Guild Wars 2

Khenzy.9348:

^What? I just read the updated patch notes, I didn’t know about the cantrips+vigor boon nerfs. Now, that’s something that could add up.

Yeah, it’s worth testing out how all those little changes add up. Unfortunately, I can’t test it on my ele right now, but in theory, bunker/ aura eles should remain equally strong short-term, but they should have a harder time to maintain their boons once the auras and the cantrips are under cooldowns. This should open up more opportunities to burst down those builds, and demand better timing from the ele players themselves.

I disagree, Shocking Aura’s 10s boon duration was huge. Do not forget that it has a cooldown of 25, while Frost Aura has a cooldown of 40s. Shocking Aura was always the best of the two, especially when shared to the party with +50% boon duration stats. That was 15s every 25, and should now be 8-9s every 25s. And considering that both auras are now more restricted when it comes to their main effects, a 10% damage reduction for 5s every 40 is just a small compensation.

Also, eles can no longer stack vigor with their critical trait, which now has a 5s internal cooldown. The old auramancers could get 5s of vigor out of that trait two, three or more times very fast with multi-hit attacks while having an almost never-ending supply of fury from shocking aura. Now with fury lasting less and the trait having an internal cooldown, auramancers who want maintain vigor reliably will have to invest in more precision and spend more on offensive attacks, at the expense of their usual defense for long-term encounters.

Even their vigor and regen boons from cantrips has been almost halved. They should still be able to use their cantrips to get back the vigor they need, but their boon sustain has definitely been toned down.

Seems like Renewed Stamina has an internal coldown of 5s. So critical-eles should no longer stack vigor this way.

Khalic.3561:

So I finally got patched up and in game… Really annoyed they changed renewing stamina. I see WHY they did it, but it’s kinda brutal for non-bunker D/D.

EDIT: You can now only receive vigor every 5s.

They have made similar changes to mesmer’s /guardian’s (?) traits a few months ago, and I was honestly expecting it for renewing stamina sooner or later.

I think the bs/ hs build should be harder to play, and not exactly nerfed. Huge damage while stealthed and a spammable it-does-everything-for-you #2 skill makes for a mindless build.

Make it harder to play with, and hotjoin should become more balanced.

Frost Aura’s chill was also nerfed (can only be activated once per second), shocking aura’s stun can only be applied to each target every 2 seconds now, and shocking aura no longer gives 10s of fury and swiftness from a trait (it now only gives 5s). So Auramancer elementalists have gotten a slight nerf overall, even taking into account the 10% reduced damage for frost aura.

The two following changes were not posted in the patch notes, but Soothing Disruption and Zephyr’s Boon have been nerfed and fixed respectively. Those two were pretty big at giving a lot of vigor, regen, swiftness and fury to bunker eles. Evasive Arcana’s water nerf only affects builds with a lot of healing power (bunkers). And Frost Aura’s defensive boost is general, much like how RTL’s nerf is too.

Yeah, bunker builds have lost some of their sustain. Was it enough? I’m not sure, but it’s clear they have been hit the most.

Meanwhile, yay focus love. Well, just a little. Fire focus is probably still underpowered – I think devs were way too tame with it, and I’m hoping for them to push it up even more in the next patch.

Vayra.3290:

Frost Aura got a buff, it didn’t have any dmg reduction component before 2.2 afaik.

It also chills less often, when you’re targetted by multi-hit attacks.

At least we know, from the other threads, that the bunker ele was actually toned down. The regen and the vigor from cantrips was decreased almost to half of their original duration. It’s worth testing the sustain of bunker eles at the moment, to see how much of a difference it makes. Auramancers were also re-balanced, with the zephyr’s boon bug fixed for shocking aura, and frost aura getting both a nerf and a buff at the same time.

Razor.6392:

I can’t believe this lol. The infamous bunker spec and aurashare are now more powerful, and every other spec has been nerfed indirectly thanks to the RtL changes.

Way to deal with the root of the problem ANet!

EA’s healing scales for less, soothing disruption’s boons went from 9s to 5s, and shocking aura’s boons from the zephyr trait have been halved from 10s(?) to 5s. Frost Aura is less effective against multiple-hit attacks, but more effective in general play, and Flame Aura is potentially an option now.

I would like to see how you think they are stronger.

