Glass Guardian would like a word with you.
Olrun,
I’ll admit two things right now: 1) I really liked this troll, pretty good, 2) I reported it for fun.
…the community is catching up to that special place that made a voluminous number of players leave the game since even pre-release.
Just as an aside – the only way this game could eventually be balanced in tpvp, was if every player stopped playing right now and didn’t play for the next nine months. I think that’s a reasonable amount of time to let the company catch up to the people who know the game inside and out. Almost forgot, sorry, most of those people are gone (maybe one or two remain).
They can start by answering legitimate questions instead of giving out infractions/removing posts because they’re too embarrassed to admit that they’re wrong.
Stop being jealous of my infractions.
I like how satire threads are more amicable and pleasing than the ones providing suggestions for a better gaming experience.
Did you play Diablo 2? Name looks familiar.
I think the notes are true, to be honest.
Rather than tone down AoE power, they increase it.
Rather than slow balancing, let’s shift the entire game in another direction in terms of power.
Rather than bringing things down, methodically, in terms of power, let’s throw balance darts at the wall and see what happens.
Rather than leaving DPS guard alone, let’s buff it.
Ele was a torturous class to play against at release both in terms of raw power, survivability, and cantrips, let’s bring it back.
Rather than using root cause analysis to problem solve the imbalances, let’s employ jenga balance.
I don’t mean to be overly rude, negative, or derogatory, but this sounds like A.Net.
Why would you guys buff dps guard? Seriously. Really…? No reason.
I’ll address that.
Or you could ask for a channel? And, maybe, not give out the password?
I’m pretty sure this is a troll. Worse than my troll attempts.
If this is not a troll, it should be evident to every person ever why nothing constructive happens in this section.
I just played a TPvP game after a long time, and I didn’t get anything for winning in Team Q, I got an error saying “Roster not found” or something like that. What the heck?
That was actually the update for GW2: win or lose, you get nothing but, maybe, the satisfaction of winning a match.
@OP:
Are you talking about TEAM queue? If so everyone know that leaderboard is for TEAMS. Not sure the issue.
Yes, OP, the individually divided, non-team separated, leaderboard is for teams. Contrary to the fact that its implementation is more akin to a solo q leader board.
I was just thinking the same thing.
I’m still wording my goodbye letter.
John Peters runs a 5 signet warrior, no joke – this should give you some indication as to why warrior is the way it is.
Evan plays PvE unless coaxed into tpvp with easy wins. ;P
Funny story,
That was true for a while, but, man, do warriors answer everything at this point. Healing Signet is the most grievous offender by far.
your game is in trouble, when you can’t find Bry in HotM anymore.
Thanks, Arena Net, for ending my bromance.
itm just abandoned the game, much like a large portion of the playerbase
Gnarlie Sheen was here…
Bear was here…
Also, particle effects are so lopsided and screen cluttering. Any pro player is going to use jungle wurm finisher because it has the most screen clutter.
Oh, clint, I can only do so much. Even before the last 4 months occurred, it was an uphill battle. Now, it’s just a disappointment.
Also, Izzy Cartwright, where are you, my long lost hero?
Gnarlie Sheen was here…
Bear was here…
Also, this is the same progress GW1 had…only GW1 was salvageable for a time.
PvP players are the vocal minority because the money isn’t there…even though one of the top suggestions has been to outright gem purchase skins from the pvp lockers. Black lion chests and keys are the top sellers in the BLTP and PvP’ers cannot compete with that type of income.
Honestly, bring Izzy to a balance meeting – it’s our only hope.
Sounds like we got a team in the making.
I miss GW1 streaming patches…things were amazing then…
Izzy C. on balance…the euphoria; Gaile Gray visiting pvp only forums and the vocal minority; the good old days
That’s okay, we join TS3 but we just mute the voip and play the game without talking to each other.
TS3: bearcave.enjinvoice.com
Community Website: gw2central.enjin.com
Jock is currently looking to fill out the last three positions of the all warrior team.
We currently have Bry playing a mending gs/lb, and Bear on Axe/Sword zerker.
