Guild Wars 2

lorddarkflare.9186:

OP: I have been designing a similar build except I am a PvP noob so I made some different decisions. Like using Rampagers and inventions.

Question – Why Carrion? Why prefer Vitality over toughness?

I use Carrion because it allows me to deal with conditions a lot better and I depend on my reflexes and defensive cooldowns when going up against burst classes. You can use Rabid or even Settler’s. Settler’s works really well because of the boost in healing as well. And if you run Rabid, you should probably switch out Sigil of Intelligence for something else.

Peutrifectus.4830:

Dirame.8521:

I don’t actually use the jet all that much unless the target is low or I’ve unloaded a lot of conditions and there’s nothing else to apply so auto-attacking is all that’s left. But that said, with burning stacking now, the auto is definitely a lot better.

This similar to a build Ive used only I went into inventions for the protection uptime, shield cooldowns, legs and bunker down. I found flame jet to be really useful with target lock as an aoe revealer on demand.

Started using rampager with melandru runes now though… The stun reduction is useful atm… There seems to be a lot of it around atm.

With p/s I’ve been more a fan of heavy armour exploit… With 60-90 crit chance the vulnerability and bleeds stack up quick with flame blast :evilgrin:

There you go.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-ZRw;2cPVv0f6NQFx0;9;4jlk;0138156057;4aw0;3TsW6TsW67Y

I’ve tested inventions before, definitely more survivable but I felt the lack of constant pressure and the ability to mess with my targets using Streamlined kits was not something I could do without.

TheFamster.7806:

Dirame.8521:

TheFamster.7806:

Dirame.8521:

The funny thing about the power of the interrupt mesmer is that it was powerful even before the patch, it’s just that no one wanted to play it because reasons. I’m sure when they fix confounding, it will go back to obscurity when really it’s one of THE most powerful builds of the Mesmer.

BAck then interrupt mesmers didn’t really have shatters to back them down. Now its shatter combination with interrupt, and daze mantra literally stops you from dodging. So basically with 3 skills, Gs2, daze, and mind wreck, you are already able to 1 shot other zerkers. Daze mantra can also be activated in stealth. You tell me How i can dodge that

You can’t. Confounding suggestions is definitely the culprit but I’ve seen some Eles, take them on and come out on top.

And that combo you just said, mesmers could totally do that before, it’s just squishies are squisher now and bunkers are bunkier now.

So basically you are saying that those combos have no counter yet they are fine? I don’t see how that is balanced and having a few people able to grasp a win or two doesn’t make it fine imo

I’m saying….. it’s funny how the community swings just because of an update.

NeXeD.3042:

The sigils crit….

Procs proc procs.

TheFamster.7806:

Dirame.8521:

The funny thing about the power of the interrupt mesmer is that it was powerful even before the patch, it’s just that no one wanted to play it because reasons. I’m sure when they fix confounding, it will go back to obscurity when really it’s one of THE most powerful builds of the Mesmer.

BAck then interrupt mesmers didn’t really have shatters to back them down. Now its shatter combination with interrupt, and daze mantra literally stops you from dodging. So basically with 3 skills, Gs2, daze, and mind wreck, you are already able to 1 shot other zerkers. Daze mantra can also be activated in stealth. You tell me How i can dodge that

You can’t. Confounding suggestions is definitely the culprit but I’ve seen some Eles, take them on and come out on top.

And that combo you just said, mesmers could totally do that before, it’s just squishies are squisher now and bunkers are bunkier now.

The funny thing about the power of the interrupt mesmer is that it was powerful even before the patch, it’s just that no one wanted to play it because reasons. I’m sure when they fix confounding, it will go back to obscurity when really it’s one of THE most powerful builds of the Mesmer.

Vapour.7348:

Stop putting words in my mouth. Not once did I say I was having a hard time. All I did was reiterate your comment about being incompetent against condi classes.
I made this post because I am sincerely concerned about the engineer class and hope that a pvp balance programmer heavily considers the changes they make. The engineer is one of the classes I truly care about and would want to see grow.
You on the other hand, came here and insulted me for “not playing the class correctly”, beat your chest about how great you are and how everyone else is stupid. Ironically, the comments you’ve left here heavily contradicts the comments you’ve left on other posts. You boast a lot to prove how good you are but I doubt you are convincing anyone

Once again, let me apologize for sounding insulting. Always happens like that when I start a rant.

And you don’t have to say outright “I am having a hard time playing engie” for someone to read your original post and immediately think “this guy seems to be having a hard time playing his engie”. Your original post speaks for itself.

My comments complaining about the engie are very specific. Picking things out like the Explosives line and the removal of Always Prepared. I don’t believe I’ve said anywhere that the Engie is weak. If I’ve said that anywhere, please let me know.

Vapour.7348:

Get off your high horse, you don’t even know what build I play. And I’m very much aware of the FT/EG build you spoke of. FYI, it’s an old build that relied on might stacking. It’s a shame you still suffer against condis with your build.

I’m sorry if you feel that I’m being all proud but I was just trying to show you that just because you’re having a hard time, that does not make the engie itself bad.

Apart from the fact that everyone is just spilling OPness everywhere, there’s nothing wrong with the Engie.

Bump! Making written guide for this on Intothemists.com and that will be done soon for y’all who love reading.

Vapour.7348:

People have been complaining about the “bugged” grenade barrage being too OP.

I don’t blame them, they should complain because it is over the top

HOWEVER…

It is the only thing that keeps the post patch engie relevant in pvp.

