Guild Wars 2

Supcutie.2538:

Yo I did this comparison in my guide:
Assassin’s Amulet vs. Berserker – Here are the results with Hoelbrak Runes
(power runes like strength):
- Sin does 9.4% more damage on average with 0 might.
- Sin does 11.2% more damage on average with 14 might.
- Sin does 10.67% more damage than Zerker at 14 might when both have Fury. (Zerker
amulet scales better with Fury)
- You are losing 16.67% health with Sin amulet

The bottom line is: You gain 14% more crit on openers leading to more consistent crits, and higher damage with might, resulting in about 10% +/- 3.5ish percent more damage for 3k health.
So some quick math about using Sin – You’re basically doing around 1100 more damage per big shatter for example. This damage could make the difference, but I would argue that in most cases, the health is better. If you have 3 or more dps on your team, you should definitely take Zerker amulet. If you have 2 or less, I would say you can consider Sin amulet but even then personally I like the health more.

Wow. Trading power for precision 1 for 1 results in that much damage gain? What the hell

edit: yeah forgot Berserker had 451 Ferocity instead of 650

Firebird.8324:

Zoose, the changes that you proposed only takes the might stacking capabilities of celementalist down by around 2. That is Not a major enough nerf that will all of a sudden Not make it able to 1v1 everything, do massive damage in the team fight, and not maintain uptime on 25 might stack when someone else happens to blast a fire field in a team fight. If this were the only change implemented I guarantee it would be hardly noticed.

First, you glossed over the fact that lightning whip/stow weapon is broken
second, CELEMENTALIST NEEDS LESS PROTECTION
third, remove the blast finisher from water attunement.
Also, vigor for days? devs look into that.

Oh before I forget, I am for the removal of 50-100 points off each stat for cele, and IMO nerf holbrek and strength runes might duration a LOT, like hack 50% off a LOT.

Or delete celestial amulet please.

Reducing battle sigil from 3 to 2 would cut a bit more than 2 stacks. Seeing as it stacks 4 times…..

Amir.1570:

For maniac amulet to be balanced, I think the 600 toughness should be healing power..

Meh, in the theorycraft, nerf it until it’s fair. But if it had healing power, it’s literally just a worse Cele amulet. It has worse stats, but still needs builds to have condis, power, and healing, same as Cele.

Narcarsis.5739:

Mesmer actually does fairly well against s/d if played properly. Furthermore mesmers pigeon hole themselves into running staff/greatsword – which is a good weaponset but provides nothing against thieves. Sword/torch and sword/focus with greatsword is a lot more well rounded, far from unviable, and has a good match up versus thief.

Don’t blame one weapon set for keeping a class out of the meta when the players of the class are too stubborn to adapt.

Interesting, I’ve never heard anyone come from that direction of the S/D Thief v. Mesmer debate.

I’ve seen notable Mesmers practice on Sword/Torch but usually it’s a quick revert back to Staff/GS when it’s serious time.

Also what do you think is keeping Supcutie’s GS/Sword&Focus Mesmer from being dominant if the matchup isn’t bad vs. Thief? Everyone usually agrees that Mesmer is huge in ability to kill Celestials.

Wilco.1458:

Like pre-powercreep-patch, you can use one and that’s it.

Yep.

Wilco.1458:

Also air/fire is the only reason S/D thief is a thing right now, something you might have overlooked.

I think S/D Thief would still be a thing if it ran Force, Energy, or Leeching with Air, instead of Air/Fire. They already run Energy/Generosity on the Shortbow, I think it’d be all good if we re-introduced a GCD for each sigil type.

Wilco.1458:

Also @Chaith I know you get a little wet when you see an amulet with the exact 5 stats you want on your engineer, but those perfect amulets take a lot of the decision making away from the game and frankly make it too trivial.

It might appear that way, but probably would have the opposite effect. Cele Amulet is fine for Rifle Engi. There’d actually be decision making if there were other options. Cele Amulet is fine for shout Warriors, but there’d be more decisions made if non-shout Wars had good itemization. I have no clue how to even offer Ele any decision making, Celestial is too perfect. Elementalist traits need to change, badly. Offensive based hybrid Mesmers with basic toughness, that’d definitely be a decision to make over standard shatter with berserker.

I’m generally down to increase the decision making, not trivialize it. I think amulets like : Assassin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Magi, & Rampager – these are the trivial options. I wish they’d have their stats either spread out, or buffed.

But this whole convo is just theorcrafting, who knows what direction Arenanet would like the build options to go in. Anet? **Crickets***

Zoose.1640:

I can always count on you to be the forum warrior we need, Chaith.

Lmao, thanks. I think.

I agree with your analysis that celestial bruisers are more efficient than glass cannons and bunkers.

I also think that the game needs to come away from heavy emphasis on swap sigils in particular, mostly due to their power being magnified by profession differences in swapping. I would do some things differently, I think it would be weird to implement diminishing returns on sigils even if it is the right direction to go.

