Guild Wars 2

uberkingkong.8041:

Ramble ramble

What pool size of players you’re picked from has approximately 0% to do with how good a player you are.. UberKingKong I hope your GASM senpais notice you, and you can find happiness.

If being a large open guild instead of a small closed guild actually gave a competitive advantage to a 5v5 team, maybe people would actually do it.

Wintersnight.3061:

No one really cares. It’s boring. You either run the same Cele team that the abjured run and try to win the boring sustain game, or play for 2nd place.

This week at the Go4: Both teams run Thief. Both teams run a Cele Engi roamer. Both teams run two Cele pointholders. DoD Runs DPS Ele and Abjured runs Condi Necro

DPS Ele Sustain > Condi Necro sustain.

You are actually wrong, there is no way that Abjured can be construed to be running a higher sustain comp than DoD. Especially because DoD brings a Battle Standard elite. Confirmed you just associate winning with cheesing, ‘sustain’, and meta abuse, while you don’t really know what either team is doing well. Kappa.

Wintersnight.3061:

Dodge or Die got close in Legacy mid ( a burst friendly map), then couldn’t beat the sustain and got 3 capped.

Actually, it was more like: DoD played extremely well, and aggressive, starting to snowball hard, early game, and then Abjured played extremely aggressive and snowballed harder, late game.

#Public enemy #1

Amaterasu.6280:

First off, as a thief, I will just have to correct the steal/infiltrator’s signet advice. You can’t steal/inf sig against slick shoes because you will just get KD’d right away, guaranteed. Shadowstep works if you’re teleporting to the side/in front of them, but that’s about it.

The idea is to use Steal or Infiltrator’s Signet on something else, not the Engineer.. I thought that was very obvious. And .. why bother putting a condition on Shadowstep for it to counter Slick Shoes? It will always save you from Slick Shoes unless you goof hard.

Amaterasu.6280:

Secondly, with all the advice (which are valid for the most part), we must acknowledge that you’re giving advice on how to not get offensively “dunked” on by a defensive stunbreak utility. As you listed, as the attacker, you have to waste a stunbreak yourself, just to force the target’s stunbreak. It’s a lose-lose situation. That in itself justifies why slick shoes should be toned down/changed.

Sorry but, this makes absolutely no sense. The Engineer profession isn’t like others in where each Utility is often single mindedly defensive. Every one of the Engineer’s abilities that Stunbreak can be used to some varying degrees, depending on how defensive it is..

Saying the fact that Slick Shoes is unherently unbalanced because it does a CC, that’s completely wrong. It can be balanced and still be worth it to stunbreak.

Amaterasu.6280:

That is what separates slick shoes from other stunbreaks. BIG offensive capabilities while being very defensive.

And yet other Engineer stunbreaks are way better in other situations.

If you want to 1v1, Elixir Gun is going to be way more beastly than Slick Shoes.

If you want to teamfight, Elixir S is going to save you many times where Slick Shoes wouldn’t, as well as give you many opportunities to clutch stealth revive and invuln stomp. As well as pull people into their doom with an un-telegraphed skill. Do you remember the forum tears about this before Slick Shoes became meta?

Slick Shoes is meta right now because it performs good in most situations, and it’s the best customization Engineer has to be able to kill people super fast when outnumbering them. In the super aggressive Cele 3-point strat, which is meta right now, quickly busting people in outnumbered advantages is the clear winner. Don’t confuse that for Slick Shoes being an alpha stunbreak. Different meta/role, different stunbreak.

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t really understand some of these defenses for slick shoes. You, as the attacker, have to stunbreak just to do anything against the target’s stunbreak? That makes no sense.

“Just use stability” – Besides warriors and guardians (and sometimes eles), what other class has access to stab like that?

“Just stand still” – Ok, that’s just sad. Let’s just forget that most of the time standing still doesn’t even work.

The list of counters you’re not understanding is pretty lacking, that’s probably why it doesn’t make sense. I’m just gonna drop what to do on each profession when you find yourself tripping over yourself repeatedly:

The meta PvP professions that most commonly get dunked by Slick Shoes are: Slick Shoe Engineers. It’s kind of ironic. There is zero way to get out, and Gear Shield is interrupted. Your only hope is that the Engineer will walk in front of you and you can spam Overcharged Shot him and not be blinded.

Other notable mentions, Ranger, Shoutbow Warriors that choose to not counter-build for stability.

What to do: Be aware of the Engineer’s Slick Shoes cooldown. Kiting an Engineer at an unexpected time can cause him to waste the Slick Shoes chasing you, stunbreak the first knockdown if he hasn’t gotten a full ring around you and run, or if he gets you ringed, after the first knockdown stand still and counter-pressure. And:

Ele: use Lightning Flash or Armor of Earth in order to avoid get dunked,

Necro: use Flesh Wurm in order to avoid get dunked, also spectral walk/death shroud provides temporary safety to be offensive.

Mesmer: I can count the number of time I’ve seen a mesmer get dunked by Slick Shoes on maybe one or two hands. Just keep doing your thing. (Blink, Phase Retreat, Distortion.)

Thief: Shadowstep if necessary, or if available, Steal/Infiltrator’s Signet to port out. Infiltrator’s Return usually works after the first knockdown if standing still.

Engi: Get wrecked, live by the slickies, die by the slickies.

Ranger: Get wrecked, I’m sorry your profession inherently gets pooped on by Slick Shoes. This is probably the biggest injustice. Using Lightning Reflexes the second you get caught works quite often though.

