Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

I am curious, would necro be willing to give up some of their dmg and HP/healing/defensives for more mobility/blocks?

We have the worst defensives and the worst self healing in the game. Meta thief has better self healing than necro does.

Our damage? You realize necro has no damage modifiers on our trees right? You realize that outside of Greatsword our skills have mediocre coefficients and condi application?

Our “dmg” is purely boon corrupts, but with ArenaNet constantly nerfing boon generation I’m not sure how much longer boon corrupts are going to be relevant.

Close to death is a damage modifier. Spiteful talisman is a damage modifier. Strength of undeath is a damage modifier. Target the weak, Lingering Curse, Deadly strength all qualify.

None of which are taken on a reasonable build because they require giving up traits relevant to our functionality. They are also very weak modifiers that all have prerequisites.

Also Target the Weak and Deadly Strength aren’t modifiers, they stat additives which are no where near as potent as a multiplicative modifier.

Vornollo.5182:

megilandil.7506:

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

“Some Fights” is rather key here. It requires us to have our CD’s ready to go (which often we don’t due to having to use Initiative, our Dodges -> Heal and sometimes even our Stunbreak/Condicleanse that is Shadowstep) [<QUICK EDIT: This also includes a situation where they have spent most of their CD’s… It’s both very circumstantial, especially the warrior matchup>].
You simply can not judge PvP on a 1v1 basis. PvP doesn’t work like that. If you got issues with an enemy thief, it’s an issue for your entire team not being able to simply hold 2 points.
Like has been said before, if you can hold onto 2 points the Thief gets forced into teamfights and (s)he’ll be as close to useless as one can be.

Really, what is the deal with people and judging a 5v5 gamemode based on 1v1’s..?
5v5, 1v1, see the difference?

You misunderstand the complaint.

People get tilted at thieves complaining about fights being “too long” because some of us play classes that can’t even win equal fight regardless of duration.

To us thief complaints are like rich people complaining about their gold-plating toilet being dented

Vornollo.5182:

megilandil.7506:

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

“Some Fights” is rather key here. It requires us to have our CD’s ready to go (which often we don’t due to having to use Initiative, our Dodges -> Heal and sometimes even our Stunbreak/Condicleanse that is Shadowstep) [<QUICK EDIT: This also includes a situation where they have spent most of their CD’s… It’s both very circumstantial, especially the warrior matchup>].
You simply can not judge PvP on a 1v1 basis. PvP doesn’t work like that. If you got issues with an enemy thief, it’s an issue for your entire team not being able to simply hold 2 points.
Like has been said before, if you can hold onto 2 points the Thief gets forced into teamfights and (s)he’ll be as close to useless as one can be.

Really, what is the deal with people and judging a 5v5 gamemode based on 1v1’s..?
5v5, 1v1, see the difference?

You misunderstand the complaint.

People get tilted at thieves complaining about fights being “too long” because some of us play classes that can’t even win equal fight regardless of duration.

To us thief complaints are like rich people complaining about their gold-plating toilet being dented

Cynz.9437:

I am curious, would necro be willing to give up some of their dmg and HP/healing/defensives for more mobility/blocks?

We have the worst defensives and the worst self healing in the game. Meta thief has better self healing than necro does.

Our damage? You realize necro has no damage modifiers on our trees right? You realize that outside of Greatsword our skills have mediocre coefficients and condi application?

Our “dmg” is purely boon corrupts, but with ArenaNet constantly nerfing boon generation I’m not sure how much longer boon corrupts are going to be relevant.

In the first two seasons, and pre-HoT, necros where the quintessential selfish bruiser. Necros where slow moving but tough. However a year ago necro’s role was flipped on it’s head. Necro was changed from a self-sufficient bruiser to a support-dependent ADC. Necro went from being one of the tanky classes to the squishiest.

Now at that time the change to being support-dependant ADC (that specialized in killing supports) wasn’t all that bad because much of the meta revolved around teamfights and support duos. However the combination of repeated nerfs to supports and the enforcement of solo/duo has killed the teamfight meta and the support duo.

Necros as they stand now, are a class that is designed for a meta that doesn’t exist. We are designed for countering supports that don’t exist anymore, and are dependent on having those same non-existent supports on our team.

