Guild Wars 2

Azukas.1426:

You shouldn’t be automatically losing to thieves 1v1 playing 6/8 of the other professions in this game.

Only because in conquest thieves have to take risks because they need to get that decap and do so quickly.

In a 1v1 deathmatch the thief doesn’t need to take any risks, he can just disengage and kite as much as he wants.

While OP is definitely salty there is some merit to the complaint. At least when talking about d/p. Thieves easily are the highest impact class in conquest to the point of being effectively mandatory at higher levels.

Generally speaking the only time a team with a d/p thief will lose to a team that doesn’t have a d /p thief, is if the rest of the thief’s team is so bad that they can’t win fights that they outnumber in. If the teams skill level is even remotely equal the team with the d/p will win everytime.

saerni.2584:

In all seriousness, if you don’t understand a class it will seem OP. Make one and see how OP it actually is.

That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Obviously if he doesn’t play the class he doesn’t have the experience to play it well so obviously he won’t do well with it.

Under your logic all classes are balanced because all classes are bad when played by a player than has no experience with the class.

The only way to make 1v1 work is to ban thieves or at least limit their trait and weapon choices. Otherwise a thief could infinitely drag out (and invariably win) any match not against other thieves.

Koolaidius.2580:

Branden Gee.2150:

This was not an intended change. I believe we are going to be fixing it soon.

Do you know when? I’ve been looking everywhere for a way to fix this.

They did fix it ages ago, but what the dev is talking about and what the other people in this thread think he was talking about are two different things.

People need to realize that the point of legendary armor isn’t to win fashion contests.

It’s a prestige item that needs to reconized as a prestige item without the viewer having knowledge of lege armor. It’s like how legendary weapons are obviously a special type of weapon even to new players that don’t know about legendary items. Legendary armor is the same way, and ArenaNet succeeded. The Lege armors are distinctive to the extreme.

Seriously?

The entire game’s combat system is and was designed around PvP. Do you really think that PvE is why we have active dodge mechanics, downstate, stunbreak and mobility skills?

Like seriously half the traits and 4/5ths of the utility skills are literally pointless in PvE and are only used in PvP.

Dadnir.5038:

He just mean that soft CC last longer with condi gear (expertise) which make them logically more potent.

I personnally won’t argue but I think that power and condi have about the same amount of CC. Saying that it’s better to pick CPC as an utility in condi build is probably both right and wrong, the reallity is that the usefullness is about the same for both condi and power build. It would be like saying WoD is a better pick in a condi build.

The problem with CPC and power builds is that CPC applies self-weakness

Astralporing.1957:

Crinn.7864:

Also it just wouldn’t make sense for the new elites to be made better than existing ones.

Of course it would make sense. It would be one more incentive for people to buy the new expac. And at the moment Anet does need a lot of those incentives if they want for the new expac to be a success.

The whole “Elites OP cuz sales!!!” argument is both old and wrong, and only exists because of people jumping on the hate train without thinking.

The argument only works if you assume that people’s primary make-or-break reason for purchasing a expac is the power increase. Which isn’t true. PvE’ers will always buy in just for the content. Story junkies will buy in for the story. The only group where elite spec performance will matter is the players that exclusively play WvW and sPvP. However those modes are competitive modes and making things deliberately OP will pretty much always blow up in your face when it comes to competitive players.

Rednik.3809:

Power cripple is one of main selling reasons in all modern MMOs expansions. Feel free to believe otherwise, but I dunno how you can seriously hope to see things not going that way.

It’s a selling point of vertical progression mmos, which gw2 does not belong to.

It’s also worth distinguishing between meta creep, and flat power creep. The term power creep came out of vertical progression games where gear stat budgets would increase by hundreds of points every cycle, and classes would be given new abilities that they could take without having to give up existing abilities. HoT builds are more of just meta creep, where they are strong enough to take over the meta.

GW2 has had less power creep in it’s entire 4.5 year life than other mmos have in a single year.

