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Virtues

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

On paper, virtues do a TON!…..but in actual play I agree, I hardly notice them.


VoJ passive provides, in essence, an additional hit of damage the primary form of keeping both of our damage modifier traits active.

In reality, VoJ is not noticed because of condition layering/priority/over abundance in combat. I don’t need my own personal burn since there are plenty of other sources of conditions and burning available.

The extra hit also only scales with condition damage, so when our melee attacks go up to 1k-5k damage hits, our extra burning tick only does about 300-500, and start to contribute less to the overall picture.

More frequent burns will not fix this problem, as burning only ticks once per a second, so you can’t push out “more” damage per hit without increasing condition damage.

Yet changing it to a physical attack would make it susceptible to direct damage mitigators such as armor and blinds and such.

The intent of the mechanic is to give us more damage when passive, and to give the group more damage when active.

Possibly having it stack might on proc or provide 10% more damage when passive would help achieve the offensive idea in a way that can scale to different variables instead of just a static burn. I feel fury would be decent, but mostly overlooked in the long run with plentiful ways to achieve fury or crit chance.


VoR is amazing on paper and the single source of sustain for guardians………but damage happens way faster than VoR ticks for, and again we don’t notice if it is on or off.

We want to avoid doing like healing signet and making it seemingly overpowered, but I think the mechanic is in the right mindset but could use more tweaking to work for players with less healing power but not be overpowered for players with tons of healing power.

The intent of this mechanic is to provide sustain and make up for our lower health pool. Possibly change it to replenish a percentage of incoming damage as a heal? Or leave it as is but increase the base healing done, but keep the healing power coefficient decently low.

Actively it should provide the group with needed recovery or sustain. Yet it on its own, is largely ignored as a heal. The biggest advantage of this skill is the traited condition removal and not the ability itself.

It’s active could probably use some looking at too, ignoring traited modifiers that make it worthwhile.


VoC is pretty much worthless as noted in earlier posts. Especially in PvP where incoming damage happens so frequently it is wasted away in meaningless attacks.

Having it proc every “x” incoming hits would provide some interesting defense, but that may prove too powerful.

The intent on this mechanic sort of blends in with the intent of VoR. To provide a defensive way to survive a fight, yet not through sustaining health, but instead by preventing damage in the first place.

I think the best way to provide passive defense by mitigation of damage would be to have it reduce incoming damage by x% while passive but keep the active as a group wide aegis. Additionally reduce the refresh time of this to make it actually usable, something like 30-60 second?

Sorry for wall of text Tying to reduce the visual impact of my post by hiding it under spoilers…but hope someone actually reads it :p

(edited by CMF.5461)

Zealous Blade

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

For the argument about mechanics stopping it from scaling with power, some what of a simple fix, that is doable with traits:

“Gain Healing power based on your Power”
(Power converted to Healing Power: x%)

Then you can adjust either the power/healing power conversion and or the healing power coefficient of zealous blade itself.

Replace Kindled Zeal with that trait possibly, or lump it together with another trait…possibly even automatically put it in Zealous Blade itself… but the point of builds is to sacrifice some things to gain others, so that might not be a wanted change.

Leaked Balance Patch Notes

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

This…..this is what we have been begging for. “Changes” not just tooltips and visuals, but attempts to evolve and update the class.

Now are they good or bad changes? Are they OP or UP? That is to be determined, but I appreciate any honest attempt at looking at the class and trying to make fixes and changes, not just the junk we have seen over the last year.

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

edited to include powerful blades:

Just butting in for the sake of clarity and being nitpicky, but the damage modifiers are multiplicative so it ends up being:
(scholar, fiery wrath, radiant power, powerful blades unscathed contender, power of the virtuous assuming max boons, sigil of force or dungeon/time/monster specific)

1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.09 * 1.05 = 2.01

Or 201% damage modifier.

Assume crits with a baseline of 150% of damage and food/berserker alone puts you at an extra 89% crit damage

2.01 * 2.39 = 4.8

or 480% extra damage potential on crits?

201% and 480% extra damage is much more than doing it additive.

If you did then it would be about 74% on non-crits and 440% on crits, if I did that right?

Someone clarify if I did that wrong because I got slammed for doing it additive before and was corrected.

so 3000 damage before modifier and 6030 damage after. 14400 if it is a crit.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Hammer DPS and other weapons

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Like you said, of course, the extra ticks vastly jumps the dps up to about

7417 with 15/25/0/20/10

and

7954 with 25/0/15/20/10 (at a loss of blind on kill utilities and crit chance, which in realistic gameplay hurt the dps even more without crits).

So the one you mentioned, 15/25/0/20/10 would work better in real play.


edit:

meh, I keep inadvertently building the meta 20/25/0/0/25 as I follow the damage mods and weapon synergies of blinds :p

Hammer seems good at first, but the synergies only really work with one weapon, and just the last half of the rotation.

Mace and staff are not sufficient.

Sword/GS/Scepter/Hammer are all the go to “damaging weapon”, with GS/Sw having the most synergy together and with the traits available in tandem with the damage modifiers.

It just makes total sense, build wise, and it gets hard to think outside of that box looking for something maybe better.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Hammer DPS and other weapons

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

by the numbers “for hammer” it looked like it produced the most dps “for hammer”, I think the dps test video was all the same spec but with different weapons and gear.

The point is to expand on that previous test, but yeah he did show the approximate weapon differences and I remember that video.

If you don’t want to contribute that is cool to,just expanding on previous work is all.

Just looked at link, different one that I thought I saw. One I watched I think it was obal’s 60k+ whirling wrath and other weapons.

I remember when he started it, some people commented that the effective power calc on gw2 build craft that he originally used was inconsistent, but I think this one accommodated for that?

I wanted to do the math behind it too so :p I approached it from a different angle.

The honor 20 point, while yes it increases symbol up time for extra ticks, I didn’t consider it, and should go back and see what the dmg would be with it. Good call.

15/25/0/20/10 would increase the ticks on symbol, but then you lose about 100 power and a 10% damage mod.

