Guild Wars 2

What’s not fair about resetting MMR at the beginning of the season and allowing free movement DOWN as well as up tiers and divisions thoughout the whole league?

Everyone starts at the beginning of the race just like everyone else, no special treatment, handicaps, false floors.

How’s that not fair?

Cyanon.1928:

QQing.3089:

But you won’t fix class stacking, which is the biggest issue next to class balance. Yay….

I think class stacking is part of the overall issues of the matchmaking system that they claim to be discussing now according to AMA.

I think class stacking is a symptom of the current matchmaking. For example if one team has 3 necros and one has 3 DH’s, they can’t swap a DH and a Necro around because the imbalance between the MMR of the 2 teams won’t allow it.
Also it’s likely that the Higher MMR players are playing Meta specs so it is inevitable if you are stacking teams with similar MMR that Meta builds will face off against non-Meta builds quite often too. And because there are only a handful of Meta builds there will inevitably be stacking of those builds.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Crimson Shi.5047:

@Sirbeaumerdier.3740 I have suffered losses, if you seen my posts I even ranted about it. There were even some matches were I would say to myself … “ah… why did I do that, that was my fault” Yes you are just 1 cog in the machine of 5 cogs in total. Yes I can understand it’s hard to carry. Definitely been in matches were I just looked to the sky, and begged Dwayna save me. But all in all I just I don’t know, I don’t see it. I mean I know the experience is different from person to person. But in my experience I had to help recover a mistake my allies made. In return I had allies who help to recover my mistakes, and in the end we pulled it off. You will get matches like that. It just the breaks of the game.

By the same token it just doesn’t sit well either to go around saying “I am amazing” or “I can 1v1 any of you” or “I know I am better then the people around me that I don’t belong here” Maybe you are, and maybe you don’t but sometimes you gotta just go that extra step. Take a break and try again, que later maybe so you won’t get the same team? Try again tomorrow, it will still be here to frustrate you. :p Make friends, and form a team. Switch classes when necessary…blah blah I am sure you all know this.

Point being if you really want it, all you can do is keep trying, it will probably suck, it will infuriate you to your soul, you will scream colorful metaphors at your screen. But in the end it just depends on how bad you want it. Or ….. quit.

Might be the time of the day I play and the risky builds I tried before I learned how the system worked or something but there is no end to this in my case now (well, I broke my streak and even got another winning streak but the baddies are back… and even when you babysit them you can’t overcome someone who just don’t read or care).

I can continue to try like I do but my fear is that I’m now marked for life and any SOLOQ with this algorithm will continue to think my place is among these guys the next season and the next etc. So the more it goes the less likely I’m going to get out of this.

I already have what is hard to get for the back piece so it is not what make me sad. I love to play pvp and knowing you are likely kittened before you even start is not very comforting i my problem… Doubly so when you are rated individually based on a random collections of teams. GG if that collection was good for some, but for the rest it can sux…

Yeah – short of a hard reset of MMR for Season 3, I’m never really going to believe that those Rank Gems mean much.

Other games reset MMR at the beginning of the season… why carry one season’s injustices into the next?

shion.2084:

Hello Dev’s,
I’m worried that my perceptions of this season are impacted by a confirmation bias. I would like some hard facts by which to make some meaningful observations which are not limited to my insufficient sample size.

Could you pretty please tell us
1) By division, the frequency of played (not queued) classes.
2) The win ration break down of pre-made groupings vs. solo queue’ers (ie. on average if a team has 2 folks who queued together they are not statistically more likely to beat 5 randomly pulled people who queued individually against them, but 3 people are 60% more likely to beat 5 solos etc.)
3) The streakiness of win losses via a standard deviation confidence level for each of the tiers.
4) the distribution of conquest mode end game scores as broken down by tier.

Is there anything else easily data mineable that anyone else would like to see?

MMR – next to the gem… now that would be a laugh.

Crimson Shi.5047:

Not sure to the posters in here but I solo qued to Ruby working my way to Diamond. I have a second account making their way to Ruby. So imo the MMR is working as intended.

Cool, happy days… if you read the Threads on the issues you’ll understand why you’ve had the experience you have had and why they’ve had the experience they have had.

Dichotomy.

FirehawkDAR.9021:

Red Alert 3 had a mission where you could destroy the HQ of Electronic Arts. Anet should make a map where players have to defend Anet main building that is being attacked by one group of players who want to destroy it and defended by another.
PvP population might get a brief spike out of, if nothing else, the hatred toward the anet devs who pretty much rip off of everybody of their money by luring them into this cesspool of a game.

I think what he’s saying is:

“Yes”

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

AegisFLCL.7623:

snip

snip

Sirbeaumerdier focuses on the Solo Queue problem… and it is a serious issue with the system.

Yes some people have had a good experience solo queuing but it seems to be the minority.

GW2 player base is NOT big enough to have a fair league where you can only play as a 5 man Premade.

Season 2 is pretty much using Solo Queue players as fodder… punishing their MMR and putting them into a losing hole.

Keep doing this and people won’t solo queue.

At that point you’re league is dead.

You can argue that it’s a L2P issue. You can ignore how fundamentally flawed and unfair the system is. Ignore the potential damage to the game this is doing and you’re actually shooting yourself in the foot.

Still playing Ranked but less..

I play PVP in GW2 because it never used to feel grindy.

This feels insanely grindy now though. You can get stuck in a spot for ages – then the win streak God steps you up the next Threshold. You didn’t suddenly get better, you just got better matches. Too random.
Two equal skilled players could have the same win rate and MMR – yet one could progress and the other go nowhere, simply depending on the order of the wins and losses and the way you win and lose pips and can’t be demoted down through certain thresholds.

