and an in-lore explanation for her mutant eyes!)

Braham on the other hand doesn’t feel all that Norn-y to me yet. I know he is still young, but he behaves way to non-adventurous for my taste. I would expect a young Norn like him to be eager to proof himself, yet he is cautious and even asks for the Charrs’ assistance. That seems out of place for a a young Norn. I believe such a behaviour from Eir since she is old and experienced, Braham however isn’t.

I also hope we find out the reason why dredge and flame legion forged this alliance soon and I pray that it is better than “Hey you are evil! I am evil too, let’s be evil together! huehuehue”

I really wonder why they even bothered with those weird dialog scenes to begin with, the cut-scenes are so much smoother and feel way more natural.

But his father is known, in fact he raised him. So his name should be Braham Borjesson.

We knew that before, from all the tanned Norn in LA, described in Edge of Destiny. Not sure if they are mentioned in GoA too.

The best GW2 song parody I’ve seen so far. I like Subject Alpha though, he is difficult but I still beat him with pugs on first try. Dodging his skills isn’t that hard, only that crystal is annoying as fudge.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If Eir was a child when Hoelbrak was under construction… well, I doubt that it was being built 50 years ago by old man Knut’s grandfather. And Eir is always called an old woman.

And I wouldn’t take looks honestly for age in Tyria. There are grandmother NPCs which look like they’re late 20s/early 30s – sometimes with graying hair.

Also, we don’t know how old norn can live to be if they don’t go die in adventures – and we know that Eir spent most of her time making sculptures rather than adventuring.

Hoelbrak under construction could simply mean that it wasn’t as big as it is today, so during the time Eir was a child it went from rather small homestead to the city like place it is today. I know Eir is supposed to be old, but only in relation to the other members of Destiny’s Edge. I think Knut calls her even young in the book, but I don’t remember it so well anymore.

In the life stream it was said that Braham is 17 years old. And Eir would be an amazing looking 120 year old, too amazing to be honest. I’d say she is around 50 if I had to make a guess.

Yeah the first time I laughed at the name, because well atleast to me, it sounds like the alliance being more about eating chocolate with pleasure, letting it melt on their tongue than anything with fire and lava. Well that was just the mental image I had, a Charr and a Dredge feeding each other chocolate. xP

Shagaz.6209:

My Charr: “Greetings soldier, tribune Rytlock sent me to help you inve… What is wrong with your face?!”
Rox: “:(”
MC: “Buahahahahaha!!!”
R: “:(((”
MC: “BUAHAHAHAHA!!!”
R: ‘hangs herself’
MC: ‘chokes to death’

true story

Thia.4891:

That being said, my (female) norn Ranger and my (female) human Mesmer are madly in love. They are both Lightbringers, so I would say their legend is pretty equal.

Tell me more…

/places pillow on his lap

I just wanted to point out that this would have been better:

First off, I have to say, it’s really hard to jump scare me, but this one did it. Suspecting nothing bad, I clicked on her pic yesterday to get a better look at the new NPC. “Wah.. shhi… what the…?” was my reaction. These eyes… these freakishly large eyes. Pure nightmare fuel.

Narcemus.1348:

All I am saying is, with the exception of Carys and Faolain are cool (which is kinda a double edged compliment since Faolain is kinda evil) you have not said one thing decent about the race while you have made dozens of insults against them. I think it’s time to just admit you don’t like them dude.

I ment that in the sense of, Faolain being an interesting character. She is not so much “I must torture for the evulz” like most other NCs are. Besides that, I made pretty clear that I’m not to fond of the Sylvari as they are now, in other words I don’t like them. That doesn’t mean I hate them. If they step away form being 2 dimensional they can be quiet interesting. Canach would be another interesting Sylvari NPC imo.

I personally loved my first 1/3 of the game, and that 1/3 was going through the Sylvari starter area/storyline. There was something so mystical/naive/fantasy about it that I really wish I could go back and see it again. It’s distinctly different from any other storyline and it honestly permanently endeared myself to the race.

