A block for yourself could still mean the difference between being downed or not. A lot of end game bosses have 1 shot attacks.
I can’t imagine too many guardians are going to rely on VoC’s passive to protect them from end-game boss 1-shot attacks. If it’s, sure. But VoC’s active, or simply dodging, seem to be the much better way to avoid being 1-shot by nasty atttacks. And that’s even assuming it’s up during the 1-shot attack.
And to illustrate my point, think how many dodges we can do (even without Vigor) in the 40 seconds it takes to recharge VoC’s passive. For one block that we can’t control, 40 seconds just seems excessive. The active is great, I’m not saying it isn’t. But the passive (or its cooldown) just doesn’t seem to be on the level of the others (or at least on VoR’s).
That’s not the point.
I never said you “rely” on it for anything.
I’m just pointing out what it could be useful for and in what situations. No one is pretending it’s some OP ability. But it’s far from being useless like what the OP is implying.
My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.
Sorry but I don’t buy it. 10/30/30/0/0 has AH available but I wouldn’t call it an AH centered build at all. Mace is the only option that would be even minimally effective with AH and you’ve already stated that its not a dps weapon.
What you “buy” or don’t buy is irrelevant. The fact is your own post has ironically demonstrated you are wrong.
Your point all along has been that having AH in a build wastes “potential dps” to be had in a build that don’t run it.
But your own post has proven that you don’t have to sacrifice AH to gain dps and your own data proves it.
Also, its ironic that your own post has also demonstrated that given the same traits a sword/torch combo has far more dps than mace/torch, which also proves your initial choice of the mace weapon to be wrong as well.
You can deny reality all you want, but even your own words contradict you.
there’s no need to call for personal insults now. this goes for everyone, of course.
@Death – i am reading. the thing is when you move traits around like that, inevitably other issues such as condition cleansing or HP will come into consideration.
That’s totally irrelevant to what was being discussed.
The other guy I was responding to was making the point that survivability (ie heals from AH, hp and cleansing) is not important in pve and that “potential dps” is wasted when you don’t build for it.
I was the one making the point that sacrificing survivability for marginal gains in dps was a bad idea.
So if you were actually paying attention to this whole thread you’d realize what you just said was actually agreeing with my core point.
If i where a couple years younger i’d waste more time here trying to make you understand how wrong you are, Death, but instead i’ll just leave you and your total ignorance in peace, have a good night. Everything i could add to this discussion is already written, that way OP or anyone else looking for some info can just read it.
I will just hope they’re not as blind as you.
If you were a couple of years younger you’d be in a stroller, and not able to explain anything to anyone.
I don’t know how you pulled those numbers so I can’t speak to how authentic they are.
I can only point to the basic fact that you can do 10/30/30/0/0 AH build as well, which make it identical to your build in dps traits yet still retain AH. (Fiery wrath and radiant power included)
So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.
At this point I can only /facepalm
Those builds aren’t effective with AH, you run them for the crit%, MF if anything. You’ve been saying 0/0/30/30/10 zerker does as much as a Fiery Wrath/Radiant power build. It simply doesn’t. You said GSword AH can beat any Mace build, it doesn’t. If you would have said a 10/30/30/0/0 AH build could be high dps then I would have agreed with you, but I don’t see that anywhere unless I missed it.
Those numbers were drawn from taking the Invulnerable Golem’s HP bar to 0 three times consecutively averaged from three tests each. I read it has 80K HP, dev posted it IIRC. 240K/‘Seconds to Kill’ = DPS. Go try yourself.
My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.
You wanted to try to show that there are variants without AH that out damage it. Well that’s obviously empirically false since your own numbers prove that even with 10/30/30/0/0 you can STILL TAKE AH and retain the dps AND survivability.
When you refuse to see that even your own numbers prove you wrong then there’s no hope for you.
Also I like how these other two are all of a sudden concerned about cleanses when the whole time the discussion was based on how much more useful more dps is.
People like you are simply blindly contrarian and refuse the facts even if it’s slapping you in the face. I’ve clearly stated exactly why you are wrong here with your own very data. If you still can’t see or refuse to see then there’s no help for you.
Surviability that you do not need, and 450 toughness is nothing compared to cleansing in pve.
What are you talking about. In what way does having AH exclude cleanses?