I want to test that against maybe

25/15/0/20/10 maybe? Maintain power, but still lose a 10% damage mod.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Hammer DPS and other weapons

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFASEChUIZFKQbGAEAUzAfinrCUEA-jwBBYfAUBAZmFRjt4qIas6aYKXER12bFRrWKgIWGB-e

After the previous discussions this past week, I went on a theory crafting tangent and came up with some interesting numbers.

I tried to maximize the potential damage of other weapons beyond gs/sw+fo, and I have come to appreciate the hammer auto attack for it’s consistent pressure and apparently high dps.

Tried a few variations with and without certain damage modifiers and attack power levels.

Some of the numbers it “can” do, assuming everything crits (which it won’t at 55% crit chance alone.)

Attack duration/refresh – 3.25 (5.25 counting 2 after ticks, but it blends into next cycle)
Total Damage – 22,264

Hammer Swing – 4,002
Hammer Bash – 4,502
Symbol of Protection Hit – 5,503
Symbol of Protection Ticks – 8,255 (2751 × 3)

Approximate DPS – 6,850 (4,240 if you just count 1 rotation and 2 after ticks)

Now the real answer is, sure this looks like it does good dps, but dps isn’t everything. So what support does it bring?

Well, you have to sacrifice VoR condition cleanses and pick between faster consecration refresh or 20% aegis damage mod instead of being able to pick both. Other than that, you get pretty much everything else that the current meta build brings, minus the weapon blinds/blocks.

You also pick up “perma” protection for what it’s worth if your group members happen to stand in it as well.

The burst damage is not in the same department as a GS whirling wrath though, but it should have good, if not better sustained dps than sword auto. If anything, you are still able to use GS as a weapon swap to maintain the burst dps. Scepter is also obtainable with 10% scepter damage trait if needed.

Sorry, no AH :p I couldn’t fit it in there while maintaining high damage. I guess you could drop 20 out of radiance, lose crit chance and 10% on condition’ed targets if you REALLY wanted to, but yeah we will leave it at that.

This is not a “my build is better” thread, just theory crafting. Wondering if anyone has done max dps theory test on other weapons…..or am I going to have to do them?

All just for fun and looking for new, out of the box thinking if you all have some

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Interesting watching the evolution of your solo kills, from scepter (they are right, your scepter play was bad ><), to melee ah, to dps melee, and now the current meta build.

You didn’t even have wall of reflection on the first solo with scepter and it was painful to watch the adds swarm on you as you tried to smite them/kite them :p

So AH scepter with soldriers gear – 37 minutes
AH melee with soldiers gear – 29 minutes
DPS melee with zerker gear – 9.5 minutes

The soldiers gear was about 3 times slower than the zerker gear.

The only thing that would round out this whole thread is someone posting a ah melee with zerker gear solo and time :p

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

just came in to +1 hybrid, continue * eats popcorn *

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

So for the first 6-8 months we couldn’t finish any dungeons because AH was the primary build guardians used and the game was just awful because nothing ever died because it out healed our dps??!? Or was it just as capable in a fight, albeit not as optimal and fast?

Also, the point of AH is that scales badly with healing power, so you actually want to use dps gear with it.

Players should not use AH to tank, but to “sustain” in normal combat. If the fights do not finish before other resources do, because of bad dps, gear, dodging, then having this cushion helps them.

I’m trying to agree with you guys that meta is good and the ideal way to play, In fact I run meta. Yet at the same time I acknowledge that it isn’t the “only” way to do it….

This is the whole contention. The fact that someone does not “min/max” and dares to play “your” game incorrectly. How narrow minded and unoriginal, but I can’t please everyone though, so I fold.

Enjoy lording over everyone else with your magical internet kitten of greatness. I hope many phat lewtz and fast runz come your way. Woe be the noobz who cross your path, for their lives cut short and their dreams do shatter.

Stand TALL among those who have fallen, feel great and walk forward…tall…proud….a shining example to all humanity that greatness is in your grasp, for you are able to do what someone else has told you to do, and guard it well with blind eyes and deaf ears. Go onward, brainless and unafraid, spew forth the words that others have given to you and speak! spread the glory yet to unfold that is your legacy!

….ok I’m done being sarcastic, I gotta remember this is the internet and not to try to reason with people.

[DnT] Fractal Video Guide (Guardian)

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

!!!! eats popcorn and enjoys cliffhangers

Is this going to be a trilogy?

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

notabot, I also endorse and encourage the meta build, but this isn’t what the previous discussion was about.

In the event that someone is incapable or unwilling to run the meta build, then what alternatives are there? If the issue is dying a lot more than attacking, then many players flock to self sustain abilities.

Enter the statement: “Dead dps is no dps”.

Then the argument went from zerker meta can do more dead than cleric AH. After some quabbling, I attempted to put context into the discussion with the so called for math. My attempt was to show zerker meta versus zerker AH, and then to try to quantify how close or far away a dead dps is to a lower consistent dps in “theory”.

End result was it depends on the parameters you set, and those can be skewed in favor of either argument.

This was responded back with a “you mad bro” and then enter you. A lot of other reading and tangents that you apparently did not look at, but you are taking the discussion/argument to a whole different place and backtracking a lot, just fyi.

Meta is optimal, if you can’t you can do just fine mixing it up, but you won’t be optimal. If that is alright with the player who is uncomfortable with meta, then that is their choice.

My only reason for jumping in is to pull away from the argument and add context to the statements being used. Again, I endorse and encourage people to run the meta, and I agree with the others who say to try the meta. I simply disagree with the disdain and hate being spewed from some people.

If that still does not work, you are not “drastically and grievously” wrong for doing something else that it should offend others because you are a horrible spot of filth on this world and you should be ashamed of yourself….

No you just need to adjust some things so that you feel comfortable and capable in your own play.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

sigh

If you want to use math, then use numbers based on facts and not things arbitrarily made up.

Here is a list of potential damage modifiers based on trait points and power, considering both are wearing full zerker with scholars and wielding the greatsword and doing a whirling wrath, not counting bolts. (We can do sword too, but figured I would do the damage based off of whirling wrath cause people like to see that).

