Guild Wars 2

Tim.6450:

So asking for difficult content is bad? Good to know.

So I can feel better about my low damage gear choices.

And here is the assualt on my person. Just because I want more variety doesn’t mean that I try to feel better about my gear choices.

Without the return of the trinity no gear with non dps survival stats will ever be optimal. (I include condition as a dps stat in this context) Also ANET’s philosophy seems to be geared towards focusing on active skills and defenses. You can see this from their explanation on why they are changing stability.

Also if you ask for more difficult content for the sake of difficult content then yeah it’s bad. The real question should be to ask for more fun content.

Windsagio.1340:

Well the changes are happening, some of them are already announced and in the track.

And you know, I’d be willing to make a bet that it doesn’t please anet much that a lot of players run dungeons simply for the gold/hour payoff.

Yeah but you can’t really do much else in dungeons except farm. There’s no such thing as replayability in pve dungeons in an MMO. No matter how fun a dungeon is it ceases to be fun after the 100th time. You can only mitigate it by doing things such as having randomly generated maps and/or mobs or continually come out with new dungeons which is not only infeasible but splits the player base thin.

Dungeons are just a means to an end in MMOs. The true replayability comes from rewards such as loot/skins and pvp. If they do anything to make dungeon runs take longer without an appreciable increase in reward people will most likely stop doing them and move on to something else more rewarding.

ODB.6891:

On the extremely unlikely chance ANET was to make such changes…what are you going to do then…follow zerk players to whatever next thing they choose to do for speed/profitability and complain about that too?

Exactly right. I’ve already pointed out that these people don’t realize the consequences of what they are asking for. To justify any change there should be a net positive result and I don’t believe their ideas would result in one.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Again, provide an example with an explanation of how you know I am being dishonest. Explanation especially, please. I am rather patient, and as I already hunted down links from over a year ago, you are surely capable of finding something less than 48 hours old.

You can scroll up on this thread in previous pages. Examples include your claim that just because something is discussed a lot means it’s a problem. I pointed out a lot of people discuss global warming is a hoax as well but that doesn’t make it a hoax. If you already hunted down a link from 2 years ago just to somewhat justify your statements you can surely go back a page or two. I’m not going to re-paste 5 pages of bad arguments from you each and every time you pretend you weren’t dishonest. I already rehashed your bad arguments several times already.

All right, something to work with. About time I got that from you.

Unfortunately for you, dozens, if not hundreds of threads all discussing the same topic indicates there is a problem (indications are not definite, remember). It may not be mathematical in nature, but there is definitely a problem.

For the hundredth time, just because a lot of people discuss some topic doesn’t mean something being discussed is a problem. Claiming that is a logical fallacy. It’s basically an offset of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

It means it is worth looking into, however. Something you clearly have not. If you did, you would realize the problem is a social one arising from mechanical actualities, and that it is indeed real.

“Worth looking into” is not the same as “It is a problem” as you original stated. You obviously know how fallacious your arguments are after I’ve pointed it out and even cited the specific fallacy so you are dishonestly backtracking.

Just because a lot of people discuss something doesn’t mean it’s a “social problem”. You basically replaced one term with another yet still used the same fallacious argument.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Again, provide an example with an explanation of how you know I am being dishonest. Explanation especially, please. I am rather patient, and as I already hunted down links from over a year ago, you are surely capable of finding something less than 48 hours old.

You can scroll up on this thread in previous pages. Examples include your claim that just because something is discussed a lot means it’s a problem. I pointed out a lot of people discuss global warming is a hoax as well but that doesn’t make it a hoax. If you already hunted down a link from 2 years ago just to somewhat justify your statements you can surely go back a page or two. I’m not going to re-paste 5 pages of bad arguments from you each and every time you pretend you weren’t dishonest. I already rehashed your bad arguments several times already.

All right, something to work with. About time I got that from you.

Unfortunately for you, dozens, if not hundreds of threads all discussing the same topic indicates there is a problem (indications are not definite, remember). It may not be mathematical in nature, but there is definitely a problem.

For the hundredth time, just because a lot of people discuss some topic doesn’t mean something being discussed is a problem. Claiming that is a logical fallacy. It’s basically an offset of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Sagat.3285:

Can you specify what majority?? Most of the player base is not speaking anyway they just play and don’t care,those who care are either on forums or promoting it. You learm from other games previous mistakes first, that’s why we have no trinity or generic questing. Majority is quiet as the grave how is Anet supposed to know what they want?? Ever heard of what the game needs??

You apparently don’t understand what I was talking about.

I simply stated ANET is best served by catering to the majority of players’ needs. I never stated I know for sure what those players’ needs are. I wouldn’t pretend to speak for others.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Again, provide an example with an explanation of how you know I am being dishonest. Explanation especially, please. I am rather patient, and as I already hunted down links from over a year ago, you are surely capable of finding something less than 48 hours old.

You can scroll up on this thread in previous pages. Examples include your claim that just because something is discussed a lot means it’s a problem. I pointed out a lot of people discuss global warming is a hoax as well but that doesn’t make it a hoax. If you already hunted down a link from 2 years ago just to somewhat justify your statements you can surely go back a page or two. I’m not going to re-paste 5 pages of bad arguments from you each and every time you pretend you weren’t dishonest. I already rehashed your bad arguments several times already.