Rank is supposed to represent player skill – it didn’t in Season 1, but atleast the games were generally evenly matched and everyone felt like they could progress.
Rank still doesn’t represent player skill in Season 2 – this is much worse because that’s basically ALL season 2 is about.

In Season 1 the best players still held the top spots but it didn’t feel as special because players were able to achieve high ranks just by dedication. The best players still got where they should be, they just didn’t like being challenged ALL the way there and didn’t like sharing it. Sounds harsh – but I don’t even think it’s a particularly unfair complaint.
Personally though I think the cost of trying to make the top players have an easier journey and feel like special snowflakes is too high, and alienating too many people.

Clearly Season 1 OR Season 2 isn’t the answer. If they could have both those game modes they’d be closer. Unranked doesn’t cut it because it’s unrewarding so people aren’t invested in it enough. As such people are in there mucking around, trying new classes, new builds, experimenting etc.

First whiff of a decent alternative to GW2 that I get into… it’ll be a final fairwell to a game I’ve had a lot of enjoyment from if things don’t start to FEEL better.

If I’m understanding this correctly I think it would not be a good idea.

Providing equal chances does not result in equal outcomes.

Roulette:
Player 1 betting on Red
Player 2 betting on Black

Both players have equal chance of success.
However the outcome will not be equal and will be dictated by luck.

The element of time in an even chance game can make this equitable in the long run but standard deviation ruins it’s chances over a short/fixed term. And the ‘long run’ can be a long kitten time!

In a competitive environment, an uncomplicated sytem to provide real data as to a player’s performance and relative standing should be obtainable.

What this system has done is muddy the mathematical waters by trying to shoe-horn an unnecessary ‘Ranking’ template over what could otherwise be a robust, accurate, numerical representation of skill – solo queue vs premade caveats apply :-)

Eater of Peeps.9062:

I haven’t trash talked anyone. I am now in ruby on my alt. However, on my main, where I play pvp everyday, I am stuck in emerald tier 2 where I have been since day 1. My “rank up”/ladder exp on my alt was completely different than my “rank up”/ladder exp on my main re: moving/up down the ranks. You obviously haven’t experienced a losing streak and have no idea what the losing streak “unskilled” pvp players are complaining about. Until you do, you might want to think about all of the unsensitivity and harshness out there being expressed against players who have already been kicked really hard by a messed up system that penalizes losing streak players.

I might remind you, you lose as a team. Consequently, your personal mmr is adjusted according to the play motivations and skill levels of each and every one of your teammates you play with on every game. Hence, your personal mmr is based on your overall team composition and many other factors, including your personal skill and the personal skill level of all your teammates.

Many factors were present the 1st day of the season, that are not present today, including pro leagues blasting thru the system and trouncing solo quer’s (who were hardly on a level playing with them, since they couldn’t coordinate or be on ts with their teammates or have gimmicky synchronized op stomp builds) and artificially driving their mmr into the ground that day (before people figured out to stop playing if you lose a few and come back later).

Also, how do you explain that I am now, after 3 days of playing, in ruby with my alt, yet I am stuck in emerald on my main? I have breezed thru the ranks on my dh on my new alt, yet on my meta reaper main I am stuck in emerald. Am I a bad, “unskilled” player, or a good “skilled” player?

Please. You’re just riding the wave of happiness that the system projects will have a 66% win ratio if you catch a winning streak for whatever reason (especially if you do not play a lot and you started the season either new or with an above 50% win/loss ratio, or you did not play the first day, or you have the benefit of reading forums and following the advice to quit playing for a bit if you lose). Wait till you plateau. Then you will catch the losing streak, and then you will be a loser, and your mmr will tank and then you will be an “unskilled player with low mmr” stuck wherever you are (perhaps in diamond, lol, if you are lucky).

Anyway, I think there are many people out there with a significantly different experience than your own, and I do not think they are trashtalking. They are frustrated and upset (especially, if like me, you love strong ranked competition pvp) and are good players being artificially penalized. And the proposed solution of playing unranked is not satisfactory, since it has now become the training playground, where people play out new classes/skills or 1 v 1 each other in a corner of the map. Hardly the same as ranked, and hardly fun.

You may want to think about your own talk here, as it feels pretty harsh to me. I am a player who can see your point of view easily, as I have had the same type of happy experience with the seas 2 system on my alt, but I now firsthand the very real and upsetting losing/stuck experience many players on experiencing on the flip side, and rubbing their noses further by being callous is not helping the situation at all.

Well said that man… /raises glass

Is there an elephant in the room?

Exciton.8942:

Current system is trying to make your ladder place reflect your MMR.
It achieved its designed goal. But whether it creates enough fun games for everyone is very debatable.

Except it hasn’t achieved it’s design goal because players cannot go down divisions. The system cannot equalise if there isn’t complete freedom of movement in both directions.

Conspiracy: – The OP is an Anet Mole -They Want Our Silence!

But yeah… ranked is bringing out the worst in people, unranked is unrewarding, hotjoin is chaos… I’m levelling a Hunter in WoW, Gonna download BDO, will check out B&S.

And PSVR is coming!!!!!

style.6173:

Somehow the matchmaker guy figured out a way to make matches even worse in Ruby than they were in Amber. Grats ANET. That is hard to do.

Can’t go down divisions – week 1 Golden Gods can’t equalise back down.

Really in essence this isn’t a Matchmaking System it’s a Sorting System:

Rigging games so that people are slotted in where the system predetermines they should be.

Actually playing the game feels arbitrary.