I just wanted to add some things that are important to note, on the subject. I might be talking semantics here, but I think it’s important to see the whole picture:

• “Cele Engies/Eles/Wars should all be able to hold points equally, as ‘bruisers’.”

This shouldn’t be the case because there is more to a role than the amulet. Rifle Engies can’t, and don’t want to stand on point. They are roamers, the opposite end of the bruiser spectrum as Cele Eles and Cele Wars. There’s one big reason for this: Ele, built for 25-30 condition removals per minute based on efficiency of rotation. Warrior, built for 30-31, assuming realistically, Combustive Shot every 12s, Engies, have 6-8, and 4 transmute blocks. One does not simply stand on points and have 20 second gaps in removing condition. Nope train -> eff-that-ville.

This is all understandable since the meta Cele Ele has 0% of their traits in offensive natures, meta Cele Wars have 29% of their traits in offensive natures, and meta Engies have 71% of their traits in offensive natures. This is why Engies deal good damage, it’s not because they have high base damage on the Rifle, in fact it’s quite the opposite in that Rifle scales well.

It’s good to draw the line here between the two completely different roles amongst the 3 good Cele builds. Cele Wars and Eles are the on-point role fillers that are competing with, and beating Bunker Guardians and Tanky Ranger & non-cele War back-points out of the meta.

Rifle Engies are built to roam, drop CC kill combos & downed body cleave. They’re competing for roamer spots, against Power/Condi Necro, Shatter Mesmer, Fresh Air Ele, Power/Condi Rangers, Condi Engies, arguably Thieves, Condi/Power Guardians, Condi/Power Warriors.

Utilizing Cele stats, I’d say Rifle Engi is among the top picks of Roamers, up there with Condi Necro, Thief, Mesmer, Condi Engi. I agree Rifle Engi needs a shave at the same time that Cele Ele and Cele War get it.

Something else to note:

The old PvP Celestial Amulet & Gem, Celestial Stats at the time were: 20% Crit damage which equalled Berserker, and a stat budget that was boosted 19% above the Berserker counterpart.

At the April rune/sigil revamp. Cele Stats have a 29.7% boost compared to Berserker now, and the builds went completely from zero to hero. That seems really bizarre to me, and I feel that the big swing in how sigils can be harnessed had much more to do with it.

My proposed Changes:

Re-introduce some of the previous limitations on Sigils.

• Swap sigils when activated, incur a global cooldown that prevents other swap sigils from activating.

• Crit sigils when activated, incur a global cooldown that prevents other crit sigils from activating.

This will end the reign of Battle/Doom or Battle/Intelligence. And it will also end Fire/Air. Stacking sigils (bloodlust/corruption/life) become a much more viable option now, if one can’t use crit sigils. Swap & crit sigils being used together will be the meta. In the old sigil system, you couldn’t even activate crit sigils if your swap sigil was on cooldown – you had to use Force or a Duration/Stacking Sigil. This wasn’t even a bad mechanic, it was fair to all, but going back to this would be another big swing.

Too many restrictions were removed at once, in April! Clawing back one of those restrictions, as per my suggestion I feel is the best middle ground.

Last suggestion:

Introduce a new hybrid damage PvP amulet! One that’s not glass cannon like Rampager & Sinister (if it was brought to PvP), but has more balanced offensive stats than Rabid & Carrion. Essentially the offensive version of Celestial like Zoose was hinting at, with less total stats than Celestial due to more focus.

• [PvP] Maniac Amulet

600 Power
438 Precision
438 Toughness
438 Ferocity
600 Condition Damage

I think this would be a great amulet for Hybrid professions that aren’t supposed to be glass cannon, deal hybrid damage, but aren’t interested in stacking healing effects like Regen, Shout heals, Water attunements – ie: Hambow/Axebow/Greatswordbow Wars, Rifle Engineers, Mesmers, P/D Thieves.

NeXeD.3042:

Tao.5096:

NeXeD.3042:

Neither of these techniques effect the game enough for people to be championing it and saying omfg I’m so leet I can do this. Sounds like you are just salty against eles getting an extra 200 hp every couple minutes or so….

Nope.
I’m salty about people who play eles and think they’re godlike, meanwhile they die, and start flaming you, for their lack of “skill?”.

I also didn’t say those exploits have any effect for me in the game.
What I meant was that most of them who rely on doubled heals from autoattack will cry when it’ll be fixed – if it will be fixed.

I was watching phantaram one day and I asked him about how much he uses lightning whip stow and his answer was very very seldom since you hurt your dps by doing it so it’s really not worth the extra 200 hp.

Are you sure that’s a direct quote? lol. When you stow lightning-whip there’s no noticeably damage loss, as instead of doing a 2hit ability you’re just repeatedly doing the first hit, basically doubling the ‘actions’ as far as signet of restoration is concerned, but not changing the hits per minute very much.