AVM.5746:

Okay, I know the term “good” can be ambiguous, but just hear me out on this. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t the only one that was disappointed in the Zhaitan fight. I mean you worked all those story missions and traveled all the way to orr to engage in a battle that meant spamming “2” for three minutes (or whatever you hotkeyed the trigger at the time).

Sure it was “pretty” to watch, but it was TOO EASY and a big slap in the face, considering how difficult some of of his minions were. There are arguments justifying, "Well Zhaitan was basically a necromancer. And Necroes are not generally stronger than his minions. " That’s not the case I’m trying to say here, I’m saying “boss battles,” not lore logic.

What I feel, is that a final boss battle should include the culmination of all the skills you’ve learned up to that point. And if you don’t apply them, you fail. It shouldn’t just be a fancy cinematic mixed with so little action that even a new guy can do it. SERIOUSLY! I really feel that a level 1 newbie could have killed Zhaitan! I mean all he’d have to do is sit at the cannon and press the button right?

Have you ever fought a disappointing boss? Or been a situation where it was even missing a boss battle? What do you all think? I personally think its not just about the visuals and storyline, but it’s also got to include your peak skills and experience.
: The boss battle should satisfying both as a game and visual story.

The only way it could be epicly good is if they made it a world boss where 100+ players are involved. A dungeon boss or storyline boss would have to be toned down a lot and essentially be Zhaitan 2.0.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

A liar can claim he is honest all he likes. It doesn’t change the fact he is a liar. The discussions so far are ample evidence of how dishonest you are. All I’ve done is called for you to provide evidence when you didn’t before.

Please, give an example of where I’ve been dishonest and how you know.

I already provided repeated examples in this thread. The fact that you ignore them and keep on asking is in itself a dishonest statement.

Sagat.3285:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zerker can be viable without being optimal (it is in PvP and WvW). I have no problems at all with all dungeon paths having a meta, and I don’t mind some of them being all zerk. I just dislike all of them being that way.

What you personally dislike or like is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What matters is what the majority of the player base wants in an MMO game. And you obviously don’t speak for the whole player base.

Majority over quality? So you telling that if the majority of players before release wanted hard trinity they should have implemented it? Majority want easy quick pve from Woodenpotatoes’ interview I heard otherwise from them. A company needs to identify who to follow and to avoid you don’t just blindly say follow the majority especially when most of the current population is made of a lot casuals.

This is a game played by players and ANET is a company who profits off the players. So it’s obviously smart to cater to the needs of the majority of players. There is no inconsistency in my statement.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/960-class-balance-philosophies/

Necro

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/496005243 @7:54

These Berserkers are still going to be the highest DPS in the game.

Hey, I told you I could link quotes from ANet if you wanted. Am I being dishonest, or are you grasping at straw for another scarecrow to knock down?

Wrong again. You are the one that chose to speak for ANET without quoting in the first place. I merely pointed that out. In no way is that a strawman. My statements were factual.
Also necros do have crippling abilities already, so that is in fact in line with what ANET said.

You said:
“ANet has stated that Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession and very difficult to get away from. Is it? No.?
ANET said:
“Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.”

Those two statements are not the same. ANET never stated it would be very difficult to get away from necros.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, quickly, on the design philosophy at play here (you can feel free to disagree, but this is what I feel):

We want the Thief to be the class that most “slips through your fingers”. Other classes like the Ele and Mes have some of it too (and rightly so), but if anyone is escaping a fight, that should be a slippery Thief.

The Necro, on the other hand, should be the dude you CANNOT get away from. It’s an attrition based class, so the idea is that if you lock horns w/ a necro, know what you’re getting into: you’re fighting a class that’s built for attrition. It can dot you, dps you, rip your boons, and severely hinder your movement. AND it also has the ability to soak up a lot of damage. So the longer the fight goes, the stronger the Necro should get. That’s the idea behind Death Shroud, but little escape ability.

So we don’t want that attrition class to also have great ways to escape. This used to be the case, and we felt the Necro was just too strong if it was great at attrition as well as movement/escape. We wanted the Necro to be more about attrition, and for other classes (Thief, Ele, Mes) to be more about escaping and mobility.

Hope that makes sense.

You were saying? I can keep going linking quotes if you like. My statements have been nothing but honest. I’ve done my research and am prepared to back up each and every statement I have made in this thread. Can you say the same?

A liar can claim he is honest all he likes. It doesn’t change the fact he is a liar. The discussions so far are ample evidence of how dishonest you are. All I’ve done is called for you to provide evidence when you didn’t before.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zerker can be viable without being optimal (it is in PvP and WvW). I have no problems at all with all dungeon paths having a meta, and I don’t mind some of them being all zerk. I just dislike all of them being that way.

What you personally dislike or like is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What matters is what the majority of the player base wants in an MMO game. And you obviously don’t speak for the whole player base.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/960-class-balance-philosophies/

Necro

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/496005243 @7:54

These Berserkers are still going to be the highest DPS in the game.

Hey, I told you I could link quotes from ANet if you wanted. Am I being dishonest, or are you grasping at straw for another scarecrow to knock down?

Wrong again. You are the one that chose to speak for ANET without quoting in the first place. I merely pointed that out. In no way is that a strawman. My statements were factual.
Also necros do have crippling abilities already, so that is in fact in line with what ANET said.

You said:
“ANet has stated that Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession and very difficult to get away from. Is it? No.?
ANET said:
“Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.”

Those two statements are not the same. ANET never stated it would be very difficult to get away from necros. According to your quote ANET said necros have abilities that allow them to chase down enemies who are low on health, which for the most part is true.