RTL is a crazy versatile skill. It’s a great dash, a great speed boost and a great escape tool. By increasing its cooldown, the skill as a whole has been nerfed, but its individual effects are still effective and impressive. So I think this is a well-thought nerf.

Finally. I always felt like the air elementals were placeholders left forgotten by Anet’s artists and modelers. Using lightning for scorpion/ spiker like legs is also pretty cool.

As a pvp player, I’ve been defending a nerf to soothing disruption and a fix to shocking aura’s zephyr boon bug as the way to go to nerf bunker eles. Those traits were too strong, and almost mandatory for any build, bunker or not. Cool that the devs thought the same.

The nerfs to RTL and EA were smart. RTL is a crazy versatile skill (movement, escape, leap), and some people’s suggestions to nerf it in the pvp thread were terrible. Making it less available is a good way to nerf it without ruining it. EA’s nerf only affects pvp, and only affects builds with healing investment, which is fair, IMO.

Excited to see what other dagger and scepter changes were made.

I can see nerfs to shocking aura, EA’s water and RTL, but having RTL require a target would ruin the skill. It makes no sense, and people who usually suggest that do not play or understand what is to be an elementalist. I can see RTL getting a higher cooldown, or even having its range being decreased, but the target requirement would make RTL completely useless at what is good at: as an escape skill, and as a movement skill. Elementalists already have leaps with their burning speed and MH Dagger’s earth #3. Transforming one of their most iconic skills into a third, weaker leap skill would be a terrible change.

Faeyd.5094:

Don’t touch hotjoin please. It’s where you roll a glass canon and go smash faces for stress relief. It’s awesome. Sometimes I don’t want to hop into TS and play at medieval navy seals. I just want to have my own thoughts while I smush people.

The tournament and hotjoin games are completely different and require completely different mentalities and skills. It’s fine having two different PvP games.

These new changes look awesome though. Should bring a lot more people in.

I still think hotjoin should be “polished”, though. :P 8v8 is unfair compared to 5v5, because it’s much easier to farm glory there, especially by spamming AoE. Change the way glory is rewarded, and maybe have it scale down in 8v8, so that your average player does not get more glory in 8v8 than in 5v5, and it should get better. And, IMO, 6v6 matches can potentially work better than both 5v5 and 8v8 in hotjoin.

Oh, I only noticed now that there was a new blog post.

So, devs have decided to “scrap” entirely the tournament tickets and the QPs? I think it’s a nice decision, considering the new changes. It’ll clean things up. QPs had a bad start, with a few “best” players farming them without any kind of matchmaking, while the community as a whole not being very interested in them.

Will you still get tournament tickets from dailies/ monthlies? It feels like devs want players to clean their inventory out of all tickets they have.

And will the Match Win Chest rewards be fixed? The problem with tourney chests, is that their rewards do not scale with player’s glory rank. But will the 3-round tourneys still have the old chests? Or will they have the paid tournament chests?

There’s a few questions that need to be answered, but overall, it feels like a nice change to me.

According to devs, if I’m not wrong, should you join in a random team, the matchmaking will try to put you against another random team, but if none is available, it’ll search for a duo premade, then a 3-man premade, etc, all the way to full premade. So the possibility to exist solo vs premade is there, but will only happen occasionally.

I think free tourneys should be single rounds like paids. Leave the multiple round thing to a weekly/ monthly tournament system. It just makes the most sense with the matchmaking system, I think. Hope the devs have it as a plan B.

Hardcore players will use the future custom servers to train themselves, rather than join the zerg pugs. :P Hotjoin should be fine if 8v8 is removed and glory rewards adjusted. Both changes should prevent hotjoin from being a mindless glory farm, and prepare players better for what truly is pvp in GW2. 8v8 should only exist if devs ever decide to make a 8v8 map for casual play.

mongolianmisfit.8350:

Okay. Like I said, temp changes = balance?

Oh, I thought you were talking about the might trait, that was overbuffed and allowed Mesmers to stack 9-18s of might very easily. That trait was then nerfed only a few days after its buff.

Locust.2365:

What do we get then actually, except the map?

We’ll get Team Rating, with teams facing other teams of similar skill level and, if/ whenever possible, it will match premades with premades, randoms with randoms, and anything inbetween.

And probably more balance changes.

mongolianmisfit.8350:

Just like the gimp hot fix to the mesmer might stack bug, they will probably temp change a few things on eles and thieves and maybe rangers, so people stop whining…..only to just kitten more people off.