Unless you’re running some sort of x/x/30/30/x you can’t cleanse, and if you do run x/x/30/30/x your dps is a bad joke (4930.71 effective power assuming 10/0/30/30/0, 4711.08 effective power assuming 0/0/30/30/10 (5653.29 with unscathed. See? Bad joke)).
Learn to read. Maybe then you’ll see I was using his build numbers to make a point.
I think you are confusing my build with that other guy with mace.
I have pure of voice in my build.
see, if you have pure of Voice which dictates 30 in honor, and you have 30 in valor for AH, there’s no room for you to reach numbers a build like 10/30/30 even with AH can pump out though.
[added: what Oxxy said above my posts ^^^]
It would help if you actually read my post. I was using that guy’s own numbers as an example of why the dropping of AH is not warranted even in his build.
o gosh. okay, okay.. so Death, you’re “okay” with a build like 10/30/30/0/0? and sure, if you’re 30 deep into valor already, why not take AH if you’re playing in a group. i was under the impression that you were advocating a 0/0/30/30/10 build with AH, can do as much damage as the other more damge centric builds listed here….
though argubly, 30 in Honor and 30 in Valor can be another debate in itself as well.
Personally I prefer the 0/0/30/30/10 variant but I was using that as an example to prove a point. The other guy’s build without AH was 10/30/30/0/0 which btw also did not have cleanse and he tried to pass that off as higher dps without AH.
That’s obviously not true since you can also take AH with 10/30/30/0/0 with radiant power and fiery wrath intact and full zerk. So the loss of AH in that case is not warranted whatsoever.
Also, purity of voice is not the sole method for condition cleanse anyway. Soldier runes can be taken to cleanse with shouts if needed.
The bottom line is, no matter how much mental gymnastics you go through, an AH variant is still the better choice unless you go the meditation route or even healway route.
@Death – with the build Oxxy quoted, sure you lose that much toughness and AH, but you didn’t take into account the difference in HP as well, which is just as important as toughness, as well as AoE cleansing. which for certain encounters is what eats you up as most direct damage can be easily negated / avoided in PvE.
I think you are confusing my build with that other guy with mace.
Deathpanel, have I said in any of my posts that AH sucks ? I have not.
My argument is that what you state as ‘very high dps’ is not very high dps compared to builds that run Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power. So if more discussion is to be had please stick to the argument.
I don’t like to post specifics but it seems necessary here.
0/0/30/30/10 GSword Zerker – 2242 DPS
20/25/0/25/0 GSword Zerker – 3037 DPS
10/30/30/0/0 Mace/Torch Zerker – 2926 DPS (without Protectors Strike which can add up to 300 DPS if used right)
10/30/30/0/0 Sword/Torch 3243 DPS
10/30/20/0/10 Scepter/Torch w/Unscathed Contender maxed at 4K DPS
Here is an empirical data set. All tested with DPS optimized traits. Abilities were triggered so not to cut off auto attack chains. Sword of Justice, Signet of Wrath and Bane Signet used on all tests. All tested on 2600 Armor target. I don’t want to hear how skills and traits are wrong cuz you’d never run them in PvE, this is simply a comparison between some builds and weapons. Torch was used to keep Burning on the target for Fiery Wrath, Torch 5 is never used for DPS.
Please post your 0/0/30/30/10 build and play style that can add at least 24% dps to what I pull out of it. I would honestly love to run it if it could exceed 3K.
Again, I could be doing something wrong. These values are not be-all end-all and are subject to change depending on the scenario. I urge people to test for themselves.
I don’t know how you pulled those numbers so I can’t speak to how authentic they are.
I can only point to the basic fact that you can do 10/30/30/0/0 AH build as well, which make it identical to your build in dps traits yet still retain AH. (Fiery wrath and radiant power included)
So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.
dps comes mostly from gear and some from trait synergy. You can go full zerk with AH build so the only difference is traits.
How much extra dps do you think you can squeeze out of traits by not speccing AH?
AH comes from the line that grants 300 toughness and 30% crit damage. (450 toughess if you take certain trait in that line)
That in itself is extra dps potential. (Roughly 14% extra damage at 50% or so crit chance)
Also, if DPS was all that mattered there would be no reason to even have a guard. I’d just get my might stacking zerk warrior and call it a day.
Survivability does actually matter in pve, just in more difficult instances like fotm. The difference between surviving with 10% life and recovering to full via AH or being downed in 1 hit is the difference we are talking about.
The point is, how much would you sacrifice in terms of utility and survivability for that tiny extra sliver of dps.