Guardian: Traited Virtue of Courage, Elite, Judge’s Intervention to a nearby enemy, to avoid getting dunked.

Warrior: Bring balanced Stance when facing off against heavy CC based enemies.

CureForLiving.5360:

butch.8136:

We’ll get some more hints and teasers this week. Febr 13 we’ll start getting juicier info (atleast regarding pvp side of things).

Source? Or are you just playing with my hopes here!
I’m personally afraid we won’t hear anything for a few weeks at least.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Ready-Up-Episode-27-Recap-Follow-Up/first#post4751236

Source and recap linked on this thread from PvP forums.

ArrDee.2573:

Static Discharge should work similarly to the Elementalist 15 point Air trait! Except instead of proc’ing on Air Attunement swap, it would proc on toolbelt activation!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I’d be happy with just it just going to your target, as opposed to trying to burrow to China.

Projectile hate should still work against it, just pls work. pls

Dirame.8521:

The direct damage of all these passive procs aren’t that great. But It’s all about the crits that come from them and the fact that you can get a ton of SD procs in a short space of time.

How many utilities can you realistically run that will give you a Static Discharge proc? At some point, it’s like..

Running Utility Goggles will totally be worth it since I can get that extra little rip on my burst?

I think the OP is on to something and you should probably have 3 abilities that proc static discharge properly no matter what utilities you take. It shouldn’t have to be that the only way to get reliable procs is to run Rifle Turret, Utility Goggles, and Toolkit.

Eurantien.4632:

I would rather risk missing my queue pop because of a cinematic or long loading screen and have to queue for another 8 minutes than to just sit around in the Mists doing nothing but waiting for that queue to pop. That is because waiting for 8 minutes doing nothing is worse than doing something for 16 minutes. Just warn new players with this message (or something similar) upon queuing:

“Queuing for sPvP will place you into a queue system. Once you have a spot ready to compete you will be forced into the arena upon acceptance of the queue or you will have to queue again. When the match is over you will be returned but any progress made in an instance will be reset.”

[ ]: Check the box to NEVER SEE THIS MESSAGE AGAIN.

This last part is key. It would drive me nuts If I had to queue and “X” out of this message EVERY TIME that I queued.

The point of forcing people to stay in the mists from Anet’s design perspective is that if people are doing PvE events and actual activities, that will give people the motive to reject the queue. There was no rejecting the queue before, which was overall an improvement to reduce AFK people getting forced in.

Don’t shoot the messenger, I don’t fully support Arenanet’s philosophy on staying in the mists..

I would think the system can simply pull a replacement for people who do reject the queue, or are AFK, like it currently does, but who knows?

Static Discharge, the trait itself, is honestly not that great. I just hit a light golem for 404, on a berserker amulet. Error 404, Damage not found.

If it got nerfed just so it can function with toolbelt abilities, it’d be another trashcan trait, compared to other options.

That would be an easier question to answer for a lot of the playerbase if you weren’t forced into thumb twiddling while you wait in the mists for a queue. It put a lot of unnecessary pressure on queue times.

You’re too dismissive of Stronghold.

PvE Elements don’t correspond with being un-competitive.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Regardless Mr Jones said engineer isn’t that Op and to be honest that is good enough for me. The dude is literally the best player in the game.

I’m pretty sure you aren’t going to do much convincing basing your argument off of: “It’s what the best player in the game says.” Which wouldn’t even be a good way to judge balance, even if he wasn’t completely unknown, and only the best player because he beat you in a series of 1v1s one time. Being the best, or thinking you’re the best doesn’t mean your opinions aren’t biased or incorrect.

Engineer is fine. It still has little dependency on might to function, and it’s… absolutely still a top pick, everyone in this thread is getting trolled hard by a terrormancer who only sees Engineer as a profession to easily fear lock to death.

Archon.6480:

How do specializations affect weapon and utility skills. Do they modify, replace, buff, or simply give additional skills.

The revenant wears a blindfold, does this imply it will have Ritualist style skills. The description kinda sounds more like a new version of dervish. Maybe the blindfold is because the Revenant is a Kormir follower? In short, what are the characteristics of this new class?

Well, I can tell you that Specializations will unlock those mechanics. They will close off certain options in doing so, too. New traits from specializations are to replace current traits. Whether specialization unlocked utilities will replace existing utility/heal/elite skills, as they do traits, that is unknown currently.

Watch the VOD here:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/618175059

Highlights:

• February 13th was noted as the day where Stronghold, Borderlands, and Revenant/Specializations mechanics that interact with the competitive side of GW2 will be discussed in greater detail, featuring Hugh Norfolk.

• Stronghold teaser was teased. The Stronghold teaser will take place on the WTS Quals, taking place February 7th.

• Call of the Mists (magic find) buff for days around the WTS Quals, hold your PvP chests for then.

• Future change to the leaderboards confirmed: They will take into account higher weighting on overall performance, as opposed to an emphasis on grinding.

• Question posed to viewers about Revenants & Specializations, from a PvP perspective: “If a deep-dive is done, a technical theorycraft on the Revenant & Specialization mechanics, what would you like to have discussed?

I specifically want to know how the Revenant’s ability to channel legends will affect the 6-10 skills, and also how they overlap with specializations.

Put your questions on Revenant & Specializations in PvP below, please keep it constructive and don’t talk about how ‘this Ready Up sux’.

Justin ODell.9517:

Solstice.1097:

they are pretty rare as a whole but for some people like high MMR solo queue’ers they are not nearly as rare. we are being punished it feels like even if not true.