The might-stacking was not a bug, it was an over-buffed trait. The hot fix was deserved, imo.

I haven’t seen terrible balancing done for eles since release, to be honest. Staff builds were good because of the old Evasive Arcana? Yes, but that’s because the old EA was beyond broken. The old EA needed to be fixed. If staff builds are no longer useful because of a broken trait, then the problem lies on the weapon itself.

So far, Anet has polished our MH Dagger and OH Dagger skills to near perfection. There’s almost no underpowered skill left in either of them, one or two possible exceptions aside. Now, all they need to do is to repeat the same for the remaining options.

Scepter is probably the easiest to make buffs for at the moment. The fire and air lines are strong, and so is Water Trident (which will probably even get a nerf) and earth’s auto-attack. That leaves them 2 skills from water and 2 skills from earth to make them more appealing.

wintermute.4096:

Like you solved the precursor problem with the scavenger hunt?

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. The scavenger hunt is being designed. The fact that it is taking this long to design shows that they are willing to make a pretty big feature out of this. What do you exactly want? For them to rush in and release it as an unpolished, buggy kitten?

The improved matchmaking and the new map, as advertised, and for March’s update, hopefully, the custom arenas and the spectator mode, as we know that’s what the devs are currently working on.

I’m also interested in seeing how much the new map might refresh upon the conquest experience. Lord and buffs from other pvp maps made conquest more interesting, but they did not make it more refreshing. However, from what I’ve read so far, the new CTF objective seems to be very relevant, considering that it’s at the middle of the map, doesn’t requires you to wait much time for it to be available each time, and that it can disable entire points regardless of bunker builds. Something tells me that this new map has the most potential for interesting team mobility (which conquest always wants to achieve) and a few refreshing, different gameplay experiences fãnd builds around the “flag”.

We know the new map and the improved matchmaking system are coming this patch. I wouldn’t expect any other big features for now.

We’ll also get balance fixes, I think? We know devs are toning down ele bunkers, toning down aoes and buffing underused weapon sets/ options. I’d expect the former and the later (something tells me that the aoe nerfs is going to require a lot of testing and are not ready yet to be patched).

I’m excited for some deserved nerfs to come in and improve the current meta; excited to watch the pvp community explode with hyperbole and cry out loud about 2-3 “totally unfair” nerfs; and excited about any buffs that they said they would make to underused skills, to see how they change and improve the meta, all the while the pvp forum community ignoring them in the midst of their massive black hole of whining. :P

And the new pvp map too.

EDIT: Oh, and I like pvp surprises, btw. They are more refreshing this way.

I’ve played Random Arenas a lot, but let’s be honest, it’s barely better than the current hotjoin meta.

When people look at the past, they always remember the best things out of their memory, and ignore the worse.

RA was fast to join, and when you got a good party, it required skill and was very fun. This is comparable to the current GW2’s pvp situation, where it’s fast to join matches, and where you need skill (for 1v1) at least. Sure, glory rewards and 8v8 promote zerging, and conquest isn’t the best mode out there for pugs, but I’d say that by revamping the way glory points are awarded and putting the 5v5 maps first on the list, and we’ll get decent “teamplay” in hotjoin as well.

Now, let’s look at the big problem with RA: 1) The existence of a class that was mandatory meant that you had to resign over and over and waste your time until you got a “monk team”. This could take as fast as 5 minutes, or as long as 1 hour. Interestingly, RA would work much better in GW2 than it does in GW1. Especially because the Monk problem created new ones: 2) If you lost against another good team, you would have to “wait” for an optimal team again; 3) Until you got to fight a good team, you would mindlessly farm no-monk teams (so as you can see, it’s not a sole problem with GW2);

So we can praise RA our of our memory, but I’ve tried to play it a few times since I’ve gotten GW2 (to experiment the new fluxes and the elementalist update), and matter of fact is, to get any fun out of it, you have to test your patience and go through a tedious process every time.

Keep watching as the Living Story develops. Let us know what you think about the writing, character development, and VO.

Is the Living Story missable? For example, can I do it one or two months after it started, and even go as far as “replay” it alongside a new buddy in one year or two; or is it like a one time only event chain stretched through several weeks?

I agree we should get more information about this from the devs. My bet is that it’ll be the big feature for March’s update, maybe because they didn’t get in time to implement it this month. That, or they decided to priotize fair matchmaking over custom arenas, which is acceptable too, imo.

