Guild Wars 2

If two groups of trolls met each other in the wild and neither realized the other was trolling them, I think it would look a lot like this thread.

The Deadly Arts line mostly suffers from “needs to do something else-itus”. Most of the traits are lacking in interesting or significant functionality.

Kind of down the list:

• Back Fighting: Downed traits in general suffer from being very niche. While it’s true +50% damage could save your life, having another trait while you’re still up could’ve prevented you from being horizontal in the first place. Any additional functionality could make this more appealing. Maybe a knock negation on a cooldown? I don’t know. Just anything useful for when you’re not trying to hail the world’s shortest taxi.
• Corrosive Traps: There’s not much thieves can really do to flesh out traps. That’s a ranger thing. Vulnerability isn’t a very exciting condition, and does nothing to get you excited about taking traps for more than their core functionality. Functionally, it works, since our traps are mostly about setups to better things, it’s just not exciting.
• Mug: <3
• Venomous Strength: Venom builds usually go down DA. It’s represented well enough. Venoms kind of suffer from the reverse of traps in that they’re pretty horrible without traits, but that’s its own thing. Lucky for you, your venom hopscotch course is well lit and easy to follow.
• Potent Poison: By no means a bad trait, since poison is awesome, but of questionable usefulness. Most thief builds have either majority uptime available on poison or very little. Sometimes taken because there’s “nothing better”. Lotus Poison might’ve been more interesting folded into this, rather than used as a minor.
• Sundering Strikes: Our “on crit” condition is… yeah, vulnerability. -_-; Not very much of it either. Feels like it should’ve been a Critical Strikes minor trait.
• Improvisation: I think thieves are not big fans of RNG. This has enough going for it to earn its spot, but I doubt it’ll ever be popular. Because Steal related abilities are often called “bundles”, the added damage functionality is ambiguous and misleading.
• Quick Venoms: All aboard the venom bus! Here’s your cookie cutter trait #2.
• Dagger Training: Boooooooring. Since launch, a lot of weapon damage traits have seen some nice revisions. Bonus stats, interesting procs, range boosts and a variety of other effects to piggy-back off the damage increases and cooldown improvements. Raw numbers traits are dull and add nothing to the texture and flavor of a build.
• Combined Training: See above, but with just one button. Unload spam for the eff tee snoring double-yew.
• Panic Strike: Aww yeah, a grandmast… what? A root triggered around a condition I cannot control? I mean, I guess it makes sense. I don’t want someone running away while I’m making a rumpburger pie out of their bowels. I suppose it can sometimes prove useful, but it’s not going to change the way you play, which we kind of expect from GMs. Oh wait, silly me. If I put 30 in DA, I obviously came here for…
• Residual Venom: Here you go, venom monkey. Your dessert course. I hope you enjoyed your clearly charted course through the wilds of DA, because it’s a barren wasteland for the rest of us.

Edit: I didn’t touch on Trickery, cuz I likes me some Trickery. While arguments could be made against the raw power of its traits, most are at least interesting or play-shaping in some way or another. There’s some room for improvement, but I like the cut of its jib.

New Debuff:

Temporal Instability
Something something tachyons something space-time.
Cannot gain swiftness from Temporal Curtain.
Duration: 3 seconds.

Can has please?

Oh snap! The coolest community on the forums is becoming a… well, a community! I approve.

In-Game Mesmer: Kyra Darkwish
Role: Scholar
Home Planet: Ehmry Bay
Primary Victims: PvE
Time: Pacific US evenings

Mmm, I likey. I can’t speak from a D/D perspective. P/D would definitely love the extra condition. With S/D, I’ll just take whatever buff is on offer. It’s not useless right now, but it is underwhelming. I probably use it for tagging more than anything else.

Meyrink.6792:

TY. I use assassin’s signet active all the time actually. It is the one I use the most. With D/P I usually stack stealth from smoke screen and then I pop the signet for the huge damage buff on my next 5 attacks. Backstab, and then HS spam while evading. I should get rid of the precision-to-vitality trait for one of the signet buffs then?

Also, I will look at valkyrie gear thanks. But generally speaking, thieves should always run full zerks gear right? It seems like the consensus everywhere I look that nothing else is acceptable but 100% zerks in every situation for thieves.