What are you doing with our class Anet?

Yannir.4132:

I think the first thing to do then is to limit it to 1 target. As I said, it’s annoying but it’s not brokenly OP or anything.

It’s annoying for some classes.

For others it’s a autokill trait.

Ralkuth.1456:

When you mentioned corrupt + sustain I thought it would be Curses/SR/Reaper, but I guess I just need to learn how to grow some balls and take off Soul Reaping. Curses screws with everyone, so it’s good for your survival, in a way.

The new Sigil of Courage is really helpful to making non-SR work. It’s effectively 1% Life Force every 2 seconds as long as you are attacking. Add on Hoalbrak runes and LF from weapon skills, you can get some competitive LF gain.

MerlinGamer.7410:

So today I went into the completed raid instances again today, I spent a good 2 hours walking around, looking at all the areas, reading every last little scrap of lore. My friend adverised the group as “FREE LORE- Come experience the story of <raid> – completed instance – all welcome”. For the first wing nobody came, but the 2nd 3rd and 4th people did come and we saw maybe 20 different people total.

Are you sure they where there for the story and not just to do the parts of Legendary Armor collections that can be done in a cleared instance?

megilandil.7506:

when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it

In the terms of conquest the time it takes to clear a node is very much a concern. However thieves also tend to ridiculously exaggerate the time it takes to do things.

Aeolus.3615:

Hard to tell if Anet is manipulating data but i would say so, since i bet they are tying to reduce the fights at max (no fight, not skill OP complain, no lagm WvW is fixed and every ktrain resources/chests).

Nsp population, when u log on and ur outmaned for the most time… until other servers go sleep and its out time to ktrain, then we go to sleep and its other server time to ktrain, while we woke up with everything painted in enemy color…

I bet this happens in all matches….

EDIT: i dont see why NSP looks so full…. and those population graphics…. i just lol… so perfect balanced, obviouly fake news…

So basically what your saying is that the OP picture doesn’t agree with you therefore it must be a lie.

Blaeys.3102:

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

There has been a lot of discussion in industry in the past years that conclude that variable difficulty is a flawed concept, because players are generally poor at selecting the difficulty that would give them the experience the devs want them to have.

Most modern games with variable difficulty tend to designed with the easiest mode being the one that devs feel will give the best experience and harder modes being superfluous.

Sly.9518:

Crinn.7864:

You can work around DH. Thief rotates faster than DH which means that the DH can’t pick the fight. The DH can only aggress the thief when the thief lets the DH.

Also a thief has no issue getting a +1 on DH. DH’s low base HP makes them vulnerable to spikes, and thieves are masters of the spike. Thieves just can’t 1v1 DH because it takes too long.

Again if a DH decides to bunker a point which is all to prevalent in today’s ranked world then the Thief can’t outrotate that one DH, and is completely shutout from it and again the longer the fight goes the more likely that’s DH will get +1ed. Or do you not know what a bunker does….

this is no longer the game of 5v5 actual teams That communicate and rotate at best if you have one other person with you you can have some semblance of Rotation I know this too be true all the way through platinum.

If the guard is bunking a point, then the thief has a +1 opportunity on the other points. If the guard leaves the point in order to equalize the +1 then the thief has a decap opportunity.

That’s why thieves are so strong. At any given time in a match the thief either has a decap opportunity or a +1 opportunity.

DH and druid are probably going to be ‘the’ classes for season 7

I used to do Paladin before the patch too, but now… without Fire & Air (+Chill of Death & Chilling Nova) procs you just don’t have the pressure to kill things.

Landing a full Axe 2 for a truly meaty 4k does wonders for my self-esteem.

Yeah, with necro you basically have to go full glass all the time.

I’ve been kitten ing around with this. Obviously it’s paladin so the dps is meh, but it’s got the debuff and boon corrupt spam of ye ‘ole procmancer with the sustain of blighter’s boon.

Ralkuth.1456:

I’m only playing Power Necro recently, so advice on that is to go into winning teamfights or fights you know can have the upper hand with you there.

Why would you rotate into a fight your team is winning? That’s the definition of overcommitting a fight.
I would only rotate into a winning fight if I’m expecting the enemy team to reinforce the fight.