The last three positions are any warrior you want to play, since they can do anything better than any other class.
Respond here or in-game.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-Bear-Document/page/7#post3439923
Halfway down page 7 starts a brief synopsis of the power creep in guild wars 2 pvp.
At least people finally agree there is power creep.
It’s been obvious for a long time and I’m tired of arguing with people about the existence of power creep in GW2 tpvp.
The “bread” will be my triumphant return to rank 1 solo q for NA. I, as well, will stream my tribulations as I endure them.
Bear, could you please show us the builds that you have been using to get yourself from Rank 1 on the Solo Leaderboards all the way to the 79th percentile?
Thank you in advance. And remember to always…
Do your best, bear.
Acandis,
My falling in solo q is directly proportional to the number of times that I did not run a warrior with healing signet and, in fact, played a number of classes I am not good at with builds that were speculative in terms of relative power.
Such builds include, but are not limited to: a condi ele, a power/condi hybrid ele, zerker spirit ranger (1k short bow auto attack damage sounds good…rofl), a 100b warrior using the stance heal, jihad staff ele, playing any engineer build like reevz (a.k.a not well), bunker necro, bunker thief, life steal thief, duelist thief – alongside some others that I cannot recall at the moment. Each build variation was accompanied by, probably, about 5 to 10 games (at least half of which were losses).
Honestly, this is why I suggested the AoE cap for tpvp be increased to at least 8 units, as a hedge against builds like this. Five minions and the player means that adequate positioning will ensure that either he is never touched or his favorite minion gets hit less.
@xoom – the damage part of the leech is influenced by power, thats’s why he’s wearing a carrion. The healing portion of the leech is influenced by healing power.
Swapping characters mid-match in solo/team q. should not be allowed to occur. If you dc’d, you were able to join the match in progress with the character you first entered with.
With the runes – I think I’m using Ogre atm.
I really liked the strategic options he went with, with that particular iteration of his build.
I went a different direction:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VNg-FR;0k2l51U7JV-71;9;4JTJ;016-17948;5U-V0U;1F-03F-035By
Straight deeps yo
I found the screenshot from the community website Bry:
http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1386170440_gw027.jpg
E-drama so gud.
Also, you left out Shnooki: “Did you guys see that Mind Wrack? I’m so gud.”
Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye
qft
qfqft
qfqfqft
Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye
qft
#Haiba
Haha,
Yea, I know Ken. When looking at the full definition, my focus is on the “progressive unbalancing of the game.” Whenever we talk about it in tpvp, this is what we mean. Also, balance patches constitute new content, to an extent, and, with regards to warrior, this is a true definition. When looking at other changes that were unbalanced, the first clause certainly holds.
It does because nothing should be “aw kitten, they brought x, y can you reroll as z.” And, currently, that is what we have. The hard and soft counter argument is relevant, I agree, but to a much lesser extent. In earlier patches, the creep was not as evident and meaningful as it is now. You have a two to three builds that, at the moment, currently push a couple of classes completely out of the game – previously, this was not the case.
When you bring up previous iterations of the game, with regards to balance patches, we were closer to balance around April.
Additionally, power creep is a generalized unbalancing of the game, not specific to just increases in power. Using the warrior as a prime example is only one example. Choosing to ignore the other changes is just being facetious.
@ Qaelyn – when we had previous patches that had a rough balancing, which could be seen from every class being displayed and utilized in competitive gameplay, to a point where those classes are pushed out because of build versus build issues – that is indeed a characterization of power creep.
It’s a bit further than that in terms of power creep. There is a distinct type of r/p/s right now in terms of build versus build with very few builds being relegated to skill versus skill without an uneven match up or inherent build strengths.
Anytime a game devolves into r/p/s that is power creep. The only outlier in r/p/s is player skill but the discrepancy needs to be huge in order to account of the uphill battle either way.
It isn’t an insult because the rest of the statement is “relative.”
It’s meant that if the community becomes larger again, people have the potential and opportunity to progress in terms of skill.