Percentage based modifiers are better than raw stats, i wish i had the exact formula, but sadly i don’t, i’ll just post values from that buildcraft website, without consumables, using exotic zerk gear and weapons, ascended trinkets and only one force sigil (even for S/F setups):
Running 10/30/0/5/25 with 10 might and 50% fury uptime (which seems to be the average pug values), without unscathed, we have 6584.4 effective power, with unscathed 7901.28, plus 1% from each boon you have.
Running 10/30/0/30/0, with the same 10 might and 50% fury uptime, we have 7242.84 effective power (6584.4 while your stamina is full).
Now with 15/25/30/0/0 (using greatsword or hammer instead of S/F) the effective power is 6421.28, 10 might stacks, same fury uptime (which equals to 63.8% critical chance here in case you’re curious).
So you basically lost raw DPS, fire fields and reflect lenght from master of consecrations or shout cd and some might from valor, plus cleansing from PoV (which is way better than AH in PvE, by the way) in favor of some toughness (any boss is still going to one or two shot you if you screw up) and a weak heal? Yeah, nope, you’re the one sacrifying utility in order to get AH.
@Death – fair enough then. Blood did use the mace/otrch build example to out DPS a hammer build running AH. it’s hard to compare this way though since you’re both advocating different builds. at least DPS can be quantified, and only to an extent. whereas survivability, cannot be as easily quanitified, if at all.
Blood was mainly stating that with 10/30/x/x/x you get 300 precision (plus another 15% RHS), 100 power, and 20% extra damage, and would out damage a build without. and namely, if one’s build or play didn’t need AH or full 30 in valor to survive. but again, as survivability can’t be measured on paper, it’s up to the player to choose what they want to play.
i do want to say the damage increase you get from those trait changes can be quite significant. also sword auto if you’re going for highest, sustained DPS, imo.
@OP – do check out the link swiftpaw linked earlier.
I actually mentioned already that the extra precision is offset by the loss of 30% crit damage.
Also the fact that mace simply does lower base damage than GS and attacks slower. The symbol for GS also far out damages the mace symbol. Skill #2 for GS out damages torch 5. Skill #3 for GS is only marginally less damage than Torch #4.
This shows that skill by skill the GS out paces mace/torch by far.
It’s arguable that at best the dps difference is trivial whichever ends up higher in this scenario.
The main difference here is that my setup would still have the AH for survivability while he does not. This shows that he literally sacrificed survivability to gain little to nothing in return which was my point this entire time.
Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.
As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.
Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.
Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.
It’s like having your cake and eating it too.
There’s just one thing… you don’t need AH.
In every MMO, dungeons runs are made with just enough support to keep everyone alive, more than that was always a waste, here the situation didn’t change. This game has a lot of mitigation thru aegis, dodges, absorptions and reflects the level of support needed in general PvE and dungeon running is minimal compared to other titles, and i know it must be a pain to realize that you’re wasting potential by running around with your favorite trait, but you gain nothing by thinking that AH is needed for anything outside PvP (while we’re at it, i prefer monk focus over AH in PvP).
You don’t NEED a lot of things.
I can run through any exp dungeon with NO traits selected.
That doesn’t mean it’s the best way.
To reuse my analogy, you don’t NEED polio vaccinations either. You can still survive just fine as a cripple.
But it is the best way, perhaps i failed into explaining my point, allow me try again:
Extra survival in PvE is wasted potential that could be turned into damage, making the run faster and easier.
dps comes mostly from gear and some from trait synergy. You can go full zerk with AH build so the only difference is traits.
How much extra dps do you think you can squeeze out of traits by not speccing AH?
AH comes from the line that grants 300 toughness and 30% crit damage. (450 toughess if you take certain trait in that line)
That in itself is extra dps potential. (Roughly 14% extra damage at 50% or so crit chance)
Also, if DPS was all that mattered there would be no reason to even have a guard. I’d just get my might stacking zerk warrior and call it a day.
Survivability does actually matter in pve, just in more difficult instances like fotm. The difference between surviving with 10% life and recovering to full via AH or being downed in 1 hit is the difference we are talking about.
The point is, how much would you sacrifice in terms of utility and survivability for that tiny extra sliver of dps.
Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.
As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.
Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.
Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.
It’s like having your cake and eating it too.
There’s just one thing… you don’t need AH.