I also gave some leeway to the builds that would use empowering might and simulated 5 stacks of might on those ones specifically when totaling the power.

Keep in mind this does not take into account crit chance or sustained dps and real fight conditions, so these are just for the numbers and not to based your actual game play on.

The worst build that I mashed together did about 60% of the damage of the most optimal build a difference of 30% loss in damage (just for whirling wrath…not sustained dps or combat effectiveness).

So theoretically if a sucky build is 30% less effective than an optimal build, and an optimal build will do 10 “dps”, then a sub optimal build should do 6 “dps” or 60% of 10.

If the optimal build dies in 15 seconds, then in order for the sub-optimal build to out damage the optimal build they have to be alive and continue fighting for a total of 25 seconds.

The “best” AH build I have listed does 76% of the optimal damaging build with a difference of 24%.

So same scenario 76% of 10 = 7.6
10*15=150 damage done in 15 seconds
7.6*20=152 damage done in 20 seconds

You can pick and choose the duration of fight and length of time alive, to skew results any which way you please.

TLDR:
The point is/was that the meta is not “the most damaging” but it retains an optimal amount of damage while providing support and maintains, just enough survivability to finish most encounters.

If you find that survivability is not enough for your specific playstyle/group/reaction time, then adjust accordingly, but understand what you are sacrificing in team play in order to gain in self play.


30/0/15/0/25

  • power – 2469
  • dmg mod – 4.875263732
  • WW – 13240.72877

20/25/0/0/25

  • power – 2368
  • dmg mod – 4.587354456
  • WW – 11949.14089

25/0/30/5/10

  • power – 2418
  • dmg mod – 4.3062327
  • WW – 11453.71774

25/25/20/0/0

  • power – 2418
  • dmg mod – 4.180700948
  • WW – 11119.82838

20/25/15/0/10

  • power – 2368
  • dmg mod – 4.2597324
  • WW – 11095.75096

10/25/0/25/10

  • power – 2268
  • dmg mod – 4.40899074
  • WW – 10999.5501

30/25/15/0/0

  • power – 2468
  • dmg mod – 3.72726585
  • WW – 10118.78133

10/25/25/0/10

  • power – 2268
  • dmg mod – 4.024944
  • WW – 10041.43029

20/0/30/20/0

  • power – 2543
  • dmg mod – 3.58852725
  • WW – 10038.18728

15/25/30/0/0

  • power – 2318
  • dmg mod – 3.7594095
  • WW – 9585.742343

0/20/30/20/0

  • power – 2343
  • dmg mod – 3.10695
  • WW – 8007.542235

crapgame, please don’t respond anymore if spoj retorts one more time, I won’t and its not productive for any of us. I probably shouldn’t have even put forth the effort I did in this post and let it die, but I was tired of the made up numbers

(edited by CMF.5461)

[DnT] Fractal Video Guide (Guardian)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

!!! <enticed

[DnT] Fractal Video Guide (Guardian)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Kind of curious how/why the warrior guide would have frustrated and turned off the others, but maybe those are politics we should leave off of the forums

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Wow….this is still going on? My math response was kind of tongue and cheek honestly.

I advocate the meta, it does what it is supposed to do.

Additionally I recognize that not all players are capable or like to run the meta, so I understand when people look for alternatives, and don’t question them. Instead I try to help with as little bias as possible.

Lastly, I spend more time on spread sheets and build calculators than I do in the game lately, because I like to theory craft and maybe find the “new” meta or something to that effect. So new ideas are welcome to me and problem sets that need an out of the box answer are fun to figure out.

All in all, I think we have exhausted this thread and are in need of a lock

[DnT] Fractal Video Guide (Guardian)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Once again, good break down of each fight in fractals. The effort and information you put forward helps a lot of people. +1

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Why is it multiplication >_>

Cause damage modifiers are multiplicative not additive

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

So am I doing double dps when I don’t die on my dps spec?

1 * 1 = 1
1 * 0 = 0

greatsword (a terrible weapon for pvp)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

gs is a bursty weapon, hammer is a sustained dps weapon. Sword is a sustained dps weapon as well.

GS is also more “mobile” than hammer.

Reason most go gs/sw+fo is because of mobility and burst.

But yes, gs is easy to predict

Is AH build viable? Alternative?

in Guardian

Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

TLDR
My attempt to keep close to the meta while giving back “some” self survival via regen/shout and dodge heals:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAsdRlUgyC3FSIEfIFRWBRazAgHsSR8uH+BMC-jgBBYfCiUBBKzsIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqWKgIWGB-e


Trying to pull opinions out of it and just supply mechanics and facts…

Survival mechanics on guardian:

Altruistic Healing

  • Group oriented.
  • Only heals self, requires frequent application of boons on multiple allies to be effective.
  • Hammer and Mace symbols innately work well with this but require group members be in range of symbols and to utilize them.
  • Empowering Might and higher crit chance helps augment this, and opens up more mobility and range of group members up to a radius of 240 (still somewhat small, about as big as traited symbol radius but moves as you move).
  • Does not give more or less support to allies, but enhances self gain from supporting allies with boons.
  • Does not need a lot of healing power to make it effective.

Monk’s Focus

  • Solo oriented.
  • Gain self heals from utilization of meditation utilities.
  • Removes almost all group utility skills and replaces them with more offensive oriented abilities to be effective.
  • More often used to be mobile in combat due to teleports available and to recover from burst damage received.
  • Does not need a lot of healing power to make it effective.

Writ of the Merciful

  • Symbols heal self and allies per tick
  • Limited effectiveness based on weapons frequency of symbol application.
  • Scales decent with healing power, but fairly weak without it.
  • Layers well with multiple healing sources/traits.

Selfless Daring

  • Heals self and surrounding allies on dodge roles
  • Synergies well with higher crit chance due to gaining Vigorous Precision in the same tree (high uptime of Vigor boon).
  • Scales well with healing power, depending on if pve or pvp/wvw, but decent without it.