It seems like you do nothing but misrepresent and strawman.
Your ideas are bad, your arguments are terrible, your statements are dishonest, and your ego won’t allow you to admit you’re wrong despite having your own lies laid out and dissected and debunked repeatedly.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Did I directly quote them? No. Was I stating facts? Yes.

ANet has stated Beserker is supposed to be the highest DPS gear set. Is it? Yes.
ANet has stated that Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession and very difficult to get away from. Is it? No.

Seriously guy you need to stop with all these fallacious arguments it’s making you look bad. (well worse)

“Did I directly quote them? No. Was I stating facts? Yes.”

This statement easily shows your dishonesty. If you didn’t have the quotes then you don’t get to talk for them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Again, I clearly stated that ANet defined how those things are supposed to be (if you like, I can link their statements), yet you claim those were my words.

You are still lying. This is what you said VERBATIM:

You’re right; I’m not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not. That is ANet’s job. Berserker is supposed to be the highest DPS set, and it is! Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession that is hard to get away from and…well, it’s not. Moral of the story: ANet isn’t perfect at making things the way they are supposed to be.

Your contradiction is due to the first and last sentence of that paragraph that are in your own words, what ANET may or may not have said about berserker or necros is irrelevant because that is not what I was calling you out on. (Not that you even actually quoted ANET anyway. Your statements regarding necros and berserker are just your own opinion of what ANET wants considering one can make a very good berserker necro that isn’t attrition based in pve as well as wvw.)

“You’re right; I’m not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not.”
and
“Moral of the story: ANet isn’t perfect at making things the way they are supposed to be.”
Are contradictions.
class dismissed.

Jerus.4350:

DeathPanel.8362:

Jerus.4350:

DeathPanel.8362:

Balekai.6083:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the difficulty on enemies went up, some people would switch away from Zerker. Statistically speaking, they may be an insignificant portion, but it would still be a drop. I never said that some who can’t run zerker now would run zerker later. I said some who can run zerker now could not run zerker later.

And not all mobs in dungeons are skippable, so it’s quite possible adding Retaliation would make a difference. The impact of any change depends greatly on where the change is made as well as what the change is.

Not meaning to offend but are you new to MMOs or something?

Making content harder is not going to make people switch over to zerker. It’s going to make zerker even more important. It will make elitism go through the roof and gear checks the norm. Unless you specifically change content to nerf zerker somehow, which just means the next best thing become the new meta and few months later you end up back here complaining about that meta build. It’s an needless and endless cycle.

Any kind of elevation of difficulty naturally leads to these types of results. I’ve been playing MMOs since EQ original and this is the one trend that is consistent in all MMOS that raise difficulty in that way and it’s corrosive to the player community and discourages pugs.

You either have not thought out the consequences of your ideas or your analysis is flawed as many people in this post as well as myself have demonstrated.

What games like UO or EQ did to raise difficulty was simply increase mob health and damage by 1000%, which led to content 1 hit killing and players taking too long to kill stuff before dieing without optimal DPS/ganking. Those Devs at the time didn’t have much choice due to the technical limitations in 95-2000. So the meta was kill it asap before it killed you (at least in UO which is what I played). That’s when just going pure DPS thrives and that isn’t what anyone is really arguing for who want to open up the meta.

Actually in EQ it was all about the trinity system taken to the extreme. You needed a tank, puller, slower/mezzer/debuffer, healer, dpser(main assist), secondary tank/secondary assist or else it’s a no go. It would take 30-60 minutes+ sometimes just to get a team together and sometimes not at all. This is obviously not the right way to go but that is the ultimate result once you start pushing content requiring different builds in a party for the sake of diversity since the only way to incentivize/force people to have different builds is to make them absolutely crucial to success of a party and that’s guaranteed to turn off a majority of the people.

Or you brought a Shaman, a bard, and only if content was difficult enough a tank and maybe grab a cleric/ench if it stressed the shaman/bard too much (I played way too much EQ Bards were OP!)

Bards were good at soloing light blue to blue to farm gold and exp but when you try to level AA off of slightly higher end stuff you need a full meta group. For true high end stuff you needed a whole raid. I remembered having my guild raid of 100+ people wipe because a single shaman messed up and aggroed the boss before we got the tank rotations ready. One person’s single mistake wiped out 3-4 hours of work with a 100 people. That’s what true difficulty is and I for one don’t want to experience that again.

If only some of the kids today actually had to go through what we went through they’d be a lot more appreciative and stop asking for more difficulty. We had to coordinate freaken tank rotations and we didn’t even have teamspeak back then. They know not what they ask.

Talking velious, maybe luclin era and before aye? Even then bard played Mezzer/puller and could play slower as well in the toughest group content if you had a competent tank/healer.

But yeah, I don’t miss that hard trinity because you’re right, I remember simply not doing any higher end content many days because we didn’t have our tanks or healers who were able to handle it on that day.

I played until Omens expansion I think. As I recall monks usually are pullers because of feign death to avoid excess adds. Bard mez is pretty unreliable since it can be resisted a lot an don’t last as long and not a good substitute for Enc mez and slows. Although this may have changed in later expansions.

Yeah, EQ is trinity taken to the extreme where higher end mobs could 1/2 shot you if you weren’t a tank.