Kitt.2567:

i am tarcis’s right hand

Let’s just say I wouldn’t wish that fate on anybody

Joepiehak.9503:

I’ve leveled a warrior, ranger and engineer to lvl 80 for PvP, done this in the PvP mode, and done World vs World vs World aswell. No Ascended pieces or whatever; just superior items with some gimicky tryhard builds. But I miss my old class and spec I’ve been playing in world of warcraft, so…

If you’re wanting to PvP, you will want to stop leveling characters immediately, as gear and levels are irrelevant in the mists, and only have an effect in the WvW/PvE World. Enter the mists, select your build from the template, and enjoy having a pre-made maxed out character.

Joepiehak.9503:

(My question)
Can someone please help create a build that looks something like “WoW Destruction warlock”. It is a class that’s build around very hard hitting spells. You build up a special recourse, and unleash them while your enemies are Controlled by for example a stun, dealing heavy damage. While your damage outside this burst is decent/worse.

There is only really one mechanic like that in the game, and that would be on a Warrior using the trait ‘Unsuspecting Foe’, giving the Warrior 50% critical chance on stunned enemies. This allows you to drop precision in your build and be quite tanky, with ‘Cavalier, Valkyrie, Soldier’ type stats, and deal Berserker level damage on stunned enemies only. However, this is not a popular build, and won’t fit the rest of your criteria for being ranged, and so on.

Joepiehak.9503:

What I need with this is:
1 . Hard hitting, ranged ability. Prefered no CD. If I can use this ability and follow it up with something else that does big damage, it is fine aswell.
2. I need 1 stun/cc which I can use to I can get this ability going so nobody can dodge/stop it for the duration of the CC.
3. Decent survivability would be great too; but the other 2 things are my priority.

Something extra: If you can tell me what armor/traits I should run would help too. But I just can’t find a fitting class with the things I’m currently interrested in. It’s fine if it’s Semi-viable, but I just don’t mind being really good anyway; I just want to play something like this again.

If you need me to give video examples how this class works in World of Warcaft I can give you some video links. Maybe that will help. Waiting for your responses, thanks!

Based on your description, you either want a Static Discharge Engineer, or a Fresh Air Elementalist.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpmq1XxkLseRCdBNypEGQ3gFUBRtwPFAA-TJBFwACuAA12foaZAAPAAA

^Engineer

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJArdhMMaZ2zwzBf0AOAGpag4IQAoDW+KsEiCA-T5AFwACOBAVLDA4BAAA

^Elementalist

These are both semi-viable builds that have extremely strong and consistent ranged attacks. They also have extremely devastating damage on knocked down enemies (Engineer’s Rifle 4, and Elementalist Scepter Air 5) However, in this game, stunbreaks, blinds, and blocks are very common so the combos have to account for a lot of things unexpectedly happening, compared to WoW.

Depends on what you need to test it for.

If you want to test out how the survivability or disengaging feels like, practice is fine. Bonus is that you don’t have to wait. I prefer unranked.

Also there’s a big difference between trying out new tweaks and jogging your memory on why a 4-Signet thief doesn’t ever get used, for example.

You can tell if a build has any business seeing the light of day before you get to conquest maps. Try the rotations on practice dummies and Profession NPCs first. If you make sure the builds pass the test, then you won’t get yelled at by your teammates for being useless, at the very least.

Churning Earth hits you for…

That’s how you know you got outplayed!

Doing dailys.

Seeing how well your build can escape a blob of thieves.

Practicing your combos against semi-sentient beings instead of Golems.

GhOst.4019:

Amir.1570:

List of easiest classes in order:

1.) Ranger – Able to evade indefinitely while attacking with pet, plenty of “I screwed up buttons.” The easiest class in the game.
2.) Necromancer – Highest effective HP in the game, lots of “I screwed up buttons,” easy to land important things such as boon stripping and chain CC
3.) Guardian – Able to Block and Blind while attacking. DPS is very easy to land.
4.) Elementalist – Too many “I screwed up buttons” and mobility in some builds, too much sustain and skills are very easy to land.

I’m not saying those classes are broken, I’m just saying they are easy and forgiving. Those four are the most beginner friendly classes in the game.

Mesmer is also easy once you understand how to count dodges. Not as easy as those four braindead classes above though. You could wait until Berserker Meta comes back again and you’ll see why Mesmer can be easy. Just not as much as those four that I mentioned.

Don’t bother with Warrior if you have a hard time landing important skills such as Earthshaker or Pin Down. Don’t bother with Thief if you have zero reaction time in dodging burst. Turret Engi is braindead but don’t bother with Engi builds that take skill if you can’t skill shot for jack.

Classes for when you are actually good at the game: Warrior, Engi, Thief, and maybe non-cheesy high risk high reward power Necro specs.

Gotta be troll. You can’t list Necro as the 2nd easiest to play. That is a joke. A MM necro maybe but they are still played wrong by 95% of people that use them and are trash. Necro has the least amount of “I screwed up buttons” (as you put it) in the game. Warrior being “for when you are good” ? Lol? Probably the easiest class to play.