Virtue of Resolve

  • Basic form of self survival for guardian.
  • Can be traited to tick on allies at heavy investment of trait points.
  • Scales poor with healing power and still fairly weak without it.
  • Long cooldown if used actively instead of left passive.
  • Traits provide it with more group utility if used actively, such as: regeneration, condition cleanse, retaliation.
  • Layers well with multiple healing sources/traits.

Regeneration

  • Available to guardians in high to moderate frequency via weapons or shouts/virtues.
  • Scales well with healing power, but fairly weak without it.
  • Not unique to the guardian, and others may apply more frequently or with better ticks, depending on gear/traits.
  • Layers well with multiple healing sources/traits.

With all of the above supplied, you can attempt to pick and choose which ones you may be able to integrate into your own build with consideration to play style.

Keep in mind that considering current game play mechanics, healing is meant to be self oriented and survival is meant to be gained through active gameplay. Anything else is purposefully inferior though intent of game designers.

Higher damage, and shorter fight times is beneficial to all players in terms of survival and general ease of playing, due to limited resources such as dodges, control effects, and active self heals.

Group utility and boons are typically a much better way to assist each other over healing because players can stack boons to a much higher rate and frequency and achieve much higher stats and damage than when alone. So take into consideration what you can bring to a group to help play as a whole.

Typically guardian group utility is seen as condition removal, stability, projectile reflects, blocks, retaliation, and some heals. To a lesser extent we can provide decent might stacking as well.

So bring which ever group utility you deem needed in the area of play that you are in.

The current PvE meta tries to supply the most group utility while maintaining optimal damage. Self survival is gained through shorter fights and better group play. Results may be dependent on the effectiveness of the group as a whole.

AH is often seen as negative because it in itself brings less to the group and more to the guardian. It also soaks up a lot of trait points so you lose availability to other traits that could increase damage or group utility. Although it can be said that dead dps is no dps.

A bit long, but I hope the information helps you make your own decisions.

(edited by CMF.5461)

does protection effect condition damage?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I always thought it would be interesting if retaliation ticked off of condition damage. I got yelled at by other players though saying that would be OP and kill off condition classes.

Dynamic Events too frequent?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

An interesting idea would be to flag individuals who assisted the original defend event. Then tailor the following event to check to see if flagged players are still in the area and prevent that previous event from happening again (to keep a sense of advancement).

Either that event can be on hold to the players left or delayed another 10-20 minutes till it activated again.

Or even better yet, it will spawn a new event in reaction to a successful defend or claiming of a point.

  1. You clear a camp of centuars
  2. Centaurs build up forces to try to reattack and you successfully defend
  3. Reports of centaurs reaching out to the local grawl camp to try to overthrow the human camp, so you are asked to kill the centaur diplomat
  4. If you don’t kill the diplomat, the next defend event will have centaurs and grawl attacking, with more inclined chance at veterans

Something that expands like this with a branching point. If you do kill the diplomats, then maybe the camp starts to flourish and more merchants are added to the camp with special karma items like skins or fun items.

Or maybe recon type missions start to pop up in the camp asking players to go out and scout the area, with periodic centaur and/or grawl attacks on the camp.

There is a lot more that can be done than what we are seeing, and I hope they see that they have to evolve what they have and not keep it so static.

Is Guardian still meta? Why or Why not?

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CMF.5461

I do see Proven’s point about survivability and support together is powerful, but I am tentative to say that it is overpowered.

Guardian’s enable others to perform better, but don’t exactly perform themselves. That becomes a hard thing to measure as far as effectiveness when playing the guardian because all you do is stay alive and you don’t know if it is helping or not (for conquest it helps for sure as the goal is to contest a point).

I am afraid that the guardian would just get rolled way to easy if some of those suggested changes were made as far as the condition removal and the lack of stability, because without survivability the guardian pretty much has nothing.

The side effect is that every ability the guardian tends to use is all group related. Even the signets which no one uses, have group related effects on use.

As far as offensive guardians, I am yearning for real improvements to be made to make them useful. Yes they can do damage, no they can’t stick to anything (mobility), and they lack almost all survivability possible to obtain that dps, partly due to class mechanics and low base HP.

If the guardian offensive build became more viable to meta, do you think we would see less bunker guards as options open up? Or is the specific role as a guardian with stability/condition removal and some group healing the one and only reason people want guardians.

I see guards have a role, but I feel forced into that role by trait and class mechanics and when you try to expand yourself it often times falls short of the mark that everyone else is at.

So we seem to be at a point where either buff others to be as good as guardians or nerf guardians to allow others to be as good as guardians.

But without this role, I really feel guardians have nothing at all…yet I don’t see them being compensated at all, based on all the class changes and patches over the last year.

Is Guardian still meta? Why or Why not?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I do agree that being forced to take a class is a measure of it being too good at something.

We do also have to realize that players drive the meta. Perceptions and opinions are hard to break, so even if there is an alternative, we don’t like change and like to stick with what we know.

I play a guardian as well, and I am on the slightly differing opinion that guardians are continuously falling further and further behind. I also think they are not “as” good as people say, and meditation guard is “ok” but I am never afraid of one as I am with some other classes.

Bunker is one of the few things guard can do well, but if it is the best is up for some debate.

Maybe it is an instance of seeing everyone else changing and advancing versus guards staying stagnant for so long. But the popular opinion is that is a good thing because it shows we are “balanced”.

I do see lots of things wrong with the traits and synergies of a guard though, but I’m sure these are abundant in all the other classes too.

The best reason I heard why guards are still so stable was the group utility such as a ready supply of group: stability, might, condition cleanse, and retaliation. Others can bunk as well, but they tend to be more selfish bunkers versus team bunkers.

Good feedback though, I appreciate it.

Is Guardian still meta? Why or Why not?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

edited because “I can’t logic” and asked same thing twice…

Just wondering if team tournament players feel guardian is still meta or not.

If they are, what do you think will change that and why do you think they hold such a pivotal position?

If they are not, then what areas are they lacking that would make them more applicable to the meta again?