The general consensus is straight berzerker’s, aye. Valkyrie is simply something you can weave into a few pieces to trade a little precision for a little health, if you find that you need the extra damage buffer. Defensive stats are only useful if you get hit. Offensive stats a) are always useful and b) ensure things die faster and have less of a chance to hurt you. Since stuff in dungeons hit hard, you really don’t want to get hit, even if you’re durable. But, we don’t all start out as dodge gods, and a little extra health during the learning phase can alleviate some of the growing pains..

For Assassin’s Signet, there are some threads on here doing the math on what builds benefit from clicking it and when. But without breaking out the thinking cap, it’s obviously better for burst than sustained damage.

The Signet of Power trait does have good synergy with it. 5 stacks of might is +175 Power, which almost completely makes up for losing the 180 from Assassin’s Signet, giving your 5 burst attacks more for their money. That’ll last for about 12 seconds with your boon duration. Assassin’s Signet will be down for 45 seconds (36 seconds if traited with Signet Use), cutting it down to only 33 seconds (24 seconds traited) that you’ll be without a Power buff.

For those off times when I spec down the Critical Strikes line, I like having both signet traits. But Side Strikes is a really good trait too. It’ll be up to you to decide what feels best to you.

Just my thoughts:

While PVT is the blanket “safe” gear for just about anyone, it’s not the first choice for a lot of thieves. Generally, Valkyrie (PVC) is the preferred training wheels gear for most direct damage thieves. Vitality winds up being a more useful defense than toughness, thanks to thief having such a low base health pool. There’s also the common belief (not sure how true it is) that lots of toughness will make you pull more agro. In harder hitting dungeons, a durable thief that’s getting hit is probably still a dead thief.

Signets are well and fine, though you’ll get the most out of them if you’re comfortable clicking them where appropriate, rather than just riding the passive train. The exception to this is possibly Assassin’s, though that’s a theorycrafting discussion all its own. With 30 in Critical Strikes, you’re also wide open to take Signets of Power and/or Signet Use, to make clicking them more worth your effort.

Whatever happened to diminishing returns on repeating the same event more than twice in a day? Didn’t that used to be a thing? Or at least a design goal? This is the kind of farming people were afraid of getting banned over about a year ago.

I’m S/D as of late. I can’t tell you how to win, but I can try to give a little insight into what S/D is.

Sword is by no means our strongest source of damage. Far from it. It’s got very little burst built into it. It doesn’t have things like backstab (though some may run dagger as an offset, and will switch to that after stealthing) or condition stacking. It has to take you down with raw, sustained damage. This is a boon and a curse. On one hand, they can’t just insta-gib you like a dagger thief can. On the other, there’s no “must avoid” attacks. They’re taking you down with attrition.

They WILL steal your boons. It’s not a matter of their boon stealing being cheap. It’s that S/D doesn’t have any great “spam to win” damage attacks. If you have boons, it’s the obvious tactic, and we’d still use it if it cost twice as much. A lot of burst Ele’s can stack up some serious might. For the love of god, don’t! Switch out of fire or something. Our boon steal could cost 12 initiative. It wouldn’t matter. A stack of 12+ Might would still be worth taking.

Larcenous Strike may, in theory, be the most damaging attack of the set on paper, but that says very little of real life use. Cloak and Dagger offers about the same damage. The cost is higher, but there’s no need to chain attacks into it and it offers all the fun of stealth. In addition to that, both of those “powerful” attacks aren’t that much better than our basic auto-attack chain. The set just doesn’t have a home-run burst button.

Infiltrator’s Strike is S/X’s primary teleport, and it’s dope. It’s a gap closer, escape, root and condition remover. It’s not a stun breaker. If I retreat while stunned, I’ll just be stunned somewhere else. Any sword user worth his salt will likely not engage you without having IS up. IS’s Shadow Return can only return to its original point. If you can camp that point, you’ll reduce their ability to escape with it. If you can’t, it’s still handy knowing where they are likely to end up.

That’s not all inclusive, but it’s a start.

Ooh, is this the thread where I imagine things ArenaNet might do wrong and get mad at them for it?

ArenaNet, I had a dream last night that you cheated on me with another player. You’re such a pig, I hate you!

TP Flipping. It’s basically PvP. Except there are no teams and you can attack people who didn’t even realize they were playing.