Played matches where I kept the DPS build the same except I didn’t trait grenadier and engies simply FAIL and don’t hold a candle to DPS builds of other classes. I play multi classes and have 6 champ titles all from almost 3 years of playing (yeah yeah I have no life but back on topic please)

The play style of the engie pre-patch is no longer viable.

We were robbed of Incendiary Powder, a trait symbolic to pvp engies, by crippling it and giving it to the already OP elementalist

Our entire build tree is lacking in synergy and synchronization. I felt the balancing effort towards our class was rushed and done with little consideration. I.E. using granades for dps build and relying on flame thrower or bombs for their fire fields if one wanted to play condi.

Compare the condi stacking of FT 1 and elementalist fire skill 2. It’s offensive beyond belief for the engie. And our FT 4 fire field has a considerably long CD.

On top of that, we can’t even trait Juggernaut and IP at the same time.

Let’s not forget the turret nerf not too long ago, a blow to another viable engie build in pvp.

It’s quite depressing that a bug is what’s keeping us competitive. It should be toned down I agree but the class needs a major overhaul.

If you think the bug is what is keeping Engie’s competitive then you really need to start playing the class properly.

Played FT/EG condi build, wrecking Condi Guards, Eles that don’t run Diamond skin mesmers that don’t run Confounding suggestions and every other class even Necros that are supposed to be our worst nightmare.

I’ve also played a high sustained damage build that can beat Mesmers that run confounding suggestions, all kinds of eles and every other class if played well. The only problem you’ll have is with condis if you run that build.

I’ve tried bombs and it’s epic. So epic that I can’t wait to really run it through it’s paces.

People using Mortar Kit Elite don’t know the new power of the Supply crate. People thinking Turrets are dead haven’t woken up to the possibilities.

Don’t worry though. When the bug finally gets fixed, people will be forced to think smar….. I mean follow the meta.

I don’t actually use the jet all that much unless the target is low or I’ve unloaded a lot of conditions and there’s nothing else to apply so auto-attacking is all that’s left. But that said, with burning stacking now, the auto is definitely a lot better.

Hey guys,

It’s been a while since i last put together a build for the Engie but last week, with the trait revamp, old builds have been given new life and what’s a better build to start with than the build that started it all for me; The Flamethrower/Elixir Gun Might stacking build.

This build has been nerfed, buffed, buffed some more and then buffed some more with every balance patch and the trait revamp was no exception. This build has been affected in a lot of ways and it requires a whole new guide in this all new era.

Behold, the FT/EG build Video guide;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XyMT7aPkTE

Written Guide: http://intothemists.com/guides/5967-fteg_mightstacking_build

WvW Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhatY7Ww+Kw6FLsF1YOOG/I4HWiBgYHVFPBA-T1BHABWs/AAPAg30D0o6P4pEcgTAASK/CAgAMzyMAGv4Fv4Fv4ZmzcmzcmzsUATK2C-w

PvE Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhatY7WwqKw6FLsFVYKObtI4HWiBgYHVFPBA-T1BHABWs/AAPAg30D0o6P4pEcgTAASK/CAgAMzyMAGv4Fv4Fv4ZmzcmzcmzsUATK2C-w

Full match gameplay; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXBKZU7Xyo

Try out the build and let me know what you think.

Wrath of Justice is a trait that activates Signet of Wrath on a target when you use Virtue of Justice.

The problem is, when you have Signet of Wrath(the skill) on your bar, and you use Virtue of Justice whilst Wrath of Justice is selected, it also puts Signet of Wrath(theskill) on cooldown.

Very easy to replicate. Just have Signet of Wrath on your bar and Wrath of Justice selected and activate VoJ to see what I mean.

I just use my dodges when I want and if I see the opportunity to use KB, then I do it. If I don’t then I let it go on cooldown.

Personally a must have.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Ignoring the bug on grenadier making it godly, how have grenades felt with the 900 range? Does mortar kit make up for it?

I personally shy away from the meta but as a person who used to love hitting things with my E-gun at 1200 range, nope, it doesn’t make up for it because it doesn’t do the same things that my e-gun or grenades would do, which is pressure the enemy with condis.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. What elite have you been taking? If you had to rate them from best to worst, how would you do it and why?

Crate is still the best, in 1v1s and above, it just fits every scenario. Mortar is more of a utility weapon, great for heals and damage but not great for CC, Elixir X, amazing CC.

I would say Crate best, Elixir X Great, Mortar meh.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Are you using Flamethrower, EGun or Bomb kit more at all?

The first build I’m making if FT/EG actually. So 2 out of 3.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Engineers currently have a LOT of builds to work with. Which is your favorite so far? Please don’t include any builds that utilize bugs.

Haven’t tried a lot of them. May be after a month I’ll let you know which is my favourite.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Have you tried the new med kit? My experience has been it being a bit clunky.
2. Are you using any heals besides Healing Turret now?

I haven’t used Medkit because it’s all about set-up, you have to be the guy sitting on a point to really gain the benefit. It’s probably great in PvE but not so great in PvP considering all the set-up you have to do.

Still haven’t touched AED or Elixir Heal.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. I’ve heard from some people that the gadgeteer trait is a bit lackluster. Do you agree and if so, what do you think would make it better?

Haven’t had time to give it a try myself unfortunately but I guess, having to get hit to get it to work may not be a so great idea. Could it be made an on dodge trait or on successful multiple dodges?

Sigil of Doom has a longer “than it says on the tin” duration. It says it lasts for 6s but even without condi duration gear, it lasts for 12s. Is this intended?