In every MMO, dungeons runs are made with just enough support to keep everyone alive, more than that was always a waste, here the situation didn’t change. This game has a lot of mitigation thru aegis, dodges, absorptions and reflects the level of support needed in general PvE and dungeon running is minimal compared to other titles, and i know it must be a pain to realize that you’re wasting potential by running around with your favorite trait, but you gain nothing by thinking that AH is needed for anything outside PvP (while we’re at it, i prefer monk focus over AH in PvP).
You don’t NEED a lot of things.
I can run through any exp dungeon with NO traits selected.
That doesn’t mean it’s the best way.
To reuse my analogy, you don’t NEED polio vaccinations either. You can still survive just fine as a cripple.
isn’t that what timidob is saying though? that AH is very strong. and you can gear offensively with it as well.
i don’t have the numbers to back it up mace vs GS dps, but sure. i only brought that up beacuse you said “[Blood was] doing it wrong”. i can argue that if you’re going for raw damage, i wouldn’t spec for AH and take more dmg amplifying traits, and use mace/torch since mace inherently adds some self sustain via a block, a healing symbol, as well as a healing auto. now i’m just aruging for the sake of arguing though ; )))
I said he was doing it wrong because he asserted that his build with mace would out dps a GS build assuming same zerk gear and cited burn damage as part of his calculations. His build also didn’t include AH which lowers his survivability a lot.
My point was not only was he sacrificing his survivability for what he thinks is increased dps but rather his build doesn’t even have that increased dps he thought he had due to his weapon choice of mace compared to GS.
Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.
As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.
Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.
Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.
mace and torch burst is amazing, especially if specced with full or close to full zerker. and with the right traits.
the torch isn’t neessarily taken for burnign damage i assume, though it’s always nice to have. DPS is DPS, at the end of the day. but rather, the ability to upkeep burning on all targets will constantly give that 10% dmg increase from fiery wrath, which Bloodgruve explained. and that’s huge, especially just for a 10pt investment, into a line which also gives power.
torch 4 is huge single target dmg. mace 3 is huge AoE dmg if you can get it to proc when you want in PvE (again, just takes to know encoutners or tells). mace symbol 2 can tick for over 1k+ per tick. mace auto can hit for 3k, 3.5k, 4k+ under the right conditions. so mace / torch CAN be used for high damage.
No one is saying it can’t be used for high damage under the right conditions. (full zerk).
The question being discussed is, does that exceed GS dps with full zerk?
My face hurts when I see people actually having so much trouble with mobility that they have to run Retreat [e] or Traveler runes.
Not everyone is running healway
Nor do we want to be forced into staff as secondary weapon.
Meditation guards or any kind of balanced guard spec needs some kind of mobility boost, and right now these runes are the best option.
Exactly. Staff is one of the worst weapon choices for meditation guards. So having the traveler runes freed up a weapon slot and/or utility slot for meditation guards.
The downside of course is slightly less dps but the run speed and boon duration more than makes up for it.
For the record, this isn’t me just creating a platform to judge everyone
in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar…“it’s a trap!”
Obviously considering colesy is known for trolling Mesmer forums and hating on certain weapon types with no substance behind his arguments. This whole thread is a giant flame bait.
I’d say any hate for GS is plenty substantiated. Whether it’d be appropriate in this particular thread when he’s already said he’s not trying to judge anyone is a totally separate issue.
Sorry but that’s not convincing coming from you, the guy who’s on a crusade against the GS.
I recall you created a whole flamebait thread hating on the GS before that died/was closed by mods.
The GS has it’s own role as a secondary weapon, and regardless of how you hate on it the facts won’t change.
I thought it was pretty clear I was discussing the passive effect, but I’ll reiterate that point in case it wasn’t. The passive effect of Virtue of Courage provides a single self-block once every 40 seconds. That seems to me to be a long cooldown for a single block; especially considering the timing of the block is uncontrollable (meaning it might very well be wasted on an auto-attack or other similarly weak attack).
A block for yourself could still mean the difference between being downed or not. A lot of end game bosses have 1 shot attacks.
It also means the difference between being backstabbed for 12k damage from a thief in stealth or blocking that attack completely.
Here is the thing; I want to play GS and I want to do as much damage as possible, preferably being able to chase down and finish up targets (which seems to be my biggest issue)
The good old 0/0/30/30/10 build – AH is nice for commanding. Or 0/0/20/30/20 – so you can get that extra condition removal on the last line trait. 0/15/20/30/5 is fine as well if you want to have quick f1 to cast per things you tag.