I remember devs justified the lack of nightmarish illusions because it would make things too confusing, but to be honest, I don’t see how. What’s the difference between nightmarish illusions and ele’s elementals and necro’s minions? How would it make things more confusing?

Miragee.3604:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

That seems pretty unlikely. There are several reasons, one of which is that it would hurt clarity. You’d no longer be able to glance at a guy in heavy armor and immediately he’s a warrior or a guardian.

Clarity is already hurt by making only 3 armor types rather than one for each profession.

I would love for profession-specific gear, but I guess it’s unlikely too.

I’m glad interrupts are not as available as in GW1, however, I think GW2’s rupts suffer from lack of support, maybe because of the lack of caster bars.

I think that is simply a Warrior being tormented by a Mesmer’s illusion.

On a sidenote, it’s a pity that the idea of illusions with unique visuals was scrapped. It would have made the Mesmer far more appealing to some.

And considering how staff eles are already strong in wvw, giving them their own line of warding would be crazy and obsolete staff guardian’s.

And because devs decided for the earth’s skills to be combo finishers instead of combo fields, let’s be creative here:
- Unsteady Ground would be a chained skill. If you activate it the second time, the ground would blow for a blast finisher and some damage (and launching foes to all directions? xD).

Or we can simply go the GW1’s UG route: have it apply damage each time it connects.

But for simplicity’s sake, increasing the cripple duration to 3 from 2 could be enough, if we want to keep the tactical combinations with other immobilize skills. Or if we simply want the skill to be more immediate at stopping movement, without needing any combination (after all, you’re blocking the kittening road, right?), then have it just give a 4-6s or more of non-stackable cripple. Pass it through once, and the full effect activates.

But in order to make its flavor make as much sense as possible (shouldn’t an unsteady ground KD people, really?), have it connect cripple as it normall does, and KD ONLY at the end of the skill. Meaning no one would be KDed if they could leave it.

I always disliked the idea of making the conjures the elementalist’s fifth glyph: all conjures in one skill that would change depending on the attunement. It would honestly be a big mess. I mean, a skill that grants 20 skills? Besides being impossible to balance, it could even be a drawback, because it would force you to be in a specific attunement to use the conjure that would most fit your build. Might not be very noticeable now, but the day conjures get good, we’ll probably considerate each one of them for their own, specific build.

Multiple 1-round tournaments seems the more natural solution to me, although I suppose that could divide the community too much?

What about, alongside that, an option to be randomly placed in one of those 1-round tourneys? You know, instead of joining a round that would have a random map, you would randomly join one of the multiple rounds with fixed maps. Does the current system support that?

This would have almost the same effect as a single tourney round with randomized maps, with the the exception that, in a randommized tourney round, a team build that entered solely for a single map, and was designed specifically for that map, would have an advantage over any team that would randomly join for that round. But, supposing that it would be much quicker to implement/ code, it could be a decent placeholder until a real random map tourney is implemented.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

The only way to fix conjures is to make them work as a secondary weapon set while in effect, allowing the Elementalist to swap between them and his regular weapon.

Conjures will be gimmicky at best as long as they lock the Elementalist out of their core functionality.

The idea of sacrificing versatility to specialize on something for a few seconds is actually appealing and not-gimmicky. The problem is that conjures can’t do that. Frost Bow is not very good at specializing as a ranged weapon: it has only 900 range and does not offer enough damage or healing. Hammer is not very good at keeping the target on your toes and beating them down, because it lacks damage and requires a glassy ele to not move much. The shield is not very good at defending, because it lacks what the cantrips are so good at for defense: instant speed and stun-breaking.

(I’m not sure what’s the purpose of the axe, nor why an ele would need it, and the greatsword is “almost there” for some heavy ranged artillery).

Make conjure weapons good at what they specialize for, and players will gladly sacrifice, for a few seconds, their versatility to acchieve a specific goal. This would lead to interesting tactics and risk-reward situations: not gimmicky at all.

First, conjures need to be at exotic level, which they were supposed to in the last patch, I think, but it’s bugged. Then, they need to have some of their skills improved, like the crappy air storm from the hammer or the crappy auto-attack from the bow. And finally, some funcitonality tweaks, like an instant-cast shield or a 1200 range bow.