DaShi.1368:

Ithilwen.1529:

I adamantly disagree. In my 3rd year of play, this is the first time I feel on a relatively even footing.

What needs to happen is the former burst/zerk classes that could destroy a Mesmer ( or Ele ) in seconds learn to have some defense.

I understand the sour grapes. Rangers, Warriors, Guardians and thieves prety much had the upper hand going into a fight with a Mesmer.

This led them to believe they were highly skilled. Now, they need to learn a new skill set and defense.

Pretty much sums it up. Mesmers are now on par with those classes, which is, of course, unacceptable to them.

Yea, someone that can spam stuns every 5 seconds is totally on par with people who actually play their class. I mean really, these guys who are exploiting the ability to spam stuns are totally amazing mesmers who would be considered top tier in PvP if they were ever given the chance.

GIVE ME A BLOODY BREAK MATE! And I don’t mean a kitkat.

I don’t know what you’re talking about Disunity, all I’ve been seeing is buffs.

Dodging shatters is also harder now because for some reason, they changed the way the shatters move towards you so even if you dodge through them, there’s no guarantee that they’ll blow up. I literally have to dodge twice to evade a shatter not counting the 5s cooldown stuns I’m trying to dodge as well.

[Bug] Throw Mine doesn’t have an Explosion radius of 240. I should know because I used the skill before the patch. Right now it’s only hitting targets very close to the proximity ring when it used to hit them even when they stood outside of the ring.

Edit: This has also been measured by using Bombs, the explosion radius is apparently set to 180.

Ring of Earth is destroying projectiles for longer than it’s duration and on a larger radius.

Reproduceable by having an Ele activate the skill and tossing some would be projectiles like Grenades, Elixir R, Super Elixir and Elixir Shell at them.

We need to mention the actual traits just like Black Beard is doing; I only have one trait to complain about and that’s Confounding Suggestions.

This trait has kitten cooldown and has gives mesmers the ability to turn their Dazes into stuns. Mesmers with Mantra of Distraction (also has kitten cooldown when charged) can just spam it off cooldown without any sense of trying to interrupt a skill or even be skillful, they just use it get the stun and chain into a burst combo. At first I thought the trait would be good but now I see it’s just too good.

If you guys wanted to bring the interrupt mesmer back, I think you might have gotten to the finish line and just kept going because right now, this trait is overperforming in my opinion. My suggestion? Make the cooldown longer or make it chance based again. The latter option being the the less desirable one.

Hey guys, I’m going to be streaming for a few hours today playing my crazy FT/EG Might stacking build. Come chill and watch; http://www.twitch.tv/ceimash

Blooperz.6145:

warbignime.4610:

With full set of sinister you can do up to 50k(without vulnerability) burning in less than 3 second. It is the most op thing I have ever seen since the game launched. Now I just hope Anet does not overnerf this.

Already a red post saying condi is getting the nerfhammer, enjoy it while it lasts =S

Link please?

digitalruse.9085:

PvE – P/S – Power/Condi/Support

Explosions – I, III, II
Firearms – II, III, II
Alchemy – I, I, I

Healing Turret, Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, Mortar Kit

P.S. – I hope a nomenclature for discussion builds is developed soon. I took my best stab at it.

Nomenclature = Take a screenshot, attach it to your post, done.

All my old builds work and are hilariously more powerful for reasons that both surprise me and sadden me but hey, let’s enjoy it while it lasts shall we!

That condi necro in particular is great vs classes that boon spam. That includes Eles and a few of Chaith’s builds.

The only problem will arrive when he gets focused and can’t get out of it because… signets.

It would have been fun to see a more “practical” PvP necro but, that works too. The only way Chaith could beat him is if Chaith ran Elixir R but, no one runs Elixir R.

Mallis.4295:

Dirame.8521:

I know there will be moments where someone just unloaded a ton of bleeds and other condis on you but because of his/her overzealousness, they put another stack of bleed on you making it the most recently applied condition

Have you also considered that most condi builds constantly apply their damaging condition and can’t control it? Warriors and Necro have bleed on crit. Guardian auto-burns every 3 hits. Most of the time your main damage condition is going to be the last condition applied because you constantly apply it. Removing the most recent condition would hit the damaging condition 90% of the time and make condi builds completely useless.

I guess I’m just basing it off of the fact that I’ve been able to control my condi application either by refraining from attacking for a few seconds after applying a set amount of conditions or by using a skill that constantly applies a different set of conditions compared to my most damaging one which I want to cover.

Linnael.1069:

Can we get a confirmation that this is true? I thought this applied to conversion only.

If rng is coming to cleansing its gonna be straight up gg.

I got it from Chaith but you’re right, if an official tag could grant us the gift of confirmation or even someone who streamed the update, that would be nice.

We all have fun playing Hearthstone. Heck even I do every now and then but you know what moments really frustrate people about Hearthstone and why it can’t stay fun for too long before you feel like ripping apart your keyboard? It’s those moments where you’re waiting for that board clear and it just doesn’t arrive. It’s buried somewhere in the deep dark corner of your deck.
And you know what moments in Hearthstone are absolutely thrilling? It’s when you execute a perfectly laid out plan predicting your opponents every move based on the cards in your hand.

What am I talking about? I just gathered from Chaith’s stream that condi cleansing has been set to random rather than, cleansing the most recently applied condition. This irks me because I know there will be moments where someone just unloaded a ton of bleeds and other condis on you but because of his/her overzealousness, they put another stack of bleed on you making it the most recently applied condition, you go to remove it and… nothing. It’s still there because condi removal is now random, you’re a ticking time bomb now and no amount of dodging will save you.

