Guild Wars 2

Hmm. How much Protection might we expect this to hand out? On average, obviously, since it’s random. I’m thinking if you get one Protection and one Regen to Membrane off of on a single veil, that would be about 9 secondsish?

I look at Cry of Frustration and long for it to come join the fun. Dang you 0/0/30/30/0! I feel like a shared out Retaliation plus a six stack of confusion would put someone in a bad mood. Without the power/c-dam to back it up, I guess it wouldn’t do that much, but that doesn’t seem to stop guardian bunkers from loading up on it like it’s the last of the Twinkies.

My personal experiences with iDisenchanter have been shaky. I’d be more comfortable with the on-demand removal of Mantra of Resolve, even if it is less overall removal. He doesn’t really seem to think about what he throws his bolts at. There’s also the torch route, since that would support PU, but that would demand a 20 point investment in Domination to make work.

Yeah, don’t listen to the patch whining. Every tooltip touch up and cooldown tweak is the end of the world as we know it on every board. I like to hang out in the mesmer board because these folks seem a bit more level headed and friendly in that regard, but no board is immune.

You’re in for a learning curve for both of those professions. Both gave me something of an “ah ha” movement when I realized I was completely misinterpreting their potential. Mesmer’s probably took me a bit longer to click, but it was the more satisfying realization. Kind of like that feeling when you make sense of algebra, rather than just going through the motions.

Both are fairly versatile professions in their own way, and I don’t think you can go wrong with either. However, we’d be happy to welcome you here to the purple side of the force.

I guess I’d like it changed, but I never put a lot of thought into it.

Part of me coming to grips with how to play a mesmer was getting away from the mentality that people will confuse the difference between me and a clone. In a particularly clustered brawl with lots of participants, someone grasping for anything to hit may spend a few key seconds punching a clone. You might get one over on them when you decoy for a split second. But for the most part, you’ll never trick someone in a 1v1, because you’ll be the one not standing there auto-attacking like you’re still in the starting zone with your first character. If someone attacks a clone, they probably weren’t paying that much attention to you in the first place. Or possibly its a thief using Cloak and Dagger to stealth. But that’s a whole new problem for you to deal with.

If you’re making clones instead of phantasms, they’re also probably not long for this world. They’re often better thought of as ammunition than contributing members of society.

But I still would like them to get off-hands. Because I have two shiny crystal swords of doom, and by gum it, they should too!

hihey.1075:

Funniest thing is when you are doing a 1v1 and then suddenly you see another opponent popping in spamming Heartseeker. It is so good to kill those pathetic excuses for thieves in a 1v2.

Killing someone for spamming Heartseeker? I mean, yeah, it’s a prick move to send spam to a little kid, but I think death is a little harsh.

If you’re going to be pushing out phantasms, I don’t know that the lack of clone-spam is so much a Con as simply “not what this build does”. Deceptive Evasion is really good, but I hate to think of it being so mandatory as to leave a red mark in its absence. Likewise, the perma-vigor really just serves to buff DE. Also, I don’t like having DE on stealthy PvP mesmers, since dodging in stealth could give away your position.

I would have a hard time not taking Signet of Inspiration with a setup like this. I really like being able to share my Prismatic Understanding buffs. “Hey look guys, I are guardian! Aegis for e’eryone!”

Edit: Really, “as(space)so” = kitten? -_-

It should be noted too that the no off-hand dual skills are mostly just weaker versions of existing ones. Repeater (pistol) is a much weaker Unload. Twisting Fangs (dagger) is a vastly nerfed Death Blossom. Stab (sword) is… well, Stab is just bad.

Leveling with a Mesmer isn’t so much hard as it is a paradigm shift from every other profession. I do admit that it gets a lot easier once you’ve got access to your master traits. Mesmer builds are very trait dependent, but I think it’s the mindset that’s the hardest to conquer.

For me, it was an eye opener to watch the Comprehensive Mesmer Guide series by MrPrometheus0110 on YouTube. It’s kind of old now, and many aren’t going to agree with the way he likes to build a character, but it did me wonders just to see the kinds of things a mesmer player thinks about and emphasizes. I realized that I was greatly under-utilizing my clones, shatters and phantasms. It got me thinking differently about my weapons and character mechanics. I was about level 20 then, and from that point on, leveling got a lot easier.

Torment doesn’t tick for more when the target moves, it ticks twice.

As a full time thief, part time mesmer, I think Mass Invisibility could use a hefty boost. Shadow Refuge stacks way more stealth, heals, has ground targeting, has 30 seconds less CD (+traitable for -20% more) and casts waaaaaaay faster.