I don’t really believe it’s optimal, but I really like Trickery. It’s just fun. I run 10/0/10/20/30 S/D + SB.

My Shadow Comet of Doom.

Steal does damage, heals (Mug), poisons (Serpent’s Touch), grants aoe vigor, boon steals (Bountiful Theft) and dazes, all on a 21.5 second cooldown (Sleight of Hand). Ample dodging (vigor + Feline Grace compound very well) + caltrops (Uncatchable) . Power is the primary damage stat, since Mug can’t crit. That 300 condition damage doesn’t go to complete waste with poison and bleeds usually finding a mark.

I opted for 10 in SA because it’s a buffet of useful traits. I consider the wide variety of utility worth more than the 100 power and weaker traits I could get out of DA (I seriously hate venoms). YMMV.

The basic build framework is fairly weapon neutral, and I used to run it as a P/D condition build, where the condition damage saw much stronger use. It might be stronger in that configuration, with full on Carrion gear, but I just got sick of condition builds.

Boom, headband!

And I think it looks good on her. It has been something of a signature piece for her, and has brought her good luck since level 1.

Part of me wants to replace the pirate coat, so she doesn’t look like she’s level 40. Such is unbecoming of a mighty 80. But I’m enamoured with the romantic image of the humble thief, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, while keeping in touch with her lowly roots. There’s not exactly a lot of modest rags in the exotic tier.

Ultimately, what clicks with you is probably going to be more nuanced than what we can give here. Individual profession forums will be better at selling you on their preferred profession.

As a brief intro, some professions will sell themselves better early on than others.

Engineer, for example, sells itself very short in the first 20 levels. Utility skills are everything to an engineer, and early on, you simply don’t have them. There’s a huge difference in what the various skill types bring to the table, and you might not find a playstyle that syncs up for you until your 40s.

Mesmer is another profession that takes some getting used to. Early on, people generally underutilize their clones and phantasms or treat them like you would a pet. Finding a comfortable rhythm of illusion creation and destruction is at first unnatural, but ultimately vital to becoming proficient with the profession.

Then there are professions like the thief and elementalist that are just squishy as tissue paper at low levels. With the right investment, both can become extremely elusive and frustrating targets to take down, but you’d never know it going by the early game.

Ultimately, you’re going to have to invest some time in a character to know if it’s really the one for you. For many of us, that means we may have missed our true calling because pushing 8 characters past 40 wasn’t a realistic goal.

For me, I discovered late that I’m pretty solid with a mesmer. Better than I am with my thief. But my thief was my first love. Even though I’m not very good with her, I’ve invested a lot of time, gold and effort into her and will continue to call her my “main”.

I’m currently waiting for them to introduce pickup pauldrons. Pauldrons made of pickup trucks. 16 cylinders of testosterone fueled form and function. I’m still waiting for ArenaNet to email me back on that one.

Until then, I’ve been eyeing some blend of Armageddon, Dredge and Flame Legion. Because when I think overcompensating manliness, I think Flaming Skeletor Optimus Prime.

Rule #1 of online gaming: RNG hates you. Many have made their fortunes flushing things down the mystic toilet and selling the backwash. Many have watched their fortunes whisked off into the mystic sewage. It’s a merciless business with no winners, only losers and survivors.

… Survivors with enough gold to buy an in-game jet ski.

There should totally be an in-game jet ski.

What were we talking about again?

Plus, when you convert gems to gold, you (theoretically) help keep down the price of gold-to-gems for everyone else. Won’t somebody think of the freebie children!

My female sylvari still rocks a midnight fire pirate coat and crimson determination headband (pics later, when I can). She used the look for so long, it’s hard to give up. They express a certain cute modesty I can’t find in any of the exotic sets. So, I’m currently looking for pieces for the other slots that will go well with them.

I find the 25% speed boost to be useful almost exclusively out of combat. Most thief builds already have such potent gap control that the ability to run a little faster rarely seems to come up in the heat of battle. So, there’s little reason not to click it if an opportunity comes up.

I wish the active effect were more useful, but at the end of the day it’s what I think a signet should be: a passive benefit I like with an active benefit that I’m not afraid to click out of fear of losing that passive. On the flip side, you have Assassin’s Signet, which requires inordinate amounts of theorycrafting and foresight to guess if clicking it is at all worth it. In the majority of cases, not clicking it is the more beneficial route.