There’s something powerful about knowing how to use cover condis well and knowing how to use condi removal smartly. The ability to estimate how much work you have to do to remove one condition should not be underestimated, the frustration of failing to remove the condi you want due to a dice roll should not be looked upon lightly.

All I ask is that you consider changing it back because, for one reason above all else, it will ruin the counterplay between cover condis and smart condi removal useage.

In any case, that’s just my two cents.

Foefaller.1082:

You do know that, with no condition damage, IP will no only do 700 damage every 10 seconds, right? Base burning damage will be cut to almost a third of what is was before.

Even with that, as long as it’s doing damage at moments when you possibly can’t hit the target, it’s still useful. The amount of times burning has been the difference between downed and escaping, I personally can’t count but we’ll see how ineffective it is soon.

Foefaller.1082:

If you can call Advanced Turrets more generally useful than Siege Rounds just because everyone runs Healing Turret, then I reserve the right to say declare Siege Rounds as a generally useful trait if and when Mortar Kit replaces Supply Drop as the de-facto Engi Elite skill. Deal?

EDIT:Also, you’ve never actually used the old Fortified turrets before, have you? It doesn’t synergize with the way everyone uses Healing Turret at all.

Nah. And here’s the reason why; I don’t know how powerful Orbital Strike is but based on what I’ve seen and the amount of seconds it’s really adding to your fields…. it really isn’t that great. 2s extra? Really? That’s what you call useful? I personally don’t see it unless that healing field rezzes downed allies or something.

And of course you have to change the way you use healing turret to maximize the reflection field. But just think about this scenario; your ally is downed and there are a bunch of characters using projectile abilities like Thieves and Engies, just toss down your HT and rez your teammate. Or just to mess with a ranger who uses bow or a necro when they pop Lich.

I actually came up with a trait that would be perfect if it was rolled in with Siege Rounds.
I call it Smoke Signal; When you place a smoke field, call in an orbital strike at that location. When you manually call in an Orbital Strike, you get an extra strike. Mortar Fields last 40% longer.

In my opinion, the above would be perfect. Just think of the synergies…

Foefaller.1082:

Wasn’t there somebody saying that Shrapnel felt worthless as a GM trait because you “had” to take grenades for it, even though there were other skills that could use it?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about Stimulant Supplier? Because the level of effectiveness between Medkit and HT for that trait isn’t that large. You can probably keep it up all the time if you were diligent with your HT usage. Whilst with Shrapnel and Grenades the effectiveness of Grenades is vastly greater than that of bombs or any other explosive.

Foefaller.1082:

traits, especially damage, cooldown and condition proc traits, will still have a big impact on a build’s potential damage output. I guess I could, in theory, still run an S/D build with something like that, but I’d at the very least want some crit effects from Firearms if I’m going to do that.

Definitely.

So I’ve been thinking. I’ve been doing a lot of complaining with not a lot of suggesting so I have a few ideas on how things should be relocated and retooled and I’d like to share them below. Some people who have shared their thoughts here may not like my suggestions but, what’s new?

ADEPT TIER
Minor remains the same, Grenadier remains the same.

Explosive Descent stays the same

Replace Glass Cannon With; Near-Death Trigger: When you go down, trigger an explosion that launches foes.

MASTER TIER:
Modify Minor trait Steel-Packed Powder to include Thermobaric Detonation: Explosions cause vulnerability. Evasive Powder keg is a blast finisher

Replace Aim-assisted Rocket with; Sticky Grenade: Hitting targets in Melee places a sticky charge on them that explodes after 1s. The explosion applies 5 stacks of vuln dazes them and is unblockable. ICD (10s) (I suggest this mainly to have something that rewards us for how we play on different ranges. Rewards us for getting in there and punching things in the face. Would work immensely with hammer when it arrives)

Shaped Charge becomes 10% instead of 5 to make up for the loss in Glass Canon and Short Fuse remains the same

GRANDMASTER TIER: Are you ready? Please don’t crucify me

Minor trait Explosive Powder remains the same.

Replace Siege Rounds with Forceful Explosives: Explosions that Knockback, Launch or Push also cause knockdown for 2s. (this affects Big Ol’ bomb, Throw Mine, Turrets affected by Explosive Powder, Magnetic Bomb and the Adept tier trait that I suggested above; Near-Death Trigger.)

Shrapnel
Successful Blast finishers apply 4 stacks of bleeding, vuln and cripple for 6s to foes in the area.

As Thermobaric Detonation is now in a Minor Master trait, a new trait can now be created.

Concussive Blast;
You have a 33% chance to confuse a foe when you hit with an explosive. ICD 30s. Hitting a foe that has vuln above the threshold [15 stacks] with an explosive applies 2 stacks of Bleeding, 5 stacks of confusion, slow and weakness for 5s. [ICD 30s]

As unlikely as the above is to happen, it would be nice and I think it would be amazing for all sorts of builds if it did. But that’s just my opinion.

Penguin.5197:

My favorite is going from sharpshooter to sharpershooter

I wonder what must have happened to make such progress possible

We had iron sights now we have scopes!

