Guild Wars 2

This happens EVERY time when they add new items to the Black Lion Chest.

People rush to buy Keys….open a TON of chests…..then complain that they didn’t get their new shiny.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results – Albert Einstein

Lambros Augustus.6594:

I don’t need a gold sink just a way to get my precursors of choice without depending on pure chance. Making legendaries is gold sink enough and making a legendary for each weapon slot and favored alt(s) adds up. More inspiring legendary skins too please. At the moment it doesn’t seem I will ever get a precursor or one that I want.

There is a way to get your precursor of choice…..it’s called the Black Lion Trading Company.

You can go on there, search for the item you want, then buy it from someone that has one, but doesn’t want it. That takes all the chance in the world out of getting your precursor of choice.

Oh…..is it that you don’t like their price? Hmmmm…..don’t know what to tell you then.

Sojournion.1847:

the higher pre orders belongs to the same people that is selling the precursors.

You’re SURE about this? You have supporting data? This isn’t speculation on your part? It’s not a conspiracy theory?

From now on, I’m taking your word over John Smith’s. I mean really….what does THAT guy know?

Btw……

/end sarcasm

Gasoline.2570:

No, the supply is the driving force. The supply created by arenanet. It’s all in the hands of arenanet. They control the supply, they know how the prices will be, they also promised fixes that are increased drop rates and Bullkitten Hunt – uhh I mean scavenger hunt(which was nothing but a damage control PR spin that never actually materialized or was actually being worked on at any point. Just something a dev said out of their behind to make people calm. Can’t say it didn’t work.)

It’s ALL in the hands of the creators. This silence or “monitoring” (aka doing nothing) if you will is absolutely disgusting.

Arenanet is the only force capable of fixing this situation. Or if this really does keep up even after todays patch, then I guess we should just all agree this EXACTLY what they want – which also means they unethically straight up lie to their playerbase. Not good business ethics is it.

Yeah….because injecting a bunch of precursors into the market would be a good thing? I don’t think so. All that will do is make Legendaries less legendary because they’ll be too easy to get and SO many people will have them.

You’re upset because YOU don’t have YOURS yet and you want it NOW!!!! I don’t have a Legendary either….but I’ll get one eventually. It’s a long term goal for me….as it’s intended to be.

If everyone an their dog had a Legendary, I don’t think I’d want one anymore….nor would a lot of people.

Making precursors (and by extension…Legendaries) easier to acquire doesn’t help the game. The number of precursors in the game and their prices are fine….which means the methods of acquiring them are fine.

I believe Anet IS still working on a Scavenger Hunt….but we won’t see it any time soon. I fear it will screw up the precursor and Legendary system though by giving a guaranteed way of getting one.

I’ve said this in many threads and I’ll say it again here….

Legendaries are meant to be difficult to acquire. They’re not meant for everyone. They should take a lot of work to get one. Whether that means a lot of farming….a lot of dungeons….a lot of WvW….a lot of time playing the Trading Post…..it doesn’t matter.

Just because other people have them, that doesn’t mean you should have one too. You can still get yours….it’s just going to take you some more time to get one. Be patient. Have fun. Play the game.

If having a Legendary right now is the only reason you’re playing…it sounds like you’re not really having fun anyway. It’s a game…it should be fun.

Gasoline.2570:

Look at the trading post. What is going on? All of them are starting to hover 600g. Hunter went in like 2 weeks 200g and so forth.

Hey anet are you listening? Oh wait you’re monitoring

Aka not doing anything, coz that’s how it really seems like. This is just faaantastic.

Do you think it could have anything to do with speculation regarding the patch tomorrow?

From what I understand, the mega-boss chests are going to change so that the guaranteed rare drop will be once per account per boss per day and be separated out into it’s only “chest” like the Daily and Monthly reward.

People are assuming this means a dramatic reduction in rares and a lower likelihood of receiving a precursor via those rares being “upgraded”.

The speculation could also be about what people can affordably get their hands on. I have a feeling people are also assuming that since some Legendaries had their effects overhauled in the last patch (the more popular ones) that the less popular ones will receive some attention in this patch. If they do…and the effects look pretty cool….these less popular Legendaries could become MORE popular. Those that have the precursors for those less popular ones could stand to make substantial money on them.

Not everything is a giant conspiracy. Anet is not out to screw us over….or “force” us to convert gold to gems.

Anet is monitoring the situation currently because they don’t have a great option to implement right this very second. I have a great amount of faith that if they feel there is a real problem, they will do something about it. If it was completely out of control, I’m sure they’d intervene sooner rather than later….but as it is….the single exotic weapon used to craft the most exclusive item in the game doesn’t seem too overpriced to me.

The market of every single item on the Trading Post is player controlled. Instead of complaining that Anet change it to make it easier for you, perhaps you should speak to the players that are pricing it out of your grasp. I’m assuming it’s out of your grasp because most people don’t complain about things they CAN afford.

….and before you say anything…..

No. I don’t have a Legendary.
No. I don’t have a precursor.
No. I’m not one of the people “manipulating” the precursor market.

Redscope.6215:

That’s why legendary items can be sold at the TP, because otherwise people would HAVE to 100% the world and craft in order to have a legendary item. Some people in this game, as easy as it is, will never do those things out of lack of interest.