If you main a guardian, mention that too please, as opinions and points of view differ based on perspective.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I can’t recreate it in pve (sterile environment) at the moment. Possibly I reflexively threw down a line of warding and it caused an interrupt and I didn’t realize it. Ignoring that anomaly for now.

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

No, was inconsistent. Didn’t use any knockdowns/backs or interrupts at all but would randomly generate a 5 stack. I’ll keep testing to see if I can figure it out while I have them.

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

The confusion duration on the runes do indeed seem to be broken and do nothing, sad to say.

Only getting 8-ish seconds of up time when I should be getting 10 on a 100% confusion duration (without 30% from runes only have 70% duration 5*1.7=8.5 seconds). Waste of money, oh well!

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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CMF.5461

It does, because the confusion uptime is what I was going for the most. I will test that to see how long the duration actually is with and without a full set in a few. It is really easy to get 100% confusion duration with a couple changes if you have both rune bonuses, but if they are broken, it is even more pointless than you originally indicated.

I’m more and more dissatisfied with the staff after the previous symbol change. To put salt on the wounds I recently leveled a warrior and with signet of rage and a banner, I can have perma swiftness and regeneration or fury with no effort at all.

I may morph the build into a meditation gs, sw/fo build just for the teleports and travel. Our travel speed is pretty abysmal alone, but I know there were threads upon threads about that previously, so trying to not start it up again. Just something I’m noticing.

How are others coping with our travel speed? I haven’t played my guard since around Halloween.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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CMF.5461

Because I “heart” you guys, I dished out money for the runes. I had all the rest of the gear already from a previous build test.

I’ll report back in a few days with my feelings on it in actual play.

AAAnnd I goofed, had “apothecary” gear in bank and put the perplexity runes on it…oh well testing with that instead of shaman. :p

This is what I had laying about to test it out with:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNApfWlUgqCXGyLEf4ESmCRCBxUgRf01DH6hYIA-jACBoMCik0g0HBKPqIasl1FRjVrjIqWfEzrgIqWKAIWWB-e

Not optimal but should be close enough.


Initial reactions are a surprise, tanky yes…but need more work on execution.

The surprise for me is that confusion applies on your attacking hit, not on “being” hit. So it is offensively applied not defensively.

Also I would randomly apply a stack of 5 without doing any obvious interrupts. Unsure on how that happens. When I do survive, as expected, people run away when they realize they are hurting themselves. After that I have no reliable way of catching them, especially after the symbol of swiftness change a few months back.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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CMF.5461

Good input, thank you.

I kept the 6 slot perplexity for the increased duration and also toyed around with the idea of interrupts via wards or even interrupts with hammer or shield. I think hammer would fit the interrupt role best, but was wanting “some” mobility so went with staff as a next best thing.

Alternate runes may be 2 slot 10% condition duration, or -10% condition duration.
For extra healing power can use Exuberance for a little bit of vitality and 3% of vit converted to healing.

I agree though, those last 2 do seem optional.

Purity is a nice little passive bonus, and works between cooldowns, there are a lot of conditions out there. I did highly consider Defender’s Flame, and it is still a good choice if need be.

I don’t think strength in numbers is worth anything honestly, so I pass that by more often than not.

Again, great input and thanks for feedback. Now I need a rich guinea pig to test it out and make a video….

Perplexity Guard - WvW (Roam)

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CMF.5461

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNApfWlUgqCXGyLEf4ESmCRCBxUgRf01DH6hYIA-jACB4gCik0g0HBK/sIasl1FRjVPjIqWfEzcrIa1SBAxyK-e

Taking a stab at the condition guard as that conversation has popped up again.

I’m under firm confidence that a guardian will never have useful, offensive condition damage. Additionally burning alone will do nothing. So we are left with runes and sigils to help fill the gap, but many of those are only available in PvE/WvW and not sPvP.

Conditions in PvE are not optimal by any means, especially for the guardian, so we are left with WvW.

Damage:

Perplexity is probably the best fit with the guardian condition defense, as it causes attackers to gain 3 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds (20% chance).

Torch will allow the guardian to reliably apply burning, regardless of virtue usage (but only limited to 3 targets in melee range).

Sigils of Geomancy are a third option for condition damage (3 bleeding for 7 seconds on swap), but I opted for more survival with Energy Sigils.

At best conditions with burning and 3 confusion on attackers, you can do 1273 damage a second, or more if they spam attacks through confusion (627 burning, 464 confusion).

If you add in Geomancy you can add on 307 a sec from bleeding (1580 dmg a sec)

Defense:

As far as defense, its a classic bunker build with AH, dodge heals, and symbol heals.
With mace up, you will heal approximately 945 health a second (symbol 218, regeneration, 304, VoR 211, faithful strike per attack rotation average 212).

I couldn’t figure a great weapon swap, so just took staff for some mobility, minor symbol healing, and group utility/burst heal with AH.

Utility slots, were a toss up, put in wall of reflection to continue with the idea of “stop hitting yourself” style of fighting, purging flames for condition removal, and stand your ground for retal/stability.

All around this build theoretically can outlast most opponents, while still offering offensive pressure…BUT it is limited to if the enemy decides to attack you in the first place, and is at most optimal versus 1 or 2 opponents (cooldown on sigil/runes only apply to 1 target at a time).

Very niche, but it might work?

Go head, tear it up. I know conditions are bad on guards

Commander pet: the Bugler

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

We had 3 commander in Bloodtide Coast for Wurm run.

Depending on the strategy, sometimes the 3 commanders can come together to create a mega-blob. Times like that, different colours for tags would be nice.

Not 100% on this one, but if you join a commander’s squad, don’t the rest of the commander tags drop off your map?

Limited to 50 people though.

It “is” an option if it works, albeit not the perfect one.

Guardian 56k Whirling Wrath and More

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CMF.5461

Necroing this because it came up in another topic and I originally posted there, but thought it was more applicable to this thread, albeit late.

TLDR is on bottom quote.