For Science:
Ask your team before the game begins whether they won or lost their last game.
If the majority lost – you know what’s coming. Been doing this tonight, so far 100% accurate, over about 15 games.

style.6173:

Huttunen.8309:

I’ve been stuck in ruby t1 and t2 for four days now. Every time I’m starting to have a killstreak and things are going nicely, MMR throws a team of 4 reapers against me, and my team consists of people who seem to have no clue what they are doing. With this it feels like it’s impossible to progress anymore, and I’ve never been so frustrated at this game before

Oddly, I find that the quality of players in Ruby is lower than what I faced in Emerald. It is strange. Not sure why.

Week 1 winning streaks + can’t go back down divisions = players in Ruby who shouldn’t be there?

I had this 5 or 6 games ago in Kylo – but really, this is the thread that gets a response?

ok.

No reason you can’t have both…

Unranked becomes the reward track

Ranked for League placements

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Bearded.6485:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Could you guys at least admit that you are mostly upset you can’t make progress towards your wings and that is why you want this separate league. Otherwise all the people complaining that they don’t have balanced matches already have exactly that if you go play unranked.

You guys also don’t really care for the health of PvP or any sort of competition/ladder if you want to even further split the PvP community. Everyone is saying how the population has dropped so much and now you want to further dilute the population with an extra league?

Ok so lets be honest, about 80% of the league doesn’t give a kitten about fun competetive match ups. We want to progress thru our tiers and get the back pack. I don’t give a kitten about pretty little titles or black diamond bullkitten.

Hell if I ever get the back piece Ill either turn it off or transmute it, because like all the other back pieces that skin sucks.

Oh I know, based on the amount of complaining this season Anet’s only chance next season will be season 2 match making but rewarding 1 pip for a loss, 3 for a win and miraculously everyone will praise the amazing system.

Actually I think the OP will give everyone what they want.

Pyriall.1683:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Pyriall.1683:

BrotherBelial.3094:

We had a similar discussion in another thread.

The solution we came up with is as follows.
Have Unranked, league ranked, and pro league ranked. So if you want to work on your back pack you can with S1 in the league ranked, and the S2 set up in the Pro league. That way the people who think they are pro can go find out, and the rest of us that know we are average at best can play the ranked. Then when we’ve had our fill we can go.play unranked.

Here we go…another everyone deserves a medal mom.

I don’t see how it is. But hay, feel free to come up with another way to keep everyone happy. There can always be a special shinny, or title for the “pro” players. Will that make you feel like a special snowflake?

Why even play? If you want everyone to get everything, just let everyone log in with the option to hit a single button and get every achievement/piece of gear possible. Some people don’t deserve to receive what others do. Not everyone deserves a bloody trophy.

Yeah so take the rewards out of the ‘Pro-League’ (currently Ranked) – let people play for League Position.

Put the reward track into a 50/50 matchmaker game mode – how is everybody not happy with that?

Casuals kept from ruining Pro-League (currently Ranked) by not needing to play there for their reward-track items.
Pro-League players being able to go for the rewards too in th 50/50game mode if they want where they SHOULD have to play challenging games, every game.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Littlefeather.8623:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Unranked actually still uses the same matchmaking system that was used in season 1 so in essence it serves the exact same purpose minus progress on the wing backpack. If you want 50/50 match ups go play unranked.

Here is a question if they implemented a separate league that used the exact same setup as season 1 would you play it if it did not award you any progress towards your legendary back pack? If your answer is no then my point stands.

People like you didn’t like the pre Dec 2014 MMR did you?…

I have been playing since beta and my ranked/unranked win percent has been a steady 56-60% purely solo queuing with maybe 10 guild matches thrown in for missions and I have never really had a problem with the match making. All I am noticing this season is that the quality of my team has risen substantially.

Also I see you avoided the question which gives me my answer.

I’m not going to spell this out – but….. /facepalm

Someone tell him…. I’m out.

Face palm all you want but win percentage has nothing to do with MMR (at least originally) it has to do with the quality of opponents you win and lose against. I don’t even claim to be that good of PvPer, but the amount of whining by some of you on this forum is astonishing and I would have less of a problem with it if people would at least be honest about their intentions.

Lots of people like to hide behind the guise of wanting fair matches and a competitive system when really they just want to grind up the ladder and get their shinies. As stated above its a competitive ladder there is going to be winners and losers.

Gosh darn it you’re a smart one… everything you say is right. All the assumptions you make about people are right. They are just being dishonest when they tell you themselves that your assumptions are wrong.

I /facepalmed because you’re progress is only as good as the team you are put on. This is why there are a lot of good players sitting around in lower ranks than they should be. You cannot go down divisions so players who benefited by being put on good teams (ahem) will not equalise downwards when they hit the wrong side of the bell-curve, bell-end.

g’night.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Littlefeather.8623:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Unranked actually still uses the same matchmaking system that was used in season 1 so in essence it serves the exact same purpose minus progress on the wing backpack. If you want 50/50 match ups go play unranked.

Here is a question if they implemented a separate league that used the exact same setup as season 1 would you play it if it did not award you any progress towards your legendary back pack? If your answer is no then my point stands.

People like you didn’t like the pre Dec 2014 MMR did you?…

I have been playing since beta and my ranked/unranked win percent has been a steady 56-60% purely solo queuing with maybe 10 guild matches thrown in for missions and I have never really had a problem with the match making. All I am noticing this season is that the quality of my team has risen substantially.

Also I see you avoided the question which gives me my answer.

I’m not going to spell this out – but….. /facepalm

Someone tell him…. I’m out.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Unranked actually still uses the same matchmaking system that was used in season 1 so in essence it serves the exact same purpose minus progress on the wing backpack. If you want 50/50 match ups go play unranked.

Here is a question if they implemented a separate league that used the exact same setup as season 1 would you play it if it did not award you any progress towards your legendary back pack? If your answer is no then my point stands.