You can work around DH. Thief rotates faster than DH which means that the DH can’t pick the fight. The DH can only aggress the thief when the thief lets the DH.

Also a thief has no issue getting a +1 on DH. DH’s low base HP makes them vulnerable to spikes, and thieves are masters of the spike. Thieves just can’t 1v1 DH because it takes too long.

Sly.9518:

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

1 DH doesn’t stop a thief from doing their job. It’s a hindrance yes, but it’s not going to shut the thief down.
Obviously a team of all DH and engi will stop a thief, but that’s a unrealistic situation, and that all DH team will get dunked on by the other 4 guys on the thieves team. (assuming those 4 are running a balanced comp)

When I say hardcounter I’m thinking of power rev vs condi Mesmer, where the presence of 1 condi Mesmer completely deletes that power rev off the face of the map.

I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no

You said that only power Mesmer is countered by thief. “Only” implies exclusivity, as in no other build in the game other than power Mesmer is countered by thief.

The necro vs thief thing irks me because Arenanet keeps getting rid of necros ability to coexist with thieves.
We used to be able to coexist with thieves, because used to be conquest involved large teamfights with small fights on the offnode. In those days a necro could coexist with thieves because the necro could “hide” in the teamfight. However arenanet has spent the last year pushing the game away from teamfights towards rolling 1v1s and 2v2s, thus deprecating necro to the extreme while making thieves stronger and stronger.

Sly.9518:

Any bunker class, specifically Guardian/DH. And it’s only power shatter Mesmer that is hardcountered by Thief, Condi shatter is on par with thief

Literally every necro build is hardcountered by thief. But it’s ok that you forgot because everyone forgets that necro exists.

Also modern bunker classes don’t hardcounter thief in conquest. Thief role dominance as the roamer/+1/decap is unhindered by bunkers. Bunkers certainly slow thieves down but they don’t shut thieves down.

The only time we had a real hardcounter to thieves was ole’ Power Revenant before the nerfs, because pre-nerf power rev was Thief 2.0

Thief won’t be countered as long as the roamer/decap is a required role for conquest.

Faux Play.6104:

You can’t be exceptional at a class unless you understand how to play all the other classes. There is only so much you can pick up from dueling another class. The off season is long enough to pick up a new class.

And the best way to understand other classes is to creep on the top level players of that class, and to read and follow buildcrafting for that class, and to monitor discussions among members of that class.

In my entire time in Gw2 I’ve played 7 matches on Mesmer. However I still know every trait Mesmer has, I know how all of their weapon and utility skills work, I know how all of their main builds both meta and sub-meta function. I know about all the phase retreat terrain exploits, and I know all relevant applications of portal.

Moreover playing the class yourself just causes you to view that class through your own capabilities, not through the optimal capabilities of the class.

Exactly. We’re talking about winning 30 games on two other classes to get your achievements for the leg backpack, not winning games at ESL level.

Still requires throwing a season.
Also some of us have mmrs high enough to be playing against ESL players.

Zomak.3168:

Played Necro from beta now with al these nurfs plague being the last straw for me. I have to find a new class to play thanks for killing my favorite class. So unless I’m playing the story mode no point to my favorite class anymore… happens in every game at some point the developers kill there own game with nurffs bats.
#missOLDguildwars2

Realistically necro is in a better spot post patch than before because the nerfs to sigils and other classes reduced the damage being thrown around, which in turns means that our Life force is slightly less outclassed now

People dodge 1/4th skills by anticipation which is unrelated to telegraph. It is not possible to react to a 1/4th telegraph because the lower bounds of human reaction time is 0.2-0.3 + latency.

Sly.9518:

Again it’s just not speed if you actually read what I posted I never said Cast time didn’t impact it, but animations do since you see them more through all of the particle affects flying around, and good thin I have never been below G3 in any of he seasons.

And again you were trying to Say revenant doesn’t have the biggest Telegraphed skills, show me a skill that is more telegraphed than Chaotic Release or Drop the Hammer……

Gravedigger doesn’t have a single particle effect. Yet nobody above bronze ever gets hit with Gravedigger. Because it’s slow.