This is true, but you aren’t in this category. -snip-

Justin ‘Truth Bomb’ O’Dell for post of the week.

Love your involvement here, I am a big fan.

ManCaptain.3154:

Chaith.8256:

ManCaptain.3154:

Might being the most important buff for engineer, this patch is quite a nerf.

Hm, I say not really. There are plenty of non-might stacking options that were competitive and didn’t get shaved. Quite a nerf, I would say not.

Nearly everything on engineer is hybrid damage, so the might buff by far the best thing for this class. It’s also what makes this class so frustrating to build.

Well, might is certainly very nice, but we’re seeing might stacking options being replaced by non-stacking options at every turn.

Arantheal.7396:

welp, the circle is just about the right size to use the HT combo while still moving straight forward with swiftness. Allows for you to finish it without leaving the field to early, therefore you don’t have to stop in your tracks. And shout-warris already heal in a 600 circle, so there you go.

Yep, that would be why Healing Turret is 480. So you don’t shoot yourself in the foot.

Holl.3109:

The problem I have a with bombs is that it doesn’t stack too much vuln, and also doesn’t proc shrapnel that much. More burning is really nice though!

I also tried out this build with HT and so far it’s been working great. Ofcourse less might but who cares! HT toolbelt + jump shot has saved me many times already. Although I’m considering to switch out fast acting elixirs for something else, since it only reduces 2 CD’s. Any suggestions?

Once you start switching out more elixir traits, you will begin a series of domino effect tweaks that pretty much all land you at the current meta. LOL.

It’ll be like, oh, I’m gonna switch out fast acting Elixirs to Invigorating Speed, and then Cleaning Formula 409, Elixir S, and Elixir B, and HgH get devalued further, so I might as well switch to Backpack Regenerator. And then you just wake up the next day playing the meta build. Haha.

Don’t switch out of Fast-Acting Elixirs is my advice. And also, keep on Grenades instead of Bombs. Just accept the might loss from picking up Healing Turret, don’t make a another bad trade just to get it back via Fire field blasting.

Malacath.9513:

ill take the response as there is no real place in 25 v 25 for engi right now

I have no idea that’s backed by proof of success. I don’t 25v25.

But if I was going to zerg all day, on an Engineer, I surely would want something that can survive while staying with the Driver, have great support, and CC.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNicBN6rslxIyImkPGgdC-TlCEABZfBAwUtihPgAS8AA0S5HgKB7THRjqqAwBCIm9HEDATA-w

Key things that are nice for group play:

• Great combo field mastery: 3 blast finishers – Healing Turret, Acid Bomb, Big ol’ Bomb.
• Combo fields: Water x2, Fire, Smoke, Light.
• CC, – AoE: Magnetic Bomb Kit Refinement, Big ol’ Bomb. Single Target: Grab someone with Magnet, Overcharged Shot into the blob.
• With defensive food, -93% reduction to Cripple, Immob, and Chill. -60% reduction to all conditions.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

I would hope for at least 10v10 otherwise what really makes this map any different from a glorified Legacy of the Foefire?

It’s completely different in the fact that instead of the task you’re doing would not be attaining, conquest points, it’d be to perfecting the wide array of seige type tasks to do. With around equal parts focus on combat.

Moorecore.6349:

B
I am interested to know why they picked 5v5 too though. I assumed it would be 8v8 like the original GW1.

As far as we know ( as far as I know ) they’ve playtested everything from 5v5 to 10v10 as per the post-pax south conversations with Colin.

We don’t know if it’s 5v5 yet. It will require beta feedback.

coglin.1867:

What do you consider “never fixed gadgets”? I didn’t know gadgets as a whole were broken. I have seen rocket boots and utility goggles used regularly since release. I now see very many using slick shoes. I even see PBR used on common enough occasion. They all function as intended to my knowledge.

I would hardly base your dislike of the cool downs and functionality of AED as an applicable bases to declare the entire utility set as “never fixed”.

Rocket Boots and Slick Shoes are the most popular, but when you start replacing kits, or god forbid, Healing Turret with Gadgets your performance takes a massive dive, even with Speedy Gadgets.

This makes double Gadget builds are very hard to make, and even the best ones you’ll have to live with an inferiority complex, lol.

MightyMicah.7451:

Personally, I laugh at people who think celestial is a problem. Every “problem” with celestial becomes irrelevant without might stacking.

Nope, the tears will flow about Celestial Engineer without a single might stack for some time to come.

That’s the intention of a global cooldown! Same reason why Incendiary Powder won’t burn all targets, if procced by an AOE grenade if it crits multiple enemies.

The sigil is not overpowered.. It’s a permanent 1 stack of torment that ticks for like, 80, at 1300 condition damage.

Not anything too far out there compared to things like Geomancy.

insanemaniac.2456:

yeah, better stick with what you know works~

Well you may think I only say that because I’m scared of venturing out of the Cele safe zone, but here’s why Valks is not going to be as good as Cele for a Nade/Toolkit Engi. You already scale from every stat if you bring the meta traits & utilities, why not just equip the proper itemization for that:

Valks with no might has flat 0 condition damage. When it’s no extra investment to bring strong conditions like Incendiary Powder, Shrapnel Grenade, Prybar, doom sigil, it’s a big loss to not have condition damage.

If you wanna use Valk, you ideally want a build that’s tailored to doing primarily power damage, and has great heal scaling.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpmqtbxkLseRCdBNypEGQugKIyFWkPFAA-TJBHwAMLDA4BA0a/hAXAAA

Like that for example.

insanemaniac.2456:

just use valk + int instead of cele + battle, it plays about the same and hits like a truck if you pay attention to your crits

No, don’t do this.