Foefaller.1082:

To be fair, most of the other GM traits could also be said to only affect “a certain type of build”

Juggernaut requires FT
Modified Ammo has you stacking conditions, even if it’s a power build (Guess what would help with that?)
IP is only good if your running an actual condition build, thanks to the Condition changes
Advanced Turrets requires Turrets
Medical Dispersion Field has no use if you’re soloing
HGH is for Elixirs
Stimulant Supplier requires Med kit to proc as often as it can (assuming it works like most on heal traits/Runes)
Iron Blooded has you stacking boons, which means either a friendly guardian, Experimental Turrets, Med Kit with no Stimulant Supplier, Elixirs with no HGH, or some combination of them all
Gadgeteer requires Gadgets

Yeap, there’s one trait in every GM tree that requires a skill or weapon. The explosives line still remains the least useful in my opinion and overtime you guys may end up seeing it too.

Modified Ammo can be used with Nades or Elixir Gun or Bombs or Pistol or even Rifle

IP is great in all builds. Don’t make the mistake of thinking it isn’t good in power builds. It’s amazing for sustained damage.

Advanced turrets requires turrets. Still more useful than two Orbital strikes because; Healing turret.

Stimulant Supplier doesn’t say anything about requiring a Medkit. That’s like saying Rune of Balth requires the Medkit when we’ve been using it with HT all this time.

Iron Blooded works with the first minor trait in Alchemy. And considering we’ll be privy to at least 3 boons most of the time (swiftness, vigor, regeneration) and 4 when we’re CC’ed (protection). I would say it’s something to consider but it actually might be a better minor trait than it is a GM thinking about it now. But yea, it’s very functional without people being around you.

HGH is also affect by Hidden Flask. So you could take it if you wanted to just to get 2 extra might stacks for the proc.

Foefaller.1082:

That leaves Bunker Down, Kinetic Charge, and Adrenal Implant as the “good for everyone” GM traits, maybe also Stimulant Supplier if it doesn’t trigger on Med Kit swap. I guess I could take one from each specialization (though I’d have to choose between KC and AI) but it seems that it would make me a very tanky engineer, and most of the skills that I’d want to use would have better traits for them in Explosives or Firearms.

I’d also put Thermobaric Detonation on that list of good for all GM traits, even if Siege Rounds appeals to me more (unless you’re running a build with absolutely no fields whatsoever). Like I said, I do not believe there is such a thing as more blast finishers than necessary.

The traits will make you more survivable, yes, but not necessarily tanky. That all depends on the amulets and runes now.

Frightlight.3796:

Does this mean with the grenade range nerf engineers stopped working out?

Side-effect of improving it’s travel speed is shorter range, you could say.

Foefaller.1082:

Anyway, those are might thoughts on it. Can agree that adept traits are ho-hum if your not using nades, and while I think all the master traits are equally good, I can see how you might feel that Aim-Assisted Rocket is the only one worth taking (that being said, Vuln is not that hard at all to maintain for an Engineer, and faster explosions for Bomb kit is like Shatter Mes clones getting Super Speed with Chronomancer; Try the build in PvP for a day or to and you’ll quickly realize why a non-damage trait can give so much joy)

Actually I feel that Shaped Charge and Short Fuse are a lot more worth taking that Aim-assisted Rocket but Aim assisted Rocket may end up being too good to pass up. You can do without Short Fuse but, it’s a nice addition.

I see your points about the GMs but, again those GMs only affect a certain type of build which means that the Explosives line isn’t as useful to other builds. Taking what Jugglemonkey said into account, the system is called “Specializations” so that may be the reason but I doubt that considering how well designed and free-form the other lines are.

I mean just go through all the GM traits for the other lines and think about how you could use them in place of what you’ve put in the explosives line and I’m sure you’ll find something more interesting than fields that last 2s longer.

Ceimash and Guns n Tools talk engie builds, skills and their place in the upcoming meta. Combustible Lemons unfortunately had to leave us due to some personal issues so for now, his replacement is a rotating guest list that starts with Guns n Tools.

Try shattering the myth with proof rather than assumptions and conjecture.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Explosives is great for grenades and bombs, as you say. It’s maybe not as good for other builds, but considering the lines are now called SPECIALISATIONS, wanting each one to benefit each build equally is actually a bit silly.

Of course the explosives specialisation won’t help you as much as other options if you don’t use explosives. That’s pretty obvious.

Good point. But my thought is still that even if you ran grenades, you could still run any other line because they could offer you way more. I mean yea you’ve got Shrapnel but, Firearms has Incendiary Powder, Explosives has vuln on explosions but Firearms has vuln on crit.

I just feel the usefulness of the other lines far out-shine the Explosives line.

Arantheal.7396:

And that is not a weakness of explosives, that’s the strength of all other trait-lines and the utilities themselves. Not being forced to run a particular line is a good thing, especially if all trait-line come with viable options and decisions, and all utilities are working already as stand-alone, without any trait-support (requirements) so you don’t have to ask yourself “Will not picking this kitten me up?”, but asking yourself “Will this kitten up opponents even faster?”

This is not about whether we’re being forced into one line or the other because it has all the cool stuff. Explosives is just very replaceable by anything because the traits it has are weak in comparison to all the other lines.

It doesn’t have to be broken. It just has to have more utility than it does now for players who decide to play something other than grenades or turrets.

Arantheal.7396:

take bombs and mortar.
- access to all fields the engi is capable of (water, poison, light, frost, fire, smoke)
- access to all conditions the engi is capable of (bleed, cripple, immob, burning, confusion, poison, blind, vulnerability & chill)
- 2 of the hardest hitting AA’s, one of which is on 1.5k range and a 100% projectile finisher
[- 2/3/5 blast-finisher on demand, depending on the traits chosen].
OR
[-2/3 blast-finishers on demand + blasts on dodges, depending on your traits chosen]

and this is without even having to decide on your gear, weapon, heal, sigils, runes and 2 utility-slots.
I don’t see nades here, and already have the wet dream of every hybrid build, while STILL being able to trait for and take nades if I so desire.