Chaotic Release and Drop are easy to dodge becuase they are both slow. The particle effect size is irrelevant. If Chaotic Release applied it’s effects in 1/4th second it wouldn’t be possible to react to even if the size of the dragon was increase 200%.

Necro has the largest telegraphs because Necro has the longest casts. Just spend 5 minutes on a necro alt and memorize their animations.

Also you should never ever use particle effects as your primary source of telegraph. Particle effects do not cancel if the ability they are associated with is interrupted. Juking people that watch effects is easy because they won’t notice the cancels.

The Mechanic.3567:

they seriously have a point about thief’s trickery line and the requirement for the initiative.

Tickery’s dominance isn’t because of the 3 initiative. If trickery only had the 3 initative trait it would never be taken.

Tickery is always taken because of how good Slight of Hand, Thrill of the Crime, and Bountiful theft are, on top of having Preparedness.

Tickery’s major and minor traits are better than every other core thief traitlines put together.

Zietlogik.6208:

I doubt they care about their rating in the first place if they can’t play, or can’t learn to play more than 1 class…

Being mediocre at several classes is worse than being exceptional at one. There is a reason that nearly all of the ESL players played 1 maybe 2 classes.

Coolguy.8702:

The necro i was talking about was very good, unlike you guys that must be new to necro he actually timed his dodges, his stab, cc and he also had great positioning. And the 3 were running dps builds and took over 1 min to kill him

And a player of that caliber on any class vs players that bad will net you the exact same result.

High skill player pubstomping plebs proves nothing.

NikeEU.7690:

You were raid leader in swotor? How did you handle Dread Master Brontes in nightmare mode if you think gw2 raids are hard?

NiM Dread Guard at tier was so much worse.

Gw2 thinks it has DPS checks. NiM Dread Guards was a real DPS check.

Daddicus.6128:

I asked why, if there was a target, weren’t there separate mastery tracks.

There is a separate mastery track for raids though.

Yannir.4132:

Honestly you need to get behind the fact that you will need to alt if you want to progress those achievements. It’s made that way because they want you to go through the effort of trying out new classes. Effort is what makes you earn that LEGENDARY.

The problem with requiring alting is that it means you have to effectively throw a season in order to get it. If you are someone that really cares about performing well in PvP the Ascension is nearly impossible because nobody that cares about their rating is going to go play classes they aren’t as comfortable with.

You literally have to whelp a season to get the backpack.

Arc Divider has a massive (and distinctive) animation and particle effect. However prepatch it was impossible to dodge without preemptively anticipating it. Why? Because it was fast, not because it was quiet.

Speed is everything. Particle effect size is irrelevant once you get out of silver.

Vitali.5039:

Unholy Feast have get a nice situational damage boost at the cost of the more reliable Retaliation buff, that was better, but Axe were lacking in AoE damage and we can still get Retaliation from Spiteful Spirit.

You’re forgetting blighter’s boon. Under the old axe #3 you would get 1% Life Force for each target struck with axe #3 because it generated a boon.

The new version of the skill cannot generate life force no matter how you trait.

Telegraph is how fast the skills come out, not how flashy they are. With the exception of the revenant elites most revenant skills come out fast.

Also Chaotic Release is probably the best juking skill in the game because the dragon does it’s entire animation even if you cancel the cast. However this functionality is rarely if ever used because revenants have no skills that they need to juke to cover. Unlike Necromancer where weapon stow juking is about the only way to ever get your heal off.

Sly.9518:

that honor almost exclusively belongs to Revenant

As someone who plays neither warrior nor revenant. Dodging Warrior attacks is significantly easier than rev attacks.

Also Necro probably has bigger telegraphs, but most people forget necro is even a class these days.

The funny part is that power necro is still better off than condi necro, which as this point is relegated to killing support eles and being junk at everything else.

Don’t worry, I’m sure next patch they will give us more boon corrupts on random weapon skills.

flow.6043:

Completely wrong.
D/P has access to a lot of stealth which is among the reasons why it is the most viable PvP build for thieves.

Having stealth access and will be destroyed if revealed are not the same.

D/p daredevil doesn’t use stealth defensively to the point that reveal means anything beyond a mild inconvenience.

Moreover d/p dunks on necro so hard that a reveal on shroud #5 is irrelevant to the outcome of the matchup.