Use Cele. Or go full condi.

Valk is not for an Engineer who builds for a ton of condition application..

ManCaptain.3154:

Might being the most important buff for engineer, this patch is quite a nerf.

Hm, I say not really. There are plenty of non-might stacking options that were competitive and didn’t get shaved. Quite a nerf, I would say not.

Sube Dai.8496:

There were other classes who could stack might though (like rangers). And rather than bring them up to the same level they have made them completely un-viable.

So in a way this patch also hurts build diversity, which is a bad thing.

Hm? Of the tPvP builds that Rangers are concerned with, stacking might is not a feature in any of the meta ones. The Ranger often has sweet nothing in terms of tools to blast might.

If you mean the fact you liked to run double Battle Sigil, Strength runes, you could get like, maybe 12 might.. that’s not a nerf to any specific profession. That’s mostly a nerf to battle sigil.

The meta Engineer Cele build will probably still use Hoelbrak & Battle against immobilize heavy comps, but using Pack Runes and Leeching offers a good alternative.

For Rangers, there are tons of (better) options other than Battle Sigil and +Might duration runes to begin with, don’t be alarmed.

The shave that’s hard to get around will be to the Cele Bunkers, Might stacking Ele/War. They have so much inherent might stacking ability, they are still much better off using Battle and blasting might.

Really, the only balancing that needs to be done a bit swifter, is the Guardian & Ranger vs. Ele & War as the 2 node-holder spots on a team. It’s clearly either Ele/Ele, or Ele/War, unless you want to be winning less matches.

The reason why Ranger and Guardian are much poorer choices in node holder spots, than Ele and War, simply because their damage output and sustain added together as a total value is far inferior.

The fact that the professions that will always might stack have been shaved, and:

• Shield of Judgment: The cooldown on this skill has been reduced from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Shield of Absorption: The cooldown on this skill has been reduced from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.

• Throw Torch: The projectile travel speed of this skill has been increased by 25%.
• Bonfire: The base area of effect of this skill has been increased from 120 to 180.
• Heal as One: The casting time of this skill has been reduced from 1.25 seconds to 1 second.
• Hunter’s Call: The casting time of this skill has been reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1 second.
• Call of the Wild: The cooldown of this skill has been reduced from 35 seconds to 30 seconds.

Ranger & Guardian have seen some tiny buffs, it is only a positive thing in terms of closing the gap to the goal of seeing a Ranger or Guardian replacing/being interchangeable with an Ele or Warrior.

I just really think that if they took off 38 stat points from Celestial Amulet, so it’d not bug OCD people, and be 400 stats a piece, that would be another proper shave for Cele Engi, Ele, and War. This would make Ele/War more in line with Ranger/Guard as node holders, and Cele Engi more in line with other roamer builds.

shimmerless.4560:

I bolded this part because you followed my response with the exact same thing that Chaith did and it’s terribly funny to me. You either don’t see or don’t care how you’re making my argument without any help on my part. I said nothing in specific and yet everyone not only knows who these people are (by name no less) but feels aggrieved enough to come rushing to defend themselves when the ink’s still drying.

In any case I see little reason to continue stating my case since so many of these people are delusional and inured to criticism. They complain about being powerless while they affect the only major balance changes the game ever sees (the latest patch could’ve been a wishlist coming from any one of them — how terribly convenient that might was the problem all along). They portray themselves as opposite the devs even though one of the only known PvP staffers pals around on TS and apparently spends most his working day schmoozing. The names change but the modus operandi stays the same. I could’ve said the same thing about the devs’ unhealthy obsession with Team Paradigm back in the day. I don’t know if ANet just wasn’t confident in their product (possible) and felt the need to seek approval but this issue has been with us from well back before the beta even.

By the way this game itself is not e-sport and with the self-serving attitudes and unwillingness to change on the part of the devs (as well as the diehards and co.) I doubt it’ll be changing any time soon. At this point in time the original GW had been through something like half a million US dollars in competitive prize pools and two world championships with proper LAN matches, and this was a game that was much more complex than its sequel with no Youtube or Twitch or modern advertising amenities to support it. Evidence of something gone terribly wrong speaks for itself.

Yeah yeah, evidence speaks for itself, top players affect the only balance changes the game’s ever seen, everything must be how it appears, you’re not actually saying anything, everyone else but you is on the defensive (even after posting this). We understand.

I’m also pretty sure changing might as a boon itself was on very few people’s forum balance wishlists, if any, where shaving Cele amulet by 25-34 stats was more popular.

NeXeD.3042:

No you didn’t name him but it’s pretty clear which players you are talking about. I don’t understand the infatuation some of the players have with assuming the only reason the abjured, dod, players etc are in some sort of brotherhood with the devs… and they that aren’t really that good. kittening play against them and then tell me they aren’t good. Or just make more excuses why you aren’t esport.

It’s no big deal, even if the top teams were being asked for feedback, it’s a common perception of the peanut gallery that other people’s feedback reflects a lack of knowledge/ability, selfishness, and that of course the real issue is clear from the backseat. Ain’t even surprise me anymore’.

shimmerless.4560:

But of course that’s GW2 in a nutshell for you. It’s a group of around 20+ or so diehards who have a blurry and open border with the dev team. They’re all the same people and pal up with one another regularly. Neither understand that much about how the game works but they’re very convinced of their echo chamber opinions. Dhuumfire was an attempt to respond to “high level” players who had zero clue on what Necromancers offered, for instance.