You are so off the mark it’s unbelievable and I won’t let you troll me.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt one time…

Theorise all you like Unranked is not fun, people don’t take it serious ENOUGH. Most people agree that the games in Season 1 were balanced. This infact was is biggest flaw because High MMR players shouldn’t be finding it challenging to get out of Amber.

Anet could just scrap Unranked and turn THAT into the Season 1 set-up.
Put all the reward tracking into that.

Pro-League players don’t want casual, back-pack hunting, dallies achievement players in the League anyway. Pro League should be about the competition – being a top tier player.

I couldn’t give 2 hoots about a back pack. I just want to be able to log into GW2 and KNOW I’m going to have a good, fun game where I’m playing in a balanced match. Personally I would absolutely still play the Pro-League, and it could be as brutal as it likes.

If you can’t log in KNOWING you can have a few fun, evenly balanced games, I think I speak for a lot of players when I say I won’t be hanging around.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Could you guys at least admit that you are mostly upset you can’t make progress towards your wings and that is why you want this separate league. Otherwise all the people complaining that they don’t have balanced matches already have exactly that if you go play unranked.

You guys also don’t really care for the health of PvP or any sort of competition/ladder if you want to even further split the PvP community. Everyone is saying how the population has dropped so much and now you want to further dilute the population with an extra league?

WoW you could not have possibly been more wrong.

The fact that you think Unranked serves anything like the same purpose as Season 1 is surprising.

Having somewhere you can play a 50/50 game, whatever level you are and just play for fun is essential to a game’s health.

Having a separate Pro-League would mean that Pro-League could be as uncompromising as it needs to be in order to be a serious E-sport.

If you think that this would mean not enough players would play Pro-League – you’re kind of arguing with yourself.

I think people would take Pro-League seriously and not just play that mode because the other modes suck, thus sabotaging more serious players games.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Could you guys at least admit that you are mostly upset you can’t make progress towards your wings and that is why you want this separate league. Otherwise all the people complaining that they don’t have balanced matches already have exactly that if you go play unranked.

You guys also don’t really care for the health of PvP or any sort of competition/ladder if you want to even further split the PvP community. Everyone is saying how the population has dropped so much and now you want to further dilute the population with an extra league?

Cool – thnx

Just re-instate season 2 Ranked (50/50 matchmaking)

Have a separate Pro-League

Needs to be a place you can go to just have a good, fun game with balanced teams.

Fun first, Esport second or game will die.

Demandred.7930:

The system is currently in disequilibrium, this will resolve itself over time. After X games, our final division placement should be an accurate reflection of our MMR. That is, most people will get lots of even matches eventually.

This is not the case because you cannot go down divisions. People who winning streaked up during the imbalance will not sink back down again.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

I cry for you , Hope your matches improve.

lol… thanks man, I feel better for sharing…

Over and over and over and over….

Players on my team with literally NO clue, none.

Last game… The scene is set…

I’m on thief

It’s Forest Map…

We got a Necro and DH, and Druid, and Ele

It’s good times…

I say hi and offer to take close and solo beast
….gotta take beast because if I don’t you know they will.

They say hi back.

Count down…

3…2…1….

And they’re off

Dragon Hunter comes straight over to close… yay let’s hold hands…

So I’m out

Gonna head towards mid

gonna +1 that kitten

I’m taking the back entrance…. thief stylez

What’s this

My 3 com-padres are giving the good fight with Svanir

Of course, that tough wee PVE Boss, the little minx

OOOOh those 25points

Gotta have ’em

Thankyou Matchmaker, I’ve found my spiritual skill level… I’m learning self control, patience, a sense of humour, a resigned acceptance in the face of phuk-wittery.

I accept my fellow man… even if he’s a pratt

BrotherBelial.3094:

Interesting, do you mean you would like 3 choice’s? Unranked, Ranked league and a pro ranked league?

^^^ Absolutely this.

‘Unranked’ would be as it is – random as all hell… somewhere to try things out but still be pretty much guaranteed 5v5 consistently – which you don’t get in Hotjoin.

‘Ranked’ would be much like Season 1 – the back-pack item would be obtainable here as well. The algorithm would find you games based on a 50/50 chance of winning so everyone can get a decent challenging game anytime they like.
They’d be progression, and fun. The Ranks would be more of an indication of your experience and dedication.
It would also be the de-facto place to play once you’d reached your ‘Brick Wall’ in ‘Pro League’.

‘Pro League’ would be where you could go to find out just where you actually sit in the ‘food chain’. Everyone would do it to see where they measured up and it wouldn’t feel like an un-rewarding grind because everyone would EXPECT to only get so far.
Solo Queue’rs would not do as well, but that’s the nature of the ‘Pro League’. Bring a 5 man team if you want to take it seriously. It could be everything an Esport League needs to be because it could do it uncompromisingly. No propping players up in divisions they cannot drop out of. It could be brutal and that would be fine, as hardcore as you like.

R O C.6574:

shion.2084:

It was setting you fights you had roughly a 50% chance of winning before. So if you were of any particular skill level you could reach diamond because you’d mostly be fighting against people of that skill level and with, ie. on your team, people of that skill level.

Now it only ensures you fight with people it thinks are at your skill level, not against people who are of your skill level. So you can end up in matches it’s pretty kitten sure you are going to lose.

And if you lose, it re-adjusts its estimation of your skill level down and will team you with worse people. So you will just lose more.

So, if I lose a game that the matchmaking thought I was supposed to lose, my MMR still goes down? That doesn’t seem right. I would think that your MMR should only go down if you lose a game you were supposed to win.

Evidence would suggest otherwise… Also what about all the winners who get put into progressively higher brackets? Is their MMR not changing either because they are winning fights they are supposed to win?
MMR is supposed to be sensitive to a persons chances to win, however the ‘streaks’ that this system has created will certainly have an effect.