Also it just wouldn’t make sense for the new elites to be made better than existing ones. HoT elites where creep simply as a byproduct of the role changes that ArenaNet wanted.

Seyiwaji.4082:

this is really…. i don’t know maybe are my eyes broken. I have the feeling that the armor just replace the body. He doesn’t wear it. The body is replaced. Like copy and paste something.

This is actually how all armor works. All armor replaces your character’s model. Even revealing armor does this.

Astralporing.1957:

Crinn.7864:

Ohoni.6057:

You make a good argument in the first paragraph, then derail it in the second. Raids do lock out players who don’t want to raid.

“don’t want to” isn’t a lock out. It’s a purely voluntary choice. Any player who wants the legendary armor in this game has the power to attain it.

Can’t and won’t are not synonyms.

If it’s really just a matter of choice, then there’s no reason to lock it to a single, narrow gamemode at all. After all, if what you say is true, that armor signifies only a choice, nothing more.

No
If the player voluntarily chooses to never leave their safe zone then they should accept the limitations that they self imposed on themselves.

Leaving comfort zones and trying out new game modes is something that should be incentivized whenever possible.

Ohoni.6057:

You make a good argument in the first paragraph, then derail it in the second. Raids do lock out players who don’t want to raid.

“don’t want to” isn’t a lock out. It’s a purely voluntary choice. Any player who wants the legendary armor in this game has the power to attain it.

Can’t and won’t are not synonyms.

Natto.5819:

Regarding 3 and 5

3 – They said they’re working on changes, but can reveal anything yet. But because that takes time, I’m assuming noting will be done before the next season. The current season that ended was horrible for matchmaking solo teams. Next season could improve with some of the many suggestions from this forum.

5 – Sigil update is the only balance that they said they’ve been working on. No mention of actual skill balances, so the meta will continue.

Those are both presumptions on your part, and aren’t related to what was said.

When they say they are working on something but can’t reveal it, it means exactly what they said. They are working on it. No bearing on how close it is to release.

Zero Solstice.9754:

It is, in fact, not a bug; It’s for balancing purposes to help make sure that Condi builds can’t gain too much sustain, since these builds are already quite tanky and survivable.

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

Cynz.9437:

Wat? Have you checked EU LB recently? Do you know Misha is mes main and he and Sind take top two spots? Funny enough EU LB is full of warriors (Vaans alone with all his alts took few spots). Not so many thieves.

EU has always been lighter on the thieves and heavier on the mesmers compared to NA. At least at the high end.

Auto tournament is short for “automated tournament” basically periodic tournaments that are set up by the game itself. It does not mean that solo queue is going away but it does mean that people who like 5s will have a thing.

The Reddit AMA is largely voluntary on the devs part. Devs are not required to participate in the AMA. Ben was the only one speaking because he was the one that was feeling talkative today, it does not mean that he is the only dev.

I have no idea how you are deriving points 3 & 5 from what was said.

Cynz.9437:

Pretty sure resistance was supposed answer to the condi change. You know, the change might be not good when it results in more powercreep (which happened in condi change case).

I’m pretty sure resistance was a just a interesting mechanic for revs, that was later applied to warriors as a fix for their issues.

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Changing the floors does literally nothing for mid level and high level PvP, while at the same time throwing new players under the bus.

I think you need to read the OP again because you missed most of the post

I don’t think you know what a skill floor is.

Nobody on the leaderboard is playing at or near the skill floor. The variance in classes skill floor has no bearing on a class’s distribution on the leaderboard. Saying that low skill floor classes “dominate” ranked seasons is false, unless you are talking about ability to dominate bronze.

Changing the floors does literally nothing for mid level and high level PvP, while at the same time throwing new players under the bus.

Shaogin.2679:

Anet can not accurately account for individual performance in a team game.

It’s actually entirely possible to do so. Both the win condition for a match and the combat mechanics are mathematically deterministic. I spent some time back in s5 figuring out how to do a system to accurately evaluate contribution towards win condition and how to integrate it with glicko. It’s entirely doable.