It’s not meant as an insult – it’s simple math.
As a community shrinks in volume, so too does the skill level of those playing. Without innovation, variation in strategies and team builds, et cetera, the extent to which you can progress as a skillful player is diminished. This also involves meta-game stagnation as well – less people, less innovation, less counters, less everything.
I’m not even good at this game, and I can say with a level of objectivity that the people playing today, only a small handful play as well as those who have left the game.
Previous to the introduction of Dhuumfire, condi builds going into the spite line where usually only for Spinal Shivers – freeing up anywhere from 10 to 30 trait points.
No one playing the game right now is playing at a high enough level of skill to say with certainty whether or not a build is tournament viable – especially map specific tournament viability.
Heads up, the people “decent” at the game now…you know where I’m going with this.
Our first example of power creep is the warrior, unsurprisingly. The build under examination is the longbow/hammer/healing signet/fear me/berserker stance/balanced stance and involves, at least, 20 trait points in defense and 30 trait points in discipline.
Let’s examine the updates:
17 September 2012
Smoldering Arrow: This skill’s casting time has been reduced.
December 14, 2012
Hammer Shock: This skill can now be used while moving.
Increased the velocity of arrows fired from Longbow skills by 30%.
February 26, 2013
Smoldering Arrow: This ability is now a full projectile finisher.
Healing Signet: Reduced low-level healing for this signet without changing healing at higher levels. This signet now heals for 12 points at level 2 instead of 25 and then scales up to heal for 200 points at level 80
April 30, 2013
Added new Adept major trait, Defense (II): Dogged March—Incoming immobilize, chill, and cripple conditions are reduced by 33%. Gain 3 seconds of regeneration when you are crippled, chilled, or immobilized. This effect can trigger only once every 10 seconds. This trait replaces Turtle’s Defense.
Added new Grandmaster major trait, Discipline (XII): Destruction of the Empowered—Damage is increased by 3% per unique boon on the warrior’s target.
Quick Bursts and Adrenal Reserves traits: Combined into one trait, Burst Mastery (XI).
June 25th, 2013
Skull Crack: Increased the stun duration from 1, 1.5, 2 to 1, 2, 3. Increased the damage by 50%
Endure Pain: Reduced the recharge from 90 seconds to 60 seconds.
Dolyak Signet: This is now an instant stun breaker.
Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.
Balanced Stance: This now also applies swiftness.
Hammer Shock: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds.
Staggering Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Backbreaker: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Crushing Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .2 seconds.
“Fear Me!”: Reduced the recharge to 60 seconds.
Adrenal Health: This trait now scales with healing power:
Cleansing Ire: New Master tier trait with the following effects: Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent
July 9th , 2013
Berserker Stance: The duration of this skill has been increased from 4 to 8 seconds.
July 23rd, 2013
Healing Signet (Passive): Reworked the formula that this passive heal uses. At level 80, this skill goes from 392 healing per 3 seconds to 467 healing per 3 seconds with 1500 healing power.
October 15, 2013
Staggering Blow: This skill can now be used while moving. Reduced the cast time to 0.5 seconds.
December 10, 2013
Combustive Shot: Increased the pulse duration to 3 seconds. Increased the burn duration per pulse to 3 seconds.
I did not have the notation of when Destruction of the Empowered was lowered to master tier, but that was also a relative buff in power. Overall, there is an inherent increase in both relative survivability and damage potential. Additionally, the increases in relative power of the build occurred in several aspects of game mechanics – control effects, conditions, resistance to control effects, resistance to conditions, and mathematical increases measured damage per second potentials.
The ability to measure the progression of each class and each class relative to the notion of power creep is not only incredibly possible, but necessary to track in order to balance the game.
When you map out the progression of other classes with regards to balance, there is a clear track to where we are now in the game, in terms of balance, and where balance potential existed in previous patches – as a whole and with individual classes.