No troll, just some strong opinions formed way before he actually played all the professions

uberkingkong.8041:

ArrDee.2573:

Abjured has been around just as long as TCG have! Maybe longer! These players have been playing together for quite a long time! They were just never on a team together though 3/5 Abjured members have been on a team together years ago and were one of the top teams on NA!

The rest of your post is just random drivel! Get good son!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Nope, rest of it is a point that the best team out there runs 2 eles 2 engi’s, because they too op to run any other classes.

WTS was restrictive as to what the people play who are allowed to go. The day it was over, the 2nd Engineer was dropped for a Necro.

Kythan Myr.4719:

Kinda new to this celestial thing, Which professions benefit from it? All?

Sure, but only certain professions benefit the most. Here’s the deal with Celestial builds:

With a Cele amulet, you use at least the Battle Sigil and +Might Duration runes to increase your power and condition damage to manageable levels, which the Cele amulet lacks. Every profession can get to this point.

From there, each profession approaches it differently. Generally:

• Grab traits and utilities that offer sustained healing, benefiting from +Healing as much as possible.

• Grab weapons that deal medium to high power damage, and have good condition application.

Following those logical steps, on Warrior, you get 0/0/4/6/4 Sword/Warhorn & Longbow, with Cleansing Ire, Healing Shouts. It plays as a very tanky on-point fighter & support.

On Ele, you get 0/0/2/6/6 Dagger/Dagger, with 3 Cantrips, Cleansing Water, and Evasive Arcana. It plays as a very tanky on-point fighter & support.

On Engi, you get 6/0/0/4/4 Rifle, with Grenades, Toolkit, and your choice of stunbreak. It plays as an offensive Roamer with good control and damage. It’s survivable enough only when combined with lots of kiting off point.

Cele builds on other professions haven’t formed much of an identity yet. Rarely do professions have a strong enough blend of healing, power damage, and condition application. Generally, between the three things Cele builds need, (heal scaling, power damage, and condition application), other professions can only pick two.

If you’re trying to master dodging and rotating well in conquest seems a daunting task, Turrets will definitely give you more success against other people who are also new to the game.

In fact, compared to other new players, your Turret Engi will be a god. But as soon as you reach the intermediate to advanced level, it will quickly fall off against people who can make proper decisions on where/what to fight.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpmqVWx2KseNCdBF6VklXI6GWkR/pAA-TJhGwAQLDs4BAA4CA0e/BA

With this build, anyone who attacks you head on will almost certainly die trying. Smarter enemies may still kill you.

I like the idea of blasting Fire Fields being more support/altrustic in nature.

That would inadvertently buff Engineers though, seeing as Warriors would be taking a few hits to their Might Stacks and Eles would be taking a huge hit to their might stack. Engineers don’t have any might generating abilties on the meta builds currently and a nerf like that would miss them completely.

but Warriors are in a pretty good place right now with their Shoutbow build.

Firebird.8324:

Accurate, I agree.

Firebird.8324:

Almost forgot to quote you, YOU GOT THE WHOLE POINT OF THE FLOW CHART, TY

Firebird.8324:

You sir make an excellent point.

Firebird.8324:

You have a very good point, the one issue is necromancer is regarded as one of the very slowest classes in the game, while thief, is typically the +1 er because of mobility.

Firebird.8324:

True Words

Firebird.8324:

+1

Firebird.8324:

WHAT?! other people think that too?

Firebird.8324:

Vain, your post says it all.

Firebird.8324:

You put into words the thoughts of many, nice Post.

Firebird.8324:

I hear ya there.

Firebird.8324:

+1

Firebird.8324:

+1

Firebird I think you’re a sophisticated man of good taste and honor, can I get in on this too?

cymerdown.4103:

Chaith.8256:

cymerdown.4103:

As for gw2 currently, you can play a melee tanky dps, a ranged tanky dps, or thief (debatable if thief is really better than either of the first two) — you’ve got about 5 builds to choose from and 3 roles.

Dunno.

I see more than 5 builds used between Cheese Mode, TCG, 55HP, The Abjured, and Dodge or Die, formerly the Absurd.

• D/P Thief (DoD, Occasionally CM)
• S/D Thief (TCG, Abjured, 55HP)
• Rifle Engi (CM, Abjured, 55HP, Occasionally TCG)
• Rabid Engi (DoD, Occasionally TCG)
• D/D Ele
• Staff Ele (55HP, but highly questionable.)
• Shoutbow War (DoD, TCG)
• Hambow War (Occasionally CM)
• Condi Necro (Abjured, occasionally TCG)
• Hammer/Scepter Medi Guard (CM, occasionally TCG)
• AH Bunker Guard (TCG, 55HP)
• Shatter Mesmer (55hp, TCG)

Sure, people play a lot of things. I’d argue that many of those aren’t optimal, though.