Believe it or not, but I have played a Sylvari too. They have some interesting storylines and the jungle setting looks pretty neat. I like for example how it casually introduces the Sylvari’s pansexuality right at the beginning. But they are still pretty bland personality wise and therefore unintersting for me. Also I prefer “ugly on the outside- noble/good hearted on the inside” races, the Sylvari are too much “what you see is what you get” for me.

As to Trahearne and his appointment to Marshal (though I doubt anything I say will make any difference to yourself or your opinion on the matter.)

I said from the get go, it’ a matter of opinion. If you don’t mind the Mary-Sue-ish vibe from Trahearne or my alternate theory, that he didn’t just learn being a competent leader of a military organization in a few weeks, but is instead dependent on his good advisers and the player, then that’s fine for you, and I don’t argue that, because honestly there is no point in arguing over opinions. There is no right or wrong, it’s just different stand points. I for one am bothered by Trahearne being the Marshal, but I talked enough about this. That’s my opinion. You have a different one and that’ fine.

A Godzilla-like Kaiju battle between 2 ED’s that we lured into each other with an elaborate trick. Preferably Primordus and Jormag. *

• And some Canthans screaming their names and then running away. <3

Narcemus.1348:

I’m sorry BuddaKeks, it’s hard to even take what you write seriously because 98% of is is just pure hatred of anything sylvari. I can honestly see you right now running around burning down the pale tree and every sylvari in sight, which makes me take any opinion you seem to have and toss it. Even if we made a 100% sound argument for Trahearne’s ranking as Marshal, you would just ignore us and continue to mutter “burn all salad-heads” over and over again.

Contrary to your believe, I don’t actually hate the Sylvari, I just think they are boring, somewhat annoying, uncanny and I would have rather seen the Tengu as the last playable race. Comments on how the Pale Tree should be nuked are comical exaggerations. I thought the sheer stupidity of such remarks would be enough to show their true nature as jokes.
Also I don’t dislike NPCs because of the fact that they are Sylvari, it’s the other way round, I dislike the Sylvari because of the high amount of annoying or bland NPCs they produce (Trahearne, Tegwen, Sieran and so on). There are however Sylvari NPCs that I think are atleast decent, like Carys, or Faolain.
Last but not least, nothing in this thread has convinced me that Trahearne is in anyway even a good Marshal, not because he is a Sylvari, but because there was nothing said that makes me think he is a good Marshal. Heck in my opinion Caithe would be a better Marshal.
Anyway, please don’t run around and accuse people of fictional racism, because in my case, it couldn’t be further from the truth, as I approach it like a Norn, everyone is a blank slate, no matter where he comes from or how he looks, it’s his/her deeds that make the person.

Sinifair.1026:

But these events are not present in Guild Wars 1, where we are together with Vizier Khilbron. I take it that is what he’s doing when not with the character then?
- It is just that we are in the Crystal Desert in Guild Wars 1 but no charrs there.

I’m merely asking, BuddhaKeks.

They are, the sinking of Orr happens offscreen though. The Khilbron we meet is actually already an undead. He is the Undead Lich, not the living Vizier he used to be.

The thing, the player characters don’t know that at this point (a savvy player however does), so they trust him and see him as an ally when he really is the Flameseeker of the aptly named Flameseeker prophecy.

How is that lore breaking? The Charr actually attacked Orr, which in turn was sunk by Vizir Khilbron with his magic. Before the Charr could get to Orr, they first had to break through the Great Northern Wall in Ascalon, which they also did in GW1, the event is called the Searing.

The 100 years mentioned in the teaser trailer is also correct, as the great flood and the rising of Orr happened about 100 years prior to GW2’s starting time. About 150 years after Orr sunk in the first place.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . which then is no better because then it gets into Mary Sue for real.

Which is exactly what Trahearne is right now. Could that happen to other characters? Possibly, but if I look at GW2 right now, it’s pretty obvious that the Sylvari are the creator’s pet, so to speak. Just look at Caithe, the only “good” member of Destiny’s Edge, or how every NPC talks about Sylvari. You will hardly find anything negative about them, most of it is praise.