Anyone who plays online chess will know that losing against opponents who are significantly higher rated still has a negative effect on your own rating. Multiply that by 10-15 losses and it would be a sizeable drop.

Season 1 was fun for a lot of people – yes it rewarded players just for taking part but behind the facade so does Season 2 by not exposing people to the consequences of their losing streaks and letting people go DOWN a division.

Anyway… One of the reasons sooo many people, casual, average players are up in arms about this Season 2 is because there isn’t an alternative.
Hotjoin and Unranked are an aweful place for people like the average PVP’er who:

1). Does not want to just muck around
2). Does not want to take it SUPER seriously

Season 1 gave these people a great environment – generally good quality matches and consistent progression. It was fun.

Give it back.

Then – ADDITIONALLY, lets get SUPER SERIOUS… in a League much like Season 2 where we KNOW we’re going to hit a wall at some point, and that’s OK because that’s our place in the Major League.

So we could have ‘Ranked’ (Season 1), and ‘Pro League’ (Season 2)

It shouldn’t be an ‘either/or’ scenario and I personally can’t see how they are going to please everybody in one League.

Any takers?

(…just putting this here because people don’t read whole threads….)

‘Unranked’ would be as it is – random as all hell… somewhere to try things out but still be pretty much guaranteed 5v5 consistently – which you don’t get in Hotjoin.

‘Ranked’ would be much like Season 1 – the back-pack item would be obtainable here as well. The algorithm would find you games based on a 50/50 chance of winning so everyone can get a decent challenging game anytime they like.
They’d be progression, and fun. The Ranks would be more of an indication of your experience and dedication.
It would also be the de-facto place to play once you’d reached your ‘Brick Wall’ in ‘Pro League’.

‘Pro League’ would be where you could go to find out just where you actually sit in the ‘food chain’. Everyone would do it to see where they measured up and it wouldn’t feel like an un-rewarding grind because everyone would EXPECT to only get so far.
Solo Queue’rs would not do as well, but that’s the nature of the ‘Pro League’. Bring a 5 man team if you want to take it seriously.
It could be everything an Esport League needs to be because it could do it uncompromisingly. No propping players up in divisions they cannot drop out of. It could be brutal and that would be fine, as hardcore as you like.

Salamander.2504:

SqualZell.7813:

ok time for an unbiased statement

It doesn’t matter if you think the system is good or is bad or just don’t care. from what I am seeing on the forums and in game map chats there are more players disgruntled with the new system than players who think it’s fine.

Obviously the top players who got to the top where they should be are happy about it. lets take an arbitrary number of about 10%

Players that are not as good are stuck somewhere in the middle unable to advance. being stuck at some level unable to advance be it because your team mates are bad or simply because you are not up to par to go forth, there is no progression in this case.
lets take an arbitrary number of about 20%

and then you have the rest of the population, who is just not good, at least not on par with the game difficulty. these people will never leave amber no matter how much they try. again no progression.
lets take an arbitrary number of about 70%

so now you have the elite 10% that will be having fun and progressing. then you have the middle class who does not progress anymore… some will work and move up eventually. others will just quit. and then you have the base that will slowly bleed players.

in the end all you have is your 10% +-5% from the middle playing pvp… the rest will move on. either quit pvp all together (lets be serious, they won’t go back to unranked) or simply quit the game.

either way you are alienating a big chunk of your paying customers… who will not pay anymore. your 10%-15% of your elite will have long queues and be matched against each other just on rotation. and eventually those will also move on… with such bad press from a huge chunk of the GW2 community people won’t want to PvP thus you wont be able to replenish your pool of pvp players…

TL:DR.
doesn’t matter if the system is good or bad. You depend on your playerbase. It is in your best interest to keep the majority happy and paying.

Leagues are not a reward track. Not everyone is entitled to progress.

Actually my friend this League IS a reward track because you cannot go down divisions. This system requires time to equalise. There WILL be people who’ve been unlucky and will eventually rise in division. There WILL be people who have been lucky and would drop division only it’s not allowed.

Rank isn’t going to equalise becasue Anet won’t let it. Anet won’t let it because MMR is in a mess. Anet won’t let it because a lot people will be bouncing up and down like yoyo’s. Anet won’t let it because the season isn’t long enough. The shear amount of RNG at play here should be obvious. MMR is invisible because how are people going to feel when they see that they have higher MMR than people in the division above them?

Rank is like a pendulum and MMR is the force that moves it only the pendulum is being prevented from freely returning.

People are vying for meaningless gems. Some people will deserve exactly what they have, but so many won’t it will detract from their achievement anyway – just like last season but with more bad feeling.

Salamander.2504:

……..
2) Most highly-skilled players are shooting up the leagues as intended.
……..

The big problem here is that those ‘Highly Skilled Players’ are the people who got to have a decent winning streak from the offset. However when the majority of them experience the inevitable losing streak they are not going to drop in division because going down division isn’t possible.

For this system to ‘Settle down in time’ like many people keep talking about, it requires unrestricted movement DOWN as well as up.

Rank is as meaningless this season as last season.

Cynz.9437:

All is Vain is getting competition.

Haha – The Mighty Meak, indeed, All is vain. . . . .

(Putting this here as relevant):

How much we all EARN our way up the ladder is totally relative in a system like this.
It is VERY possible to be put into a lot more easy games than someone else and vice versa.
The relative difficulty and challenge that each person has in progression is very much influenced by the make up of the available players at the time they are playing.

For instance – people who enjoyed the week 1 carnage undoubtedly will have had the easiest ride of the season.
As the player base available becomes less diluted with lower skilled players progression will become more difficult.
This dilution will be as a result of you progressing up tiers and also because a lot of lower MMR players will have stopped playing Ranked games.