Thieves are the kings of stealth, and I’m fine with that. But that’s not really reason to make the ability suck in comparison. It should be different, not a weaker imitation. Leave the stealth at 5 seconds, but have it do something else. Have it give allies boons, cure conditions, apply distortion/blur upon reappearing, replace allies with clones, or anything else that says to the world “I rolled mesmer, not a imitation thief”.

Edit: Yay, got my first kitten today! Fixifix…

Before official launch, there was a survey to see what characters people wanted to play. Might’ve been on Guru. Don’t remember. Anyways, the least common response was female charr mesmer.

So, that!

Bud.5617:

Not sure what venom is useful for.

Cooldown is very long and they don’t even last 1/100th of that. A few applications and the venom buff is gone.

At the same time conditions are so easily removed. There being only 3 slots I can’t see why anyone would bring them in exchange for so many things much more useful.

I know I enjoy waiting 45 seconds for 3 seconds of chill. Sure, axe rangers get the same thing on a 10 second cooldown, and get 10 seconds of weakness with it for free, but they’ll never have the appreciation for it that comes with anticipation and waiting. In that respect, thief venoms are like Christmas morning!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

For the 0/0/20/20/30, I’d actually trait the Scepter instead of the focus. The +200 Condition Damage rocks (especially if you grab Signet of Domination for another +180) and a traited Scepter can apply Torment almost constantly

I’ve run a 0/20/20/0/30 build focused on keeping the enemy suppressed (Lockdown Maestro in my guide) that’s been a lot of fun. People have been using it in PvE (which sort of surprised me, I expected it more for WvW) and I can definitely vouch that Deceptive Evasion + Imbued Diversion = “Bwahahaha!”

Whoops, that post slipped by me.

I sided with the focus to lower the cooldown on Temporal Curtain, so I could pop Into the Void more often. I’ve been gradually weening my characters off of condition damage, and the mesmer was one of the first to get that treatment. I tend to jostle between sword and scepter anyways, depending on how I’m feeling. Not sure what your gear should be; when in doubt just P/V/T.

Deceptive Evasion isn’t off the table. (I don’t think it ever can be.) The first time I tried it with a shatter-esque build in the mists, the unbriddled hurt I put on Utahein and Svanir about brought tears to my eyes. I was unaware they could be such chumps. If I went that route, it would be, without hint of doubt, 0/20/20/0/30. I gots to, gots to, have mah Chaos. I’d might dual swords on that build. Cuz, swords. (Edit: Wait, no… both pistol and focus can interrupt better… blast. But “cuz, swords” is such compelling logic…)

dragonkain.3984:

And yeah, i don’t try to be nice to people on the internet, there’s just no point in it.

This is very useful information to know and will help me to better choose the topics I read and reply to in the future. Thank you.

Lots of love here for the Zenith staff. I kind of have to agree. I was trolling around with my thief when it gave me the choice of Zenith weapon. I looked at them and was disappointed. I thought, “what am I supposed to do with this crystally nonsen—omgmymesmer!” I cracked out the shattered dragon wings I was sitting on and she’s never looked sexier.

Berengar.6951:

Which activates first, HiS cleansing damaging conditions or the condition cleanse on stealth?

That’s a good question. Some of the pirates in Lornar’s Pass (and probably other areas) apply both torment and poison. That might be a good place to test it.

skcamow.3527:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@Clockwork – Dat backdash! And its interesting to see Imbued Diversion as your number one. If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of build do you run?

I’ve been playing around a lot with it. It’s my current mesmer obsession, though I’ll admit, it’s really hard to work around and I haven’t narrowed in on the build I want. I tend towards a heavy Chaos investment, because I can get Bountiful Interruption, which can proc huge with ID. Add Signet of Inspiration, stir vigorously.

I’m flirting with 10/0/30/0/30 and 0/0/20/20/30 sort of spreads, but I’ve not yet sunk my teeth into exactly what I want yet. I just know that pressing ID’s F3 has lead to some of my most jaw dropping moments, and it’s a feeling I’d like to continue pursing, even if only as a fun time spec.

Nice, 10/0/30/0/30 is fun, fun to play. I’ve been running Imbued Diversion with Chaotic Interruption in the following build – jaw dropping moments galore :-)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-ChillRuption

Those two GM traits could easily have made my list, but there are just too many others.

Aye, I like ChillRuption a lot. Only on the mesmer board could something that awesome exist. It’d be laughed off at face value anywhere else, before they could know such joy.