Jerus.4350:

DeathPanel.8362:

Balekai.6083:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the difficulty on enemies went up, some people would switch away from Zerker. Statistically speaking, they may be an insignificant portion, but it would still be a drop. I never said that some who can’t run zerker now would run zerker later. I said some who can run zerker now could not run zerker later.

And not all mobs in dungeons are skippable, so it’s quite possible adding Retaliation would make a difference. The impact of any change depends greatly on where the change is made as well as what the change is.

Not meaning to offend but are you new to MMOs or something?

Making content harder is not going to make people switch over to zerker. It’s going to make zerker even more important. It will make elitism go through the roof and gear checks the norm. Unless you specifically change content to nerf zerker somehow, which just means the next best thing become the new meta and few months later you end up back here complaining about that meta build. It’s an needless and endless cycle.

Any kind of elevation of difficulty naturally leads to these types of results. I’ve been playing MMOs since EQ original and this is the one trend that is consistent in all MMOS that raise difficulty in that way and it’s corrosive to the player community and discourages pugs.

You either have not thought out the consequences of your ideas or your analysis is flawed as many people in this post as well as myself have demonstrated.

What games like UO or EQ did to raise difficulty was simply increase mob health and damage by 1000%, which led to content 1 hit killing and players taking too long to kill stuff before dieing without optimal DPS/ganking. Those Devs at the time didn’t have much choice due to the technical limitations in 95-2000. So the meta was kill it asap before it killed you (at least in UO which is what I played). That’s when just going pure DPS thrives and that isn’t what anyone is really arguing for who want to open up the meta.

Actually in EQ it was all about the trinity system taken to the extreme. You needed a tank, puller, slower/mezzer/debuffer, healer, dpser(main assist), secondary tank/secondary assist or else it’s a no go. It would take 30-60 minutes+ sometimes just to get a team together and sometimes not at all. This is obviously not the right way to go but that is the ultimate result once you start pushing content requiring different builds in a party for the sake of diversity since the only way to incentivize/force people to have different builds is to make them absolutely crucial to success of a party and that’s guaranteed to turn off a majority of the people.

Or you brought a Shaman, a bard, and only if content was difficult enough a tank and maybe grab a cleric/ench if it stressed the shaman/bard too much (I played way too much EQ Bards were OP!)

Bards were good at soloing light blue to blue to farm gold and exp but when you try to level AA off of slightly higher end stuff you need a full meta group. For true high end stuff you needed a whole raid. I remembered having my guild raid of 100+ people wipe because a single shaman messed up and aggroed the boss before we got the tank rotations ready. One person’s single mistake wiped out 3-4 hours of work with a 100 people. That’s what true difficulty is and I for one don’t want to experience that again.

If only some of the kids today actually had to go through what we went through they’d be a lot more appreciative and stop asking for more difficulty. We had to coordinate freaken tank rotations and we didn’t even have teamspeak back then. They know not what they ask.

Oogo.4083:

can i walk and jump around the new map and its difference lvl of biomes if i don’t master gliding? is it like dry top or silverware ? or is the gliding must for the new map.????

You probably need to master it if you are going for zone map completion.

Test.8734:

From the Ten Ton Hammer interview:

" Ten Ton Hammer: Where would you place the Wyvern, in terms of difficulty, compared to other world bosses already in the game?

Jon: That we don’t really known yet.

Kevin: He’s in a few different places in the expansion and what’s cool about that guy is that he gets exponentially harder the smaller the area he is in, because he cuts so much of the ground. There’s a few different difficulties with the same creature in different areas. We have him on some smaller platforms that are much more difficult to fight him on."

The last bolding is mine. It looks like we will fight the same world boss in more than one place, and it appears the major difference between fights won’t be changes to the boss itself, rather how big is the area it’s in.

This kind of “copy & paste” content is the kind of thing ArenaNet begain using heavily in the Silverwastes (the four fourtresses are basically big copy and pastes, with the same events). The fact one of the HoT battles they’re talking the most about has also been subjected to “copy & paste” is a really bad sign, IMO. It hints that there will be a lot of repeated content in the expansion.

Does someone else share a similar opinion?

It’s pretty obvious a lot of things are copy paste. For example the Rev attack animations and the druid staff attack animations are copies of existing animations. The only thing different are the effects of those attacks and even then they look to be minor alterations of existing game effects pieced together.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

You aren’t forced to play the zerk meta and that’s the bottom line. So according to your own logic you shouldn’t care about it because you have the choice to choose it or not. Thanks for defeating your own argument.

I accept your concession.

And likewise, if a Cleric’s meta arose, you wouldn’t be forced to play it. Your entire argument was that players like you would be forced to change how you play when it is quite clearly not true in the slightest.

You do realize digging yourself deeper and throwing out more strawman doesn’t actually help your argument right?

Windsagio.1340:

I’m legitimately boggled. This is a serious “Up is down, blue is red” moment.

Or in the case of this argument, “opening up options is forcing people to play a single way”

More strawman arguments.

Reading comprehension is not your friend apparently. Earlier in the thread I actually stated I’d like to see other builds be brought in line to be just as optimal such as boosting condition damage mechanics.

The guy I was responding to wants to nerf content in such a way that zerk builds specifically are bad against it so that other builds are better in comparison.

So the main difference here is while I advocate for boosting for equality he advocates for nerfing and enforcing his views.

I recommend you read some earlier posts before you embarrass yourself misrepresenting my position any more.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why? Because playing what is optimal is a choice you make. The game does not force it on you in any way. But if you set a goal (which being “optimal” is a goal you desire), then you need to do what is necessary to meet that goal if you think you will meet it.