The sad thing is that the top teams on EU or NA run Ranger approximately never

cymerdown.4103:

As for gw2 currently, you can play a melee tanky dps, a ranged tanky dps, or thief (debatable if thief is really better than either of the first two) — you’ve got about 5 builds to choose from and 3 roles.

Dunno.

I see more than 5 builds used between Cheese Mode, TCG, 55HP, The Abjured, and Dodge or Die, formerly the Absurd.

• D/P Thief (DoD, Occasionally CM)
• S/D Thief (TCG, Abjured, 55HP)
• Rifle Engi (CM, Abjured, 55HP, Occasionally TCG)
• Rabid Engi (DoD, Occasionally TCG)
• D/D Ele
• Staff Ele (55HP, but highly questionable.)
• Shoutbow War (DoD, TCG)
• Hambow War (Occasionally CM)
• Condi Necro (Abjured, occasionally TCG)
• Hammer/Scepter Medi Guard (CM, occasionally TCG)
• AH Bunker Guard (TCG, 55HP)
• Shatter Mesmer (55hp, TCG)

sinject.4607:

it’s understandable when these “top” players are nothing more than glorified above average players being carried solely by the strength of their build choices rather than their actual ability. players like wakkey epitomize this when he’s had a laughable history of “maining” whichever profession is the most imbalanced at the time.

it’s really pathetic to see that the people who are representing this game at it’s highest level of competition are mostly fairweather players who are actively looking to exploit this games imbalances.

Seriously, there is no team in this game that would be like: “We already have 5 players tied for #1 mechanical & rotational skill, who play 3 professions each, let’s skip picking up Wakkey.” He’s a pleasure to be on a team with. Especially because not many people confidently multi-class without feeling they’re just inferior to their main, I don’t think you see the value in that.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Chaith.8256:

Josh.3759:

WTS tourny gets 3k views.

In China between facing Sala and TCG I pulled up twitch briefly and I think I saw it at 4800 twitch viewers around 5:00AM eastern if memory serves me right. Keep in mind it was televised in China, getting more exposure, but I have no idea how to measure. I think that on eastern primetime the twitch views will be much better.

All whilst they ram these tournaments down our throat. In game messages. Forum messages. Putting it on gw2 stream. Putting streams on the official twitch stream. And still the viewership figures are hilarious for a game which is based online and does everything it can to promote it. They even have done giveaways for these stupid things.

So yeh, the esports scene is a distraction for like 60 people to feel pro about. I’m really glad we lost stuff like solo q just to please 60 people like you who want to feel all pro and want to force people into teams so you have more casuals to farm.

So unbelievably lame how anet are pushing this game against those of us who want to have fun.

Get flak for not posting about it and nobody knowing about it,

Get flak for posting about it and jamming it down people’s throats.

I think it’s dumb to complain about advertising a tournament. Don’t type twitch.tv/guildwars2 in your browser if it’s that troubling for you.

Josh.3759:

So are you suggesting the game is making progress too a more export scene?

Suggesting nothing that’s just the viewership numbers unless I am mistaken

Josh.3759:

WTS tourny gets 3k views.

In China between facing Sala and TCG I pulled up twitch briefly and I think I saw it at 4800 twitch viewers around 5:00AM eastern if memory serves me right. Keep in mind it was televised in China, getting more exposure, but I have no idea how to measure. I think that on eastern primetime the twitch views will be much better.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. .

Burning is more aids on Rabid. On Engi, about 100% more aids if you want to talk numbers, lol. It does go way beyond Cele, you’re right. If Cele Amulet was removed, and Engineers went back to Rabid, this problem you’re blaming on Cele builds perpetuating would actually get worse. Sword/Horn/Longbow Wars would just go Settlers. How is that better? More burning and survivability at the cost of damage.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Sustain is really hard to stop – The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!

I think that falls under a problem with the Profession, having Cele stats won’t make poison ineffective in the Engineer’s case where it goes 20 seconds at a time without any possibility to remove a condition.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health.

Games going to timer are awful, I agree. I don’t attribute that to the current meta strategies or builds though. Games going to timer have happened in an abundance in the past. There’s 2 tanky Eles/Wars on point for a team, that doesn’t mean the Engi, Necro, and Thief aren’t absolutely wrecking people into next week and snowballing across the map. What you’re describing actually is what happens when one comp is too good at stalling and decapping for the current meta comps builds to snowball into a 3 cap. For example, TCG is extremely proficient at stalling and decapping. That guarantees timer games vs. the current NA Meta strategies.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.

RIP Bunker Guardians and Rangers as A tier picks in the current Metagame. Truly, I wish that weren’t the case. If they were back in the Meta both of them would be picked over the Celestial builds they compete with. However, Berserker Hammer/Scepter&Focus Guardians are on the rise more than one top team in EU. RIP Rangers, please fix.

So that’s my take on it. Flame shield on for being an arrogant kitten who is defending his winnings.