Mix knights with cleric, and celestial (trinkets). But what is most important, for me as a commander is. Sigil of energy on your weapons (staff/mace and focus).
Just be that guy who’s eternal, but can’t kill anything – well your staff will tag everything; which counts.
What matters is the little less time you spend multitascing or worrying about your life, the better. And staff allows you to perma skill 1 and tag everyone else. And the mace and focus will ensure your longivity. Hands free to type or press your push to talk and shout your commands.
:3
I keep seeing these gear type mixes. Why not just go full PVT?
The survival playstyle with focus on things other than the game makes sense to me. That is why I opted to not go for a necro commander. Necro has too many ground targeting skills. I like the sigil of energy idea. I’ve seen it on several builds and I wasn’t sure at first.
I think I may hit spvp 8v8 and give some of these build themes a whirl before dropping coin.
It all depends on play style.
The bottom line is whatever gear choice that allows you to stay alive yet still tag some kills or support your team in a meaningful way will work.
I see you haven’t really done testing then… unless I’m missing something big. Do you have ‘empirical’ evidence?
Maybe you don’t know how to use mace? Torch was used to help maintain Burning during the tests, other off hands are better in play. Never stated mace was the best, simply a comparison. Scepter w/ Unscathed Contender is the highest I’ve found..
Sorry but if you base your build around mace damage and burning and consider that high dps then you don’t know what you are doing.
Zerk gear amplifies raw damage and a GS will easily out dps a mace/torch.
Burning damage is trivial relatively and don’t even register by comparison in that scenario.
The good old 0/0/30/30/10 build – AH is nice for commanding. Or 0/0/20/30/20 – so you can get that extra condition removal on the last line trait. 0/15/20/30/5 is fine as well if you want to have quick f1 to cast per things you tag.
Mix knights with cleric, and celestial (trinkets). But what is most important, for me as a commander is. Sigil of energy on your weapons (staff/mace and focus).
Just be that guy who’s eternal, but can’t kill anything – well your staff will tag everything; which counts.
What matters is the little less time you spend multitascing or worrying about your life, the better. And staff allows you to perma skill 1 and tag everyone else. And the mace and focus will ensure your longivity. Hands free to type or press your push to talk and shout your commands.
For the record, this isn’t me just creating a platform to judge everyone
in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar…“it’s a trap!”
Obviously considering colesy is known for trolling Mesmer forums and hating on certain weapon types with no substance behind his arguments. This whole thread is a giant flame bait.
Though you have to give credit where credit is due. I actually think he didn’t troll at all in this thread.
Give him time. I estimate it’ll happen a few posts after anyone mentions how much they hate the GS or love it.
True, but then again, a regen warrior with full melandru runes and lemon grass food aren’t the only opponents I face in WvW. The fact that this build has a nemesis isn’t really a reason to dismiss it. The risk of meeting that person 1 vs. 1 isn’t high so it doesn’t factor into my own assessment of the value such a build has, nor would I think it should for anyone else.
The problem is, that’s pretty much what most warriors gear for nowadays so you’ll be seeing that a lot.
Secondly, that’s just ONE example of how easily you’ll get shot down.
Any number of classes with strong cleanse will make a joke out of you since you are a one trick pony (burn).
The fact is burn guards currently are not viable in any form of pvp. It’s unfortunate but the truth.
Do you even command in WvW? Scratch that, do you even play a guardian?
Not only have you said that players who melee bosses at Fractal 48 need to learn to play, but now you’ve told someone to use full knights as a commander.
Now I’m probably wrong, so any guards who are more familiar with the class (shelved mine months ago) feel free to correct me, but wouldn’t it make sense to just go full soldier/sentinel since you just need to maximise your survivability while letting your zerg output proper damage?
Nice trolling.
I have 2 80 guards.
One of my guards is a commander and she happens to be in full knights during wvw sessions. My other guard is a full zerk meditation dps guard.
You see unlike you I actually play the content I comment on and know what I’m talking about.
Edit: Apparently you also didn’t bother to read my post since I already stated it’s possible to be a tanky dot bot with soldier/sentinel but you’ll be stuck not supporting or killing anything and be bored.
Reading is hard apparently.
And for the record, I never said to not melee in FOTM 48. My statement was regarding specific boss fights in FOTM 40+. Not every team can be 4 dps warriors and 1 guard. Nice try twisting my words. Insert coins to play again.