Then we can see bunker eles with shields (or even glass cannon eles), we can see the staff eles with some strong single-target options every once in a while, and we can see dagger eles with good range. Spending versatility for a few seconds, and an utility slot, to cover your holes, it worth it, imo, and in a way, it only makes eles even more versatile. I do think conjures have a lot of potencial to be pretty big, but it also depends on the devs, and if they are willing to make conjures relevant to battle tactics, or if they don’t want from them anything more than a casual and gimmick option.

Static Field is strong as it is. It does its purpose well, and is still a combo field, so your allies can even rupt foes within it.

I enjoy the idea of Unsteady Ground working like Guardian’s wards, but I suppose the devs thought it would make eles too strong and/ or take away the uniqueness out of Guardians. I do not mind the current implementation, but it should be stronger: 3s, for a start. The number can stack pretty high this way, though. Or a non-stackable, immediate 4s or more of a cripple effect. Or even a immobilize, but the most logical idea is simply its original. The ground is unsteady so you get KDed. Lol.

The idea of Shatterstone requiring dodging already justifies its nerf, even if the skill is not good enough at the moment. Spamming something that forces people to waste their dodges over and over does not seems fair to me. In fact, it’s outright mindless.

I think Gale’s change might be due to be very unfun to play against. It’s a ranged KD that’s hard to counter. I wouldn’t decrease its cooldown neither, for the same reason. However, I wouldn’t mind if it did something else in addition to it. Maybe working as a combo finisher, for a unique ring of fire + dt and phoenix + gale combo? I suppose devs want to keep the skill elegantly simple, though.

Honestly, even veteran’s loot is just not exciting. I mean, more chances to get more of the same you’ve been getting from killing countless non-veteran mobs? I think it’s the veterans that should always offer loot (make them slightly harder if needed), and that champions should have fat, satisfying rewards.

And if the devs think it’snot a good idea to have champions always drop green or better items? Then I agree with whoever says that there should exist new mechanics for champions alone: like, for example, having them drop tokens. However, I don’t want to see GW2 to be filled with countless token systems (it would make things confusing), plus they do not offer the satisfaction of getting a new shiny, rare sword, in this specific case.

Another idea, is to have the game calculate the last time a rare item was dropped for you froma champion, and have the chance for rare loot increase with time, but only for champions. Or, instead of time, by the number of champions killed. Or both. Or alternatively, have some kind of system where killing champions would have healthy chances for rare drops, but only for a few times each time period. This way, grinding champions wouldn’t flood the market with rares (too much). Or… I don’t know. A system similar to GW1’s zaishen quests that makes you go hunting champions for token rewards? I guess the new dailies might already do that function.

Regardless, I think GW2 should have something more than the current systems, to make people to seriously party themselves and search and fight champions everywhere. This would fill a big hole with GW2’s lack of a challenging party-driven content. There’s already dungeons for that, and guild missions will probably fill that hole big time, normal events are mostly casual easy, and for general explorable pve, all that’s left is the champions you get to meet once in a while.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Hey guys, this is your resident forum engineer player. Since so few people have ever played an engineer, I’ve volunteered to come to the forums and explain what engineer skills actually do.

An engineer’s med kit can drop three bandages, each with a 12 second cooldown (or 15 if you trait for it…yeah, our traits are that good!) Each bandage heals for base 1000 health, with a .5 healing power scaling. So with 3000 healing power, each bandage would heal for 2.5k (yes, I know that’s impossible…) Each bandage is single target and takes a little over a half second to drop.

In other words, as an ele player, yes, our healing is too strong. Water Trident (if using Scepter) + Cleansing Wave + Water Attunement + Evasive Arcana’s Cleansing Wave + perma regen. That’s about 8-10k healing, without taking into account the regen boon nor the water attunement passive heal trait, and is all done in very few seconds (switch to water attunement → cast your heals and dodge). EA’s cooldown is 10s, Water Attunement’s cooldown is about 10s too, Water Trident (if using) is close to 20s, dagger’s 5th is the only one with a high cooldown. And if that counts, bunker eles also stack vigor, for more healing dodges, might stack protection, and usually have high natural toughness.

That’s why you see their HP “resetting” so many times.

When a profession is too strong, people want it to be nerfed at every single little thing that makes them strong. In this case, heal, mobility, cantrips, etc. But that’s terrible suggestion, because all classes are meant to have some strong points: if an ele loses all of them, it would become useless.