Chaotic Interruption sort of dangled in the nebulous area of honorable mention for my list. On one hand, I really like it. On the other, I can’t take it at the same time as both Bountiful Interruption and Chaotic Dampening. It’s a cruel world we live in where I have to make such choices. Since I already had two interrupt based traits, I decided to let it fall off in the interest of list diversity.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@Clockwork – Dat backdash! And its interesting to see Imbued Diversion as your number one. If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of build do you run?

I’ve been playing around a lot with it. It’s my current mesmer obsession, though I’ll admit, it’s really hard to work around and I haven’t narrowed in on the build I want. I tend towards a heavy Chaos investment, because I can get Bountiful Interruption, which can proc huge with ID. Add Signet of Inspiration, stir vigorously.

I’m flirting with 10/0/30/0/30 and 0/0/20/20/30 sort of spreads, but I’ve not yet sunk my teeth into exactly what I want yet. I just know that pressing ID’s F3 has lead to some of my most jaw dropping moments, and it’s a feeling I’d like to continue pursing, even if only as a fun time spec.

Travlane.5948:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Travlane.5948:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

panicbutton.1053:

Side question!!

I’m playing around with p/d and am maximizing the amount of times I can go stealth so I can bleed them as much/often as possible. I trait for steal to stealth me… and I’m having some problems.

In the middle of combat, most of the time when I steal -> stealth, I get revealed almost instantly. Same goes for blinding powder. Are our stealth mechanics funky or is there something I’m not aware of? o.O I don’t chain the stealth one after another -- I realize there is some kind of internal counter prevention on stealth.

That’s why I dropped Hidden Thief when I was playing around with a stealth spec. It would’ve been nice, since my thief is a Steal-machine. I also have problems with the stolen Gunk bundle. I typically throw it, CnD, then try to stack 5 confusion with Sneak Attack. 75% of the time, it works. The rest of the time, it seems the Gunk pulse is treated as an attack and breaks my stealth before I can fire.

The only real use I found for Hidden Thief was to combine it with Shadow Protector and Mug to turn Steal into a small heal + regen. But the Shadow Arts tree has too many good traits for me to dedicate it to just that one combo.

steal into an instant backstab ….thats what this is best for. long reach too if u can fit it in. but panic is talkin about a totally different problem than what you are addressing.

I’m talking about stealth breaking immediately after I enter it. So is he. I’m not sure how that is different.

I only mentioned Shadow Protector as working with Hidden Thief, because it applies Regeneration the moment you enter stealth, and so it is not hindered by this problem.

if the gunk hits the ground first then ur good. or if u can hit sneak attack before it lands on them.

I always give the gunk a second to get in place. But, it pulses damage every second, much like caltrops. It’s possible that’s not what’s breaking my stealth, but then much like the matter with Hidden Thief, I don’t know what is.

Travlane.5948:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

panicbutton.1053:

Side question!!

I’m playing around with p/d and am maximizing the amount of times I can go stealth so I can bleed them as much/often as possible. I trait for steal to stealth me… and I’m having some problems.

In the middle of combat, most of the time when I steal -> stealth, I get revealed almost instantly. Same goes for blinding powder. Are our stealth mechanics funky or is there something I’m not aware of? o.O I don’t chain the stealth one after another -- I realize there is some kind of internal counter prevention on stealth.

That’s why I dropped Hidden Thief when I was playing around with a stealth spec. It would’ve been nice, since my thief is a Steal-machine. I also have problems with the stolen Gunk bundle. I typically throw it, CnD, then try to stack 5 confusion with Sneak Attack. 75% of the time, it works. The rest of the time, it seems the Gunk pulse is treated as an attack and breaks my stealth before I can fire.

The only real use I found for Hidden Thief was to combine it with Shadow Protector and Mug to turn Steal into a small heal + regen. But the Shadow Arts tree has too many good traits for me to dedicate it to just that one combo.

steal into an instant backstab ….thats what this is best for. long reach too if u can fit it in. but panic is talkin about a totally different problem than what you are addressing.

I’m talking about stealth breaking immediately after I enter it. So is he. I’m not sure how that is different.

I only mentioned Shadow Protector as working with Hidden Thief, because it applies Regeneration the moment you enter stealth, and so it is not hindered by this problem.

5) Chaotic Dampening – This is more a nod to my favorite weapon than it is to the trait. I love the staff, and 20% more of it is a welcomed addition. The fact that it stacks with Illusionists Celerity means “hella backdash yo”.