While having a different passive function, the Mesmer’s Signet of Midnight also provides an AoE blind and stun break. Though many Mesmers would probably trade with us with zero regrets. No speed boosts for them. Mesmers don’t run; they strut.

Ichishi.9613:

Condition that does nothing if you do nothing.

Yup, I remember that last match I won by doing nothing. That was good times.

Joking aside, yeah, thief is probably one of the easier professions to deal with this on the defensive. Especially something like a backstab thief, whose normal style of play is to do little to nothing while you find an opening, stealth (there by cleansing the condition) and then bursting down the opponent before anything can be reapplied. They’re also far less likely to be interrupted in the first place. Likewise, other professions can generally counter it in capable hands. My Mesmer brings Arcane Thievery, cuz: lol.

Where the problem seems to lie is the separation between the middle and lower tier players. It’s large stacks of confusion that rewards fairly sloppy play. By spray and praying interrupts, low level input can get mid-tier results, thanks to rather insane uptime compared to other forms of confusion.

Clearly, she saw what she was up against, and just gave up.

Some mini-pets already go for dozens and even hundreds of gold. There is already a market for them and people willing to invest the time and money to collect them. Dropping into this thread just to scoff at minis offers nothing towards the topic at hand.

Lokheit.7943:

If they ever implement the pockets system, they could let Steal be its own button (even become a non-stun break shadow return after use for some seconds so ranged thieves that need to keep distances can safely use it) so the cooldown is shown in a different box than the stolen items.

Ooh, I like the shadow return idea. I really want that to be a thing now.

I am pro this. I like to hold on to my stolen items and use them with some semblance of strategy. But since I’m rockin’ Mug and Sleight of Hand, I also like to know when my Shadow Comet of Doom is back in the chamber. Sometimes I get impatient.

A more drastic alternative might be to break out the Thief beyond just F1. Make F1 “Steal” and F2 use the most recently stolen bundle. If it doesn’t get used before the next Steal, then it just gets overwritten. Could even expand on that, and let you bank 3 bundles (F2 through F4). That might weave a little more strategy and utility into the skill. Or it might be overboard. Just brainstorming.

I have 8 characters. I came close to buying the harvesting tools both offers, but the soulbound requirement killed it. It’s not that I’m not willing to drop $30 on a single character. It’s that I’m not willing to be rushed into dropping $30 on a single character. For example, the more I play a character, the more likely I am to buy bag slots for them. I buy things for a character that I’m currently playing a lot and enjoying.

I feel limited offer items work best as account bound, since I can leap on them without fear that I’ll mis-appropriate them to the wrong character. I’ll feel more confident buying these items knowing they’ll likely be useful down the road. Essentially, I impulse buy limited offers for me. Account bound items are “mine” for the life of my account, and are much more likely to look like good deals.

Meanwhile, character bound items belong to the character. I see them as investments into that character. I buy those as “gifts” as a character proves that I’ll get back what I put into them. That process happens on my time. When you limit the availability of these kinds of items, you greatly reduce the likelihood that I’ll be in that investing mood at the same time that item is available to buy.

In this case, that’s exactly what happened. I got a strong urge to buy these items for my thief, but they weren’t available anymore. Now they are again, but I’m over it. I’m between characters and not investing in any of them right now. You missed your shot at my pockets.

There’s an actual video in the engineer forums of this being used to stack 20+ confusion up in a matter of seconds.

Meanwhile, the thief forum has complaining and conjecture.

Zacchary.6183:

What is there to nerf?

Crippling Strike has been replaced with Offer Carrot, which will buff all rabbits in the area to legendary status and improve the target’s eye sight such that they can see through stealth.

Hmm. My Mesmer can already stack 25 stacks of Might and Vulnerability with one press of F3. Sure, let’s add a crap ton more confusion to that as well. I’ll call it my buffet button.

This isn’t a criticism, since I’m still new to S/D. More a curiosity. Do you find yourself needing that much initiative gain? I find it to not be a particularly hungry set so far, but I could very well be doing it wrong.

Go ahead and post your build. Would help get more feedback.

Charr female! Least common mesmer (and character) by far! Though, I hear they do have armor issues. So there’s that.