THIS is a GREAT point…..and is EXACTLY why all things in the game should NOT be created equal!!!!!

Personally….I don’t think Legendaries should be sold on the TP. Those people that aren’t interested in doing the things that are required to gain a Legendary should NOT be allowed to have one. Period.

Amun Ra.6435:

Rebort.6295:

Amun Ra.6435:

Rebort.6295:

Amun Ra.6435:

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Price keeps Legendary…. Legendary. Skill at TP is just as valid as skill at adventuring.

Very true…but both should be equal in the amount of gold you can get for the time put in.

Idea: No more item drops. Everyone is paid Xg/hr for being logged in. Also, no more TP. Wouldn’t want anyone to make g. Everything obtainable from npc. Ya, I’d play that game.

Huh? This comparison is just as ridiculous as the burger flipper/Surgeon.

If you mean to say not ridiculous at all but aptly put, thank you. If you meant you would like a surgeon to operate on you while making minimum wage, good luck to you.

Dude…stop while you are behind…

By the way…..maybe it’s you who should stop while you’re behind. There are far more people commenting on how ridiculous your statements are than are commenting on theirs.

Amun Ra.6435:

Rebort.6295:

Amun Ra.6435:

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Price keeps Legendary…. Legendary. Skill at TP is just as valid as skill at adventuring.

Very true…but both should be equal in the amount of gold you can get for the time put in.

Idea: No more item drops. Everyone is paid Xg/hr for being logged in. Also, no more TP. Wouldn’t want anyone to make g. Everything obtainable from npc. Ya, I’d play that game.

Huh? This comparison is just as ridiculous as the burger flipper/Surgeon.

I think that’s the point. Your statement about making the same amount of gold in the TP vs. running around killing stuff is equally as ridiculous as the burger flipper / surgeon comparison.

His idea was, if I understood it correctly, complete sarcasm. He’s saying that if every method of obtaining gold is equal, then farming / playing the TP / running dungeons / role playing / EVERYTHING is unnecessary and giving gold to players based on how long they’re logged in is an equally good method….and it would be.

Again….without actually saying the words….you’re implying that some methods of playing the game are a more acceptable way of gaining wealth while others are not.

Why should everything be equal? I don’t know of a single game where no matter how you play, you’ll gain wealth at the same rate as everyone else. If you can name one and explain in detail how everything in that game is equal, I will gladly retract my statement about not knowing of a game where everything is equal.

The burden of proof is on you to support your claims / suggestions / ideas.

Please explain why….exactly…..everything should be equal and I will be more than happy to read and consider your opinion.

I feel that a couple of the repeatable achievements would need to stay in.

I understand that new players will not be able to catch up to Veterans……but should they be able to? Also, if all repeatable achievements were removed from the total calculation, that would suggest there is a set number of achievement points that can be earned….and no more unless another achievement is added. What happens to the Leaderboard at that point? Do we see 10,000 people with the max number of achievement points? Woo hoo…..great leaderboard.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

That was me. And it was 2k Gold to prove that I couldn’t manipulate anything. But a I was infracted for that thread because we’re not supposed to address Devs directly, so I gave up on that idea.

I couldn’t remember who it was…..but I was VERY interested in the outcome of that idea. It’s too bad you were infracted for it. Several of us thought it was a great idea and actually supported it. I hope you didn’t feel I was “calling you out” for not accepting the challenge…..it was just sad to see that thread die. :-)

Amun Ra.6435:

Desire? Luxuries? Dude…this is a game…it’s not real.

I’m sorry…..let me break out my thesaurus.

Instead of “desire”…..is “want” a word you can understand more easily?

And how about the phrase “expensive items” in place of “luxuries”?

It’s interesting to note that you ignored everything else I wrote in that post, just to point out that you disagree with my choice of words.

…….at least you read all the way to the end, so I thank you for that.

Amun Ra.6435:

First of all, I never said my way or any other way of playing is more acceptable or unacceptable to any other…please quote me saying that in any other post, if you can.

I think this about covers it….

Amun Ra.6435:

I see no reason why people playing the TP should have an advantage over people who grind content.

You’re stating that playing the TP is an unacceptable way of playing the game because they have an “advantage” over you. They don’t actually….they just choose to play the game differently than you do.

You actually responded with anger and trolling while trying to explain that you weren’t trolling….

Amun Ra.6435:

Secondly…anger and trolling? So now we live in a communist country void of laws protecting free speech? GG. Am I angry because I have my own opinion and not afraid to express it? Am I angry because I just don’t bow down to what others think is the right or wrong way to play a game? Please explain this anger and trolling you speak of. I will admit…I blow once at someone and regretted it, have not before or since.

I don’t remember saying anything about suppressing your opinion or that you didn’t have the right to free speech….or that we live in a communist country….

Feel free to express your opinion. Be angry. While you’re doing that, please keep in mind that other people have their opinions too. You don’t have to agree with them, but you should listen to them.

Amun Ra.6435:

But I tell you what…paypal me all the money I have put into this game to date and I might consider playing how you want me to.

I never asked you to play the game the way I do. I couldn’t care less if you play the way I do. If you like playing the way you do….great….but it sounds like you don’t.