4) Debilitating Dissipation – While my staff love sees less use from DD than when I swap to my sword or scepter, it deserves my praise. Clones die. Clones die kind of a lot. They get stabbed, burned, maimed, shot, trampled, overwritten and forgotten. These clones will never know their true potential. DD ensures they go out with a pop rather than a wimper. It’s like a mini contingient shatter. There are others like it, and when taken en masse, the results are highly amusing, but DD is my favorite.

3) Bountiful Interruption – I like interrupt builds. They’re not amazing or meta or anything, but I played an interrupt mesmer in Gw1 and I kind of miss it just a little. But for how infrequently interrupts actually occur, you can’t afford to be dainty with your interrupt traits. Since its update, BI is no longer dainty, with a sizable might stack on top of its random boons. Combine with Domination’s rainfall of vulnerability on daze and interrupt and the spike potential is palpable. But don’t be greedy. Share the fun with your friends with Signet of Inspiration!

2) Prismatic Understanding – Stealth specs are fun, but PU really makes them glow. It’s the kind of trait I love in a capstone. That is to say that a build doesn’t completely fall apart in its absense, but gains so much by having it. It augments the already improved survivability of a stealth ability and tosses some love at the formerly disowned torch.

1) Imbued Diversion – Did I mention I liked interrupt builds? Illusionary Persona gets a lot of love, and deservedly so, but I love ID. On an interrupt-bolstering build, it turns Diversion into boon and condition nuke the likes of which would make Chaos Storm blush. When your success comes down to a die roll, your best bet is to roll a crap ton of dice.

panicbutton.1053:

Side question!!

I’m playing around with p/d and am maximizing the amount of times I can go stealth so I can bleed them as much/often as possible. I trait for steal to stealth me… and I’m having some problems.

In the middle of combat, most of the time when I steal -> stealth, I get revealed almost instantly. Same goes for blinding powder. Are our stealth mechanics funky or is there something I’m not aware of? o.O I don’t chain the stealth one after another -- I realize there is some kind of internal counter prevention on stealth.

That’s why I dropped Hidden Thief when I was playing around with a stealth spec. It would’ve been nice, since my thief is a Steal-machine. I also have problems with the stolen Gunk bundle. I typically throw it, CnD, then try to stack 5 confusion with Sneak Attack. 75% of the time, it works. The rest of the time, it seems the Gunk pulse is treated as an attack and breaks my stealth before I can fire.

The only real use I found for Hidden Thief was to combine it with Shadow Protector and Mug to turn Steal into a small heal + regen. But the Shadow Arts tree has too many good traits for me to dedicate it to just that one combo.

It would seem, through various searches around here and Guru, that Sigil of Paralyzation is a wonky beast. I was not aware it was such a mess, but there are claims of it working on some dazes, not on some stuns, and the duration increases being rounded, not rounded, and otherwise unpredictable from ability to ability. It would seem control effects follow rules very different from conditions.

So, I take back my earlier comments and simply shrug my shoulders.

Dimittri.3245:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Tooltips round to 1/4 seconds, but they’re not reflective of actual results. Everything I’ve read and seen points to all things with durations accurately lasting for their expected partial amounts. The only times where whole seconds matter are conditions and boons that tick, like bleeds and regeneration. Because these tick once a second, half a second is not useful. They last that extra half second, but do nothing during it.

Daze is a control effect and not a condition, so it will only be affected by duration increases that specifically improve dazes. For a thief, that is namely the Superior Runes of the Mesmer.

So Superior Sigil of Paralyzation won’t work for daze?

I have not personally tested it, but no, it shouldn’t work. Stun and daze are different control effects. For example, that would improve the stun on Pistol Whip, though that’s a 1/2 second stun, and so that would add 0.075 seconds to its stun.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

(Please don’t nerf Restorative Illusions ANet)

Oh dear god, is the wiki’s math right on that?!

…

In the immortal words of Sergent Hans Schultz, “I see nothing—NOTHING!”

They’re all pretty popular right now. The minor change to Shadow Shot drew in folks to P/D like flies.

Going deep into Shadow Arts is pretty common, due to the amount of stealth you’ll already be doing trying to get off the pistol’s Sneak Attack. Beyond that, P/D doesn’t need a lot of traits to do its job. I’m currently 15/0/10/15/30 and happy with it, though it’s not the most common.

Carrion is perfect. No need to deviate from that. Condition damage and vitality make for happy p/d thief.

The amazing story is I pushed #3. I don’t know if my thief has done that since level 20. I pushed it, I liked it, and would go on to push it a few more times.