So Gates I’m going to respond to your points from my perspective in PvP, also looking at your points when going from the previous meta builds to the new meta builds. IE: Rabid Pistols transitioning to Cele Rifle.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. There are no “jobs” anymore. I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.

Guardian and Ranger confirmed pushed out of the top meta builds, which is unfortunate. Things that became possible with Celestial that weren’t before: Sword/Warhorn War, Rifle Engineer, Eles in general. I don’t think they are among the meta builds with Valk amulet right now.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now.

This is not completely true in Cele Comps, you do still micromanage who fights who a lot. This is because nobody wants to have 2 D/D Eles trying to quickly kill a Guardian/War/Ele. You need high DPS people like a Necro/Engi or Engi/Thief or Necro/Thief to bunker bust good people and not get stalled on. My team has 2 on-point fighters and 3 roamers.

You say there is now little burst to watch out for, that’s true in the case in the introduction of Cele Sword/Horn war. The older Hammer build which is only seen occasionally now was more involving with the abilities you had to watch for. However, D/D Eles you still have to watch out for the same things if they have a Valk’s amulet or Celestial, in order to not die. And I think the Engineer’s damage on Rifle requires the player to really watch out for bursts, as opposed to wearing people down with strong Incendiary Powders.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.

Three point strats aren’t new, and speed of people hasn’t increased with Cele, with an exception being Warriors with Savage Leap now.

Ranger and Guard aren’t the fastest rotating professions, that’s a solid reason why they may not be look at favorably.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one.

Yes, Berserker Engi v. Cele Engi is a struggle because Celestial is itemized way better due to the fact that even if you run Zerker, you have a bunch of bleed, burn, and poison that you aren’t making the most of. You’re right though, Cele builds are generally better duelists because you’re often guaranteed to survive at least 60 seconds long, and won’t get mopped up 1v1 quickly. That’s one of the key perks for trading off burst. But if someone has the time for the 1v1 to go full circle, ask Nos or Toker, Necro and Thief can duel Cele builds and it’s anyone’s game. This is where rotations can easily sway 1v1 results either way because they rarely go full term.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. It DOES take less skill – Having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death.

Invest your character into doing clutch moments of burst, miss that, and yes you’re going to be #rekt. This is the age old tanky vs. Berserker argument. As with this argument, sustain power obviously does make your build more forgiving than one that doesn’t. You’re not wrong on that point. Survivability skill is only one dimension of mechanical skill though.

DevilsGlare.7658:

The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

^If anyone has a high opinion of their plays and strategies, thinks they’ve been around the block and would beat those young whippersnappers at the top now, that’d be you, who suggested the 2-1-2 strat that imploded the universe.

If I have come across arrogant and superior sounding it wasn’t my intention, but you’re down there with me, especially after engaging me in this conversation lol

DevilsGlare.7658:

because you happen to be defending your “godlike” rotations as of these days.

Lmao, you use quotation marks but I do not think you know what it means. I have never claimed to be “godlike”.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith may want to believe these 2-1-2’s are a new thing, but they’ve long since been in practice from before he was accepted on to a team. Running 0-1-4 is a completely viable strategy when played properly by a team that builds to play it. The problem with Chaith’s mindset is that the talk of nerfing cele is an exact counter to his teams strategy, so of course he feels the need to defend it. No player/team should attempt to forcibly put players in a position to play this game one way, which is what the underlying concept is.

To further sink my point…. AL vs Sync in NA Quals. AL was forcing Sync into a 0-1-4 team fight situation in which Sync wasn’t equipped for. AL knew how to team fight, and they did it better. I gave Sync the QT strat to run a 2-1-2 on Legacy, then to force small skirmishes out of spawn to prevent the regathering of a complete team fight. Sync ended up winning the NA Quals to head to Paxx in Seattle. But, alas, nobody has ever ran 2-1-2’s prior to this meta. Lul.

You look down on people, saying: “It’s a 5v5 game, stop building to be 1v1 heroes” yet they make their comp suited to winning 2-1-2 and 1-1-3.

You are going to lose that 2-1-2 split if you have a Guardian in your comp dude. Good luck to that Guardian in a 2v2 or in a 1v1. The splits aren’t new but the meta requirements to pull it off are new.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

Doesn’t bug me if nobody believes me when I say: Actually, the this team runs X amulets", based on the fact that my team wins, and has 3 Cele amulets on it. I could go on about you being a GW2 old timer who’s opinion isn’t been relevant since the Jurassic period, but then I’d just be sinking to that level.

I don’t want to discuss anyone’s personal agenda. To people who have some impression that what people write in this box is to influence balance change, and defend/enable them to win cash, no, that’s weird.

I just enjoy discussing the facts on what strategies/comps are actually succeeding, capable of succeeding, and why. Also I will pretty much always speak when somebody is saying inaccurate things about what teams are running what. And the Bird of Fire’s posts are great for that, so when I pop back on the forums, I’m always busy.