Replace explosives with Tools. Kinetic Charge allows you to use Mortar twice anyway and Lock on allows you to ruin Thieves and Mesmers day without much effort because you’ve got tons of AoEs and if you’ve got toolkit, Power Wrench is your girl.

OR

Replace it with Firearms and gain Incendiary powder but you don’t need that because you have tons of burning anyway, you could always go for Modified Ammunition instead Or you could use Flamethrower and take Juggernaut for that on demand stab. Take skilled Marksman because you’re obviously running rifle right?
And heavy armour exploit because it increases both your condi and direct damage when you crit.

If you just said turrets it would’ve been harder but yea.

Arantheal.7396:

Yes, this seems to be your personal problem. Good to see that you finally recognize that.

The topic title may be sensational but the OP does start with “I think…”.

Arantheal.7396:

I guess this is an “unpopular opinions” thread.
It’s fine that you don’t like the changes. It’s your taste and I couldn’t care less, but don’t try to find hilarious reasons to sell us that this line is bad, while the cogs of theory-crafters are already turning and come up with devastating and well-synergizing trait-combos that the mayority of is based in the explosives line.

Haha sure. Put together a build that uses the explosives line but doesn’t use grenades and try to replace the explosives line with any other line. What you will see is that, all the other lines are actually more useful than the explosives line.

The only weapon that can take advantage of the Explosives line is grenades. Bombs to a lesser extent and for everything else…. its not even worth it.

If that isn’t a problem to you then, cool. But It is a problem to me.

Toxsa.2701:

Are you kidding me? I think it’s very good post patch.
It even benefit those naders who run zerk and no longer requires burning.
The one that everyone’s looking forward to is the one that leave a blast finisher after dodge. Also it has the easiest to achieve damage modifier in the game. Personally I’m looking forward to all the nade related traits.

Yeap but if you’re not running nades though? What is there for you? There’s only 1 trait for bomb users really and they could easily do without it because in some cases it might mess up their timing.

Jerus.4350:

Damage modifiers alone make it a must have for PVE, toss in the sweet blast options in the GM tree, well, quite frankly I don’t know what you’re talking about in thinking it lacks anything.

We already have a ton of Blast finishers. Like I said, the changes have only made the builds we have stronger, they haven’t given us anything new to toy around with and you could literally remove explosives from your blast healing build or Might stacking build and still be hitting good healing numbers and 25 stacks of might.

insanemaniac.2456:

i disagree

they already posted some opinions on why explosives is good, so heres why static discharge is bad too: static discharge is a buggy piece of crap that kittens up your ability to queue skills

I think it still manages to be more interesting than 75% of the Explosives line.

Arantheal.7396:

Î disagree.

While explosives still bring awesome synergy to condi and hybrid-builds, they’re meant to be taken for powerbuilds anyways.

the minors speak for themselves. dodge-bomb, vuln and more dmg / cc
when it comes to adept-tier, yes it’s lackluster for power-pvp builds that decide against nades, but you have to keep in mind the synergy with inventions when it comes to blast-heals (and you get a ton of them from explosions), so glass-cannon is a valid pick for PvP.

moving on to master-tier, we have the incredible useful short fuse. at least you did recognize it as the valuable trait it is. What you’ve failed to realize is the seeker-missle for what it brings: a free attack without cast-animation, judging from its parent-skill with decent dps as well. yes, it’s quite rng, but since it procs on hit it will be useful for all kinds of builds, especially when you spam #1 in downstate and suddenly the guy that tries to stomp you gets hit like a truck. since the oil-puddle on always prepared was so small, this trait has much more potential to prevent a stomp (via bringing your opponent into downstane) than always prepared could have ever achieved.

shaped charge: 5% more dmg (on top of the 10% of the minor) for free, since we spam so much explosives that your targets most of the time will have vulnerability. so by picking this trait, you theoretically have 15 stacks of vulnerability permanently on a target, and still can go up 25 more. 15% to 40% more dmg from picking this line with shaped charge. up to 45% if you also pick glass-cannon. this is huge.
Keep in mind that vulnerability will also increase condi-dmg now, while pistol AA is counted as “explosion”…

and then we have the grandmasters.
I mean, that’s the point where you make yourself ridiculous. EPK becoming a blast-finisher? while we also have a trait in inventions that allows us to directly heal with blasts? While we have a tools-grandmaster that gives us perma-vigor (since vigor got nerfed)? Wat?
Add on top of this sigil of energy or elixir R (that coincidentally clears immob) and we look on one hell of a build-defining trait.

Then the mortar grandmaster.
2 blasts in a row, every 40 seconds, increased duration on aoe – chill, -poison and -blind fields, all valuable soft-cc’s. this alone is huge for power-builds, but add on top of that kinetic charge. 4 blasts + 4x BoB-like dmg in a row. or 2 blasts + 2x BoB every 20 seconds, while being able to drop a (enhanced duration) waterfield with the same kit…
take juggernaut in firearms, give yourself stab with flamethrower and then OS + netshot to set people up for this burst. Or cleave downed people with this dmg. Or simply hammer the kitten out of svanir or chieftain / contested points, or out of rezzing / stomping people…

You seem to not have understood what synergy and “build-defining” means if you can’t recognize this huge frekkin moose in the hallway…

You’ve willfully ignored some of the other things I have a problem with and have given no reason for them to exist.