If the way you’re playing doesn’t afford you the luxuries you desire, you may want to consider one of the following two options:

1. Modify your play style in a way that affords you the luxuries you desire
2. Keep playing the way you do, but seek different luxuries that are more in line with your income level.

Amun Ra.6435:

Envy? man, you need a girlfriend/boyfriend…anyways…I see no reason why people playing the TP should have an advantage over people who grind content.

Without directly answering my question, you answered my question. Thank you.

Now I can comment.

What makes you so special? Why is your way of playing the only acceptable way of playing?

Every time I read one of your posts, all I see is anger, attacking of other players, or out-and-out trolling. If you hate this game so much, please go play another game that suits your gaming style better and leave this horrible game to the rest of us that are too stupid to know any better. I BEG YOU!!!!

You’re doing your math wrong.

1600 + 1600 + 800 = 4000 not 4200

They’re all the same price per Gem.

Amun Ra.6435:

No, we actually prefer to do content? Again…Really?

Are you suggesting that one type of content is an acceptable means of getting your precursor, while another type of content is not? Which content are you referring to in your statement?

I only ask because there are many different content paths that can lead you to a precursor and I’d like to know exactly what you’re talking about before I comment.

Wayfinder.8452:

Maybe because there is little real communication with the community on these forums. When you’re hungry you’ll eat what you’re given.

I was wondering if this comment is alluding to a different conspiracy theory you may have…..

Conspiracy Theory: John made up that graph just to shut us up.

Personally, I don’t think that’s the case. He’s been very forthcoming about data when he can provide it. Is he giving us everything he has available to him? No….and he shouldn’t. If he did, people wouldn’t be looking at is as “Oh, Anet cares about the community”…..they would look at the data and think “How can I exploit a loophole to make money / grief other players / etc.”.

You know…rather than posting the same thing again and again….it’s probably better to +1 the thread with the highest +1 count so that it shows how needed / wanted this is.

As it is…every new thread about the same subject dilutes the need / want instead of saturating it.

This is not something that I, personally, want to do, but there are quite a few people that WOULD do this. I support the game through Gem purchases and will buy expansions and such. I don’t, however, need, nor want, to be recognized for it.

It would give those players that do want that recognition a way to show it…..and might even put some more money in Anet’s pockets as people will want to “max that title”.

Out of the 1000’s of ideas I see posted in this forum….this one isn’t NEARLY as horrible as most. Is it needed? No. Would people use it if it was available? Maybe. Are there players that would spend a ton of money on and convert a lot of gold to Gems because “OMGZZZZZZ!!!!! I gottaz maxxxxxx taht tititititititle!!!!!”? Yep!!! Most definitely!!!!

Fyrebrand.4859:

Isn’t this more or less the idea behind Gem Store items in the first place, like the Quaggan/Charr backpack, outfits, broomstick, etc.?

Yes and no.

While those things do show that you bought certain things from the Gem Store….there’s nothing that shows how many things in TOTAL you bought at the Gem Store….basically how many Gems you’ve spent.

Things that aren’t taken into account:

1. Bank Tabs
2. Bag Slots
3. Booster Packs
4. Dye Packs
5. Town Clothes you aren’t wearing
6. Black Lion Keys
7. ….

It’s by no means something that needs to be done….but if people wanted to visibly show their support for Anet in game…..a title like this could be the vehicle for that.

They could do 2 different “supporter” titles

Real money to Gems: “ArenaNet Supporter”
Gold to Gems: “Economic Supporter”

Both of those activities support ArenaNet and the overall health of the game. The problem would be creating Tiers to show off how BIG of a supporter you are.

Fanboy / Fangirl could be a title that’s based off of finding lore / places / things to read around the world. It’d be kind of like an extension of the Explorer Title.

You know…rather than posting the same thing again and again….it’s probably better to +1 the thread with the highest +1 count so that it shows how needed / wanted this is.

As it is…every new thread about the same subject dilutes the need / want instead of saturating it.

Amun Ra.6435:

Dude, really? There was a shock to the market…even if I was 100% correct…which I never suggested, it would be impossible to control that. I have no reason to believe that given time, if I am correct…that it can not be manipulated again.

Actually….you did suggest that it’s possible to control / manipulate.

Amun Ra.6435:

As of this writing the prices/bids of ectos seem to be blatantly manipulated. Either the same person or group of persons seems to be keeping the sell price/bid within 20c or each other.

Also…..I think you have a real misconception about what’s going on with ecto prices right now. They aren’t being manipulated. They aren’t being controlled. They are being speculated based on the recent announcement of the changes to the mega-boss loot chests that will happen in the next update.

People are freaking out!!!! Some people are buying every ecto they can get their hands on for fear the price will go up….and you know what…..the price is going up because they’re buying them. Then you have the people that have a stockpile of ectos that are selling them off making a fortune off this speculation.

We, the players, set the prices of EVERY item on the Trading Post. When people speculate / start rumors / discuss trading strategies / “give away a gold mine”……what happens? Prices on the items being talked about fluctuate…..some by HUGE amounts.