Firebird.8324:

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.

Hmm… R O M On Cele War and Denshee on Cele Ele? Sometimes Tage on Cele Guard, but usually not. Pretty much the standard amount of Cele builds.

“I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead”

You’re only being rude because I’m providing evidence that you don’t have to have 5 Cele Eles and Engies to be good at the game.

All anybody has to say in this thread is “Cele Amulet is whack” and Firebird will send you a Christmas card

Firebird.8324:

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Yes, I did submit a couple ingame reports.

I have linked the disappearance of my back item to swapping kits frequently during or after using an ability like Jump Shot.

Firebird.8324:

First of all, this post comes from an individual that abused celestial to win a mulit thousand dollar tournament and with another one on the rise he is fighting tooth and nail to keep himself from being thrown back into the gutter.

Firebird.8324:

if he changed his name to phanteram I would notice ZERO difference.

Firebird.8324:

Again I have dueled him many times, played with im, and against him, and can easily say that he is as tough, if not more of a challenge than You Five Gauge.

Firebird.8324:

I can give countless other examples with individuals like Sir Serveris, Thrackit, Swarles, players that haven’t been in the pvp scene too much that feel identical to go against as those people on the Abjured.

Firebird.8324:

Both you and chaith are scared of something happening to cele meta, because you both NEED cele to even resemble a good player.

Firebird.8324:

God, I want to keep this thread on a constructive topic, but with trolls like Chaith and Karina life is hard

This thread has kinda gone like this:

• Post salty pic
• Constructive discussion starts to happen around team comp
• Someone said power necros and mercy rune warriors are easy
• Take it personally. Everyone thinks I suck at the game!
• Talk crap to everybody on the Abjured for two pages
• Blame everyone else in the thread for being unconstructive

How shall this continue to unfold, I wonder! I finished my piece on constructive discussion regarding Cele’s role in team comps though, my work is done. Chaith outie.

Firebird.8324:

Hey chaith, thank you for for calling me out directly, again, and telling me I’m bad, that makes me have So much respect for you. Also Boreal has taken third many times by running 5 cele, although I wouldn’t recommend THAT much.

So, you agree that teams need at least 3 cele? thank you for proving my point.

I chose my words more carefully than you give me credit for, I’m not meaning to call you out. Unless you are the embodiment of double power necro, mercy warrior, personified? Don’t answer that.

My point was that you need two Celestial builds because running a Guardian is too difficult, I feel. Please differentiate between a need and a preference. You need two, if you don’t run a Guardian. More are optional. Worse players are not going to beat better players by having more Celestial builds while failing to rotate as well, or be as mechanically strong.

Shockwave.1230:

Chaith, in your opinion do teams worsen themselves if they run less than 3 Celestial builds in a comp?

I feel like that’s true, if you agree doesn’t that show an imbalance?

I think that every team needs at least 2 people that spend time on point without feeling at risk of exploding. 2 Cele Eles are what we use for that, and myself, Toker and Nos avoid points like the plague if we can.

Keep in mind we are replacing Guardians with Eles as the on-point fighters. This is where the majority of the Celestial amulets are popping up from. I don’t think Cele Warrior is choking out other builds from being useful, nor do I think Cele Engineer is.

My conclusion is that I think Ele is responsible for the over-representation of Celestial amulets, because that’s the only proper itemization for their meta build.

To answer your question, I think that at the moment, when you run a three point strat you need at least two Celestials on your team to not be worse off. Either two Cele Eles, or one Ele and one Warrior to hold the points. This is the case because Guardian has been pushed out of the NA meta.

If you have those two Celestials to hold the points, running Rabid Engi, Carrion Necro, and Berserker Thief would be a world class comp. Personally I would opt for a Cele Engi over the Rabid due to personal preference, bumping it up to 3 Celestials, but can’t deny the viability of Rabid Engi, and you wouldn’t be worse by running two instead of 3.

My personal take on balance is that when either Ele gets nerfed, or Guardian and Ranger start getting picked for other reasons, that will completely drop the over-representation of the Celestial amulet.

Firebird seems to be taking this thread really personally, and firing counterpressure (lol) could you cut that out, I don’t think you wanna go there.

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I feel that it is simply because people want to play whatever they’re used to playing regardless of what has more winning potential.

A few people may say Cele builds are too easy, to them I say: the builds are still complex as far as builds go in GW2. Do you know what is not complex? Mashing one button for 20 seconds in your elite form. Running around on a Revive Warrior mashing the ‘interact’ button on everything he can.

Occasionally on the forums someone says that Celestial builds make it so your mechanical skill is less of a factor. To them, I say the ceiling on Celestial builds for mechanical skill is plenty high. There’s a huge difference between Cele Engineers who have lethal damage combos and who don’t. Huge differences between Cele Eles who have their might stacking and cleansing/healing priorities right, and who don’t. There’s an endless list of things you have to improve on when you have a Cele playstyle, because the time to kill on your enemies means you need to play as flawlessly as possible for extended periods rather than win or lose based on the jackpot crit gank.