Blind leading the blind.

Hah, like Arenanet listens to any one group over another. I mean, a scapegoat for perceived balance problems would be nice for you, but really, PvP players incepting the Dhuumfire idea in the Developer’s dreams. That’s my daily dose of humor, lol.

xDudisx.5914:

Tricare.2946:

Putting Stronghold as the GvG game type into spvp isn’t going to work well to represent guilds other than the ones that already spvp.

Having a GvG with 5v5 is already excluding a huge population that doesn’t do spvp as it is because of the small team sizes.

Having spvp gear and stats is another reason a lot of people don’t play that game mode. Most of the wvw pop likes to min max their gear which can’t be done in spvp.

There are more reasons than this but I’m off to work. Hope they will allow a setting to change between spvp rules or wvw rules

Did they say that it is exactly 5v5? I don’t remember seeing that on the livestream. Did they make any post about that? I am hoping it is 8v8 or 10v10

Nobody knows, some might have strong opinions on what it should be or must be, though.

My opinion is that even though the most pure form of GvG was the original 8v8 content in GW1, however, to keep sPvP compatibility between modes/maps I’d lean towards betting Arenanet will opt for a 5v5 in the upcoming Stronghold game.

Other games that shall not be named have had a different number of combatants on each side for various game modes, both competitive and casual, so who’s really to say 8v8 is unlikely?

We’ll know soon enough! I think the revealed the Stronghold beta was starting in six weeks from the announcement? Correct me if I’m wrong.

coglin.1867:

So you want warrior, great sword style movement, with warrior hammer style CC and cleave damage? Seems unlikely.

Yeah.. pretty unlikely indeed.

If I had to speculate I would say with the rocket propulsion, and the fact we’ve likely already witnessed a charging 3 hit hammer cleave movement ability (in the trailer), it’s going to have some movement. Who knows what kind of cleave or CC it will bring, that all depends on how fast it is.

I expect they drew some inspiration for Engineer hammer from the Champion of the Heavy Hammer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iebrici95DM

^footage of that NPC

Holl.3109:

Chaith.8256:

Total sustain from Healing Turret, Backpack Regenerator, and Leap Finishers under optimal conditions: 39,228 healing per minute.

Total sustain with RNJesus on your side: 29,094.
Total sustain without RNJesus on your side: Around 22,000, if you proc Regen 33% of the time, and get Swiftness/Vigor/Protetion for the other times.

Dis make me sad Maths don’t lie…

Although, an option could certainly be to switch out the heal, you wouldn’t lose out on too much. But than again what you said it theoretical, many different things can happen and alter the battle.

Now I’m not saying I don’t agree with you, because I can’t disagree with those maths, BUT lets say HT is on CD and you don’t have any condi clears up when a ranger uses entangle. You can block some but that immob is long, so eventually you would just sit there like a duck.
With 409, use any elixir and jump shot outta there.

Again, not saying I don’t agree, but with the elixirs you can also prevent a lot of damage.
Anywho, thanks for the comparison I will try it with HT and see which one I like/works better

The only thing that’s difficult or ‘in theory’ to do to get the 39k sustain per minute from Healing Turret is to make sure you Jump Shot through Regenerating Mist or Healing Turret each time it’s up. You have two chances. Everything else is dirt easy and completely reliable, especially because Healing Turret won’t be interrupted as much as Elixir H.

Keep in mind too when you’re about to be condi bursted (entangle for example), removing two conditions with Cleaning 409 means a 1-1.5s cast time. Healing Turret removes two conditions in .5 seconds, allowing you to dodge out and prevent more condition spam.

Removing 2 at a time instead of 1 has perks. Healing Turret will give you 6-8 condition removals per minute, 2 at a time, whereas Elixir H will give you 5 condition removals a minute, one at a time. Healing Turret takes 1.5-2s of casting time to get that, and Elixir H takes 4s of casting time to get that.

Unfortunately the only thing Elixir H is better at is giving Might Stacks with HgH, which is sorely missed.

Edit: Yeah, try out Healing Turret, I promise you won’t regret it. You will be much more survivable against everything for the comparably small cost of a loss in might stacks. I know it hurts losing the HgH synergy though but, OP skills are OP.

Terrahero.9358:

So its has been as effective a CC now as it’s ever been. But the fact it’s now more usefull as a stunbreak makes it overpowered as a CC?

In the build creation process, normally, to have something really strong, you should give something up as well.

Nobody will ever QQ on the forums about something if it’s objectively OP, but has too many drawbacks to be a part of an OP build/strategy. I’ll use an analogy:

For example, Fresh Air Eles with Arcana skills doing 12k completely instant, un-telegraphed damage while they’re channelling their heal, facing away lol. (Swap Air, Lightning Strike, Arcane Wave, Arcane Blast.) This is monstrously good damage. But is it overpowered? Yes, but no, because you will rarely win with this glass cannon Ele on your side.

Let’s say they buff Arcane Blast and Arcane Wave over the years, in multiple patches, giving it defensive abilities more like Cantrips. Does the damage that hasn’t changed since launch become overpowered? If it’s not a glass Ele that gets knocked over by a fart doing it, yes, yes it does.

Now that people are able to put Slick Shoes on their Engi and no longer have that Engi as big of a liability in getting CC chained to death, suddenly people are not okay with the puddle of death which was always an overpowered CC, but so specialized that it wasn’t the best choice of a utility.

Hopefully that allows you to understand the new wave of complaints about Slick Shoes.