John has said many times that it would be nearly impossible for a single person, or small group of people, to completely control any given market…..much less the entire Trading Post. At one point, a fellow player asked John for 200g (or something like that) to PROVE he could manipulate the Trading Post. John responded with a challenge to write a 10 page proposal on this players exact methodology as to how he was going to invest the 200g. That player never accepted the challenge. I’m guessing that John knows more than we do about the Trading Post, the GW2 game economy and what is and isn’t possible from a player standpoint.

Astraea.6075:

One potential problem occurred to me with regards to the suggestion of paying the 5% listing fee out of sales revenue when filling buy orders.

As the TP currently operates, if I try to sell a larger quantity of goods to a buy order than is ordered at that price, the remainder of my goods get listed at that price. So if I didn’t have to pay a listing fee up front for filling buy orders, then what stops me from creating a small buy order at my desired price point and then overfilling it to get my items listed for potentially zero fees (i.e. I only pay if they sell, otherwise I can remove them without incurring a loss of fees).

I know there are a few methods that could be used to fix such a problem, but it does add another layer of complexity to implementing such a change.

This is a very good point and one I hadn’t thought of. I think it could be solved fairly easily though and I’d like to toss an example out to see if I understand the situation you’re describing.

Let’s say you have 200 items you want to sell. The current highest buy order is at 50c each. There are 180 of these buy orders in place, by one, or multiple buyers. If you were to sell to them, 180 of the items would be sold immediately and the other 20 would be placed up for sale as a sell listing (and without additional checks in place….listed for free).

If you were only able to sell to those 180 existing orders at a single price and the other 20 didn’t get listed, it would solve that problem. You, as the seller, would then have to decide if you want to sell the remaining 20 at the next highest price. What if there’s only 15 orders at the next highest price? Well….you could sell 15 of them at the next highest price, then decide what you wanted to do with the remaining 5.

As it exists now, many savvy sellers (or maybe a more appropriate term is “dedicated TP players”) don’t sell to buy orders as they are trying to maximize their profits. It would actually be a little more inconvenient to sell to buy orders when you have more items than other players currently want at the current price, but would give those players that “get lucky” without the 5% up front a way to sell their wares.

John Smith.4610:

When considering changing the fees (it’s not a tax) there are side effects that we must think about. For example, if we shift how the fees function between instant sell and sell later how does that effect the demand for buy orders? Small, seemingly innocuous changes like this can have a profound impact on how players interact with the market and change the nature of what’s happening on the trading post. In a live game you need a really good reason to make changes like this, and a lot of work making sure you know EXACTLY what’s going to happen when you do.

I agree completely. It’s our job as players to view the game from our side to see if changes could be made to the current systems that would make them “better”. I’m not saying the idea I proposed has to be implemented (like many players do). All I ask is that you review the idea and determine its impact and whether or not it could be an improvement over the current system.

At least you’ve read the idea and understand it. Whether or not it gets implemented….that’s your job to determine. I didn’t make the game, nor do I believe you “owe me anything”. I love GW2 and will continue to play it….and continue to offer my suggestions for improving it.

Thank you for your response. I have complete faith in ArenaNet.

Without us (the players), you wouldn’t have a need to develop a game. Without you (the developer), we wouldn’t have a game to play.

Keep up the good work!!!!

Minion of Vey.4398:

I’ve come to really like the 15% system, with 5% on the list and 10% on the sale.

As for the main reason why it’s not 15% on the sale and is 5/10 instead. It’s just so we don’t have to engage in a monotonous activity of listing/relisting anything of value 50 times while our 20 competitors remove their listings at no cost and put them back up at the lowest price.

I completely understand why it’s 5/10…..and I’m NOT talking about moving everything to the back end for all trades…..ONLY when filling an existing buy order….a GUARANTEED sale. Not a sell listing. Not something that could be abused by putting up a listing for free, then pulling it later to abuse or manipulate the market.

This has obviously become far too difficult of a concept to explain, or people aren’t actually reading the posts.

Since it seems the concept is too difficult, I retract my opinion as it would obviously cause an insane amount of confusion when selling items on the TP if Anet were to actually implement such as system.

Thank you to those that understood my idea and were able to discuss it effectively.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Perhaps a mid way point between the suggestion that Behellagh made (16% fee off the backend) and mine (25% fee off the backend). Without any additional fees/tax/penalties, it wouldn’t be fair to the players who do have the money to pay the up front fees.

In fact, you could then consider paying the 5% up front like a discount, should the back end fees go up.

I guess what I don’t understand is….

Why would you want to punish poor players more just because they’re poor?

Selling to a buy order is already somewhat of a punishment in and of itself. You have to take less money if you want to sell it now. It’s the same when selling anything to a buy order. The lower income is punishment enough.

Why have 2 different sets of fees?

Nothing changes if you move the full 15% in fees to the backside of the trade when filling a buy order. 15% of the sale is still being removed from the economy. Players are still making sales. Other players are getting the items they want for less money.

I look at your idea as the reverse of what’s going on in the US economy. People complain constantly that the rich should have to pay more just because they make more money. This is a fundamentally flawed way of thinking. Everyone should pay the same. Rich. Poor. It doesn’t matter.