Your build sacrifices a lot of survivability to gain little to no additional dps. (assuming same full berserk gear)
The math to back this up?
If you need me to explain common sense to you then there’s no hope for you.
AH or MF is akin to having a second heal.
His traits only grants him additional precision and a bit more power, which is offset in large degree by the loss of 30% crit damage from valor.
Meanwhile, he has 300 less toughness. (less survivability) and 30% less crit chance (less dps as explained before) and no AH or MF to heal with.
Also, meditations will gain fury with 10/15 patch with trait, which will give it a sizable dps boost. That is impossible with his build.
And finally, his build uses mace/torch. Mace is one of the worst dps weapons for guards. AH build with GS will easily outdamage that even with those traits.
This is all assuming same armor jewelry. (Full zerk)
If you need AH to roll that’s fine, I’m not calling them bad traits at all, just not high dps builds. I did my time with AH and moved past it. I’ve also done countless actual dungeon runs and don’t find a need or benefit for AH personally. Testing in the Mists is simply the easiest way to get quantitative data.
I guess it’s up to the individual to determine what is a ‘huge difference’ in both survivability and DPS for themselves.
To each his own.
Blood~
It’s not a matter of “needing”, it’s a matter of something simply being a better option.
Your build sacrifices a lot of survivability to gain little to no additional dps. (assuming same full berserk gear)
You can run all the exp dungeons with no traits at all and still do well as long as you know the mechanics, but that doesn’t make it a better choice does it? Just being able to do something with a certain build doesn’t make it better.
Given two different options one of which is empirically better why would you choose the other?
you get kitten weapons from the daily chest aswell in fractals. if you dont want to play the stat combo lottery, you can always craft.
and if yoy all get kicked from the fractal before you get the chest, report the user for scamming.
Well, having 13 characters like I do with different builds, the chances of getting a stat combo that I need on a ring is significantly higher…
Also, you can get INFUSED rings, which saves you a ton of coin over just crafting and then upgrading to infused.
Add on top of that the ability to outright get ascended weapons whereas it takes days of time gating and a bunch of gold just to craft the ascended weapon is helpful.
For the record, this isn’t me just creating a platform to judge everyone
in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar…“it’s a trap!”
Obviously considering colesy is known for trolling Mesmer forums and hating on certain weapon types with no substance behind his arguments. This whole thread is a giant flame bait.
A regen warrior with full melandru runes and lemon grass food can literally stand there and laugh in your face as you try to inflict burn on him without flinching.
But of course it’s up to the player to decide how to play their characters. I’m simply trying to point out the facts and save people some frustration.
How does it make your heals less effective? If you heal for 250 it doesn’t matter if you have 1000 health or 10000 its still 250 more health they have to get through to kill you… Larger health pool actually allows you to get MORE passive heal ticks in from your guardian because it’ll be harder to hit full health.
I don’t recommend a Guardian running in large group WvW ever completely ditching PVT gear, their base health is far to low to manage without an extra buffer against large groups.
It makes your heals less effective if you have less armor because of it since you take more damage per hit in that case and it would take more healing to regain lost health.
The only danger in having less health pool is from condition bursts and that can be dealt with by various cleanses guards have.
So you run dungeons, with pugs and want to know the best builds for you that can help yourself do lots of damage/help the team out so you’re not stuck running with 5 altruistic guardians buffing eachother constantly and doing no damage?
There are alot of great guides out there for dungeons, but the main factor you need is DAMAGE.
people say blah blah you need healing PVT guardians to support!
Myself and alot of people say GTFO with pvt guardians and tanks.
So here you can discuss the type of builds you run- what you think suits you and your team best
The fact is there are other classes that can do conditions far better and more consistently. While it’s POSSIBLE to do a burning guardian, considering the current condition meta and how much cleanse and -condition gear are being used it would not be smart to do so unless you want to be relatively ineffective.
The problem with these boards is that people do assume a lot of stuff and offer information that they have not tested themselves. The info that I’m offering here is my best attempt at the truth, take it for what you will. I urge people to test it for themselves and make their own conclusions.
Blood~
As I’ve already explained in my post. There’s no real way you can gain more dps with traits unless you massively sacrifice survivability.
That’s exactly what you’ve done with that setup.
A build without monks focus or altruistic healing has far less survivability and it will especially hurt if you go full zerk.