I think a good change would be to reduce the duration of Slick Shoes’ Oil Slick’s themselves from 3s duration, to a 2s duration.

Disclaimer: If you haven’t done the math on Cele Engineer sustain, this might make you a little sad.

What you get from running Healing Turret and Backpack Regenerator, over Elixir H and Cleaning Formula 409: (Cele Amulet, 439 healing)

• Drop Healing Turret: 2,740 healing.
• Cleansing Burst: 2520 healing (doesn’t scale), and 6s of Regen for 1110 healing.
• Detonate Healing Turret: Blast, 1408 healing.
• Regenerating Mist: 6s of Regen for 1110 healing.
• Jump Shot through Regenerating Mist: 1408 healing.

Since the meta Cele Engi detonates the turret for knockbacks, it doesn’t go for picking it up to get superior healing.

Current Tally from Healing Turret and using finishers properly: 30,888 healing per minute.

Add Backpack Regenerator of 139 healing per second, you get 8,340 healing per minute.

Total sustain from Healing Turret, Backpack Regenerator, and Leap Finishers under optimal conditions: 39,228 healing per minute.

The healing you get from running Elixir H and Cleaning Formula instead:

• Elixir H: 5998 healing.
• Random Regen. For amusement’s sake, let’s say you proc Regen on Elixir H, and toss Elixir H every single time, forever, barely giving you permanent Regeneration. Each toss and drinking of the Elixir has a 33% shot at giving you 13s of Regen, for a 2405 heal over time.

Total sustain with RNJesus on your side: 29,094.
Total sustain without RNJesus on your side: Around 22,000, if you proc Regen 33% of the time, and get Swiftness/Vigor/Protetion for the other times.

You get a 26% drop in healing over time, even with proccing Regen every single time, and never once ever getting Vigor, Swiftness, Protection.

You get a 44% drop in healing over time, realistically. (With random Protection, Swiftness, and Vigor procs.)

I’m not down for that, lol.

Unless you’re removing fat bleeding stacks every time with the extra bit of Condition Removal, ain’t worth!

Overall it’s a much less survivable build, even against condition users, but much higher Nade/Rifle damage.

I didn’t even factor in that you can heal up to 4 allies 18,444 a minute EACH from Regen and simply detonating Healing Turret near them. RIP your team and you without Healing Turret.

Edit:

If you take your build and replace Elixir H with Healing Turret, healing Turret is so OP, it’s actually better than fully traited Elixir H. You will still maintain 17-21 stacks of might, have even better condition removal, and much more sustain.

My HgH build if I was to use it:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUp6q1XxELseNCbBNqxI6jEln85IEgkC-TJRHwAFuAAAeAAk2f4YZAA

Terrahero.9358:

That doesn’t affect the combo. The combo is what people are complaining about, going from OS into a Slick Shoes slipfest. If all that happened was a reduced cooldown (60 to 45) than we should’ve seen this combo be prevalent before.

Something like what happened in September, when the oil slick was changed from lasting 1sec to lasting 3sec. If one spill can cause multiple knockdowns to one target that would be a change that really effects how strong that combo is. As it means a spill you put on the target would cause two knockdowns for a total of 4sec CC, as oppose to previously 2sec.

Interesting theory that it must have had to be a prevalent combo before, but we don’t really have to speculate about the past, it wasn’t prevalent.

The combo did not get stronger. Yes. The frequency in which it happens has, and that means situations happen where Slick Shoes would have been completely negated by a defensive cooldown, but instead, the victim gets wombo combo’d. It doesn’t happen often but the chance of one decisive kill a match, that’s nice.

With the cooldown reduction of Super Speed by 15 seconds, this reduced the reason to not take Slick Shoes, being that Elixir S/E-Gun had much superior survivability. That’s why we see Slick Shoes in practice right now. Not increases to the combo, but removal of barriers.

We did see this combo in practice about 1.5 years ago, as soon as Super Speed became a stunbreak, and it could actually be in a build.

http://www.twitch.tv/chaithh/c/3125426

As you can see, the puddles had a 3 second duration, like they always have, since launch. The increased duration in September from 1s to 3s you are talking about never happened.

Terrahero.9358:

Chaith.8256:

Terrahero.9358:

It’s already a liability, if your opponent evades it, blocks it, blinds it, aegis’ it, hits stability at the right time or worst of all, reflects it.
It is a high risk ability, with a high reward. We aren’t just talking about wasting a cooldown that is important but also putting yourself in a very unpleasant situation that can be turned on you just as easily.

Engineers struggle to bring stunbreaks, and having to use one on your own, backfired, ability is a big loss. If OS becomes any easier to avoid there is no good reason for it to still CC the engineer as well.

But going with how this hasn’t been a problem for two years, with talk instead to improve OS, I’m going to guess its just another phase. Something that became a problem under circumstances outside of Engineers and only in pvp, and when circumstances change so will this cease to be a “problem”.

Circumstances changed so slick shoes become more widely accepted and the rate of abilities Rifle & Slick Shoes Engi can churn out that consume enemy stunbreaks has gone up in PvP

Before when you just had to devote your entire attention and defense to countering Overcharged Shot, it was fine, but now you have to save stunbreaks for Slick Shoes or eat that too. Stacking CC past the rate of that which can be stunbroken has an exponential effect on the usefulness of that CC, thats normally why diminishing returns end up in MMOs.

And what changed causing a combo that has been around for a while to suddenly become really good in the recent couple of months? that is the really interesting question.