Mine is, regretfully, human. I was going to go charr, but decided on a descendant of my GW1 mesmer. Charr/human relations have improved over the years, but not that well. Would show piccies, but my armor is in transition and not for public consumption.

I definitely use it for the Imbued Diversion bomb now. Prior to 60, I didn’t use it much. Sometimes I used it to get in a blurred frenzy if my Illusionary Leap flubbed, but I wasn’t making clones so fast for F1 and F2 cooldown to be a common issue. Anytime it was, I would just drop two phantasms and wait it out.

Also, buff rabbits.

My Thief brings all the finishers to the yard; and they’re like it’s better than yours; kitten right it’s better than yours; I’d teach you but I’m out of initiative.

On topic: Making something cost 8 initiative isn’t the answer. To anything. Ever.

Replacing Pistol #2 with a fire combo field would turn Thief into a Two Button Might-tastic Combotron 9000. 2, switch weapon set to shortbow, 2, 2, 2, 2… Is that a bad thing? Eh, not my call. But it wouldn’t do much for our faceroll cred, even if Guardians can do the same thing with a staff and one button.

I will also say that at least right now, when people demand might spamming from me, they have the common decency to give me a reach ar— place the fire field for me. There’s got to be some give and take in this relationship. Why won’t you look me in the eyes when we make boons anymore?

GiveMesmerAwesomeBuffsNextPatch()
{
	// lol
	LaughAtMesmer()
}

My main reason to dislike the focus is: “y u no hav focus mesmer?”

It’s not so much that it’s so good that I should want to use it. Rather, it’s so good people frequently demand that I use it in WvW, and will not leave me alone about it. Apparently if I’m not pulling people off walls, I should just throw myself onto my off-hand sword.

But that’s not exclusive to focus, since I could make a similar rant about portals.

While I get that people want me to contribute to the best of my capacity, I’ve decided to side-step the whole affair and WvW with professions others won’t try to play for me.

It’s important to get comfortable with your clones and phantasms. They are your lifeblood. The first hurdle many new mesmers have to overcome is the realization that they are vastly under-utilizing their illusions. It’s better to think of them as ammo rather than pets. Start churning them out early and don’t be timid about blowing them up.

On a tougher opponent, try putting a phantasm on them, switching weapon sets, then putting your other phantasm on them. If your abilities are coming off cooldown, don’t sit on them. Shatter them and replace them. Developing a natural rhythm and feel for illusion creation and destruction will be what ultimately transitions you from “leveling mesmers is hard” to being the destructive force you are capable of being.

Okay, trade you! You can have a targeted #2 ability, if you trade slot #3 skills with me!

If it were a flat 20% all around, it would not benefit Swordman more than other things. 20% faster is 20% faster. For the 3.2 second Swordsman, that’s about 0.53 seconds shaved off. For the 5.57 Warlock, that’s about 0.93 seconds off. If 20% is too much (and I’m open to the possibility that it is), then that’s fine, but a percentage is a percentage, whether the target number is big or small. I don’t see a benefit to excluding certain phantasms.

I do use it, but not for full phantasm builds. If I’ve got 25+ in Illusions and Chaotic Dampening in a build, I’ll handle tougher group battles by quick dropping a triad of warlocks. Faster attacks also means they’re more likely to squeeze out another shot before I explode them, which I think is more the intent of it being in the Illusions line.

If those times are right, it really does need normalizing or fixing. Badly. I like doubling up on swords, and if swordsman is getting nothing, that’s broken. Meanwhile, warlock getting closer to a 35% speed boost is also pretty messed up for a phantasm that already hits like a truck. I’ll happily abuse it. But it’s still messed up.

Random musing: A more interesting implementation might be something like: “When shattered, phantasms perform one last attack.” Maybe toss on a run speed buff too so they don’t lag too far behind. Something like that might integrate phantasms better into an Illusions oriented build. But warden might have issues with that. Ah well.

Points in Deadly Arts aren’t worth going into just for the condition duration. If there are traits you want, then its a welcome bonus, but condition duration is just too easy to get to spare your precious trait points on it. Most people don’t go in there unless they’re after the Venom traits. If you do find yourself with a reason to go down that line, the power and condition duration are pleasant side-effects.

I go 10 in for Mug. I like Mug.