The ONLY reason the people who benefited from the week one carnage did so was because there was so much fodder around.
Less fodder > Less Easy wins (much earlier in the league) > Less progression.

Those who complained that they had to face difficult teams all the way from Amber up in Season 1 are pretty much going to get that situation back if this system does alienate the lower MMR player base – which it has a pretty good chance of doing.
Progression is fun – when you hit a brick wall – whether that’s in Emerald or Ruby or whatever… the fun will be less funny.

This system absolutely requires losers, lots of them, repeatedly losing.
If the current losers leave – then the next tier up the MMR chain will become the losers and should be Amber bound. Everyone’s position is relative, a Ruby player this season, especially a week one winning streaker may well take a fraction of the skill and time it takes Ruby players next season if the player population drops.

If there is a population drop and all the low MMR players do stick to playing unranked then Ruby players might just find they become the new Ambers next season or there abouts.

You’ll never know if you’ve improved from one season to the next because Rank is absolutely relative to the current player base.
This means it fluctuates like a stock market ALL the time. And because you can’t lose divisions, people who get an easy run will never actually equalise DOWN to their rightful relative position. If you’re in Ruby now and feel justified that you should be there because of Skill and you hit a losing streak but are saved from demotion to a lower division by the one-way progression system – how do you justify that by the same logic?

This is still just a reward track – just one that’s essentially driven by Losses rather than gain.

Anyone who actually likes fair, quantifiable competition cannot possible be happy with this set-up.
It’s not a good system folks… sPVP in Guild Wars 2 isn’t popular enough to sustain it. Please stop defending it – for the good of the game.

…..and because I’m still trying to earn my first pip /s

Holy lolburgers Batman i’m a golden torpedo…

I probably could have been AFK each game and we’d still have won though….

Just want to mention that how much we all EARN our way up is totally relative in a system like this.
It is VERY possible to be put into a lot more easy games than someone else and vice versa.
The relative difficulty and challenge that each person has in progression is very much influenced by the make up of the available players at the time they are playing.

For instance – people who enjoyed the week 1 carnage undoubtedly will have had the easiest ride of the season.
As the player base available becomes less diluted with lower skilled players progression will become more difficult.
This dilution will be as a result of you progressing up tiers and also because a lot of lower MMR players will have stopped playing Ranked games.

The ONLY reason the people who benefited from the week one carnage did so was because there was so much fodder around. Less fodder > Less Easy wins (much earlier in the league) > Less progression.

Those who complained that they had to face difficult teams all the way from Amber up in Season 1 are pretty much going to get that situation back if this system does alienate the lower MMR player base – which it has a pretty good chance of doing.

Progression is fun – when you hit a brick wall – whether that’s in Emerald or Ruby or whatever… the fun will be less funny.

This system absolutely requires losers, lots of them, repeatedly losing.
If the current losers leave – then the next tier up the MMR chain will become the losers and will be Amber bound. Everyone’s position is relative, a Ruby player this season, especially a week one winning streaker may well take a fraction of the skill and time it takes Ruby players next season if the player population drops.
If there is a population drop and all the low MMR players do stick to playing unranked then Ruby players might just find they become the new Ambers next season or there abouts.

You’ll never know if you’ve improved from one season to the next because Rank is absolutely relative to the current player base.

This means it fluctuates like a stock market ALL the time. And because you can’t lose divisions, people who get an easy run will never actually equalise DOWN to their rightful relative position.

Anyone who actually likes fair, quantifiable competition cannot possible be happy with this set-up.

It’s not a good system folks… sPVP in Guild Wars 2 isn’t popular enough to sustain it. Please stop defending it – for the good of the game.

…..and because I’m still trying to earn my first pip /s

Freeelancer.2860:

I mostly disagree with the message, but great poetry non the less. Bravo!

Just a bit of fun… but yeah, if people aren’t enjoying themselves, they might leave. Which would be a shame because it’s a great game!

black sun empress.7401:

maybe stop trying to be a little kitten.. join a guild, make some friends and pvp for the fun of it. im at 3000 matches, so im not pro, but not new… 50/50 win rate. i would gladly take a team of 1st timers as opposed to some self entitled prick like u. if u dont have fun while ur playing a game, its time to quit…

WOW – I don’t think that was necessary.

You know… instead of getting on your high horse, this guy is being honest.

Look at all the QQ threads about AFK’ers.

You often know you’re on the losing team within a min or 2, and I like to just keep playing, doing my thing.

BUT when I see someone going AFK at the same time as the penny has dropped for me that my team mates are clueless, I know that THAT person was probably the other decent player on the team and he turned up with good intentions, wanting some competition but got poo’d on by the system.

Then I see the guys who are still playing… and their !!!!!!‘ing in chat about do this do that… and really think they have a chance – because they’re that new.

And I keep on playing – doing my thing… but I know that the AFK’er was most likely a reasonable player and the other well intentioned folks – well… they’re learning… hopefully the system doesn’t break their enthusiasm.

TLDR – Guy comes on forum… writes honestly…. gets abused….

Johnny B Pro

I’m alright Jack
Playing games that are stacked
with my high MMR
watching you noobs pushing far

Haven’t sweated in the least
while you 5v1 beast
L2P and cry moar
go for personal score

It’s quite sweet to farm
and where’s the harm
if new players get smashed
and give up from getting thrashed

Coz i’ll have my black gem
you noobs can’t get them
coz you’re spiralling down
where you belong underground

I’m a winner that’s all
I’m just better than y’all
My advice “play unranked”
It’s OK I don’t need to be thanked

What’s that you say
reckon you’re good – “get away”
If you were then you’d win
It’s not the rest of your team!