One interesting thing to note in that video (which is a great video for theory crafting and stat exploration), is that on average most one handed abilities do about 30-35k damage in “burst”, while two handed abilities do about 50-55k damage in “burst”.

(I know it was a 56k whirling wrath but rounding out numbers to look cleaner)

So theoretically two 1h weapons could do about 60-70k damage in unison, but it would be spread out over a little bit longer time period than a 2h weapon as you use two abilities either in succession of each other or at the same time.

Zealot’s defense did about 35k and sword auto maintained almost 50k damage in a rotation.

Smite did about 30k damage, but auto attack from scepter was hitting for 5k a pop (two hit for 10k), combined that was about 60k damage.

Cleansing flame itself did about 30k damage, combine that with smite you also get 60k damage on a relatively short cooldown.

Shield of wrath did 35k, but that is a long cooldown and broken by 3 incoming hits.

Mace symbol did about 30k damage all together, which is persistent but slower damage than a burst ability.

Protector’s strike was absorbed with a block by shield of wrath, so it didn’t trigger, but based on the base damage, it is probably capable of a 25-30k burst hit by itself.

Hammer auto attack pulled out a_ 55k auto attack with symbol ticks included, which again is slower damage than hitting one burst ability, but consistent “dps”….not as sexy as seeing a “56k” number pop up though.

Mighty blow pulled off a 25k hit, so mix that in with hammer auto with some moderate burst ability.

Staff I’ll mention for the sake of it, symbol did about 30k damage, and auto attack was hitting up to 7.5k.

So you can generalize, that all weapons (except for shield, and staff) can do approximately the same damage. The difference is, does it do it with 1 ability or a combination of abilities.

Now, which does the most “dps” though? That is figured by duration of attack and frequency of use.

TLDR:

If Whirling Wrath was every 10 seconds, and hammer auto attack was able to rotate about 3 times, then hammer auto attack will do 165k damage in 10 seconds versus whirling wrath doing 55k in 10 seconds.

Keep in mind that after whirling wrath, you still have the greatsword auto attack to help contribute to damage, which wasn’t observed in the video.

So it may be greater/similar in terms of dps, as hammer is pretty much 2 attacks in 1.

Whirling Wrath will complete that 55k damage in about 2.5 seconds so it is more considered “burst”.

Hammer auto attack will need to persist for that full 10 seconds to see 165k damage, and any dodging or use of other abilities reduces the overall number.

So it is easier to do a quick whirling wrath than persist hammer auto for 10 seconds uninterrupted. Also it is pretty sexy to see 56k damage pop up

(edited by CMF.5461)

All skills and stats feel... meh

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CMF.5461

deleted my response and moved it to the original thread with the video, because it was more applicable to that conversation

As far as your leveling woes:

Binding blade increases damage with power not condition damage apparently, unless they fixed that.

Stats at lower levels mean less because you do not have enough numbers to push them into meaningful areas of change. At 80, you will see it more as seen with that video.

Survival is never about outright tanking, so in order to survive you have to actively dodge/block/blind appropriately, and not rely on stat stacking to survive the hits.

That said if you pick up traits like renewed justice and justice is blind, you will see a greater field of survival in AOE trash fights by spamming virtue of justice as you make kills (lots of AOE blinds). Additionally sword/greatsword contribute to those AOE blinds to help survive.

Single target fights, mace helps as well with the on demand block every 15 seconds, it helps supplement your gap between dodge refresh. (mix in blinds as well).

Speaking of dodging, pick up vigorous precision, and you will have a faster dodge refresh, to help survival even more.

With all that said, to survive you need a moderate amount of crit chance, and the right weapons and you should be good.

Beyond the avoidance aspect, you can pick up traits further down the tree like the all well known Altruistic Healing or Monk’s Focus to gain some synergy with your utility skills and weapon abilities. Mix in Writ of the Merciful with Hammer or even Mace, and you have a decent layering of healing to help sustain in fights a bit better.

Now for damage, most open world fights while leveling, shouldn’t matter too much. I do find that while solo leveling, utilizing my condition damage helps me take on higher level foes, as it isn’t mitigated by toughness and level. (I think at 10+ levels, targets are immune to condition application).

Guardian only has burn, but it does help contribute to damage. Just don’t focus on it over power/crit/critdmg.

Again, you won’t have the stat range available while leveling to really make any of those stats shine, so I would focus on active survival and knowing the enemy target attack patterns, like you mentioned with the wasp queen.

I’m leveling a warrior right now and I noticed I’m having a much better time soloing some champions due to the layers of condition damage versus trying to raw damage thing when I was leveling my guardian. Things that are tougher die faster with that added damage.

(edited by CMF.5461)

High Vitality Guardian for WvW

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CMF.5461

Typically people are concerned with three things in pvp:

Damage
Sustain
Mobility

While you do have 2k attack power, the frequency of damage and the spike of said damage is what often results in uncontrollable offensive pressure. Without the spike damage granted via crits and multiple damage modifiers, your damage will not be as threatening as other builds and classes.

Sustain is another aspect to consider, which is what you are attempting to address. With high sustain, you can make up for lower damage in an effort to outlast the opponents. The age old adage: “a dead dps is no dps”, is a compromise we all make in order to survive long enough to make an impact.

Against multiple enemies, sustain becomes even more important because you have to continue to fight after finishing the first enemy and needing to continue on to the next.

High health is a buffer to sustain, but replenishment of life is the largest impact on obtaining meaningful sustain. With only high health, you can survive a largest amount of damage, but in order to maintain that, you need a way to recover that damage done. So often any health past the estimated damage incoming is often wasted.

Anyone who has done tanking in other games recognizes this and you typically build health to “just enough” then contribute stats to other means of survival, such as self healing, avoidance, mitigation, etc.

Mobility plays a role in both damage and sustain. By being highly mobile you can reach a target to do damage, stick to a target to maintain damage, and also get away from a target to avoid damage and make a recovery.


With all that said, many players go one of three routes.

A meditation/greatsword/sword type build that has optimal damage, moderate sustain, and high mobility.