I think the reaction to Shadow Strike, on both sides, is a little overblown. It was pretty bad. Little to no damage and a glitchy backdash. Now, it has a condition, and we use those. I’ll sometimes use it in place of a back dodge. If I’m lucky in pvp, someone will mistake it for a CnD and blow a dodge on it. Rarely, I’ll Steal in and SS out, if I think they’ll blow a stun break on my Steal’s daze. I use it some in pve. Going in and out of melee can really wreck havoc on the AI, and sometimes lock them down better than any stun.

Basically, it’s just another tool in the toolbox, and I’m happy there are no dead squares on my bar now.

My thief steals things. Kind of a lot. Things the person/creature/object didn’t even know they possessed. Multiple times per minute. She’s got kleptomania of a caliber yet undocumented by our modern legal system. Clearly, the term “thief” can barely contain her Batman villain like, burglarizing tenancies. A new title is necessary to express this unbridled degree of pilfering and plundering:

Larcenus Prime

Oh yeah, I forgot about Varconi’s. Yeah, I’ll second that. There’s also some interesting perspectives in that thread. Like, not taking Deceptive Evasion, because dodging in stealth gives away your position. It’s a build mainly for holding up in 1vX WvW scenarios (the stealth loses some usefulness in spvp where bunkers have to hold points), but I’m a fan.

>_< Yes, it’s clearly thief neglect that we were one of the first to get this new condition, and are the only ones that have it twice. ArenaNet should wear platemail gauntlets when feeding us, because we don’t just bite the hand, we go for the artery.

It’s likely an oversight, and I’m sure far from the only one. Either HiS or Withdraw (since it could be viewed as a mobility condition) should probably remove it. As a mobile class, we’ll probably get an extra counter at some point. Pointing it out is a good first step towards that. Until then, we thankfully have Shadow’s Embrace.

I feel your pain. That clone-on-dodge is really hard to give up. For a condition build, Sharper Images is also kind of hard to skip over.

I like 20 in Domination, even without the torch. The added vulnerability on Diversion stacks up reasonably well (especially with 30 illusion and Imbued Diversion, holy crap). I’m not really a vulnerability fan, but it does stack enough to almost matter here. The condition duration is nice, but not worth going after all by itself. The extra power is also helpful for a build that won’t be seeing a lot of it otherwise. The torch trait offers more frequent Prestige, but that’s just one condition (burning) and maybe some confusion if you get Blinding Befuddlement.

So, on the whole, I say that “nice” describes dipping into the Domination tree with a condition build. Nothing there is absolutely vital, but it offers a lot of useful little things. I would equate it to a condition build’s appetizer sampler platter. It isn’t your main meal but costs about as much as one. You certainly don’t need it, but you’ll enjoy the variety of things you get.

Shadow Strike is neither amazing nor worthless. It gives you a second option, and does something almost as good as Sneak Attack. Since people tend not to hold still in pvp, two stacks of torment are about as good as 3 stacks of bleed. You were going to put 5 on them after CnD, so how much did you really lose? It’s a separate stack to be cleansed and can be used while Revealed.

Also, if the only thing you do in melee as a P/D is CnD>SA, then you’re extremely predictable to the point of monotony. The moment you’re in melee range, any half-brained opponent familiar with your spec (and they’re learning it fast with its new-found popularity) will be ready to evade your clearly telegraphed intent and happily relieve you of your 6 initiative.

And while it’s up for discussion, is gap control really an issue for some thieves? I’ve played with a base of 15 Acrobatics and 30 Trickery for most of my thiefy existence, so I guess I’m spoiled, but I’ve been running with the mentality that we own the gap and just rent it out on Sundays.

Tooltips round to 1/4 seconds, but they’re not reflective of actual results. Everything I’ve read and seen points to all things with durations accurately lasting for their expected partial amounts. The only times where whole seconds matter are conditions and boons that tick, like bleeds and regeneration. Because these tick once a second, half a second is not useful. They last that extra half second, but do nothing during it.

Daze is a control effect and not a condition, so it will only be affected by duration increases that specifically improve dazes. For a thief, that is namely the Superior Runes of the Mesmer.

darthsmall.8246:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

The shortbow is popular as a second weapon set. The reason being is that even with a full-on damage build, it can’t hit the kind of damage numbers that other weapon sets can. What it does have is a great deal of utility.

For example, drop a choking gas cloud on a group of enemies, then detonate that cloud with a Cluster Bomb. The enemies will all be effected by Weakness (making them deal 50% less damage 50% of the time) and Poison (slight damage over time and 33% less healing) for a few seconds. The cluster bomb can also be tossed into other player’s fields for a wide variety of useful effects, like stacking Might from fire fields, and is the only ability in the game that can do this without a cooldown.

Unfortunately, the lower damage is a deal breaker for most people, given how important it is in most harder content and structured pvp.