I don’t think he’s a “nice guy” so much. Polite? Yes. Nice . . . I find a hard time characterizing any sylvari as “nice”. They feel off. They feel like it’s not entirely their feelings, more like what they’re expected to say.

That’s why I put it in quotation marks. Though them feeling off, is not the word I would use, I would describe them as uncanny or even creepy.

I also think someone leading the orders who listens to them all and sifts for the pieces to use is perhaps very qualified to lead. Not from the front. (I attribute that to Trahearne’s inexperience, along with his fixation on “I must cleanse Orr” meaning he has to personally be putting himself at risk to do so.) Towards the end, he seems to get this and only puts himself in when it’s necessary. He has the good sense to stay out of Arah, after all.

You are assuming another leader would not listen to advises and I have to ask, why would you think that? Only because someone has experience in the subject himself, does not mean he is resistent to advise.

1. He’s not competent compared to, say, Forgal, Ogden, or Doenn . . . all three have considerably more experience with warfare in comparison. However, he seems competent enough to know when he needs to ask for advice. I think his big problem was a lack of confidence, which . . . was solved by what amounts to “his god” telling him “no, you can do this”.

And just because I said those three names? I don’t think they could lead. Forgal’s a little too reckless, Ogden’s a stone dwarf and probably not particularly interested, and Doenn’s dismissive of the other two orders’ potential at first.

2. I don’t see real evidence of him being a great leader in so far as actually making the plans. I see a lot . . . a lot of him adapting plans and using information he finds to piece together something. The best part of the assaults on Orr are carried out as individual plans by the orders and supporting crew (the split in the final chapter) or as a whole using different pieces of each order to reinforce each other (Straits of Devastation and the Temples).

1. What makes you think Ogden would be not interested in being the leader of the Pact? The entire purpose of his post-ritual race is to fight the EDs. I would rather say he isn’t the best choice because he is never shown to be a military leader. In EotN he was more of a scholar/diplomat. It was his job to find allies for the dwarven army, not command them into battle. You are right on Forgal and Doenn I guess, but there are more competent people around.

2. I don’t see Trahearne’s leading skills as something special. There are more characters that have these traits and more. You seem to be under the impression that Trahearne’s ability to listen to the ideas of other people is something only he could do. But it isn’t. In fact if he blindly listens to everything, that acutally makes him a bad leader, as someone could give him ill advice and he wouldn’t even know. That’s why you need someone who actually knows how to deal with warfare. Trahearne got lucky that he had competent advisers and the player, without them he would have been fertilizer after 1 week.
This again leads me back to my point. Trahearne is kind of pointless in his role, because he is not qualified to fulfill it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If it was the US armed forces? You’d probably have the Air Force actually first in line rather than the Army, and the commander-in-chief is still the same. Who would probably not be a military leader. This is why I hate real world analogies. They do not translate well 100% of the time.

If the mission was to be a long-term one? Two commanders who hold different times they’re in clear command. In matters of combat, one commander. In matters of peace and civil matters? Another commander. We could go on about this, but I don’t see a point to it and it’s hideously off topic.

On topic?

I maintain Trahearne can handle this leadership due to two reasons: the respect of the three orders who know he knows a lot about Orr and the Risen . . . and the fact he is willing to listen to their input. He doesn’t need to be all-knowing and a perfect military tactician.

Yeah Air Force would have probably more accurate but you got the point. And I talked about the commander of said operation, which in fact be a member of the military, even if the president of the US would be legally the head of the mission, but I could be wrong, I don’t have any deeper knowledge on the command structure of the US.