Cynz.9437:

/sigh
I am not talking about eating it once due to porting into trap, i am talking about eating it twice due to algorithm despite porting only once into trap.
/sigh

You eat damage each time you cross the ToF boundary.

If you teleport from outside of TOF to a point on the far side of TOF you take 2 hits because you crossed the boundary twice.

If you teleport from inside TOF to a point outside TOF you only take 1 hit because you only crossed the boundary once.

Necros don’t have a block so that they can better fulfill the class fantasy of being a punching bag.

Given that most thieves don’t even build around stealth post DareDevil, no it’s not.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

“Anet change this terrible meta”
“Okay”
“How dare you change the meta!”

The grass is always greener…….

Highlie.7641:

This is what happens when you give professions way to much stability, They don’t even realize how much CC there is now.

“how often do you get immobed, dash away and instantly get immobed again?”
Every Time you Engage an opponent, What kind of players do you fight? even in bronze tier NA they know enough to stack CC. It’s like you don’t even play this game.

Stability doesn’t even effect immobilizes though, stability access is completely irrelevant when tolking about immobs.

Also few builds can apply immob twice.
Warrior – has no immobs
Guard – has one on scepter, zero otherwise
Power rev – none
Condi rev -none
Ranger – 2-3 depending on build
Thief – 1 if traited, a spammable one if and only if they have mainhand pistol
Scrapper – none
Necro – none
Ele – none
Mesmer – none.

no, reaper does not point brawl. If a necro is winning a point brawl it’s a sure sign of his opponents being bad.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Crinn.7864:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Crinn.7864:

If a necro is on point he is a free kill because he can’t kite.

I find that if a necro utilizes chill, or grasping hand, or spectral walk, they can kite a bit…maybe not as much as most classes but they can still kite a bit.

But when you’re on a point you can’t kite.
You can’t kite when confined to a point because you are working in a confined zone. Hence a necro on point is a free kill.

Same can be said about most classes. NEcros dont need to kite with the chills/pulls/fear/CttB will slow down/stop his opponent for them to receive some pain. Its about being a smart necro/reaper.

Except necro will lose pretty much every flatground matchup except support builds.

Necros have to kite, if the necro doesn’t kite the necro is dead. and you can’t kite while holding a tiny circle. Brawling with a necro is suicide.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Crinn.7864:

If a necro is on point he is a free kill because he can’t kite.

I find that if a necro utilizes chill, or grasping hand, or spectral walk, they can kite a bit…maybe not as much as most classes but they can still kite a bit.

But when you’re on a point you can’t kite.
You can’t kite when confined to a point because you are working in a confined zone. Hence a necro on point is a free kill.

If a necro is on point he is a free kill because he can’t kite.

Djinn.9245:

If you enjoy optimization and don’t feel that you obsess over stats, then clearly those comments are NOT about you.

You do realize that most of the people complaining lump anyone who knows anything about buildcrafting as <insert passive-aggressive label>

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ryou.2398:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Chun.5827:

When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).

Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.

You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.

But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.

That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.

That’s not what meta means. Meta is simply the understanding of the most popular builds.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame

Ryou.2398:

Crinn.7864:

Well this thread is insulting to the extreme.

Some of us enjoy playing the optimization game. I don’t understand this mentality that having good performance in a game makes you a bad person.

I have not seen one person imply that.

Then you’ve missed all the passive aggressive hate being thrown towards people that “obsess over stats”

Well this thread is insulting to the extreme.

Some of us enjoy playing the optimization game. I don’t understand this mentality that having good performance in a game makes you a bad person.

Plaguelands actually has use in sPvP. It’s a easy way to get a decap.

Balance patch was fine. Please stop fearmongering.

Saiyan.1704:

Is this Sigil really all that bad on this 1 class who literally asked for a Thief specific sigil? I mean, I’m still waiting for Thief to win a 1v1 fight by stealing 20stacks of might and wreck shop with it.

My power necro got farmed in a match earlier by a thief that would constantly steal my 25 might stacks with headshot interrupts. And there is nothing more broken than a thief with 25 stacks of might.

He even whispered me after the third time he killed me about how jokes the sigil is.

Granted in the case of necro it’s irrelevant since thieves will always farm necros regardless of sigils.