However I realized there are two problems with such systems.
1) such a system is biased towards “playmaking” classes like thief. Now such a bias is accurate in that playmakers like thieves do have a higher impact on the match outcome compared to a teamfighting class. However having such a bias in the rating system would not go over well with the community.
2) such a system is fairly complex conceptually, computationally it’s not bad, but most players who aren’t big on theorycraft would have a hard time understanding the system and would likely consider the system witchcraft and write 989423 threads about “why in the name of kittens did I get X rating from Y situation”

Apolo.5942:

Dont know what game you are playing dude, most certainly NOT this pvp.

I’m confused as to what mmr you could possibly be playing at where condi has better result than power.

Like the only time condi is better is a condi necro against a support ele or bunk engi. Every other situation power just going to net better results.

Ashen.2907:

Crinn.7864:

. (Men IRL always wore some kind of trench or cloak up until about 150 years ago….

No they didnt.

And pants, or leggings, of various sorts go back thousands of years.

With a cloak or long coat over it.

The pants and shirts only is a modern thing

Xenon.4537:

I don’t understand… I was under the impression necros NEED this trait for their DPS and that to top it off… necro DPS is bad despite this trait??? What’s going on?

Both are correct. Even with the trait Necros are the second worse dps (ahead of revs) without the trait the class is basically garbage.

Muy.3170:

No! Look here most of the condition cleanse utilities and traits all cleanse 1 to 2 conditions. This does not work if there are 5 damaging conditions that are extremely easy to apply.

If you could cleanse every condi applied, condi builds would deal no damage and be completely worthless.

Also condi builds are across the board worse than power builds for every class except mesmers, and mesmers aren’t even upper-meta. You’re literally trying to get underpowered builds nerfed.

Jski.6180:

So why even have chill as a condi dmg for a mostly seemingly power dmg elite spec? At what point should the scy hit not as hard as the bleeds from the chill?

Because they didn’t want to leave a entire playstyle in the dust?

Lahmia.2193:

Jski.6180:

That would be nice but the trait is weak in spvp 1 stack of bleed is nothing if it was 1 stack of poison or torment it would be viable in spvp and still be usable in other parts of the game.

On the wvw pve split i do not think its going to happen raids have made a anet that is hellbent on making pve only content.

I mean its far more likely they would split it than redo which condition it deals. If it is true that Anet cares only about pve then why would they care if it under performing in pvp? Keep in mind they had to change it from its original form because it was too powerful in pvp.

They changed from it’s original because the original was non-functional in any kind of non-solo content.

When it made chill do damage, you would lose your damage any time someone else had applied chill over you. So for example if you had 2+ necros hitting a target (so every meta event ever) only 1 of those would be dealing damage from the trait.

Necros being strong in PvP at the time was because of the bunker meta favoring necros, combined with the existence of the mercenary amulet.

Ardid.7203:

Prize Novel = Skill.
Ferrari = Exclusivity.
Prize Novel =/= Ferrari

Ferrari’s aren’t exclusive though, they are expensive and therefore hard to get, but there is no exclusive rule that prevents certain people from acquiring them. It’s available to all people with the commitment to acquire the funds.

Raids are the same way, there is no barrier that locks players out, the only barrier is the excuses players make for why they can’t raid.

If you want to start PvP you should use the unranked queue, not the Custom Arenas. Custom arenas are typically daily farms or private 1v1 servers

Honestly surprised that it took so long. I was expecting all the rarer mats required for lege armor to spike within hours of the announcement.

I like trenchcoats. They fit the fantasy aesthetic much better than pants. (Men IRL always wore some kind of trench or cloak up until about 150 years ago. Pants are a modern thing)

Also unified armor aesthetic is a thing.

I don’t understand why people are saying Legendary armor is a “raid only” thing.