I had no problem with Shaped Charge, Grenadier, or Thermobaric Detonation, I understand their use but think about this, do you truly need the extra blasts? You don’t.
Do you really need Shrapnel? You don’t. Shrapnel doesn’t add anything to the build, you can get 3 blast finishers in one turret and even Eles who can heal themselves like crazy, cannot stay above 90% health in PvP. In PvE yea, sure you can but a trait that feeds into all systems would be better wouldn’kitten It’s not just PvEers that play this game you know.

Siege Rounds is a master tier trait at best, Shrapnel, same thing. Thermobaric Detonation? I have no problem with the function of this trait, just it’s position in the list. Something else should really fill those slots and those things should make me go “Hmm, I’ll have to figure out a different way to position my character to maximize this trait.”

Aim-assisted Rocket is such a “I’ll take that because I don’t want to take anything else” trait that it also feels like I could easily do without it.

I think the Engie Explosives line is extremely lackluster. All the other lines outpace and it possesses no defining characteristics. Nothing truly goes boom in the explosives line.

No single trait in the Grandmaster line for explosives does what Static Discharge does for the Tools line and SD is an Adept trait. There’s something seriously wrong if that’s the case.

Take a look at the video and tell me what you think about the explosives line.

Penguin.5197:

And b) I like to think the engie forums are a more welcoming place than other forums, much more positive than say, necromancers.

Hahaha, that’s very funny.

leman.7682:

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t be saying that but I laughed hard watching your video.

> Killing Svanir in HotM
> ‘If that’s all I need to wreck someone, then necro is safe’

XDDDD

or…

> ‘Going into Death Shroud alone you just wrecked someone somewhere, just by pressing the DS button, someone pretty much has died somewhere.’

Kappa
How is anyone going to take you seriously after that?

I mean, please if you want to argue, present some serious arguments, not a troll video.

Haha, that was me being over-excited and I didn’t want to jump into a match and talk because that would just kill my flow.

leman.7682:

My argument: I can see some decent build possibilities with the trait changes (spite, corruption, blood magic signet necro) but when I compare the changes to engies, warriors, mesmers and pretty much everyone else, it looks much more dire.

Necro is in a better place build variety wise than Engie. Engie can only make the same old builds. Mesmers have more condi removal, Thieves have more healing, Warriors have more damage to their tanky builds. Necros just have many more NEW builds.

leman.7682:

We’ll see, but if anything your arguments won’t be the reason necro is good, in the unlikely case it is.

Let’s see what my arguments are;

- Consume Conditions won’t be much of a problem on builds that also build for condi removal/transfer
- Necro has good build diversity now
- Curses change isn’t that big of a deal since we can just spec for boon conversion elsewhere
- Bleeds from Plague won’t be the thing that kills us in a fight.
- Necro can spite without activating signet of spite.
- Blood Magic line is amazing.

My comments are so broad that, at least one of them will be the reason why the Necro turns out to be good.

wolfyrik.2017:

Yes, builds without condition cleanse are a bad idea, that’s not in dispute, what is in dispute is whether a player should be forced to use those cleanses to clear their own conditions, which were applied by a condition cleanse, instead of the ones being applied by opponenets?

A condition cleanse which applies conditions is absurd in the extreme, it becomes a condition swapper, instead of a cleanse. In essense, necro will have to use two cleanses when they’re in trouble, one to clear the conditions on them and the second to clear the conditions they just applied. Aside from the self-contradictory absurdity of the preposition, the class is now taking several actions to do what should have been done with one, for no gains what-so-ever and two cooldowns blown, while granting their opponents increased damage and additional time to take advantage of it while we’re busy cleansing our cleanses.

All the time forcing the necro into specific traitlines and weapons, just to make an arguably average healing skill, baseline again.

And you’re still missing the point that if the necro is in a position where they’re able to transfer and cleanse conditions, using the conditions on them as a weapon, why would they need to use ConCon? It’s a heal for those situations where you need cleanses, presumably because you’re unable to transfer for whatever reason. Having it then apply one or two conditions further means that it takes you back to square one, in trouble, being overwhelmed by conditions. Yes, now you have more health, but that doesn’t make much difference if you’re taking a minimum of 10% more damage and I say minimum because there are plenty of traits and skills which increase damage with conditions on foe. Infact, there are several skills and traits which take advantage of vulnerability specifically! Using this version CC just gives them even more damage against us. It does our opponents a favor!

This would be less of an issue if we had a defence mechanism that scaled in potency with the number of conditions on us. We did have one of course, unfortunately it was Consume Conditions.

I feel that with the different condi transfers we have, we’ll be passively removing condis and manipulating condis a lot. That’s why it seems like a non-issue to me. Of course they could change it to weakness or drop the vuln count but even if they didn’t, I still think we can handle it.

Lily.1935:

Another issue you’re not seeing is you’re getting no internal benefit from this. Consume condition shouldn’t be a corruption or it should replace vulnerability with 2 seconds of Weakness. Although I’d much prefer to have it function exactly as its old version. Much like the rest of the community. The problem with Master of corruptions is you’re weakening yourself without much gain. in fact, if you look at the skill cooldowns of the current corruptions then compare them to their patch cool downs you see that master of corruption is just punishing you to be on par or very slightly shorter cool down than it was before. We as necromancer can’t take advantage of suffering from conditions like the revenant can. We don’t have resistance, we don’t pulse copies of our conditions and our corruption skills are not nearly as strong. The Strength of corruptions has been argued back and forth for a long time now. Weather or not the conditions they apply to the use makes the skill too weak or just on par with other skills. But they’ve never been that great especially compared with other professions. The only two that really stood out were Corrupt Boon and Epidemic. And Epidemic is rather gimmicky while corrupt boon was nerfed almost into uselessness.