Regardless, you are not being forced to do anything. You chose to do that yourself. Choices have consequences.

Wait… are you trying to argue against yourself now? I could literally copy and paste your statements here in mock responses to your earlier statements in the thread bemoaning how zerk meta is ruining pve and that diversity needs to be encouraged/enforced through changes. Where’s all this choice talk coming from?

You aren’t forced to play the zerk meta and that’s the bottom line. So according to your own logic you shouldn’t care about it because you have the choice to choose it or not. Thanks for defeating your own argument.

I accept your concession.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Running what is optimal is a choice. You make the choice, you do what is necessary to fulfill your goal. But you are not being forced because you chose it.

Congrats, you’ve just defeated your own entire argument for changing the game to make different optimal builds.

Since if what you say is true then it doesn’t matter that there’s a zerk meta for pve since it’s your choice whether or not you want to use it given that all other builds are viable anyway.

I accept your apology and concession.

Lol you just don’t get it. I’ve explained in excruciating logical detail to you many times already the implications of what you are asking for. Go read a book on basic logic and read up on what default position means. Hopefully you can throw out less strawmans after that. Class dismissed.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yet you keep coming up with nothing to explain how Zerker being optimal in all dungeon content isn’t “forcing” people to play a certain way, but anything else becoming optimal, in some old or brand new content, does just that.

You’re playing a game where you need to follow all the rules and mechanics of the game. That is a necessary constraint.

The point is I’m not forcing people to play things my way like you accuse me because the game is this way already. My input now has no bearing on how this game is and used to be since this is the status quo.

However as I’ve explained already if you advocate for a change where people adapted to the current state have to change their ways to run dungeons optimally, you’ve just forced this subset of people who run dungeons optimally to play things your way.

Get it now?

Windsagio.1340:

And here’s the thing you need to understand. I’m insanely stubborn and patient. You can strawman me as many times as you want, and I’ll continue to just correct you in slightly different wordings. It doesn’t hurt my case much to be able to refine and restate my position any number of times. If anything it helps me hone my point and my message.

You should look up the definition of what a strawman argument is, because if you knew you would know I never strawmanned you.

Also I never denied that the optimal curve is not even for pve, your response implying I deny this is in itself a strawman against me ironically.

My main point is you need to figure out how to address the unevenness of the optimal curve in a smart way such that you aren’t forcing diversity for the sake of diversity resulting in less fun for everyone due to unintended consequences. If any solution fails to result in a net positive outcome then the logical choice is to stay with the status quo until a solution resulting in net positive outcome can be reached.

If you read my posts previously to the other guy you’d know this is my central point.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Windsagio.1340:

No, I"m sorry. Making other options viable is not enforcing those methods.

Other options are already viable since all options are viable. Viability is not the same as Optimal. Based on your comments you just want the game to be played your way with optimal builds according to you. That is the very definition of forcing others to play your way.

How is something different being optimal forcing anyone to play their way any more than zerker being optimal forcing anyone to play your way? Double standards, much?

It’s pretty sad you still don’t get it after it’s been explained to you many times this thread.

If state A is status quo, and you change the game such that state B is the new optimal where state B is the one advocated by you and players who adapted to state A is forced to now change their setups to play in state B optimally, you’ve just demonstrably and by definition forced people to play the game your way.

I’m not calling for any changes so I’m not forcing anyone to play my way since that is the way things are already. If you knew basic logic you’d know the fact that I took the default position is in no way using double standards.

You are the one calling for changes therefore it’s incumbent upon you to show why it is needed and you’ve failed to make your case. It’s just one fallacy after another with no good arguments.

Windsagio.1340:

No, I"m sorry. Making other options viable is not enforcing those methods.

Other options are already viable since all options are viable. Viability is not the same as Optimal. Based on your comments you just want the game to be played your way with optimal builds according to you. That is the very definition of forcing others to play your way.

Windsagio.1340:

My own biased version woudl be that the sides are (And I hate to be going to a binary, but as you said we’re generalizing for simplicity).

People that want to see more variety of play encouraged either through social means, or in the extreme through bold gameplay changes. They feel that the prevalence of one style of play leads to boring encounters and play. There’s a small, vocal group that want to have a style of play that includes extremely limited/repeated roles, but a lot of variety between roles.

~~~

People who either don’t want the style of play changed (they’re happy with their current learning, don’t want their farms slowed down, enjoy the thrill of rapid burns) or are cynical about the prospect of the change and think there is no viable solution, beyond replacing one problem with another.

~~~~

I am really in the first group. I think there’s a lot of potential for improvement, and I think the hints we’ve seen from HoT are HUGE steps in that direction.

The problem here is that the first group of people you mentioned that you admit you belong to want to change the game to enforce their own opinion of how gameplay should be onto everyone else.

Currently you are free to use whatever build you choose in any content. Nothing is preventing you from doing so. However people like you are not satisfied with this status quo and want to change the game to make everyone else play the way you want.

That is antithetical to the motto of GW2, which is “play your way”, unless you took that to mean specifically just play your way…

This type of thinking is corrosive to any gaming community and has many negative consequence which I’ve already laid out in this thread. (enforced group roles, worse elitism and gear checks, longer time to form pugs are just some of the potential negative results of what you espouse)

Balekai.6083:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the difficulty on enemies went up, some people would switch away from Zerker. Statistically speaking, they may be an insignificant portion, but it would still be a drop. I never said that some who can’t run zerker now would run zerker later. I said some who can run zerker now could not run zerker later.