“Look MMR wouldn’t lie
I’m the proof – see me fly
40 games not a loss,
how it should be – I’m boss”

What’s that!?
You’re all leaving?
You don’t find this fun?
It’s an honour to play us
We’re 1337 pros you dumb chump!

You can learn while we smash you,
we should charge a fee!
Pre HoT might cost nothing
But I don’t come free!

……and so johnny sits now…..
in 1 hour queues………
…..waiting for match-ups……..
…and whistling the blues……..

And I’m doing other things
having a blast
eyes to the future
wee johnny’s the past.

Salamander.2504:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

Salamander.2504:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

ronpierce.2760:

Its always people who can’t get what they want as easily as they want that have problems with anything, what’s your point?

The basis of the system is one I agree with very much. It’s not perfect, and has many of ways to be improved of, especially as we head into the next season, but lets not get all ‘woe is me’ on me here. The fact is, the people who complain the most are always the people who want more out of something, so comments like that does nothing.

People wonder why I come off as arrogant and annoyed…

Can I please just remind myself and others that the purpose of this thread was not to convince someone who chooses to argue everything that there is a problem, but to support the OP and recount our experiences.

If people want to turn up and call us self entitled, low skilled or whatever, cool…
I’m pretty sure Anet cannot be particularly pleased with the way this has gone, and recounting your experiences here will help more than having a whole thread dedicated to tit for tat with with one guy who’s been having a blast pwning noob teams and feeling like the man with golden balls.

PVP is in a mess, MMR needs a hard reset.

I’m more than happy to compete against people who are better than me and lose, but not in an environment which is purposefully stacked. Not for one game, definitely not for 20.

You realize that a hard MMR reset would make matchmaking even more chaotic, right? QQ would go through the roof.

Yeah, it’s not going to happen, but if you really wanted to start from a fair position it would be necessary, because the MMR you have should be earned in the environment you compete. Also the system has inflated/deflated people’s undeservedly through inappropriate matchups.

But yeah, it would be chaos and it is unlikely to happen.

If you haven’t already seen Sunshine’s proposal on a PvP Pre-season, I think it’s implementation would address your major concerns.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Suggestion-PvP-Preseason-before-Season/first#post6012699

That would be a difinite improvement on this for sure.

Salamander.2504:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

ronpierce.2760:

Its always people who can’t get what they want as easily as they want that have problems with anything, what’s your point?

The basis of the system is one I agree with very much. It’s not perfect, and has many of ways to be improved of, especially as we head into the next season, but lets not get all ‘woe is me’ on me here. The fact is, the people who complain the most are always the people who want more out of something, so comments like that does nothing.

People wonder why I come off as arrogant and annoyed…

Can I please just remind myself and others that the purpose of this thread was not to convince someone who chooses to argue everything that there is a problem, but to support the OP and recount our experiences.

If people want to turn up and call us self entitled, low skilled or whatever, cool…
I’m pretty sure Anet cannot be particularly pleased with the way this has gone, and recounting your experiences here will help more than having a whole thread dedicated to tit for tat with with one guy who’s been having a blast pwning noob teams and feeling like the man with golden balls.

PVP is in a mess, MMR needs a hard reset.

I’m more than happy to compete against people who are better than me and lose, but not in an environment which is purposefully stacked. Not for one game, definitely not for 20.

You realize that a hard MMR reset would make matchmaking even more chaotic, right? QQ would go through the roof.

Yeah, it’s not going to happen, but if you really wanted to start from a fair position it would be necessary, because the MMR you have should be earned in the environment you compete. Also the system has inflated/deflated people’s undeservedly through inappropriate matchups.

But yeah, it would be chaos and it is unlikely to happen.

ronpierce.2760:

Its always people who can’t get what they want as easily as they want that have problems with anything, what’s your point?

The basis of the system is one I agree with very much. It’s not perfect, and has many of ways to be improved of, especially as we head into the next season, but lets not get all ‘woe is me’ on me here. The fact is, the people who complain the most are always the people who want more out of something, so comments like that does nothing.

People wonder why I come off as arrogant and annoyed…

Can I please just remind myself and others that the purpose of this thread was not to convince someone who chooses to argue everything that there is a problem, but to support the OP and recount our experiences.

If people want to turn up and call us self entitled, low skilled or whatever, cool…
I’m pretty sure Anet cannot be particularly pleased with the way this has gone, and recounting your experiences here will help more than having a whole thread dedicated to tit for tat with with one guy who’s been having a blast pwning noob teams and feeling like the man with golden balls.

PVP is in a mess, MMR needs a hard reset.

I’m more than happy to compete against people who are better than me and lose, but not in an environment which is purposefully stacked. Not for one game, definitely not for 20.

ronpierce.2760:

Salamander.2504:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Salamander.2504:

ronpierce.2760:

I have a few questions.
1. Does unranked still use the old MMR method, where teams are attempted to be balanced?
2. Does unranked MMR gains and losses share with Ranked?

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

I don’t want to come off as rude, but I think people are really watering down what the point of having an “Unranked” and a “Ranked” even is. By no means should anyone feel like they are entitled to do well in Ranked, nor should all apply. If you wish to try to get a few ranks out of it for some rewards, by all means, but I don’t think anyone should EXPECT anything from competition.

To my second question, if they ARE indeed shared, maybe build up your MMR by practicing and getting better in Unranked and try making a static team before shooting for Ranked play. (And if not, perhaps they should be.)

+1

System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.

I do love this. But if all the “entitled” folk stop playing PvP you wont get your easy wins. Then you’ll start to lose games. Then you’ll be the ones complaining the system is not fair.
snip

No, not really. I’m already in a division (ruby) where the matchups are difficult, and I’m not complaining. No free wins here. The matchups are fair now, presumably because I’ve approached my appropriate division. System working as intended tbh.