And now you going down to opinion. It’s you opinion that Trahearne is good enough to be the leader, but logically there are better choices. Not saying his knowledge about Orr isn’t a crucial factor for the operation, but that alone and him being a “nice guy” who listens to his advisers, does not make him a good choice.
And now if go back to my original point: Trahearne is the wrong choice for the position for obvious reasons, yet no one seems to notice that in universe, which I gave 2 possible explanations for:
1. He really isn’t competent, but he manages to hide that fact. This unfortunatly rather common in leading positions.
2. He suddenly really is a great leader out of nowhere, for no logical reason and therefore is badly written.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Now you’re just being insulting to the army, and those who lead. Not to mention Commanders who actually can pull off hard decisions in WvW and have them not blow up in their faces.

I can’t argue against that because that is actually my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s your opinion about competency. Experience? Experience he possibly does not have, but then again . . . from a position of my own experience, you can get a lot of mileage from surrounding yourself with experienced people and listening to their advice.

Competence: Someone who has actually studied the art of war. Trahearne according to himself is just a historian. Now that’s not a bad thing, considering my father is a historian, my brother is a historian and I’m gonna be one in the future myself. But does that give me or my family the ability to command an army? Of course not. I did it countless times in video games, but that does not mean I could do it in real life. Same applies to Trahearne. He has no edication in that field, even if he studied Orr’s military history, that does not mean he can lead an army.

He makes the decisions because he is the last word to say “let’s do this plan then”. It’s his word that is “go”. That’s what I mean, and that’s usually what is meant when it’s said he makes the decision. He bears that responsibility.

Then why do we need him? If all he does is say: “Let’s do this!” And why does he even get credit? Sure every army needs some one who calls the shots. But how can someone decide which plan is the best if he has no idea about the substance? Which is why he let’s the player decide so often, according to my thesis. He simply has no freaking clue what to do.

Again. Competence in leadership is not being the genius, not being able to always make the right decisions. Competence in leadership is knowing when to listen to those who advise you, and when to tell them it’s time to listen. Not coming up with every plan, not knowing all the answers, and not putting all the pieces together doesn’t make Trahearne any less of a leader.

What makes him the leader are two qualities which are perhaps the most important. The willingness to commit to an action with all the forces necessary to carry it out, and the humility to carry responsibility for that decision. You may see that humility only during one part of the story.

But he does not show that willingness until later. In this war is simply too much at stake to let someone lead that doubts himself. It’s not like a prophecy that says, he is the chosen one. No, it’s just the Pale Tree saying he can do it. Why, in the name of the Realm of Torment, would the Orders of Tyria even listen to a freaking tree? By all logic, no intelligent soldier would ever in a million years choose Trahearne as the leader. Even if they trust him. The job is too important to be filled with someone as him. Unless of course he doesn’t actually do anything, and is only their to look good and smile into the “camera”. In which case he would not deserve to get any credit at all, except for the few things he actually does. Mostly public relations. And it’s his ritual that cleanses Orr, I give him that. But again, cleansing Orr could have been done by him without being the Marshal.

You make a good point, though “need” is once again incorrect. You would like it to have a military leader. It’s possible the Vigil would also like it to be a military leader, but the Priory and the Order of Whispers wouldn’t have much place in such a hierarchy. They are not soldiers. They are scholars and sneaks.

We could keep naming who could lead, and I could point out it’s equally possible to put it on Rytlock Brimstone. . . or Logan Thackeray. Or Knut Whitebear. Or Countess Anise. You could come up with a case for any of them and have it sound legitimate. Heck, I bet if I really tried I could come up with reasoning that Kudu would be ideal to lead.

Again, it’s a military operation. If you go by logic, you would want someone with military competence and experience to lead you, even if you are a scholar or an agent. Compare it like this. The USA get’s attacked by aliens. The US army, the CIA and the NASA want to strike back. Only one can be the leader of this military operation. Who would they choose, a guy who studied xeno-biology, a guy who is really good in sneaking behind enemy lines, or a veteran general who commaneded armies his whole life?
All of those skills are valuable, but only of them is capable of commanding the attack force, so you would choose him, by logic. The other ones can be his advisers sure, but they should not be the commanders, because they simply aren’t as good in the job as the actual general.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Regardless, very well, totally misunderstood you but still willing to “play”.