In this example regarding selling to buy orders in the Guild Wars 2 Trading Post, punishing the poor more than other players doesn’t help anyone. What it would actually do is make fewer people fill buy orders.

As a seller, If I knew I was going to lose even MORE money than the standard 15% just because I’m filling a buy order, why would I, or anyone for that matter, fill a buy order?

Erahdel.2950:

I would really like to see those included in the “31 days of sales” rather than garbage items, like hourly 50% exp boosters or useless town-clothes.

Nothing in the Gem Store is useless. Everything there serves one purpose….to make money for ArenaNet. Players find certain items more desirable, but that doesn’t make other items useless.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I see your point. Yes the 15% is removed from the game regardless.

One could argue that selling your goods at the lower “Buy Order” is still profit. You make the choice to sell it now, rather than later for a chance at more. So it’s not much of a forced opportunity/penalty cost, but more of impatience.

Overall, I see the Trading Post as a tool, and you need to pay up front in order to use/access that tool. Just as I paid up front to buy Guild Wars 2 before I could play it.

I see your point as well….and it’s a good one.

All I’m proposing is opening up the Trading Post to MORE people….which I don’t see as a bad thing.

It helps by allowing those with little money to bring some in…..and those with buy orders to get items a little cheaper.

It’s a win / win in my book. :-)

Geotherma.2395:

I just wanna say that I flooded the market with like… a TON of ectos when I did that salvage test lol.. Because there was another 200 salvages after the 800 I already did. Sorry about that..

Way to go…..

MARKET MANIPULATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heheheheh

Edit: Nice post on the Ecto salvage rates btw. I enjoyed reading and following it.

Amun Ra.6435:

I find it highly unlikely that a player would not buy an item, no matter what item, for a mere 20c…

This is common in criminal cases where a person or group of persons buy and sell stock at close to the same price…AKA: Market Manipulation. This is not a conspiracy theory.

Well…..I’ve got about 10,000 Green Wood Logs I’ll sell you for 20c more than the going price if you’d like them. If that’s not enough, I’m sure I can get about 100,000 more.

In all seriousness…..consider the item you think is being “manipulated”. Globs of Ectoplasm.

Where are Ectos used?

They’re used to craft any and every Exotic weapon and piece of armor that can be crafted. They’re used in crafting Legendary weapons. They’re used to buy things from vendors as well.

Where do Ectos come from?

They come from salvaging Rare and Exotic armors and weapons.

So….basically….they’re a high end item that is in both a moderately high supply and even higher demand.

A price gap of 20c is pretty understandable to me. It’s close enough not to make it profitable for flipping, yet far enough apart for players to not have to spend as much to use them.

Seems about right to me.

Btw….I’ve still got those Green Wood Logs if you want them.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

My argument from a different thread is that the 5% up front fee is a normal, acceptable amount. If you can’t afford it, you then get the incentive to play and earn it, or not sell.

To add to that, Behellagh suggests a higher percentage (16%) charged to players who can’t afford the up front fees. My opinion is that if a system is in place to allow players to bypass the up front fees, the percentage taken should be 25% off the back end. That way, if you really want to sell something you can’t afford to sell in the first place, you make the choice to get less. Sorta like real life Payday Loans, where people pay insane interest rates for a short term cash advance. You can call it a “penalty” or an “opportunity cost”.

I tend to disagree with the increase of the transaction fees above the standard 15%. There’s no reason for it. There are many examples where the idea I posted early could be used by nearly everyone ranging from the broke to the rich.

The example of someone that’s broke getting lucky is the easiest to understand. No additional penalty is necessary due to the fact that the ONLY price you can sell something at that places the 5% listing fee onto the back end instead of requiring it up front is the price that the highest buyer has set. This means that the player is already taking a penalty by being forced to sell it at a lower price now, or hold on to it and sell it for a higher price (hopefully) later once they have the money to cover the listing fee.

Selling to the highest buyer has an opportunity cost and further “punishment” or “penalty” isn’t necessary.

Normal players could benefit from this as well. What if you just spent the last money you had on WP travel, then killed an enemy, but couldn’t pick up the drop. That player could sell some stuff from their inventory to the highest buyer without needing money on them to do so….right from the field of play….then pick up their item.

Not everyone carries a couple of gold around on their characters all the time….some players just can’t afford to. I have a feeling there are a LOT more poor players in the game with only a few gold to their name than there are rich players.

There are two costs the player incurs. The first is the opportunity cost of selling at a lower (much lower in some cases) price. The second is the standard 15% of the sale price placed on every sales transaction through the Trading Post.

If a player has the money to cover the listing fee, they can bypass the opportunity cost and sell at a higher price if they want to. They will still encounter the 15% fee if their item sells.

If they don’t have the money to cover the listing fee, they can bypass the opportunity cost by holding onto the item until they DO have the money to cover the listing fee.

Either way….15% of the sale is removed from the economy.

Behellagh.1468:

Vol.5241:

Charismatic, I totally understand your reasoning behind removing the 5% fee, but just thinking from Arenanet’s perspective, it makes things worse removing it

That’s 5% more gold in the economy that can influence inflation. Players right now are already content with this.