First, we have to understand which eles are currently too strong: the bunker builds. Other eles actually have a hard time to be at top teams, especially burst eles, which have a hard time hitting anyone, have the least defense of all professions, lack stealth or clones, etc. In fact, burst eles actually need a buff.

Outside of the general aoe problem, bunker eles do their job fine at mantaining a point, but they have a little something that makes them too strong: their sustain never ends. That’s because Eles can outlast the recharges of their own skills: that means that if you couldn’t kill them at that point, chances are, you won’t ever kill them unless the situation is changed to your favor.

I agree that their healing skills should be weaker (but not the base healing power, IMO), and I would probably suggest toning down some of their boons. Some of their traits offer more than 3 seconds of protection, if I’m not wrong, and they have a lot of ways to maintain protection. And I would probably tone down the vigor/ regen of their cantrip trait from 9s to 6s, as well as change how boons are stacked through runes. This change should make it harder for eles to get back to full health, and should incentivate them to only activate specific boons at the right moment, instead of mindlessly stacking them.

I believe devs have also said that eles need more counters? IMO, that’s more important than nerfing their sustain. Boon removal is restricted to a few builds, and we don’t see many meta builds with a good “sustain” of movement-control skills. Even bunker eles at their current state are very frail when they get hit by a backstab/ HB/ etc.

xiv.7136:

It’s obvious RTL range is being decreased to 600 and only works on target so it’s not an issue

This would completely ruin the skill, you know.

Ele will certainly be one of the best: it’s excellent at mobility. Thieves and Mesmers won’t have access to their stealth and teleports, and I’m not sure if mesmer’s clones can trick the opponent into anything, so they’ll probably be the worst at carrying the orb. I don’t know enough about other classes.

However, at stopping the carrier, staff eles and ward guardians might do a pretty good job, rangers will probably have more opportunity to hit their backs with the shortbow, and I suppose thieves and mesmers fast bursts will be requested. I can see portal getting used to get a newly respawed orb fast, or even among “bunker” mesmers to prevent carriers from approaching the shrines and neutralizing it. And certainly, stealth will be valuable to spike fast a carrier. But I do know that any burst ele will be horrible against a moving carrier.

When it comes to party support, I can see guardians actually guarding their allies with their bubbles. Ele auramancers should also be valuable with their aoe stun and frost auras that apply protection.

But again, I’m not sure about the others, as I barely have any experience with the remaining classes.

But you see, the nature of hotjoin is that people are free to make a quick, random match and leave whenever they want or need. Although I agree there should be a way to enforce rules for afk, and maybe there will for the custom arenas, who knows, those rules do not make much sense in hotjoin or else it would stop being hotjoin. So, I do think that the best attempt at doing 5v5 in hotjoin, is making it 6v6 there, to take into account the few users that are always coming and going. And, of course, making it first in the listed servers.

Maybe the 40% movement decrease will affect RtL? It would make sense, because it felt like the dev was very confident about how the movement skills were tested internally.

But RtL wil be affected by the 40% movement decrease, right? This seems like the most logical choice, and I’m an ele.

I understand people want more game modes, but I wouldn’t downplay every new map just because it has conquest in it.

The new map seems fun and refreshing enough, and that’s exciting to me. I actually feel that the conquest mode could work well here.

Think of the potential: what’s the good of an unbeatable bunker build, if a random orb carrier can just go to that point and neutralize it? (Yes, yes, current bunker eles can probably do both very well, but that’s a balance issue that should get fixed). Not to mention that, in addition to carrier builds, we might also get to see more crowd control and party support builds.

I think conquest is funnier when there’s a lot of movement, but boring when it denegerates to 2-3 bunkers tanking a point until a match ends. Khylo’s secondary mechanics are already nice at shaking this up, and this new map should have plenty of extra movement to make it fun and strategic too.

The 5v5 format does not work in hotjoin at all. That’s because there’s always people leaving, making it 4v4 or 3v3 a lot of time. I’d say that 6v6 would work better than both 8v8 and 5v5, due to the nature of hotjoin.

Thedenofsin.7340:

It’s making skillseeker thieves look well-designed in comparison.

I think you meant “balanced” instead of “well-designed”. :P Bunker eles might be more OP than thieves at the moment, but they have no single skill that is as cheap and easy to play as heartseeker.