And not all mobs in dungeons are skippable, so it’s quite possible adding Retaliation would make a difference. The impact of any change depends greatly on where the change is made as well as what the change is.

Not meaning to offend but are you new to MMOs or something?

Making content harder is not going to make people switch over to zerker. It’s going to make zerker even more important. It will make elitism go through the roof and gear checks the norm. Unless you specifically change content to nerf zerker somehow, which just means the next best thing become the new meta and few months later you end up back here complaining about that meta build. It’s an needless and endless cycle.

Any kind of elevation of difficulty naturally leads to these types of results. I’ve been playing MMOs since EQ original and this is the one trend that is consistent in all MMOS that raise difficulty in that way and it’s corrosive to the player community and discourages pugs.

You either have not thought out the consequences of your ideas or your analysis is flawed as many people in this post as well as myself have demonstrated.

What games like UO or EQ did to raise difficulty was simply increase mob health and damage by 1000%, which led to content 1 hit killing and players taking too long to kill stuff before dieing without optimal DPS/ganking. Those Devs at the time didn’t have much choice due to the technical limitations in 95-2000. So the meta was kill it asap before it killed you (at least in UO which is what I played). That’s when just going pure DPS thrives and that isn’t what anyone is really arguing for who want to open up the meta.

Actually in EQ it was all about the trinity system taken to the extreme. You needed a tank, puller, slower/mezzer/debuffer, healer, dpser(main assist), secondary tank/secondary assist or else it’s a no go. It would take 30-60 minutes+ sometimes just to get a team together and sometimes not at all. This is obviously not the right way to go but that is the ultimate result once you start pushing content requiring different builds in a party for the sake of diversity since the only way to incentivize/force people to have different builds is to make them absolutely crucial to success of a party and that’s guaranteed to turn off a majority of the people.

thefantasticg.3984:

Nice jumping to conclusions there. Since, you know, you didn’t ask for a time frame on when I ran all those COF p1s… Because I’m a nice guy I’ll let you know that I farmed COF p1 long ago… when it was profitable.. Stopped when they nerfed alts. At 6-8 minutes a run it’s not hard to rack them runs up.

Not seeing how the part you quoted was a strawman argument, but you’re free to think as you wish. Doesn’t hurt me in the slightest.

Regardless, instead of punishing zerker meta in dungeons/fractals (which is the only place the meta actually exists) let’s have a discussion on bringing condis up to the direct damage standard… Of course, going to be hard to do with that pesky 25 stack cap in place.

I think the main issue condi doesn’t work that well is because it’s balanced towards pvp. 25 stacks of bleed on a boss is trivial while it is lethal on a player.

What they really need to do is either raise the cap for pve mobs or separate the instances of damaging conditions such that each player inflicting conditions on a boss has their own stack of up to 25 bleeds for example. Limit this to only damaging conditions of course so that people won’t stack 1000 stacks of vulnerability and kill bosses in seconds. This is just a rough estimate of what might be a solution to boost condition in pve. Obviously it can be tweaked to be more balanced. Either way since condition builds are very good in WVW and PVP it’s not as if it doesn’t have it’s place even if it were never to be an optimal pve build.

It doesn’t really matter anyway since in pve dungeons people don’t really care even if you use a condition build. Maybe 1% of all groups in dungeon runs demand “full zerk build”.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the difficulty on enemies went up, some people would switch away from Zerker. Statistically speaking, they may be an insignificant portion, but it would still be a drop. I never said that some who can’t run zerker now would run zerker later. I said some who can run zerker now could not run zerker later.

And not all mobs in dungeons are skippable, so it’s quite possible adding Retaliation would make a difference. The impact of any change depends greatly on where the change is made as well as what the change is.

Not meaning to offend but are you new to MMOs or something?

Making content harder is not going to make people switch over to zerker. It’s going to make zerker even more important. It will make elitism go through the roof and gear checks the norm. Unless you specifically change content to nerf zerker somehow, which just means the next best thing become the new meta and few months later you end up back here complaining about that meta build. It’s an needless and endless cycle.

Any kind of elevation of difficulty naturally leads to these types of results. I’ve been playing MMOs since EQ original and this is the one trend that is consistent in all MMOS that raise difficulty in that way and it’s corrosive to the player community and discourages pugs.

You either have not thought out the consequences of your ideas or your analysis is flawed as many people in this post as well as myself have demonstrated.

Tribio.8531:

Hey all,

It might have been mentioned on these forums before, but the state-of-the-art search function didn’t yield any results, so here it goes..

Is it wrong to assume that, once you hit 100% Magic Find, that every item that drops for you should be like, you know, Magic?
Or is the MF implementation done on another way?

Checking, since at 150% MF I still get tons of whites (not magic at all)

150% of a small base percentage is still small.

Jerus.4350:

Bubi.7942:

And that brings us back to page 2 of this thread (or somewhere around there), that gear doesn’t matter, cause PvE is supereasy.

As opposed to sPVP where you’re rewarded for failing, or WvW where you’re rewarded for gathering in a giant blob or not at all. Sure, PVE is pretty easy if you’re just trying to complete it, but at least you have to be successful and in dungeons/fractals your contribution matters has a pretty large impact. In general i think it would be fair to say that GW2 is supereasy.