I’ve always had a big interest in power bruiser builds in MMOs/MOBAs that fall between assassins and tanks, and I’m definitely not alone.

So whats your guys’ gripe with the backbone of the meta comp being Cele Ele and Cele War instead of a Clerics Guard and a Soldier’s War from the last Metas

Lopez.7369:

I just fought a five-man team with three solo players and a two-man on it.

Bring back solo queue.

Wow, you guys had a duo queue? The matchmaking must have been feeling generous

ukuni.8745:

ive been trying the cele build with bombs/tk/eg and runes of fire, i allways use acid bomb and bob together in fire bomb and since its a 10 second cd on fire bomb when its up and my blasts arnt ill jumpshot at my target threw the fire bomb to get more might and more burning, ill oftenly see myself sitting on 18-20+ might in a fight which nets alot of extra damage, is it better then nades? i dont know yet, there has been times i would have liked the range and condi/power pressure you pump out of nades but ive found bombs pritty effective, something to give a try atleast

Yeah I know that build. When you have outside might sources other than sigil of battle, that means Hoelbrak and Strength runes become much more powerful. Sigil of Fire, I’m not sure if it’s really IDEAL in any build, unfortunately.

Imo, it’s better to use Jump Shot through a smoke bomb to get a stealth magnet pull, which is ridiculously strong.

Also, with Bombs, Egun, Toolkit, your effective range on your damaging abilities is about 400, and few gap closers. I find it’s too easily kited, and requires too much time spent on point.

Let me just say that it’s a really bad thing to think that your teammates are inexperienced, bad, or AFK because their score isn’t maximized.

Let me also add that there are tons of strategies in-game that are great at earning points, but great at wasting time and causing slow rotations.

Remove in-game points from the list of things that you care about, and judge others on.

GhOst.4019:

Yes clarification. Maybe January ESL weekly rules will be adjusted to : if you placed first or second this month already, you cannot enter another ESL weekly tournament. Then the system could grab 8 teams

Banning the top two teams from all streamed matches except for once a month that seems a little bit too forced a way to get other teams winning the weekly cash prizes. In fact that would surely make them log on to compete very rarely.

I say that because weekly finalists are already banned from the gem events organized by Blu that are designed for amateur teams. If teams want to compete without having to play the top teams, there are ways.

I feel it’s extremely unlikely that the WTS Qualifiers would only have 2 teams in the brackets for NA.

When swapping between kits in combat vigorously or at all, there’s an extremely high chance that the Engineer’s back piece will be invisible, despite not being in ‘hide’ mode on the hero panel.

It requires a manual hide and unhide to bring it back.

I’m trying to kill people in style here, and this is making things hard.

Please help!

risenlord.2035:

I feel like this build wouldn’t provide enough pressure. It has tons of sustain but lacks the pressure a proper engi rotation would have. Like Chaith said take doom and hoelbrak, stack might, you’ll hit harder and have more dps pressure.

The might stacking is pretty similar between hoelbrak and fire, and he one second burn extra is decent.

It’s like Hoelbrak just gets a free 20% condi reduction, everything else being the same, lol. 20% might duration is alright, but remember Cele Rifle Engi only gets might through a battle sigil, it won’t affect how many stacks you get by much.

oneply.9586:

why even care about leaderboards now? its a competition of who has more time on their hands now. not really much of a leaderboard imo.

Well I think as player we should care about using our opinions to change the fact that leaderboards were suddenly based on grinding when nobody asked for it.

Completely possible, many people have already theorycrafted this strategy, and it looks to be extremely viable if someone is twisted enough to:

• Have starter or very bad MMR.
• Play other low MMR people.
• Be a 5 man premade that can easily control the results of the match, or just be genuinely be at a starter level of skill.
• Get 400 points for your team and then let the enemy take everything over, and win the game.

Rinse and repeat, your MMR will not increase, you face few premades to stomp you, 500-0, if you’re a solo/beginner player.

Using this strategy you can avoid the extreme reduction of ladder point generation that MMR gives solo queuers, due to attracting constant premade enemies.

I just really hate ladder points. Please Arenanet, come to your senses and have a leaderboard that reflects rating.

Celtus.8456:

Then sometimes 5-10 mins later you’ll get a queue pop and you won’t even be in the same match as your party.

YES. Then after this forced abandoning of the queue happens, one person in the party gets a match even though they weren’t in the queue. And they usually accept, not knowing the rest of the party isn’t with them, and the group is further divided.

Toker and I have been trying to duo queue for unranked for 10 minutes now. As soon as the last person accepts the queue invitation, it abandons us.

This has happened over 5 times in the last week. You just have to say: “Okay. ” and do something else.

I don’t see a lot of complaints about this issue, post here if this is affecting you as well, and perhaps some kind of reasoning as to why this is happening can be discovered.