I don’t mind sacrificing damage for utility. Are there any builds with shortbow as primary weapon for PvE because I really like the shortbow and want to level with it.

There really isn’t much in the thief traits that caters to the shortbow. There is Power Shots, which is quite possibly the worst damage trait you can take. It only offers +5% damage, gives no other bonuses (other than harpoon gun damage), just doesn’t scale well with the shortbow’s already low damage, and is nested 20 deep in the Shadow Arts tree, which is all about stealth, which the shortbow doesn’t directly offer (unless you take Smoke Screen and detonate it with Cluster Bomb).

Leveling, at least to 40 or 60, the various builds you find around these boards won’t do you a whole lot of good. A lot of them rely on various synergies that just won’t be available to you before then, so I wouldn’t start sweating builds during your leveling phase. If you see some appealing traits, try them and see how they work for you. Respecs are extremely cheap. Early on, the first trait line (the one with Power) is often nice, simply because it offers more bonus damage than you’ll be getting from your gear at those levels.

Try all of the utilities as you go. Because you won’t be building around the bow, what types of utilities you like will probably dictate the kind of build you enjoy. Like, venom builds are rather popular. Some people hate venoms, and so offering them a venom build would be pointless. With that information in mind, builds should be much easier to zone in on.

The shortbow is popular as a second weapon set. The reason being is that even with a full-on damage build, it can’t hit the kind of damage numbers that other weapon sets can. What it does have is a great deal of utility.

For example, drop a choking gas cloud on a group of enemies, then detonate that cloud with a Cluster Bomb. The enemies will all be effected by Weakness (making them deal 50% less damage 50% of the time) and Poison (slight damage over time and 33% less healing) for a few seconds. The cluster bomb can also be tossed into other player’s fields for a wide variety of useful effects, like stacking Might from fire fields, and is the only ability in the game that can do this without a cooldown.

Unfortunately, the lower damage is a deal breaker for most people, given how important it is in most harder content and structured pvp.

Viking Jorun.5413:

You’re starting to sound like the warrior subforum, complaining about how ANet hates them.

‘Tis true. I find it quite hilarious that every profession gets these sort of pity party type threads (it admittedly didn’t start that way, but devolved rather quickly) accusing the devs of hating them.

Developers do not hate professions. Why would you spend years designing, crafting and molding something from the depths of your creative soul, only to hate it? Software development is just not a world filled with hate. It is filled with excessive overtime, gallons of caffeine and customers that will always be passionately displeased.

Hate filled? No. Soul crushing? Yeah.

“OP classes like necro, guardian, engi, ranger.”

Which makes warriors, mesmers and elementalists the fair and balanced classes?

I suspect Berserker is going to get mentioned as well. It makes things fall down.

I’d try to get Vitality where you can. Thieves have painfully low health. Valkyrie is appealing in that regard, though you’ll want more precision as well, to make that crit damage matter.

Here’s a fast and loose possible spec I tossed together. I won’t call it perfect, but it’s a possible jumping off point for some of the more experienced bursty-thieves to critique.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYFmA2eAAAAwpAAA6UAAAA-jAyA4LBRKDAJCM9VEN2CXR0Y11YK3kqfFkBA-e

Levitas.1953:

Im not good with tests and I cant say that it works as other conditions. But i think if you keep hearing people talk about it maybe you can really cover bleed.
Do you mind to link the thread? Even if its true, its still useful for other conditions.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Bleed-always-cleansed-first/first#post2373893

I think most people simply assume the wiki is right on this and spread it as gospel. A conclusion was never reached in that thread, because no one else tested it after, but it establishes that there is at least an exception to the rule (in that case, condition-to-boon effects) and it should actually be tested proper, rather than being accepted as a truth on pure faith.

Levitas.1953:

Vulnerability covers bleed stacks, burning, torment and confusion. With staff clones (again with the vuln!) and normal gameplay you can stack 20 vulnerability and even if its not that great for your damage, it is for your allies.
Remember that the effect is aoe.
Its also the best way we have to apply weakness and the stacks of bleed adds to WoC and sharper images stacks. This trait shines with DE and for condition builds, its golden.

I keep hearing people talk about covering bleeds, but it doesn’t seem to work that way. Some tests done over in a thief forum somewhere showed bleeds being removed first. Even if those tests were wrong, for whatever reason, bleeds are almost always the most recent condition thanks to frequent reapplications.

Zacchary.6183:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

That’s hilarious, because it’s probably our most predictable set. Well, other than possibly P/P (zomgthatthiefhastwogunsRETALIATION!). Still, I love it for being an almost melee-ranged set. All the fun of the melee dance, with none of the pain that comes with having to stand there for more than a single attack. It’s my favorite range on any profession I play.