He’s not talking about removing it, just moving it to the back end only when you already have a buyer. You still will loose 15%, you just won’t need 1/3rd of it up front.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I guess I just haven’t been able to explain it well enough. I’ve tried a couple of times, but can’t think of a better way for people to understand my thought. I know some people get it right away and others get it a little later, while others never will. That’s ok….and maybe that means it shouldn’t be done as it would add a layer of confusion to the process.

LFk.1408:

The only thing I like about this entire idea is the Break Kneecaps skill.

If you defaulted on a loan, your account’s characters permanently have the crippled condition until you pay it back. Awesome.

EDIT: Ooh! and there’s already a sound file for “AHH! My leg!”. That would play every few minutes.

Ok…..this has to be the single greatest comment in this thread. That may be the best incentive to repay the loan….even above needing collateral or having your account locked out.

It would basically make your account unplayable and would be a reminder to EVERYONE that sees you what happens when you don’t pay back your loan.

Behellagh.1468:

So this is about not having enough cash on hand to post a precursor you don’t want?

Or an equally expensive, high in demand item with ready buyers.

Yes….that pretty much sums it up.

To throw a little data behind this….

Currently there are:
Number of different items with a price of 100g or higher: 67
Number of sell listings for those items: 508
Number of buy orders for those items: 72094
————————————————————————-
Edit: I realized these values do not reflect the actual averages. They are simply the average of the current sell price and buy price of the 67 items. Don’t take too much stock in these values.
Average Sell Price: 769g95s73c
Average Buy Order Price: 417g71s49c
————————————————————————-

While it may seem to be a relatively small number of independent items, the demand for those items is considerable.

Edit: Before anyone says anything….

Yes…I realize buy orders =/= demand and sell listings =/= supply. :-)

LHound.8964:

Charismatic,

Assuming that the listing fee is charged after the item is sold as you claim, then, what would happen if the item was not sold? Should the fee be charged? Should the item be stuck there until you have the fee’s gold to “un-stuck” it? Would it be better?

You see, I’m one of those players that have ~20g. But if a precursor dropped, i would work hard to place it on the market. I would even ask a friend for a loan until i get the income from that precursor!

We can’t chance a good solution although not quite the best for every case in the world, just because of that minority! It would ruin the balance and the trading post! We could see also Phantom listings just to increase or decrease the items value!

IMO, it’s necessary that when you fill a buy order you have to pay the fee in front! Doing this would make the trading post more effective as it makes players think if they are willing to spend the fee’s money and if the item is worth that cost!

/cheers

When you fill an existing buy order, you ALWAYS sell the item. It’s a guarantee…and the reason why I feel the 5% listing fee could be deferred to after the sale. The suggestion I made ONLY applies to filling buy orders. It in no way would allow a system where you could choose to defer the 5% to after the sale on other transactions. You’re still paying 15% of the sale price in fees.

This idea would in NO WAY allow for a player to post an item for sale without paying the 5% listing fee, nor the 10% sales fee for selling an item. It also would not allow a player to post an item up for sale for free, or have their listing fee returned to them.

Selling to a buy order is a guaranteed sale….unless someone beats you to it….but in that case, the sale would fail and the player would have to sell to a different (lower) buy order.

Behellagh.1468:

You need to look at the other thread discussing the posting fell.

Short version from my POV. The TP is a simulation of how it would work in the real world. Assume that there’s two clerks. Clerk A who accepts the item for sale, takes the fee and gives you paperwork about the sale while Clerk B takes the paperwork, checks to see if it sold and who dispenses money’s to the seller if it was.

I fully understand how the Trading Post and it’s fees work currently. I have also read that thread.

The question that I asked is….

Does it need to work that way when filling an existing buy order? I am of the opinion that it does not.

If we think about how much money the average player has and realize that half the players have less money than that. How much do you think the average player has? 10g? 20g? Less?

If that’s the case, if one of those average players “gets lucky” and has a precursor drop for them…..they have no way of selling it. They don’t have enough money to cover the listing fee. If they were given the option to sell at a lower price and have the listing fee come off the back-end instead of the front end….it would really help a lot of that type of player.

Ryuujin.8236:

It seems like a terribad idea; those people’d get spammed to death with everything from accusations of cheating to beggers asking for gold.

The OP stated that their names would be kept private.

It would just be a list….with possibly a server they’re on.

trane.4569:

Upon the latest Forbes’ list of the wealthiest people on the planet, I though it’d be funny if our beloved (or “not so beloved” by some) economist John Smith do some sort of top 50 list which would show the wealthiness of the richest people in the game.
Obviously, he would need to hide the player’s names and use their server name, or something like that, instead.

What do you people think about that?

While I think it would be interesting to find out how much the richest people have, it would have to be based solely on how much gold they have in their account.

Also….I think we’d find a LOT of people complaining about them being botters, hackers, cheaters, gold sellers, etc.

It’s probably just best not to provide that information to an already entitlement-minded crowd.

Does anyone know what happens right now if there is only one buy order to fill, but 5 people try to fill it?

Does one person sell it to the buyer and the other 4 create sell listings? Or….does one person sell it and the other 4 get an error stating the trade has failed?

Iruwen.3164:

When you list it, simply include the fee, problem solved. The buyer will pay all of it.

This isn’t the question at hand.