As rough examples of class progression we have the following:
Elementalist – overall net decrease in survivability/highest volume of stealth nerfs
Thief – complete reliance on the critical strikes trait line for tournament-viable builds
Guardian – pigeon-holed role in terms of tournament viability (despite unnecessary buffs to DPS guard structures)
Ranger – complete reliance on the Wilderness Survival trait line for tournament viable builds/survivability
Warrior – overall net increase in both survivability and damage potential
Necromancer – convergence of several different build variations resulting in one true condition build
Mesmer – requires Deceptive Evasion for viability
Engineer – I’m really tired right now.
We need to start with a few overviews here on account of some confusion during some of the discussions that have taken place.
Power creep is the slow, and often missed, unbalancing of a game. Elements of power creep can be seen when huge shifts in relative power occur and, specific to Guild Wars 2, is most noticeable when specific classes are near-unplayable in a particular meta. Moreover, huge shifts in power usually occur in two ways: incrementally as results of various rebalances (i.e. nerf versus buff) or when larger changes to mechanical functions occur.
Skill and trait balance requires that no combination is overpowered relative to other combinations in such a fashion that they become a mainstay, necessary, and unstoppable (or near unstoppable) as a view of counterplay options. Balance requires that there be advantages sought in particular builds but also disadvantages that provide for both build variability, viability, and counterplay options as evidenced by both relative skill floors and ceilings.
Additionally, incomparables are those skills and traits that are so vastly different from each other that a comparison between the two amounts to a comparison between apples and oranges – in this case it’s more like a comparison of Fear Me and Shadow Step. The relative power of the skills depends on the scenario in which they are employed, how they are utilized, and the skill of the player. Balancing incomparables does employ math but also needs to be accompanied with an analysis of the relating game mechanic that makes it incomparable to other skills.
As a further investigation of what constitutes an incomparable, I mentioned both Fear Me and Shadow Step. Fear Me involves two game mechanics: Fear as a control effect (that is also a condition) and that it is unblockable. Shadow Step also involves two game mechanics: teleportation and the breaking of control effects.
So, there are a few components that go into both the perception of potential power creep, but also judging whether or not it exists.
Power creep is the interaction between the natural evolution of the tools available versus whether or not previous tool are obsolete or remain viable versus the creation and/or maintenance of choice opportunities that still matter with regards to judging incomparables and how those incomparables can increase skill caps. When power creep begins to appear a couple of things accompany it: stale and predictable meta-builds and rock/paper/scissor-style match ups that favor build versus build rather than skill versus skill – relatively speaking.
Our first example of power creep is the warrior, unsurprisingly. The build under examination is the longbow/hammer/healing signet/fear me/berserker stance/balanced stance and involves, at least, 20 trait points in defense and 30 trait points in discipline.
Let’s examine the updates:
17 September 2012
Smoldering Arrow: This skill’s casting time has been reduced.
December 14, 2012
Hammer Shock: This skill can now be used while moving.
Increased the velocity of arrows fired from Longbow skills by 30%.
February 26, 2013
Smoldering Arrow: This ability is now a full projectile finisher.
Healing Signet: Reduced low-level healing for this signet without changing healing at higher levels. This signet now heals for 12 points at level 2 instead of 25 and then scales up to heal for 200 points at level 80
April 30, 2013
Added new Adept major trait, Defense (II): Dogged March—Incoming immobilize, chill, and cripple conditions are reduced by 33%. Gain 3 seconds of regeneration when you are crippled, chilled, or immobilized. This effect can trigger only once every 10 seconds. This trait replaces Turtle’s Defense.
Added new Grandmaster major trait, Discipline (XII): Destruction of the Empowered—Damage is increased by 3% per unique boon on the warrior’s target.
Quick Bursts and Adrenal Reserves traits: Combined into one trait, Burst Mastery (XI).
June 25th, 2013
Skull Crack: Increased the stun duration from 1, 1.5, 2 to 1, 2, 3. Increased the damage by 50%
Endure Pain: Reduced the recharge from 90 seconds to 60 seconds.
Dolyak Signet: This is now an instant stun breaker.
Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.
Balanced Stance: This now also applies swiftness.
Hammer Shock: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds.
Staggering Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Backbreaker: Reduced the aftercast by .25 seconds.