I said, we can not know if Trahearne actually comes up with his plans himself or if he just steals them. Story wise it would only make sense if he takes other peoples work and claims it to be his own. If it is his work, than we have a bad case of character development, because he goes from scholar who never took command, not even fought in a war, to tactical genius in the matter of weeks.

There’s actually very little tactical genius in the plans, the plans as a whole are very simple and just happen to work because the player character is there to keep them on the rails. When the player is not there (say, you wind up with “Air Drop” instead of “Armor Guard”) things very quickly fall apart.

Far as I can tell, the Orders come up with the plans, present them to Trahearne, who then takes the information and plans into account before making a decision. Such as the three avenues you can take in Orr (by land, by sea, by air), and the options which lead to the Cathedral of Silence or that boatwreck elsewhere.

Please note, this is about on par with other tactical-level decisions in the real world. “Genius” and “failure” is generally separated by whether or not it works. If it works? Genius, inspired, wonderful. If it fails? Obviously not tactically sound. Something can be very simple in planning and work perfectly . . . and it can be planned down to the phase of the moon and fail spectacularly because something got missed.

If tactical decisions were so easy to make, you’d just any everyday man and set him on the top of an army. He starts giving very simple orders (“go take that city”) and the soldiers figure the rest out.
But it doesn’t work that way. Even seemingly simple operation need a whole lot of, information gathering, planning and some competent experienced people who know what they are doing. Trahearne is no such individual.
Yet people insist that he makes all the tactical decisions and that’s why he is needed as the Marshal. Again, my argument is, if he is in fact that competent leader, then it proves how much of a badly written Mary-Sue he is. If he is not the one coming up with these plans, then he is atleast more believable, but at the time he is useless, as he does nothing, yet get’s credited as very important. There is simply no reason in making him the leader of the pact, when his only 2 qualifications are, that he is not member of one of the orders and that he know his stuff about Orr. This should make him an adviser to the Pact real leader, not the leader itself.
The Pact is a military organization, needing a military leader. Is that the player? Not necessarily, but some one like Magnus the Bloody Handed for example could have worked. Zhaitan is a direct threat to his city, he is known to have taking action against the Risen (in EoD) and he is an experienced leader and sailor who also was never attached to any of the Orders.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

@Tobias Trueflight: I was talking about the plans Trahearne comes up with, not the actual execution of those plans, as that would be impossible to take credit for.

Really?

I got a screenshot for that too.

Nice screen, but that has still nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Try again please.

Okay, since you keep moving the goalpost, explain what you want to prove? Because from your post I quoted, you said this:

“He does nothing but taking the credit of other peoples work. "

. . . which, you know, I showed you it wasn’t so. You wanted to change that to:

“@Tobias Trueflight: I was talking about the plans Trahearne comes up with, not the actual execution of those plans, as that would be impossible to take credit for.”

. . . so I bring up at least one instance where he doesn’t make the plan, he asks you to choose a course and he’ll follow your lead. Which, mind you, is not the first time he asks you to choose what you think is the most important plan (even if all three are followed in their own time).

So, let me propose you post a screenshot of him taking credit for a plan which wasn’t his. And if you use “naming Fort Trinity” after already excusing it, I won’t know what to say since you’ll have moved the goalposts yet again.

I haven’t moved any goalposts, you just don’t understand what I was talking about, you just picked sentences out of their context, refusing to look at my argument, probably because you were so eager to disprove me that you didn’t think about what I actually wrote.

I said, we can not know if Trahearne actually comes up with his plans himself or if he just steals them. Story wise it would only make sense if he takes other peoples work and claims it to be his own. If it is his work, than we have a bad case of character development, because he goes from scholar who never took command, not even fought in a war, to tactical genius in the matter of weeks.

If you think one or the other is true is for you to decide and it’s probably just his bad writing, but I went under the assumption that he is better written when we migth think and in this case the only possible explanation is, that he is a liar and fraud. Now keep posting you screens, because it amuses me how little they have to do with my argument.

Well there is an old german saying that goes: “If it does not fit, make it fit.” /cough