Your understanding of how WvW works is overly simplistic and basically wrong unless you spend all your time in EOTM.

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Also you don’t get to speak for other people because there’s no evidence they actually think that way and there’s no way to confirm your claim.

But you do? Oh, the irony.

Note I never claimed to speak for other people. So you apparently don’t know what irony, or a strawman argument means.

Windsagio.1340:

DeathPanel.8362:

Bubi.7942:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

There’s a obsessive/compulsive element in what you’re saying that is valuable for designers to consider, but it’s not even remotely an universal attitude (and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that people fled other MMOs to GW2 in order to escape that feeling), and it’s an extremely destructive way to design a game, to feed that attitude.

That incentive structure is simply how MMOs work and GW2 is no different. MMOs are all based on rewards and loots and not on the PVE gameplay. PVE gameplay is basically a time sink to make people waste time in order to achieve the loots and rewards.

Replayability is strongest in pvp/wvw because it’s always unique against other humans rather than a predicable AI and the same exact encounters 1000x times over. The replayability of pvp is why games like LoL, DOTA2, Smite, and COD/BF4/CSGO are so popular and played so much.

Astralporing.1957:

do you have a reading comprehension problem? I just stated, that most players in my guild are neither new nor “relatively” new. How did you get out of this something exactly opposite?

I get it that people like us do not fit into your worldview, but this doesn’t mean we don’t exist.

Never said fringe cases don’t exist. The point is changes shouldn’t be done to the system to cater to the fringe cases but rather to the majority of the player base.

Also you don’t get to speak for other people because there’s no evidence they actually think that way and there’s no way to confirm your claim.

Bubi.7942:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

Wyrden.4713:

they said they rework the skills applying stability, so that skills apply more stacks of stability i guess

No matter how many stacks it applies it no longer stacks in duration and so is by definition worse than the old system where your stability negates all cc and can be stacked in duration.

Shiki.7148:

Taken From Angry Joes interview. Colin said the following:

“We’re also going back and looking at each profession and making adjustments to them, changing skills, rebalancing them.”

5 bucks say they kitten it up. Again.

Do you agree/disagree? What changes would you like to see to Necromancer (Skills/Traits, Cattimes/Aftercast-delay/Bugfixes/Cooldowns…) ?

“Looking into” is synonymous with “nerf” when it comes to ANET.

DevilishLyx.2340:

Knighthonor.4061:

People that don’t buy HoT can still play the new map, but certain features will be locked out of using.

So pay-to-win.

Sorry but anet does not deserve a penny more from me until they put in the effort to update WvW. This one map and changes to the current map are not enough for me to warrant spending anything on it!
As a WvW only player, I dont want my money spent on a Chinese release, Living Story and a expansion which is barely enough to be considered an expansion.
Prove to me that WvW will get a half, even a quarter of what PvE gets, and then I may consider investing more in this game!

But those are just my current feelings.

Pay to win is having an advantage from spending money in a game. There’s no evidence that any features are going to be locked in wvw in the new map from the dev streams and interviews aside from access to the new class. The new class is however new content and you should be paying for it and it is obviously going to be balanced towards other classes so even if you don’t have it the new class won’t have an artificial advantage over you.

Ragion.2831:

The whole business surrounding the black wings had me thinking about the effect of exclusivity in gw2. Personally i have no issues with how Anet handled the sales time, it was so short that it forced people who didn’t have enough gold to convert to gems (since they wont gain from gold farms), to buy using real money while simultaneously encouraging people to check into the game more often (at least the website) because that encourages people to play.

At the heart of every mmorpg playerbase, standing out is important. In the beginning, people complained about no healer because that means not being recognized for helping someone else. People complain about precursor drop rates not for the stats but because the legendaries are so much shinier than other weapons. Since we play with millions of other people, its human nature to want to be different.

So what is the point of this thread? two things, to remind the people smacking Anet for the time frame to remember that exclusivity is pretty important in a game like this. Sadly it means that some people will miss out. You might have missed the sale today but you might get the next one and the wing bearers today might miss that one.

The second is i’m all for occasional 1 day special item sales, i may miss some of them, but I welcome the idea that i have items that very few people have, it makes the game a lot more interesting and i’m wondering if other people feel the same.

In MMOs with micro-transactions a majority of the revenue typically comes from only a small part of the player base that spends a relatively large amount of money compared with others. It’s these players that tend to check the gem store very often and it’s these players that often make impulse buys based on “limited sales”.

Therefore what ANET has done is exactly the right thing to maximize profits.

Probably either a bug or the heal itself is scaled down such that 2 heals are roughly equal to 1 normal heal.

If true I hope the bow is a condi based weapon to round out guardian builds. Currently guardians don’t have any dedicated condi weapons.

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

My guild is full of such people, and all of them play for longer than 2 weeks. In most cases way longer. Do not think that every player in this game is the same as you (or even that most are).

Sure that’s what you claim now when you are new or relatively new. But get anyone to repeat the same pve content 1000+ times and see what happens. I got 24 characters all of which I’ve run through the pve dungeons and fractals at around 3000 hours for my account. You play the same pve content long enough you want it to end as soon as possible because it’s the same exact encounters each and every time against poor AI controlled mobs. The bottom line is pve is simply not that replayable no matter how you try to tweak it in this game unless you come out with randomly generated dungeon maps which given this engine is near impossible. And what that other guy suggests to force different team setups would just make things even slower and more annoying.