If you use Shadow Refuge and then use Dagger Storm before the refuge goes away, it makes leeching bolts that heal 170. I havn’t tested to see if it is exactly like spin2win though.

I find myself really reluctant to use Dagger Storm. In both PvE and PvP, it seems to draw a lot of attention my way and going 8 seconds without dodging gives me a mild panic attack. The exception is when wandering with my ranger friend. We’ll spin on that Healing Spring for days.

That’s hilarious, because it’s probably our most predictable set. Well, other than possibly P/P (zomgthatthiefhastwogunsRETALIATION!). Still, I love it for being an almost melee-ranged set. All the fun of the melee dance, with none of the pain that comes with having to stand there for more than a single attack. It’s my favorite range on any profession I play.

I like the traits in that if my clones are at least near something, they never go to waste. They’re essentially a contingent mini-shatter for clones that never got to realize their full potential. Using Phase Retreat and Deceptive Evasion defensively will sometimes give me more clones than I had planned, but that doesn’t mean they just get to go on break. No slacker clones in my army!

I main a thief and off-main mesmer, and yet I do feel I spend more time here. It is a slightly more pleasant area of discussion.

Now, I’ve never gotten a ranger over the 20 hump, so I can’t compare. But, if rangers plus their pet are really doing less damage than a thief shortbow… I’m grievously sorry for your loss. We generally only use that thing for spam-blasting combo fields, misc. utility, and the occasional game of tag you might call wvw zerg chasing

While I do think that it’s silly to think a ranger should specialize at ranged, I do think that weapons should be effective at their optimal ranges. In the mesmer’s case, the staff seems to be the best example. It is a 1200 weapon, but many find it more effective much closer to the fray. My thief is pistol/dagger, and loses a lot of potential when I wander too far from melee. The ranger shortbow is in a similar boat in that it says 900 on the tin, but that frontal “dead-zone” cone gets a lot easier to maneuver out of the closer you get to the target and poison volley hits much harder at point-blank.

The longbow would be easiest to compare to the mesmer greatsword, since their auto-attacks use identical mechanics. If it’s not performing up to par at 1200, I can imagine the discouragement. I don’t hear a lot of complaints about the mesmer greatsword. It seems to perform admirably and has gathered a sizable following. Is the ranger longbow all that behind the mesmer greatsword, or is it just a matter of a more disgruntled ranger community in general?

As for thieves, we don’t get a 1200 range option at all, other than Steal. So, any complaints about thief ranged damage does need to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for warriors… well, that’s just warriors…

Levitas.1953:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Phantasmal Warlock is very much a power phantasm, despite it getting bonus damage from conditions. Under normal grouping conditions, there will be enough conditions stacked on any reasonably tough enemy for a power-based Warlock to hit like a truck. His bonuses come from the number of types of conditions, not how high those conditions are stacked, and so a solo condition mesmer isn’t going to really exploit that potential.

That leaves Phantasmal Mage as the only, theoretically speaking, condition phantasm. We don’t like to talk about him in polite conversation.

In general, mesmers don’t have a “condition weapon”, and I feel this caries over to the phantasms as well. Some will claim that the scepter or the staff are, but any necromancer or thief will laugh at that. Mesmer conditions mostly come from traits and shatters, making anything that properly supports them a condition weapon or phantasm.

I believe Duelist and Berserker are probably the favorites in this regard, just for how often they hit, but I leave that discussion to more experienced fingers.

Actually, condition traits like sharper images and debilitating dissipation are on the same level of weapon skills like illusionary counter, confusing images, the prestige, wind of chaos, chaos storm. Cry of frustration is not that good since you lose staff clones damage and on death effect.
If necros and thieves laugh at staff and scepter im sorry for them.

I think I didn’t convey my meaning clearly. For a thief with P/D or a scepter necromancer, you’re a condition build upon picking up your weapon. You can fight it, but it’s either on uphill battle or a state of denial, depending on who you ask. A scepter necro will typically take his 30 points in Curses, stack on his Rabid gear that seems suspiciously tailored just for him and roll from there. A P/D thief will stack on his equally suspiciously convenient Carrion gear and build however he wants cuz it doesn’t matter so long as he brought his Caltrops and perma-stealth. There’s always going to be exceptions to the rules, but the stigma is potent.