If you look at the actual requirements you need to do Fractals, 500 level crafting, and HoT meta events. The legendary insights are honestly the easiest things to acquire.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ardid.7203:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Making heavy ASAP simply due to the fact that what I personally find valuable is exclusivity. Only other legendary I own is the pvp backpiece.

Exclusivity is the only reasonable explanation for Raids. It’s also the saddest.

I’m curious, what reasonable explanation are you referring to and how is exclusivity a sad thing?

Getting enjoyment from the misfortune of others is a sad thing.

I don’t think that’s what exclusivity means.

Lege armor is a prestige item, it’s value is derived from it’s exclusivity. It would have no value as a common item.

It’s like a Ferrari. You don’t buy a Ferrari because it’s useful or practical, you buy it because it’s iconic and instantly recognizable to everyone, thus showing off your awesomeness for owning it.

zealex.9410:

maybe their next 2 year goal could be to make a lego set for wvw

Lego SMC castle would be awesome.

Danikat.8537:

Crinn.7864:

NotASmurf.1725:

400 is probably more than WoW has. At the time of GW1 Anet had ~60-80 employees total yet were capable of dishing out 3 campaigns and 1 expansion in 3.5 years with regular balance patches inbetween. Granted it was a somewhat smaller in scope (no gliding, masteries, achievements, etc although there more content to play), but still. Stop making excuses for them.

If WoW had less than 400 employees, then how’d they manage to lay off 600 employees in 2012? hint: (they where estimated at 5,000 exployees at the time, or ~4,400 afterwards)

Yeah but Blizzard also makes multiple different games. Anet only makes GW1 and GW2. And GW1 hasn’t had any new development in years. Their staff are probably down to the people who maintain the servers and a tiny team to keep things updated, if the festivals, weekly rewards etc. aren’t literally on a timer by now.

Unless Anet is going to start branching out into other things. But I don’t know what that would be. (Super Adventure Box as an independent game maybe?)

Even if you account for the other blizzard titles, you’re still looking at roughly 1,000 employees to a title for blizzard.

Also I checked Blizzard’s careers page, and they are looking for 230 more jobs on top of what they already have.

I’m sorry but 400 developers for a mmorpg of GW2’s size is understaffed.

kdaddy.5431:

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

That’s not how skill ceilings and floors work. The skill ceiling is simply the point where you can no longer become better because you are playing perfectly.

Raising the skill ceiling does not magically make top players not top. Changing who the top players are requires other players to become better than the top players.

My favorite is them turning classes like warrior which was about timing. Into a complete spammer with head butt which breaks stun and then stuns you. Then using a burst attack which damages you and then heals me. Then i use utility traits where many classes cant hurt me. Which now forces mesmers to take a shield and spam distortion, sword 2 etc etkittenerally nothing about HOT is more skilled, does it take some skill to play? Of course which is why there are so many complaints on the forum. But we care comparing playing chess pre hot to connect the dots.

Warrior is still about timing though. You don’t spam Heatbutt.

Also having damage negation skills is absolutely necessary to having a skill intensive game. If you don’t have such skills the game becomes a literal DPS burn, where it just about whoever does the most DPS first. Having negation skills requires players to bait and juke.

Glicko isn’t a progression scheme, it’s a skill rating system. Glicko isn’t here to make you feel good, it’s here to quantify your skill. Why should you be given the same amount of rating for winning against lesser players as you do for losing against lesser players?

I legit forgot Eye for an Eye. The others I do not count because they require active play from the player, or existed in the Core game.

List of passives added with HoT:

Dead or Alive (warrior)
Gale Song (ele – unused on meta)
Hunter’s Determination (Guard)
Soothing Bastion (Rev – unused on meta)
Versed in Stone (Core Rev)

And no skills are not spammed at high level, you just don’t know what high level is. But yes high level players often don’t bother juking, because there no reason to juke random plebs that they can outplay offhandily.