A Healway type build with high sustain, moderate damage, and decent mobility depending on weapon choices

or

An Altruistic Healing build, with very high sustain in a group scenario, and easily modified to damage or defensive support as AH does not need as many stats put into healing power, allowing you to tailor it more to your play style (as long as it is grouped).

Typically glass cannon builds with no sustain are limited to PvE, and I believe often times the above three build types are used for WvW guardians. If there is another, I apologize, it has been a few months since I played.

High Vitality Guardian for WvW

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CMF.5461

The problem is what do you sacrifice for the gain in vitality?

At first glance you notice low healing power, so normal defenses of the guardian with dodge roll healing and regeneration are lessened. Two components that are often key to the sustain of a guardian.

Also the sacrifice of meaningful damage is noticed, with a low crit chance and crit damage. So you will not be ending fights quickly to make up for a probable lessened sustain.

To enhance sustain, abilities that heal well but do not need healing power could be used, such as meditations and/or altruistic healing. Those have limitations as well though.

Meditations is meant for more offensive burst damage and burst healing. Altruistic healing relies on allies to be near by.

So with high vitality, you will survive more instantaneous burst, but you won’t do much back and you won’t survive the following series of damage with no obvious way to recover.

Not saying it can’t work, but those are the traditional responses you will probably get. Often those are backed by the previous year of experimentation as the game released and we all tried different things, but settled on the “meta”.

If you can create a new role the all power to you, keep the theory crafting going, just keep some of those things in mind when trying to break out of the box.

Light Field - Damage

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Kind of left the game for a few months, so missed a lot of changes.

But had a random idea I wanted to submit to the community:

“Enemies in a light field take x% more damage”

Or

“50% chance to crit while in a light field” (kind of like unsuspecting foe…but that is complained about being OP so meh?)

Was trying to think of some interesting synergy/flavor for the excess amount of light fields we generate, and this would be something interesting with things like hammer ring of warding trapping enemies in side of it and making it more punishing, as well as creating that melee oriented fighter that “punishes” enemies for position, or what ever that quote was a few months back from the devs.

Anyway, just a random thought, probably go back to being inactive after this. Enjoy!

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

I agree kelnis, we are not there yet in terms of breaking away from our current builds, but I am constantly playing spreadsheet and theory crafting as I try to find something new and different than the norm…I’m so hipster :p

Thanks for the math info, it helps a ton Kelnis, and I will keep digging away till I find some new magic build/formula that takes us to the next level.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Just clarifying that it is a useful stat, with reasoning and content to clarify for any additional readers so that we are all educated and not just repeating others actions without knowledge. Teach a man to fish.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Well it does “work that way” it is a damage mod, but having multiple damage mods instead of heavy stacking one damage mod works better due to the multiplicity of the mods.

I can have 30% increase to damage, or I can have 3 10% increases to damage, resulting in 33.1% as opposed to a flat 30%.

Then as was mentioned before, the percentage of chance for crit to happen lowers the actual number seen to a lower average number.

So yes, damage mods are better than crit damage, but crit damage still applies when talking about pushing damage. There “is” a point where crit damage would push out over a damage mod, but it has to be a really low damage mod versus a really high crit damage value and or crit chance.

So general rule of thumb, you are of course correct, damage mods are better, but crit damage shouldn’t just be ignored.

I think the magic answer here is that armor and gear supplies all the crit damage we need, thus mitigating the value of crit damage.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Sorry, not trying to argue that crit damage is better. I whole heatedly agree and see that damage mods are better, my goal was to find a balancing point where we could sacrifice a damage mod here and there and make up for it with crit damage, and at what point that becomes just as effective.

I.E open up more builds via theory crafting.

As it is now,it is difficult to gain sustainability while building for full damage via damage mods, and in PvE that is fine because the fights are tailored to work in a way that squishy builds are able to persist as long as you can front the damage and dodge appropriately.

So is there a way to build self sustain while maintaining as much potential damage as the full dmg mod setups? Can crit damage fulfill that role and allow people to continue taking AH or MF (our only two reliable sustain mechanics, other than regeneration that requires gearing for healing power to make it more effective).

So I’m just trying to tweek numbers to keep damage up while moving trait points around and such.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Well I think it is shown that the damage modifiers and the crit damage do count for each other, and I believe there is a balancing point where you “could” opt for crit damage to make up for not getting a 5% or 10% damage mod here and there.

The trick is, where can this be sacrificed and at what frequency of crits can this become reliable.

If you just take the maximum resulting damage with crit damage and damage modifiers you can see potential damage maximum

But as as kelnis pointed out (like unscathed contender) you may want to calculate for average up time or in other words, frequency of crits. This would show you the dps of a build and not just max burst damage, and when using abilities over duration, dps is what matters typically.

So say you have damage mods of: 10%, 10%, 10%, 5% with only 150% crit damage.

Your base attack is 1000 damage
with damage mods (39.7%) and base crit damage (50%) you get
1397 raw damage and
2096 crit damage

Lets drop one of the 10% and get 30% more crit damage and see what we get.
10%, 10%, 5% (27.1%) damage mods with (80%) crit damage
1000 * 1.2705 = 1270 raw damage
1270 * 1.8 = 2286 crit damage

Still if you are not 100% crit chance you need to take that into consideration, so lets apply the average uptime formula to our 180% crit damage to see the estimated effective damage modifier.

50% crit chance with 180% crit damage would result in the difference of damage of 80% of normal damage
0.5 * 0.8 = 0.4 (40% damage modifier with crits)

So lets put that in with our raw damage mods now.
10%, 10%, 5%, and crit damage mod of 40%
1000 * 1.2705 = 1270.5 * 1.4 = 1778.7

1270 raw damage
1778 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

giving the 10%, 10%, 10%, 5% with 50% crit damage the same treatment
0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 (25% damage mod with crits)

1000 * 1.39755 = 1397.55 raw damage
1397.55 * 1.25 = 1746.9375


To sum it up
10%, 10%, 10%, 5% damage mods with 150% crit damage
1397 raw damage
1746 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

10%, 10%, 5% damage mods with 180% crit damage
1270 raw damage
1778 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

This in a “vacuum” though, because gear would push crit damage around and adjust the scale to the point that 30% extra crit from valor may not be worth it.

again, I had to stop and think about this one a few times, so unsure if I used the average uptime formula correctly. Correct me please if I am off target.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

for sure kelnis, I think it is still fare to apply crit damage, but ensure it is shown separately and it can given the same treatment as unscathed contender as it works in much the same way when trying to average out up time and down time.