If anything, isn’t a more prominent problem that the oil slick persists longer than the knockdown, so it can cause multiple CCs?

Slick Shoes stunbreak reduced CD by 15s,

Slick Shoes reduced CD by 15s.

And afaik it’s being used as intended to repeatedly knock down enemies.

Terrahero.9358:

It’s already a liability, if your opponent evades it, blocks it, blinds it, aegis’ it, hits stability at the right time or worst of all, reflects it.
It is a high risk ability, with a high reward. We aren’t just talking about wasting a cooldown that is important but also putting yourself in a very unpleasant situation that can be turned on you just as easily.

Engineers struggle to bring stunbreaks, and having to use one on your own, backfired, ability is a big loss. If OS becomes any easier to avoid there is no good reason for it to still CC the engineer as well.

But going with how this hasn’t been a problem for two years, with talk instead to improve OS, I’m going to guess its just another phase. Something that became a problem under circumstances outside of Engineers and only in pvp, and when circumstances change so will this cease to be a “problem”.

Circumstances changed so slick shoes become more widely accepted and the rate of abilities Rifle & Slick Shoes Engi can churn out that consume enemy stunbreaks has gone up in PvP

Before when you just had to devote your entire attention and defense to countering Overcharged Shot, it was fine, but now you have to save stunbreaks for Slick Shoes or eat that too. Stacking CC past the rate of that which can be stunbroken has an exponential effect on the usefulness of that CC, thats normally why diminishing returns end up in MMOs.

Kagamiku.9731:

Chaith.8256:

Kagamiku.9731:

Staggering blow has a telegraph.

Fear me is on a 60sec cooldown that requires a secondary skill to make use of. Save your stunbreak or stab for it and it will never be an issue. The 15 second cd of OS coupled with the zero tell is what makes the skill so ridiculous. You’ll never have enough stunbreaks or stab to stop it. Fear me also uses a utility slot, unlike OS which is part of the rifle weapon skillset.

A rune, really? It’s also on an extremely long cooldown and only lasts two seconds. And funny enough, it’s being nerfed next patch.

40second cd means save one stunbreak and it will never mean anything to you.

So yeah, I consider all those skills to be far weaker than OS.

I merely offered common CC chains that you can’t reactively dodge.

If you want to compare ability v. ability, Doom’s 3s fear on a 17 cool down is just as individually strong as OC. But comparing by ability doesn’t make much sense, anymore than comparing by weapon, or any other small context.

The problem with Engi CC is that it keeps the enemy using stunbreaks on overcharged shot, and it leaves them vulnerable to being juggled by slick shoes.

Rifle is not so overwhelming by itself. Professions that bring 2 stunbreaks have to eat 3 overcharged overcharged shots in a row in order to get combo’d by a lone rifle engi. This makes Rifle require a sustainable build to even start getting the CC it’s balanced around landing.

When an Engi brings only slick shoes, and no rifle, save a single cooldown for that, and you’re golden.

Vs. An Engi with rifle and slick shoes, who’s landing everything, your stunbreaks will be overwhelmed. It becomes a matter if you can predict overcharged shot and blind/dodge it. If that happens even once, though, the Engi loses the overwhelm factor.

Professions like AcroThief/Mes bring the tools to completely negate Engi CC, for example.

Meta Cele Rifle build can take a shave to the cooldown on OC of like, 5 seconds. Outside that it’d cease to be a better strategy than Rabid builds. I think that it’s ideal they be balanced at the same strength.

Doom isn’t comparable because it’s a death shroud skill. Not only do they not always have access to the skill, but they have greater limitations while in Death Shroud. Engi on the other hand has OS at all times and can be used each time it goes off cooldown. Plus the tooltip states that Doom is a 1 1/2 seconds fear on a 20second cd so it would require a lot of traiting for it to reach a 3 second fear on a 17second cd. OS is as good as it is with zero trait investment.

Give OS a 1/2 second tell like staggering blow or increase the CD by 10 seconds and i’ll have a lot less to complain about.

Increased cooldown by 66% too harsh

Kagamiku.9731:

Staggering blow has a telegraph.

Fear me is on a 60sec cooldown that requires a secondary skill to make use of. Save your stunbreak or stab for it and it will never be an issue. The 15 second cd of OS coupled with the zero tell is what makes the skill so ridiculous. You’ll never have enough stunbreaks or stab to stop it. Fear me also uses a utility slot, unlike OS which is part of the rifle weapon skillset.

A rune, really? It’s also on an extremely long cooldown and only lasts two seconds. And funny enough, it’s being nerfed next patch.

40second cd means save one stunbreak and it will never mean anything to you.

So yeah, I consider all those skills to be far weaker than OS.

I merely offered common CC chains that you can’t reactively dodge.

If you want to compare ability v. ability, Doom’s 3s fear on a 17 cool down is just as individually strong as OC. But comparing by ability doesn’t make much sense, anymore than comparing by weapon, or any other small context.

The problem with Engi CC is that it keeps the enemy using stunbreaks on overcharged shot, and it leaves them vulnerable to being juggled by slick shoes.

Rifle is not so overwhelming by itself. Professions that bring 2 stunbreaks have to eat 3 overcharged overcharged shots in a row in order to get combo’d by a lone rifle engi. This makes Rifle require a sustainable build to even start getting the CC it’s balanced around landing.

When an Engi brings only slick shoes, and no rifle, save a single cooldown for that, and you’re golden.

Vs. An Engi with rifle and slick shoes, who’s landing everything, your stunbreaks will be overwhelmed. It becomes a matter if you can predict overcharged shot and blind/dodge it. If that happens even once, though, the Engi loses the overwhelm factor.