Tanner Blackfeather.6509:

To both release one every 2-3 months and have them all out before next xpac puts the next xpac at 16-24 months out from now. Running 3-3,5 years between expac 1 and 2, even if they keep LW up, would likely be problematic for the game.

Somehow I doubt Anet is using Lege weapons as their Expansion timeline.

I’m waiting till I see the animations before I judge

NotASmurf.1725:

400 is probably more than WoW has. At the time of GW1 Anet had ~60-80 employees total yet were capable of dishing out 3 campaigns and 1 expansion in 3.5 years with regular balance patches inbetween. Granted it was a somewhat smaller in scope (no gliding, masteries, achievements, etc although there more content to play), but still. Stop making excuses for them.

If WoW had less than 400 employees, then how’d they manage to lay off 600 employees in 2012? hint: (they where estimated at 5,000 exployees at the time, or ~4,400 afterwards)

The only thing the EU is better at is kitten waving, probably because they are trying to compensate for how irrelevant their region is in the modern world.

kdaddy.5431:

The idea that the the old core builds were easier to play is bonkers to me. Especially since you said guardians sat on there passives. You could tell a good guardian from a bad when they would time a perfect F2 when the team has 8 stacks of burning on them. Or when someone is about to get kill shotted and they time a perfect F3.

And DH can still do that. But DH can also use F3 shield for clutch body blocks which is something that core guard couldn’t do. (yes I’m aware of core guard’s shield5, but DH can and often takes that skill too)

All of the skill things that the core game had still exist and are still used. Nobody at high level spams skills. Juking is still a thing, so is faking, and so is teamplay. Now the nature of duo only has caused a lot of that to be depreciated, but that has nothing to do with class design.

Also your description of what classes weakness applies to everyone.

Some classes are more vulnerable to certain things than other classes. This is basic knowledge

Which was the process of dumbing down the game.

So wait now nerfing is dumbing down the game? Where you not also trying to tell me that power creep is dumbing down the game?

Seems to me like anything anyone does is dumbing down the game to you.

Now with HOT the game is in its simplest form. Everyone does lots of damage (except ele) and you can just hit the same 3 buttons over and over to do it. Thief is either dodge and 3. Or 5 and 3, warrior is elite skill with F1 then weapon swap and F1. Dh just put traps down and walk away, heck for revs dont even worry about how to get boons like in core GW2. They will just be passives for you.

Nobody at high level spams skills. You’d be a fool to do so, becuase of how hilariously predictable doing so makes you.

There is a video on Helseths page, maybe his first GW2 video. You watch him on mesmer fight far and his portal play is insane. Your not seeing anything like that anymore.

Last time I checked portal plays are still a thing.

choovanski.5462:

unbelievable perspective from Crinn.

does he even know what powercreep is?

I’m fairly certain I have a better understanding than most of the people that use the term.

See these forums have three false beliefs about power creep
1) that all power increases are inherently bad
2) power increase automatically equates to lower skill level.
3) all buffs are power creep

The first is false because power creep is only bad when it’s done unevenly. Power level is completely arbitrary. The only thing that matters is the power level of components relative to other components. If some classes get power creeped more than others, then yes you have a problem. If all classes are creeped evenly then there is no problem because again everything is relative.

The second is false because skill requirements are related purely to mechanics, and how difficult executing on those mechanics are. And i would argue that HoT is more mechanically complex than core.

The third is false because power creep only occurs if the power level of the “meta” is increased. Buffs to garbage skills are not power creep, unless said garbage skill is buffed so much that it’s better-than-meta.

Here is a crash course on what is and isn’t power creep.

I’m confused why it took you 2 years to realize that legendary armor was raid only. Like was the raid only Legendary Collections not a big enough hint?

Also I’m pretty sure most raid bosses are harder than blobbing

Natto.5819:

I have a friend in Germany that tells me NA is a clownfiesta. I’m not sure what that means, but I’m guessing he’s just trash talking.