Crushing Blow: Reduced the aftercast by .2 seconds.
“Fear Me!”: Reduced the recharge to 60 seconds.
Adrenal Health: This trait now scales with healing power:
Cleansing Ire: New Master tier trait with the following effects: Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent
July 9th , 2013
Berserker Stance: The duration of this skill has been increased from 4 to 8 seconds.
July 23rd, 2013
Healing Signet (Passive): Reworked the formula that this passive heal uses. At level 80, this skill goes from 392 healing per 3 seconds to 467 healing per 3 seconds with 1500 healing power.
October 15, 2013
Staggering Blow: This skill can now be used while moving. Reduced the cast time to 0.5 seconds.
December 10, 2013
Combustive Shot: Increased the pulse duration to 3 seconds. Increased the burn duration per pulse to 3 seconds.
I did not have the notation of when Destruction of the Empowered was lowered to master tier, but that was also a relative buff in power. Overall, there is an inherent increase in both relative survivability and damage potential. Additionally, the increases in relative power of the build occurred in several aspects of game mechanics – control effects, conditions, resistance to control effects, resistance to conditions, and mathematical increases measured damage per second potentials.
The ability to measure the progression of each class and each class relative to the notion of power creep is not only incredibly possible, but necessary to track in order to balance the game.
When you map out the progression of other classes with regards to balance, there is a clear track to where we are now in the game, in terms of balance, and where balance potential existed in previous patches – as a whole and with individual classes.
As rough examples of class progression we have the following:
Elementalist – overall net decrease in survivability/highest volume of stealth nerfs
Thief – complete reliance on the critical strikes trait line for tournament-viable builds
Guardian – pigeon-holed role in terms of tournament viability (despite unnecessary buffs to DPS guard structures)
Ranger – complete reliance on the Wilderness Survival trait line for tournament viable builds/survivability
Warrior – overall net increase in both survivability and damage potential
Necromancer – convergence of several different build variations resulting in one true condition build
Mesmer – requires Deceptive Evasion for viability
Engineer – I’m really tired right now.
We need to start with a few overviews here on account of some confusion during some of the discussions that have taken place.
Power creep is the slow, and often missed, unbalancing of a game. Elements of power creep can be seen when huge shifts in relative power occur and, specific to Guild Wars 2, is most noticeable when specific classes are near-unplayable in a particular meta. Moreover, huge shifts in power usually occur in two ways: incrementally as results of various rebalances (i.e. nerf versus buff) or when larger changes to mechanical functions occur.
Skill and trait balance requires that no combination is overpowered relative to other combinations in such a fashion that they become a mainstay, necessary, and unstoppable (or near unstoppable) as a view of counterplay options. Balance requires that there be advantages sought in particular builds but also disadvantages that provide for both build variability, viability, and counterplay options as evidenced by both relative skill floors and ceilings.
Additionally, incomparables are those skills and traits that are so vastly different from each other that a comparison between the two amounts to a comparison between apples and oranges – in this case it’s more like a comparison of Fear Me and Shadow Step. The relative power of the skills depends on the scenario in which they are employed, how they are utilized, and the skill of the player. Balancing incomparables does employ math but also needs to be accompanied with an analysis of the relating game mechanic that makes it incomparable to other skills.
As a further investigation of what constitutes an incomparable, I mentioned both Fear Me and Shadow Step. Fear Me involves two game mechanics: Fear as a control effect (that is also a condition) and that it is unblockable. Shadow Step also involves two game mechanics: teleportation and the breaking of control effects.
So, there are a few components that go into both the perception of potential power creep, but also judging whether or not it exists.
Power creep is the interaction between the natural evolution of the tools available versus whether or not previous tool are obsolete or remain viable versus the creation and/or maintenance of choice opportunities that still matter with regards to judging incomparables and how those incomparables can increase skill caps. When power creep begins to appear a couple of things accompany it: stale and predictable meta-builds and rock/paper/scissor-style match ups that favor build versus build rather than skill versus skill – relatively speaking.