Frankly, I’ve done far more than just your little test in the mists. I’ve done countless actual dungeon runs with almost every single gear/trait combination possible with my guards. (I have 4 full sets of exotic armor and jewelry for my 1st guard alone)
The difference between having AH or MF and not is huge in terms of survivability while the dps difference is not. (Assuming same gear)
The burning build I have for PVE is very specialized … I wouldn’t advise it for general PVE like dungeons, etc… That’s not it’s purpose.
For PVP, especially in the current meta, I’m finding that the build is very resilient to cleansing. If you get your duration up to 100% (like mine does), you can use VoJ in a passive approach and cleansing doesn’t become an issue. People will either waste their cleansing on a 2 second burn or eat it because they don’t consider Guardian burning a threat … either way, they fall behind rather fast.
Sorry but that’s simply not true. There are more specialized condition builds for other classes that easily outputs far more condition damage more consistently than your build, and if they can be dealt with by cleanses and -condi duration gear/food then so can yours to an easier degree.
Anyone actually still doing fractals? You get more gold by chopping an orrian sapling.
No one ever goes to fractals to get gold.
People go to get ascended infused rings and weapons which saves a ton of gold on having to craft them.
Only thing is that they can drop from the same places ascended crafting mats do (i.e. Champion loot bags). Anyway I don’t even want to think about the chances of getting a drop, let alone with the stats you like….
You can get ascended infused rings and weapons from reward chests.
and I still don’t understand why the Virtue of Courage’s Aegis is on a 40 second cooldown. It’s a block….a single, solitary block…and it’s on a 40 second cooldown. A warrior with a shield has a 3 second block on a 30 second cooldown and a guardian with a focus has a 3-block skill on a 45 second cooldown. Yet Virtue of Courage grants a single block once ever 40 seconds. And you can’t even choose when it procs. I don’t get it.
That single block for you and nearby players easily means the difference between success and a wipe.
If I simply replace the soldier armor for knights, my crit chance goes up by about 10%, but my power goes down by about 200. I don’t know the math behind comparing the two stats, but is the extra crit chance worth more from a dps perspective vs the higher power?
Extra crit chance is worth it if you have +crit damage %.
It also depends on what you are planning to do and what your armor stat is already at.
It also depends on what your current crit percentage is at or if you have any skills or traits that can boost your crit percentage.
Warriors can get away with more soldiers gear because they have fury abilities and traits that grant them more crit % for example.
Guards will get fury with meditations next patch in oct but if you run AH the build is still the same.
If you run with zergs a lot I would say a mix of soldiers and knights would help.
If you solo roam a lot I’d probably spec more dps for quick bursts. Guards currently are not too good at solo roaming relatively.
hi guys, i am pretty new to the class (made a guardian as i hate fighting bunker builds LOL) yeah anyways, i made a guardian, i wanted to have bunker build with good power and healing, so now i have full sentinel’s with dolyak runes, what do i need to get for trinkets? and what traits for hammer, GS and sword and shield?
your advise is highly appreciated.
Vitality as a major stat is not very helpful for bunker. It makes your heals less efficient, and is easily melted by any burst damage if your armor isn’t high.
I would swap out the sentinel stuff for something else.
I don’t think guardians can really bunker effectively in current meta.
What you can do is gain vit and toughness from traits via some variation of x x 30 30 x and gear towards dps with knights/berserkers. (Full knights, full zerk, or a combination of the two depending on how tanky or bursty you want to be)
just to clarify, AH only heals the Guardian for each boon that that same Guardian applies to himself or any of his allies.
so me and me Guardian buddy each lay down a different symbol and we’re dancing around in ‘em. he gets heals for the boons he applies on himself and me. i get heals for the boons i apply on myself and him. but i don’t get heals for the boons from his symbol that are placed on me.
so there would be no “stacking” with AH, if that’s what i think you mean, OP.
Full knight is definitely not a good choice. As a commander you should focus on T+V but not P. Solder/Sentinel combined with cleric is recommended. Overall, you should have at least 3k armor + 20k HP plus some decent healing power.
The point is to max out mitigation since you are the commander and need to survive. Vitality is mostly a useless stat since it makes heals less efficient and get’s shaved off like nothing against burst builds if your defense isn’t very high.
If you just want to be the moving blue tank dot and never want to kill anything or even support I guess soldiers/sentinel would work.
Personally I’d go for clerics or knights so at least I can support or kill on occasion.