You have to realize that he was probably using a NA alt account and that alt account like all alt accounts starts at low MMR. But he probably wasn’t smart enough (or honest enough) to realize this.

zinkz.7045:

Wrong.

With HoT the gap between what was optimal and what was not grew larger because of the powercreep.

Which meant for many players who previously may have been at a small disadvantage playing a build they found more engaging to play, they were now at a big disadvantage, which was to much, so many simply chose to play a different game.

And there are new suboptimal builds that have no big a difference from optimal than old.
I mean yeah if you try to a play a build that was non-viable before Hot, you’re going to be screwed, but you where screwed back then too, so I don’t see the relevance.

If making a game with a combat system that was already relatively low skilled and cheesy, even more low skilled and cheesy is your thing then well…

I’m trying to think which class is easier to play post HoT
thinking
Let me see the only class that would be easier, is thieves, and uh that’s it.

Core Guard is easier than DH in terms of mechanics. DH promotes active virtue usage while core guard just camps the passives.
Core Necro requires less mechanical knowledge than Reaper, since it lacks the combo potential that reaper does, and the lack of a offensively viable shroud means that core necro’s shroud usage is simpler.
Core ranger where you literally just 42111121111 on LB all the time.
Core Mesmer vs Chrono isn’t even a debate, Core Mesmer has none of the mechanical complexity nor APM requirements of Chrono.
I can go on

you have to realize that a higher power level doesn’t equate to lower skill requirement. The two are completely unrelated.

Crinn.7864:

Really? Without a hint of irony? The powercreep, healers, boonfest, etc has made most classes post-HoT play like cele eles that have no real weakness.

Sounds like bronze. The classes have definitive weaknesses. Revs to condi, thieves to area cleave, necros to spikes, mesmers to cleave, warrior to boon corrupt and kiting, DH to unblockables and CC, Ele to condis, engi to boon corrupt.

slashlizardy.9167:

I’m sure there’s more examples, but off the top of my head I can think of a Hoth map in swtor named Aurek Base, and now there’s an Auric Basin in HoT.

Those names actually are not related despite being phonetically similar.

“Aurek” in Star Wars is just the name of the letter “A” or rather the Aurabesh letter equivalent. “Aurik Base” can be literally be understood as “A Base” or “Alpha Base” and is a nod to real world militaries use of lettering for objectives.

“Auric” however is a actual real world word that means “relating to Gold” (which is extremely appropriate name for the area that contains Tarir)

“Faolain” is actually a Gaelic name that means “little wolf” SW:TOR’s “Veylin” seems to be a fake name that the writers just invented on the spot for the character.

zinkz.7045:

Depends on what aspect of balance you look at / consider important, sure as far as each class having a viable build the balance is pretty good, but in terms of build variety, the gap between what is “meta” and other builds,/skills/weapons/traits, then the game has been at an all time low since HoT.

The difference between the viable and the sub-viable is no different than it was.

People need to realize that the combat system is built around giving player build choices, and that “choice” includes the ability to choose bad trait combinations that have no synergy and fill no desirable role.

There are 5 slots on a team which means 5 roles to fill, if a build does not fill a role that is desirable enough to be in that 5 it will never be viable no matter what Anet does.

Most balance complaints are just people complaining that their poorly thought out build doesn’t work in a competitive environment.

Same thing with the combat, the powercreep is not good balance, it is terrible, more passives, more boon spam, more evades, more skills that do way too much, introduction of “healers” into a game specifically designed not to have them, weaknesses of classes removed or toned down, etc.

I can count on 1 hand the number of passives introduced with HoT.

As for healers, fun fact about them: The decision not to have them was not universally accepted within ArenaNet devs, and their non-existence was only because of some internal politicking on the part of a couple devs. Source

And please we haven’t had power creep since 2015, and that power creep was honestly a good thing, since it reduced the trait power delta compared to before.

Also I prefer having full supports than the endless bruiser spam of core. At least post HoT we have multiple roles to fill instead of bruisers being the god role.

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)