Currently, no matter how you sell something on the Trading Post, you’re required to have 5% of the sale price in your inventory to cover the listing fee.

Several of us feel that when you fulfill and existing buy order, instead of placing your item up for sale as a sell listing, you shouldn’t need to have that 5% in your inventory and it should be taken out of the sale price.

When fulfilling an existing buy order, you’re making the sale instantly. There won’t be a listing you could cancel and avoid the 5% listing fee.

This is particularly important on very high price items, like precursors.

Let’s say that someone gets lucky and has a precursor drop for them. They don’t want it, so they decide to sell it. In this example, I’ll use numbers that don’t correspond to any specific item.

The current lowest sale price for this item is 500g.
The current highest buy price is 400g.
The player has 5g to their name.

So….they don’t have the 25g they need to cover the listing fee if they want to sell it for 500g. They should have the option to sell to the current highest buyer without having to pay the 5% up front since they will be making an immediate sale.

The situation should be this when selling items on the Trading Post:

Selling to the highest bidder: 15% taken off the back
Selling at any other price: 5% up front to create the listing, 10% off the back when the item sells.

When selling to the highest bidder….the sale ALWAYS happens.

Ursan.7846:

Pandemoniac.4739:

I get that part – the listing fee puts downward pressure on the sale prices, but if you’re filling a buy order, why would you need the listing fee up front instead of just deducting it from the sale?

When you’re filling a buy order, there is differentiation between “up front” and “after the fact” since the transaction happens immediately.

I don’t know if that differentiation needs to be in place when filling a buy order though.

If you find something valuable, but don’t have the 5% to list it for sale, you should be able to elect to have 15% taken out of the total sale price by filling the buy order.

It ends up being the same percentage, except it’s 15% applied to the back end when filling a buy order instead of 5% up front and 10% on the back end when placing a sell listing.

FirstBlood.7359:

There are many other ways to control inflation. It’s just a cheap and lazy way to do it via the trading post tax. The purpose of a market is the efficient allocation of goods and the GW2 trading post fails at it, because the tax prevents market clearing.

Since you are opposed to the fees on the Trading Post, please answer the following question.

What system would you suggest that ArenaNet uses that would remove an equal amount of gold from the economy?

I see a lot of complaints about the fees, but never any solutions that would work as well as the current system.

FirstBlood.7359:

John Smith.4610:

If you study economics you should have no trouble sitting down and thinking about the problem and coming up with an answer.

Just because the economy is virtual, doesn’t mean it isn’t subject to market failures or other economic constraints. In the case of the answer to this question, virtual economies are much MORE subject to this pressure than regular economies.

I strongly disagree. In the real economy taxes are needed, in a virtual they are not. Taxation exists mainly for two reasons: First, to finance public goods such as the basic education system that cannot provided by the market. Second, to internalize externalities such as in the case of tax on fuel to reduce its consumption. None of these market failures are existent in the GuildWars2 economy.
The selling tax is terrible, because coupled with uncertainty it makes market clearance very difficult. Just look at all those items that are listed, but will never get sold. One might even say that inefficiency is a goal or at least a wanted side effect of the selling tax. Lowering the player’s progress to achieve his goals by intentionally preventing market clearance.
Market failures of virtual economies aren’t the best justifications for the tax. In reality efficiency is of great importance, in GuildWars2 ANet wants us to keep playing by artificially limiting efficiency of markets.

Listing Fees and Selling Fees exist for one reason and one reason only….they’re gold sinks. They’re not taxes…they’re fees. Fees established for doing business using the BLTC.

These fees and gold sinks are in place to help combat inflation in the game…..along with repair fees, WP usage fees, etc.

Without these fees, inflation would have to be combatted in another way. The reason inflation exists is because as people play, the game drops loot for them. Most of this loot has a value in gold (some doesn’t, but that’s beside the point). If loot were to drop at its current rate without gold sinks in place, prices would continue to rise indefinitely until they all reach the same maximum. Not an equilibrium point….a maximum point…..the greatest amount someone can sell something for, which I believe is currently 9999g99s99c.

So, without the gold sinks, the only way to combat inflation is to remove loot from the game by reducing its drop rate. How do you think that would go over?

The listing and selling fees on the Trading Post are necessary evils. I may be wrong, but I believe these are the largest gold sinks in the game based on the sheer volume of trades that happen on a daily basis. I believe they FAR outweigh all of the other gold sinks combined.

I also believe in ArenaNet. I think they’ve done a good job of balancing the amount of loot and the number of gold sinks to keep inflation from running rampant. Prices WILL rise over time….but that’s only because people will begin to gain more wealth just by playing the game. If they didn’t, and their current wealth stayed stagnant, many players would quit playing the game.

Yes….some people get rich by playing the TP….other don’t…..but everyone should be able to increase their personal wealth slowly over time…..as long as they’re not spending their money frivolously.

There’s an active post on the front page that’s been answered by a dev. Please attempt to search the forums for an answer to your question before posting a new thread.

I can understand that the search on this forum isn’t great, but the answer you seek is on the front page of the BLTC forum….about 10 threads below this one.