The only replayability in this game is in the pvp and wvw modes because fighting against single or teams of players are unique and different almost every time. The problem is the best way to gear up to optimal builds in wvw you must farm monotonous pve content.

guardian.6489:

DeathPanel.8362:

Knighthonor.4061:

Do any of you believe Raids Dungeons are coming in HoT?

Speculation?

I am going over the AngryJoe interview, and get that vibe that Raids are coming.

No. The guy in Joe’s interview specifically stated that there are no raids planned.

He specifically said he couldn’t talk about what they had planned just there would be “Challenging Group Content”.

Colin didn’t deny any Raids.

You’re right. I got that mixed up with when he denied new races in the future.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I haven’t seen a thread dedicated to a Revenant weapons wishlist for those that haven’t been revealed yet so I thought I’d add one (either that or Search has failed me again).

What weapons do you want to see on a Revenant? You can also discuss why you’d like them if you want, whether they’re for asthetics or practicality, or whatever your reasoning.

My personal:
1. Greatsword: This weapon just makes sense on a heavy armorer. Also, weapons like Eternity almost breath Revenant! GS is also my favorite.
2. Sword (Main and Offhand): Dual swords have got to be the next in line for my favorite look.
3. Dagger (Main and Offhand): Same as #2.
4. Longbow: Same as #3.

As you can tell, I’m a huge blade fanatic. I especially hope my #1 and #2 make it to the “cut.”

Anyways, what’s on your wish list?

I think they said staff will be a weapon somewhere and that it will be melee oriented. I could be wrong.

Knighthonor.4061:

Do any of you believe Raids Dungeons are coming in HoT?

Speculation?

I am going over the AngryJoe interview, and get that vibe that Raids are coming.

No. The guy in Joe’s interview specifically stated that there are no raids planned.

Louis.7914:

the newest Wyvern video link (Boss battle 18min )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXkD-vrUawo

I think , that the boss is still too easy.

suggestion
Boss must have 2 phases , normal and violent.
higher damage ,higher speed, new attack mode in violent phase.
After the defiance bar is fully depleted and the creature becomes broken, boss will become violent.

It’s just a minor boss. It’s not supposed to be hard. The dev stated in the stream this should be a 5 man event.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All right then, what sort of evidence would convince you? Anything on this topic is going to be subject to opinion of players, so numerical data is exceedingly difficult to come by. Here is what is true: variety is good for a game, and we currently don’t have variety in dungeons.

There are different levels of evidence required for different kind of proofs. However in this case you’ve failed to even demonstrate a good argument much less any data so…

Wrong. You have called for making content changes such that some fights are better optimally done with other build types and that means that the old build optimal build is no longer as effective, which is by definition a nerf.

Sooo, because gear X is optimal in content A, if content B comes out later, gear X needs to be the optimal choice there as well, as anything else would be a “nerf?”

Wrong again. You’re arguing for changing existing content based on existing gear so your new content argument is invalid.

Actually, I see three people including yourself (I think it’s 3, one poster is difficult to read due to lack of punctuation and spelling) who don’t share my opinion and quite a few more that do.

Actually I see you are the only one that espouses this line of reasoning. All the others argue for buffing other builds to be equally optimal which I actually support.

Because doing so would mean a net increase in frustration and decrease in fun for those using single dedicated dungeon runners with a single build because they’d have to change characters or gear. I’ve already stated this no less than 3 times yet you chose to ignore it. You are artificially introducing unneeded complexity into a system with no tangible benefit.

So in other words, because you personally don’t want to get a second set of gear. Thanks for confirming you don’t have any other reason.

You just recycled your old debunked drivel again here without addressing my argument yet ironically at the same time you just admitted you’re wrong with your own words.

Making someone get a second set of gear to experience the same old content they used to do is inflicting unnecessary tedium upon them without any benefit. Thanks for admitting I’m right.

Lol are you serious? In the beginning of the paragraph you say you are not the sole arbiter of what things are supposed to be, yet by the end of the paragraph you say ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are Supposed to be. That by definition is a self contradiction because by stating that you implicitly mean that you know how things are supposed to be. Those are YOUR words.

Are you being intentionally dense here? I’m thinking so, because the examples I gave were paraphrases of quotes from ANet.

Apparently you don’t know what irony is. The quotes I took were specifically your own words. I never quoted anything you cited from ANET. You are the one ironically intentionally being dense to avoid taking responsibility for your self contradiction. Anyone can look at your post and see that. You show dishonesty once again.

Unnecessary code is bad coding, yes. New content, though, requires new code, so it would not be “unnecessary.” Artificially creating situations would be things along the lines of “this random enemy negates crit damage,” or “you can’t heal in this fight.” Things that arbitrarily negate core aspects or are immune to strengths of builds. Not “this enemy takes reduced damage due to high armor” or “this encounter isn’t focused around DPS.”

Common sense comes in that variety in content is good for a game, so if there is an area without variety, that area should be changed up when possible in order to improve the game.

Existing dungeons are not new content. That was part of the scope of your discussion. Therefore changing the existing dungeons according to your ideas would result in artificially creating situations to require builds that didn’t exist before.

Also I need to mention, the idea of “common sense” is frankly non-sense, pun intended. If you knew anything about logic you’d know that “common sense” is terrible for reaching a logical conclusion. Yet you throw this term out as if it’s a good way to reach a conclusion. Hint, it’s not.

“Common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down by the mind before you reach eighteen.” -Albert Einstein

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.