Mesmer has no strictly condition weapon like this. Scepter and Staff play nice with conditions, but you can stack power on them and they perform admirably without doing anything special. Conversely the Greatsword, which has no damaging conditions, makes rather impressive use of Sharper Images due to its very rapid attacks, and can backup a condition build reasonably well. Mesmers gain a lot of weapon flexibility from their severe build dependency.

Capitan Mancino.7915:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

or you avoid condition damage and cry to ArenaNet to remove conditions from your weapon of choice

Which I didn’t. Suggesting the complete removal of conditions from staff. Implying that it’s my weapon of choice and asking for it to be tuned according to my tastes. Suggesting it be turned into a power/crit weapon (???). And especially crying. I might have filled a thread with loads of crap, opinions are opinions, but I don’t think I ever cried.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

but it’s still a problem, and not one that band-aiding the staff is going to address.

I most certainly agree. Yet I made a thread specifically about mesmer staff, not about game mechanics.

Seeing this is hardly being read – for real – please close it whoever can.

My apologies. I didn’t mean that quite as abrasively as it came out. “Cry to ArenaNet” was directed at the much larger outcry against just about any weapon that scales poorly due to the inclusion of damaging conditions. Thief pistols and daggers, mesmer staff, warrior sword, and so on. Players often find themselves either building around nothing but conditions or avoiding these abilities if they can. Neither is optimal, compared to simply stacking power/crit on non-condition attacks.

Your post addresses matters outside of that as well, which I wasn’t intending to address at all. In the case of the condition abilities, I’d just rather see the conditions on this and the many other weapons under scrutiny stay and the larger issue addressed instead.

Rinzler.8072:

Well, im trying to get out of the illusions tree and still have a build that shatters close to a 0/20/20/0/30 build.

Im not too worried about the utility lost on losing IP, as im going to pick up other utility elsewhere (20/20/30/0/0), such as the buffs on invisibility and wut not.

Utility aside, the main thing I feel you’re losing from dropping the Illusion is Illusionist’s Celerity and the shatter cooldown reduction. I personally feel that 20/20/30/0/0 is perfectly capable, and there’s even a few guides for it in the stickies. I wobble between 20/20/30/0/0 and 20/0/20/0/30. I’d say shattering without Illusion isn’t worse, it’s just different.

Phantasmal Warlock is very much a power phantasm, despite it getting bonus damage from conditions. Under normal grouping conditions, there will be enough conditions stacked on any reasonably tough enemy for a power-based Warlock to hit like a truck. His bonuses come from the number of types of conditions, not how high those conditions are stacked, and so a solo condition mesmer isn’t going to really exploit that potential.

That leaves Phantasmal Mage as the only, theoretically speaking, condition phantasm. We don’t like to talk about him in polite conversation.

In general, mesmers don’t have a “condition weapon”, and I feel this caries over to the phantasms as well. Some will claim that the scepter or the staff are, but any necromancer or thief will laugh at that. Mesmer conditions mostly come from traits and shatters, making anything that properly supports them a condition weapon or phantasm.

I believe Duelist and Berserker are probably the favorites in this regard, just for how often they hit, but I leave that discussion to more experienced fingers.

Rinzler.8072:

So lets do the maths, say your base mindwrack from a single clone is 1000.

IP, the damage will look something like

1000

1000

500

330
——————-
Total: 2830

With 20% bonus and the 9% dmg from the extra power. ~30% more dmg for easy of math

1300

750

~400
———————
total: ~2450 dmg

That look right? or can someone correct my maths

I’m not solid on this, but I don’t think the extra “clone” from IP hits with the full brunt of a single clone wrack. Unless the wiki isn’t up to date. If the wiki is up to date, then it’s 33% extra damage from a full IP wrack. Which is negligibly better than the +20% wrack.

So, it really does come down to how you intend to use it, and the utility you can get from and build into your other shatters.

Kryshade.6075:

Let me guess, you were in hotjoin and a thief stole your boons.

Must… resist urge to… make Skyrim reference…. SWEETROLLS!!!!

cough Sorry…

Is this really still a topic of discussion? I’ve been stealing boons with Bountiful Theft for ages, no one complained. Is it as spammable? No, but I do have it on near a 20 second cooldown, I don’t have to dedicate all of my initiative over to it, I can use whatever weapon I want, I share it with all of my friends and it’s not so predictable a chimp could see it coming.

But I guess I see why it’s a problem. I mean, what else is a S/D thief going to spam? Oh noes, look out for C&D > Tactical Strike!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Winds.3087:

On-demand invulnerability is never pointless.

You dont need IP for that.

Wut?

Well, technically, Blurred Inscriptions gives it, but that’d be a silly argument to make, since they’re not mutually exclusive.