So if I understood it right from your previous example.

50% crit chance with a 200% crit damage total, would end up being

(frequency of crits) * (difference in damage) = (average increase of damage)
(.5) * (2) = 1

So 200% crit damage with 50% crit chance would provide 100% extra damage, and not 200% due to half the hits being crits and half not.

This could then be shown with the “static” damage multipliers to give an overall estimate of increase in damage.

I don’t think we should ignore numbers because they are too big, and difficult for the observer to understand, but simply explain them more and show “how” it works and not just end result.

{Guide} Guardian Paladin 2.0/2.5 Build

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CMF.5461

If you heavy dps traits down one tree, you limit the viability of other builds to reach them meaningfully.

A spread of traits “is” a good thing, but how they are accessible needs to be considered.
Right now some of the traits would have good synergy but too far spread out and down different trees. Maybe if they went down a few notches to be reached with 10 or 15 points in they would open up more builds. Again have to be careful to not give us everything as we need to have sacrifices for our gains, otherwise it becomes OP to get everything and lose nothing.

Trait Suggestion: Kindled Zeal

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CMF.5461

direct damage instead of condition damage, would result in it being mitigated via armor. Also it may be blockable then?

poison and torment would be interesting, but at 1s it would tick and expire, at most you could get 3-7 seconds out of them with maybe whirling wrath.

Torment would need stacks to make it more effective, and poison would help us kill tanky bunker setups a little easier, again the duration of poison is usually the winner, not the damage.

I would like to see burning reduce damage done by targets with burning
or
burning now clears a condition with each application
maybe
burning causes blindness with each tick?

Those are more defensive options, and not really going to address the condition damage build problem that guardians have, but it is more thematic to how guardians play.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Include PotV and you’re at least as effective as one with 10/30/0/30/0 but have more boon duration, quicker virtue recharge, gain an immense dps boost at most, not a few very specific encounters and get more condition removal if required plus higher consecration uptime, resulting in better “support”.

Depends on how you total up the encounters I think.

Trash – Good luck keeping it up…but most dungeon runners sprint past trash anyway, so it is a non factor to them and dosn’t count.

Open world pve – Most things die faster than they can hit you back, so unless you train a lot on yourself it will be available, but this is a non issue for most people since open world pve is not hard

Open world bosses and mini bosses – These vary more often and are increasingly difficult to keep aegis up due to adds or general ae spam as they are often balanced for masses of people attacking it, thus the attacks are more frequent and harder to manipulate with dodges and blinds, aegis is less effective here…but open world is again typically easy so non issue.

Dungeons – Most of these are drastically easy to keep aegis available, so for the dungeon runner demographic unscathed contender is the best thing ever to ensure high dps (this is where most people that opt for it spend most of their time, thus the other scenarios don’t exist to them).

PvP/WvW – almost impossible to maintain aegis due to the masses of people attacking at a more frequent rate than PvE, so almost worthless to get unscathed contender with the exception of some burst builds where you can get the jump on someone and try to 100-0 the target.

I agree it is a great trait for what it does, but trying to identify that it works in a specific aspect of the game, which is not the majority of the game… Although the other areas pretty much don’t count as they are open world, and then in pvp/wvw you are not really relying on max dps but more survival so you trait differently in the first place.

edit: forgot to mention you still have a good point about added utility due to virtue refresh and boon duration. So it is equivalent dps in both builds, not counting unscathed defender, but more* utility with virtues. Honor’s utility mostly lies in condition removal and heals, while virtue has more flavor and variation with boons and active usage of virtues.

(edited by CMF.5461)

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

So say you have the following dmg mods:
10%, 10%, 10% with a total crit dmg of 200% (150 base and 50 gear).

1000 damage would go like this:
Base – 1000
10% – 1100
10% – 1210
10% – 1331
Crit – 2662

What if we flip it around now,

Base – 1000
Crit – 2000
10% – 2200
10% – 2420
10% – 2662

Now lets put all the dmg mods and crit together
1.1*1.1*1.1*2 = 2.662
Base damage – 1000
Dmg mods & crit = 2662

So could you not put crit in with dmg mods and it still calculates? or am I missing something. Admittedly I am horrible at math, so trying to learn not just argue.

Give 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 some love

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CMF.5461

Good math, not sure I’m 100% on the active/inactive percentile. Still reading it forward and backwards.

Point is though, what I’m reading says, “IF” you can keep aegis up, you can have a massive increase in damage.

If you can’t keep aegis up, then you will do about the same if not slightly more than 10/30/0/30/0 due to averaging of aegis up time.

So 10/30/0/30/0 and 10/30/0/5/25 are about the same in a normal fight, but in certain boss fights unscathed defender makes you amazing.

That said, people who run 10/30/0/30/0 are “just as effective” as a 10/30/0/5/25 except for a few unique encounters.

Which while slightly off topic, is the reason why a lot of people didn’t like unscathed defender very much at first, and still reluctant to use it now. It “IS” our best dps trait, you just have to either be perfect and in a specific encounter that allows for its utilization.

So the average player opts not to take it because they are not perfect and/or not doing those specific encounters.

I guess that’s my round about way of saying 10/30/0/30/0 is just fine for the average person if they want to take that. Or they can go 10/25/0/25/10 and get all the damage mods, but then will the build be useful? Some people run it.

edit: Also, crit damage “is” a multiplier, and while it is typically better to have more than one multiplier due to them being multiplicative and totaling up better, having 30% extra crit damage in valor is still an increase in damage, assuming a high frequency of crits.

So I think evaluation of builds based on damage multipliers should include the crit damage as well.

(edited by CMF.5461)