Professions like AcroThief/Mes bring the tools to completely negate Engi CC, for example.

Meta Cele Rifle build can take a shave to the cooldown on OC of like, 5 seconds. Outside that it’d cease to be a better strategy than Rabid builds. I think that it’s ideal they be balanced at the same strength.

Copestetic.5174:

I don’t want to see the Trinity return which is why I’m concerned. The framework’s there ( in theory ) given the new specialization system and content that’s supposedly difficult. Anything to add to the conversation?

This is the PvP forums. When Arenanet said there will be challenging content, I’m pretty sure that’s not cause for concern that there will be a traditional trinity in PvP comps.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot

^Go here

Kagamiku.9731:

You mentioned that skills similar to OC exist and did not list any. Please explain.

I’m pretty sure OC is the only knockdown I am unable to dodge due to there being zero tell. It’s one of the main reasons that make engineer OP. Along with IP and the three second shield block.

There aren’t abilities that work exactly like Overcharged Shot, but there are tons of un-telegraphed CC chain initiators.

(No-telegraph) Staggering Blow into Backbreaker/Earthshaker.

(No-telegraph) Fear Me into ____.

(No-telegraph) Nightmare Rune (6), or Doom into Fear Mark.

(No-telegraph) Updraft, into Earthquake.

They commonly share the characteristic of being quite close range, 130-400. If you don’t have the stunbreaks ready for somebody’s combo, get away from them.

Overcharged Shot is clearly a really strong skill given the 15s cooldown. I have always suggested an increase to 20s, but the rest of the Rifle is quite an inconsistent weapon compared to how strong Overcharged Shot is. Overcharged Shot really carries the weapon, if you know what I mean.

Copestetic.5174:

Given that they’ve stated the new content is the most challenging they’ve ever created for GW2, is this the usher in of a Trinity system?

Don’t kill me over all this speculation, just voicing my concerns.

Haha. Yeah, there’s speculation and then there’s hallucination.

Meglobob.8620:

A specialization will give that class a new specific weapon (pre-chosen by Anet not you), so example Ranger is getting a staff (5 new weapon skills).

All seemed to be accurate, but it’s not confirmed that each profession shall be getting only 1 new weapon option, nor will that be necessarily linked to the specialization only.

As far as I understood, maybe I’ll rewatch.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Afaik, those are called teams, which happens to be confirmed by Anet and ESL/DPS/Mistpedia/AG.
They are only using the feature to wear the same tags.
They are far from being a Guild, literally.

That’s why I’m kinda with Frozen with the quote ‘best Guild’ for 1 reason:

The players of that team, will switch guildnames, switch teams (or “guilds”) etc, making it far from being the best Guild. There won’t be a solid 1st “Guild” in that Leaderboard.
Those players don’t care about their “Guild”, they do care about their ‘team’ and win.
Lots of players from certain teams switch teams every 2-3 weeks back and forth. This will remain the same. (look ESL)

Which is why I am against the quote saying “nr1 Guild in the Game”.
Because they have no1 but theirselves to bring honor to. Only their tag, whic is the only thing they got.

Hell, some players will be in 2-3 so called “Guilds” in top 10, that’s how much they care about “Guilds”..

Colin has totally tripped you guys up with his comment of ‘finding the #1 Guild’ lol.

How can you prove you have the best guild if you can only use 5 or 8 players in the competition that proves that?

You can’t. Example time!

I could make a large PvP guild, invite literally everyone in the mists, chat with them regularly, help them out, win the World Tournament Series the core group from before, bring the whole guild honor, keep the big roster and be a traditional guild, but that doesn’t change the fact that only the players who participated proved they’re the best. Is my Guild proven to be the best? Well.. according to Colin it is. Even if it was a beginner guild where I helped people with basic rotations and 99% of them were god-awful at PvP.

Don’t get trolled by the #hypetrain conductor. When he said ‘…to determine the best Guild’ it was extremely inaccurate, because fixed roster guilds – known unofficially as teams in PvP – will really be the ones determining who is the best, amongst themselves.

Perhaps Colin simply wasn’t aware that most PvP players aren’t a part of traditional open-roster Guilds like most know them as, because they actually benefit the players for other Game Mode success, just not PvP.

So yeah, determining the best Guild is impossible from Stronghold, don’t sweat it guys. Just get #hyped. For Stronghold. Because it’s going to be a dang entertaining PvP mode to watch.

Do you guys know how fun Lord Pushes in Foefire are to watch, as a viewer? That’s like, edge of the seat stuff. Stronghold has the potential to be pretty popular, in my opinion.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I think your statement is like many others that basically say “its too hard to tell whats going on”. Thats true about pvp in any game that has a mildly intricate pvp system. If you dont watch gvg’s a lot, then you won’t really know whats going on.

Perhaps.

You’re coming from a viewer’s perspective, as a viewer I can see the macro things that are happening, too. My statement was more how the high level micro mechanic skill checks from the players perspective are not there when you increase a teamfight to that size.

ronpierce.2760:

This is the PERFECT game for the arena community and it’s widely an untapped area outside of wow which has “Rpg” limitations for accessibility. I feel ANet is passing up a great opportunity.

After Stronghold, there’s still the small scale (2v2, 3v3) arena, and guild 15v15 groups that need catering to, in an instanced, structured setting.

I’m sure it’s not that ArenaNet is passing up opportunities but instead flying by the seat of their pants to ensure everybody gets the type of cookie they want.