And this is just it. It does take time to reach that point. And as people like you, and me, and whoever else, moves out of amber/emerald, they will get easier.

This is why I keep saying, this is not a system issue, but it IS a Season 2 issue, for a little while.

Beyond Season 2, we can only hope ANet handles early Division placement better than throwing everyone back into Amber, or do something to REALLY speed up early rank pip gain on win streaks (though for everyone’s sake, I propose just bumping division).

It’s been explained to you that many times but whatever… my last try:

OK so the High MMR players need to move out of the lower tiers. Fine. What isn’t fine is that the system is deliberately pitching lower MMR teams into matches that they have 0% chance of winning.
Then it further lowers the MMR of the losing team so that they get even worse team mates and the cycle continues.
It doesn’t matter that you think it’s fair. It doesn’t matter that now people are getting even matches in Ruby. The higher MMR players got there solely by rofl-stomping on lower MMR players and that is a poorly designed system.

Fair, rewarding, challenging and fun leagues can exist without alienating a large section of the player base.

Also the idea that it will become better for the lower MMR players assumes that the higher MMR players ALL start at the beginning of the system and get out of the way, which isn’t going to be the case.

Also why should average MMR players have their MMR artificially lowered by a system that set them up in impossible match-ups.

Noone is arguing that higher MMR players shouldn’t be in higher ranks but basically kittening on a large section of the player base to achieve this is totally unnecessary.

This is a screw up.

ronpierce.2760:

Lol Easter of Peeps, I’m sure you’re an amazingly skillful player.
And don’t at all seem like someone who would give up and rage at the team if they are down 50 points.

He’s frustrated because of people like you. You are clearly not very well informed and choose to ignore all the genuine frustration that a lot of people are experiencing with the current matchmaking design.

Please just go and play the game… why tickle someone’s catastrophe? People are upset that their favourite game mode is nolonger fun for them. You seem to be enjoying that. Please just close your browser and go and enjoy the game.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Average Teams don’t get matched against higher MMR teams only. Average means, there are as much higher as lower MMR players, so they can get matched against both (and against similar MMR as well of course).

You’re missing the bit about new players who know very little about PVP being allocated AVERAGE MMR hence the team might be average MMR but the skill level has been diluted too much.

brannigan.9831:

No I dont want to be a guy with 1,000 hours of pvp having teammates with 20 hours like last season. I don’t want the level of the play to be the same in amber division as diamond which it was for the most part last season. I dont understand how anything can be fairer then being grouped with people your own mmr level. This is supposed to be competitive.

What you say sounds fine.

However, take off the blinkers and see what is ACTUALLY happening here.
MMR is so monumentally phuked that it is not representing skill level. I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with being matched WITH people my own skill level and then losing, even repeatedly, to better teams. That is not what’s happening though – I’m not sure how many clearly sensible posts you need to see before you let that one sink in through your pink mist of complacency because obviously – ’You’re alright Jack".

Kako.1930:

This is the season of complete randomness. PVPing is now a form of gambling, wagering pips to see if you get the good team or the afk team lol. May RNGesus be with us all.

The only way this will even out is because all the new players who got pumped up for Season 2 Ranked have left after being decimated repeatedly in un-balanced matches.

Then all the average players who were effectively kitten by the system and by the fact that they were playing with these new players (who were automatically awarded average MMR) will be able to play with and against eachother. Of course, that is, if they haven’t left too.

Queue times for better players will go up, because a lot of those average/above average players are sitting on lower MMR than they should due to multiple unavoidable losses so the system will think the pool of better players is smaller than it is and take longer to find matches.

Ultimately there will be a population decrease and less interest in watching the Elites because the audience – the average player, doesn’t like to be so obviously treated as second class.

So the Higher MMR players will have their wish – they will have done less work to climb the league than last season. The average player PVP population base will drop. Sky won’t fall, game will go on – but it will have seriously shot itself in the foot.

Cynz.9437:

@Dirtyrascal.1023:
- old system wasn’t looking for 50/50 matches most of the time
- old system promoted farming, there was literary no difference wether you are good or bad player, you just had to farm matches; it was literary old farmboards with sprinkles

“- old system wasn’t looking for 50/50 matches most of the time”
—- It was. Like I said though, this was subject to suitable player population.

“- old system promoted farming,”
—-If ‘challenge’ was the metric for progression then people did indeed earn their positions. A 1000 MMR player vs a 1000MMR player should feel similarly challenged to a 3000MMR player vs a 3000MMR player.

Fact is higher MMR players have done nothing but FARM since season 2 started.

“…there was literary no difference wether you are good or bad player”
—-Good players still got to climb the leader boards and get where they should be, but it wasn’t SPECIAL because you could also get there just by being dedicated.

I personally feel that it is better to reward some people who may not deserve it than it is to PENALISE people who don’t deserve it. And that is the fundamental difference between season 1 and season 2.

Season 1 was not perfect. I personally think it was much healthier for the game than season 2. As I’ve said I think a system that attempts 50/50 matchmaking of opponents is the correct way to go. The area that needs looking at is the League system. For instance, there should be free flow up and down tiers and divisions at all levels, you should start the season close to where you left off the previous season.

Teutos.8620:

Evan Lesh.3295:

There are three avenues I see that can be taken:

I have a fourth avenue for you.

New players start with an MMR very close to the average of the player base

Don’t let new players start so close to the average of the player base.

^^^ This absolutely.

The combination of putting new players and average players (the majority of your player base) on one team. Then matching them against teams made up of higher only MMR players (so they can move up quicker) is creating a very lopsided PVP environment.