Nah, play what you enjoy. It’s fair to give weapons you didn’t like at low levels another try, since they can often surprise you, but ultimately never play something you don’t like just because the crowd swings that way. I, for one, despise the greatsword. I see what people like in it, but I just don’t enjoy using it. Mesmers tend to have a more flexible time matching weapons to builds, compared to many other professions, so don’t feel pressured into something you’ll hate.

As such, what you do with those weapons will hinge on several factors. What areas of play are you looking to emphasize (PvP/WvW/PvE)? Because, for example, a condition heavy shatter build might rock while roaming in WvW, but won’t really shine much in PvE event farming. It’s also important to think about what kind of mechanics you enjoy using as a Mesmer. There’s a wide range of focus on this board ranging from shatter to phantasm to support to even some interesting mantra builds. You’ve got a lot of options, and many will work with GS/Staff, even if they don’t outright call for it.

Loco.4561:

Maybe a different build would be better? Have you seen any of Osicat’s Builds?

Aye, they’re a thing of beauty. Especially in his hands. Were my fingers still capable of such elegant magic, I’d sally forth into the sunset with Team Shatter. Sadly, they’ve gone old before their time and I need something a tad slower. I’d go mad with boredom if I had to go pure glowie-clones, but I still rely on them when there’s just too much going on for me to handle. I’m also about 70% PvE, which skews my build choices some.

I can get behind the dodge binding idea. Shaky fingers and unexpected twitches tend to lead me to double-tapping keys more than I’d like. I’ve had to unbind double-tap to dodge so it needs to be someplace I can reach quickly. As my joints get worse, I’m also glad I’ve got my Naga.

Phantasmal Defender is still something I turn to from time to time. He’s no longer the retaliation damage farm he used to be, but he’s still a nice bag of health. Decoy is nice. I also favor my staff. Sadly, both of those last two will kill a phantie when you’re at 3.

And then I get frustrated and blow the whole load on a shatter. Because sometimes I just want to see the world burn in an eruption of purple butterflies. … Admittedly, I’m not very good at this whole phantasm thing.

naphack.9346:

Lokheit.7943:

infantrydiv.1620:

I think thief should be able to summon a nuclear missile which just blows up the whole map and permabans any opponents.

Ok, but let’s balance it so it isn’t so OP. Just make it Shortbow new Stealth Attack. That way it should be fine!!

Boy, I’d love to reflect this.
shield stance+missile reflection chuckles

Clearly, it would be unblockable. Otherwise, we’ll have to start a new thread about how Ban Nuke is underpowered and useless.

colesy.8490:

If you’re playing ele for lighting hammer only you’re doing it all wrong imho.
Ok back to topic:

For dungeons, IIRC it’s the strongest DPS in the entire game.

I don’t think it’s so much a matter of whether it’s strong DPS or not. It’s more the idea that it may not be the best move to invest hours of your life into a character because one single utility, whether you enjoy it or not, is “the best”. Things that are “the best” usually get nerfed or fixed, and then you get a massive backlash on the forums when people who hinged their entire character on that one thing cry out that their profession is no longer viable and that ArenaNet is ruining the game. And why shouldn’t they be angry? That one thing was their entire character to them, so they essentially had their character taken away.

It’s much better to invest time into a character with mechanics and a style of play that you enjoy overall. That way your character will retain its identity post-patch.

But, that’s not to say people who enjoy Elementalist on the whole can’t enjoy a little Hammer Time if it’s on top.

Grimwolf.7163:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Oh my god, I am loving this thread… And I’m learning things about people that will save me a great deal of frustration in the future.

Exactly how few people read beyond the title of a thread before posting?

Indeed.

Oh my god, I am loving this thread… And I’m learning things about people that will save me a great deal of frustration in the future.

I don’t know about Withdraw (I assume its the same issue), but Flanking Strike does seem to be a matter of the attack queuing up after the auto-attack, rather than interrupting it. It’s a design choice that I don’t really understand. The evade portion of an ability is kind of a novelty if it can’t actually be used to dodge.

I have similar issues with Sword/Dagger’s Flanking Strike. It frustrated me enough that I gave up on Shadow Arts and went back to being an Acrobatic thief. I’ll do my dodging the old fashion way. Plus caltrops.

Dodges that don’t dodge? I got bronchitis. Ain’t nobody got time for that!