Here’s the link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Please-change-Buy-Orders-to-forbid-pricing-lower-than-NPC-price/page/1

Why not make the user’s account the collateral. Loans would be offered by Anet and the amount would based on how many play hours your account has.

The higher the hours, the higher the loan you can take.

The lower the hours, the lower the loan you can take.

If the loan is not paid back in the agreed upon time, your account is locked out completely accept for access to 2 sections of the BLTC. It would give you the ability to purchase Gems for real money, then convert those Gems to gold to pay back whatever remaining balance you have on the loan.

If someone is willing to put their account at risk for a loan, let them…..but they need to understand that the more they take out, the harder it’s going to be to pay it back.

If someone defaults on their mortgage the bank takes their house. Same with a car loan, etc.

Your account is the collateral.

penatbater.4710:

So…. what happens if you don’t pay up? The game deletes your character? o.o

It could completely lock out your account, but allow you access to a single section of the BLTC….The Gem Store….and only a portion of that.

Basically….it locks your account so that you can buy gems to convert to gold to repay the loan…..but that’s ALL you can do.

The loan amount could be based on the number of hours you’ve played characters across your account. That way, people will be MUCH less likely to just buy a new account, take out a loan, and never plan to pay it back.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

He didn’t know he was going to spend 1000g trying before he actually did. And that’s a fact.

Well yes. That’s obvious, it’s the nature of gambling. I’m confused as to why you bring it up and what you’re trying to refute though. I don’t remember saying otherwise. Neither to I believe any posters in here have said otherwise.

I’m also confused as to how this relates to my previous posts. How does this fact change in any way, shape, or form the fact that he could have, with 100% certainty, bought a precursor in the BLT with that money?

This is a “Hindsight is 20/20” argument. It’s a perfectly valid point though. With the ~1000g he spent on the rares, he COULD have purchased the precursor that he wanted outright….but he didn’t.

Personally….with all of the threads, comments, etc. about how HORRIBLE it is to try and get a precursor out of the Mystic Forge….why would anyone try it?

The reason the OP tried it is because he felt the gamble was worth it. Turns out…it wasn’t and now he’s upset. Boo hoo. He’s not going to get any sympathy from me though. He knew the risks, he chose to gamble anyway.

At what point do you stop putting your debit card into the ATM to get more money so you can put it in a slot machine? Sounds to me like the OP didn’t stop soon enough. Boo hoo.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

As someone who frequents Vegas, I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

The Mystic Forge is like Megabucks. I keep throwing Franklins at the machine, and praying that the icons line up. That feeling when two icons line up, and the third one stops half way down…

Now there’s an idea… What if Z-man gave us a spinning wheel of all the stuff he could give us before he sticks us with junk? And if someone does get a really rare item out of the forge, maybe some fireworks would be in order

Dad always made me drop a buck in the Wheel of Fortune machines when I went to Vegas for trade shows. Z-man could learn a lot from those casinos when it comes to emptying your wallet and still have you walk away smiling.

OMG!!!! That would be SO awesome.

You put 4 items in, then pull the lever…….

The 3 wheels display like this….

Wheel #1: Item Type (Armor Type, weapon type, dye, crafting material, etc.)
Wheel #2: Item Level (0-80)
Wheel #3: Item Rarity (Basic, Fine, Masterwork, Rare, Exotic)

Then the box pops up with what you actually got like it does now.

People would be addicted to playing the MF. It’s basically a slot machine….make it act like one, lol.

Serum.4067:

Today marks my 1000th attempt at Dusk or Dawn (yes I kept track). That’s 4000 rares and still not one precursor. I’d like to give a Big Bird to the Mystic toilet and the devs that coded it. That is all.

A little more information is required about the 4,000 Rares you dumped into the Mystic Forge before I can personally determine whether it’s just bad luck, or if you’re doing it wrong. Can you please answer the following questions?

Since you were going for Dusk / Dawn:
Did you put 4,000 Rare Greatswords into the Mystic Forge?
Were they all level 76 to 80?

I ask these questions because if you didn’t put a Greatsword in, you may not get one out. A single greatsword in a group of 4 doesn’t mean you’ll get a Greatsword out….you could get something completely random. If the Rares you put in were below lvl 76, your chances of getting a precursor are dramatically reduced. You could have gotten a higher level rare, or possibly an Exotic, but the likelihood of a precursor would have been slim. Basically, if you put 4,000 random rares below level 76 into the MF, the possibility to get a precursor is SO small that I would be MORE surprised if you DID get one.

I see it as a check also.

When selling items, you’re required to have the money to cover the listing fee on your character. If, for some reason, you made a mistake when posting an item for sale for FAR more than you wanted to and you don’t have enough money on your character to cover the listing fee, you can’t post the item for sale.

I trade quite often and to ensure I don’t make a mistake, I rarely have more gold than I need on my character to cover the listing fees. There are times when I don’t have enough and need to make a trip to the bank, but I’d rather do that than have the system automatically pull the gold from my bank and potentially wipe me out…..with no way of getting that money back.

Most times I place my orders right from the bank, so I don’t have to worry too much about it.

I understand your request, but I feel that even MORE people would be making mistakes when buying and selling. I like it the way it is. It’s not perfectly convenient, but it’s not horribly inconvenient either.