Considering how the player base is I don’t expect to have ANY useful condition builds for the necromancer at all. Arena net seems to be back peddling with some of the balance philosophy with this patch and necromancer is being hit the hardest by it. And the signet build I mentioned before? Its not even going to be that good. But it’ll be nerfed. The difference between 1 boon and 2 boons can make or break that build and if it gets nerfed thats the first thing that arena net will go for and it’ll drop off the face of the earth. I’m already worried that the boon application will out preform any conversion we can execute, but if history has taught me anything about necromancer balance. We don’t get to keep any of our toys. We don’t get to be competitive. We don’t get to be included in content.

You want to be competitive? You’re going to have to run power. And with the new environment you’ll always be 2 steps behind everyone else.

We may not be able to pulse the conditions already on us to other people but we can cleanse those conditions by sending them to the person who sent them to us or using what they did to us to kill their friends.

I’ll be doing my part in coming up with viable builds for the class and I’m sure a lot of you will too even if you’re screaming bloody murder right now. I’ll be smiling in my chair when you guys find that OP build of legend.

wolfyrik.2017:

Dirame.8521:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IbnhoG-AA

Based on the fact that people keep telling I’m wrong, I decided to make a video explaining the reasons why I think the Necro is fine and it actually gained the most from the Revamp.

Let me know what you think.

Two problems here.
Firstly, making a video doesn’t make you any less wrong. It just makes you wrong in a different format. Not that I’m necessarily saying you’re wrong, of course, just pointing out a flaw.

Secondly, your arguments about the necros’ ability to transfer the CC self-conditions miss a really important point; if the necro is able to transfer the conditions, why are they using CC? It becomes a self-defeating heal. If you need the heal, you have to use up valuable, limited clears and transfers, which should be used for any attacks, just to clear your own self damage, which when traited is going to be two out of each transfer cap. So just to make up for healing yourself, you’ve already lost several valuable tools. A position completely unique to Necro CC which gives no benefit to the player whatsoever.

If you’re using CC because you’re overwhelmed with conditions and can’t transfer them, then you’re still going to be left with at least one condition, two if traited, which you now cannot remove, leaving you just as vulnerable if not more so because now you have two conditions, one of which increases damage, including condition damage, as well as any further conditions that the enemy throws at you. Of course this means that any opponent which gains increased damage output for every condition on a foe already has increased damage against you the moment you heal, on top of the increased damage from your own vulnerability stacks. A situation for which you have zero counterplay.

It also forces the player into one specific build, which is the precise opposite of build diversity, just for the sake of using what is now the class’ basic heal and only condition clearing heal. New necros won’t have access to the traits of course, which means they’re hit for all the penalties with no “synergy”, if any can be found in this ridiculous idea.

As for Plague Elite, it’s now self-defeating to anyone who doesn’t take the one viable build, forcing us to take other elites. Even if you do trait for it, sendinyour own bleed stack to the enemy will only work once, leaving you vulnerability to the follow bleeds and everything else the enemy throws at you, meaning your only real chance is hoping that at least one of your enemies is below 25%. If they’re not, you’re in for a world of hurt.

To your first point, at the end of the video I asked for your thoughts. If that doesn’t mean I’m open to you telling me I’m wrong, then I don’t know what does.

To your second point. My arguments for ConCon are all based around possible builds that we can make. So far, I’ve made about 19 builds, each of them having varying degrees of expected survivability. Just like every other class, the spec that doesn’t take condition removal and some way to juke the enemy or nullify damage will suffer. Basically what I’m saying is, you’re going to have to spec for some survivability if you actually want to be competitive and that survivability will either include condi transfer or condi removal. And in those cases, the vuln will be of little concern.

Every build has to make the choice between dieing fast and killing fast or dieing slow and killing slow. This is just going to be one of those choices.

And to your final point, the damage from your Plague is probably like 0.1% of the damage that’s going to be dealt to you if you’re 2v1 or more. It’s really insignificant in the grand scheme.

The only time the bleed will be your worst enemy is if you were at 100 health and you thought “hey, I’m going to plague right now” even then the plague will give you a boost in health but really, if you’re at that health number, you were going to die anyway.

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

You’re kind of just proving that you don’t understand how the game works. Unless you’re going into plague at 100% health the damage taken is still the same damage taken regardless of mitigation. Saying that its possible to heal that damage back up doesn’t mean jack because you could have been healing up_ other_ damage. I see this mistake made so often. Damage taken has no correlation at all to the marginal utility of healing unless you’re screwing up and overhealing.

You’re also not even considering the fact that plague will now pulse a free cover condition on you, making it much harder for allies to help you if you get immobilized/chilled. There are so many problems with the pulsing bleed that you just aren’t seeing. Take a look at it from the PvE perspective. Players that use it for the stab on jumping puzzles are now just getting thrown into combat immediately and totally kittened over. The list goes on.

I see your point, really but the damage from the bleed is very minor. Anything that heals you will out heal it. The additional condition is only if you run MoC and really, the reason you run MoC is because you’ve got something else up your sleeve that you can do to counter it’s effects.

And about PvE, plenty of players get through those JPs without Plague. You don’t need Plague for that.