Guild Wars 2

Forsaken.7015:

If you focus solely in condi damage then your the one taking the risk but to QQ because said class counters me is ridiculous. DS is very situational. Strong vs a condi build but useless vs a power build. Far from Overpowered. Smart players have no problem dealing with it. Your the one that wants to run the condi flavor of the month if you cant do 1500 damage and save your condi burst till after. Then maybe you should reconsider your strat.

Maybe you should listen to what is actually being said. Diamond Skin is horribly designed on two fronts.

1. It guarantees wins against entire build types. This isn’t having a strong advantage in a fight, this is literally a garunteed victory. This functionality is horridly OP.

2. It is worthless in any other fight. This isn’t reduced effectiveness, it is no effect. This functionality is horridly UP.

Changing the trait would fix both problems. The trait would ideally no longer guarantee wins against condition builds, but it would also be a good defensive option against other builds that use conditions as side-effects, like immobilize or weakness.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nike.2631:

Maybe we could get a new set of runes that give super-speed on shout similar to trapper runes giving super-speed on trap placement.

Could be cool, but Shouts already have a rune set.

So? That is a defensive shout set, why not add an offensive shout rune with Power/Ferocity and Fury/Super Speed on Shout use?

I’d rather see rune sets for things like Wells and physicals.

ronpierce.2760:

I’m still not sure I understand why people overlook Flame Legion as an option with the new build potential.

Probably because it necessitates one of your lines be Soul Reaping and locks a Grandmaster to get any benefit. Yes, Soul Reaping is great, but it isn’t necessary on all builds.

Alhadin.4032:

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.
I dont like this trait myself. And IF I take earth line, there is much better grandmaster trait then DS.

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team? And 2vs1 you eat 1500 health anyway.

Which is another reason to change the trait.

Let’s face it: nobody likes the trait as it is. People fighting the Ele don’t like it because, if it applies, they literally can’t do anything and have no chance of winning that fight. Eles don’t like it because unless they are fighting a condi build, the trait does absolutely nothing.

So, the trait needs a rework to be less binary.

Nike.2631:

Maybe we could get a new set of runes that give super-speed on shout similar to trapper runes giving super-speed on trap placement.

Could be cool, but Shouts already have a rune set.

Hammerguard.9834:

Tbh sig necro is indeed a hard counter to condis.

Hard counter, yes, but condition builds can still win with out-playing the Necro. For example, 1 stack of vuln, bleeding, and a cripple will proc Plague Sending for barely any effect, so that’s one key transfer wasted.

I’ve run the numbers before on Diamond Skin and, at least on Necro, the condi build (using Carrion gear, FYI, so decent Power) actually can’t beat a Diamond Skin ele sitting in water attunement and doing nothing but auto-attack (not even moving around or dodging). The ele heals up the little bit of direct damage too fast for the Necro to break Diamond Skin.

This trait is probably the one most in need of a rework in the entire game. It needs actual counterplay, but it also needs to be more useful against a greater variety of builds.

Tim.6450:

T raw.4658:

Solution is simple:

Make Condi builds require 3 non tank stats for optimal damage to achieve the condi bomb.

I’m sure eveyone would be ok with high condi damage if the player applying it is as glassy as a DPS burst player.

Precision, condition damage and condition duration? Also do you have any proof that dire builds outdamage soldier builds by a significant margin?

Numerical proof and calculations is what we’re looking for, not stories.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Robert gee seems to be conservative in his balancing decisions so I don’t see him ruining reaper. In any case it does matter if it happens it happens.

Not so much conservative (his changes to Reaper and Necro traits were pretty significant) as wanting most things to be viable.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Except that LoS would normally be preventing the Necro from critting you in the first place.

unless the necro was using some aoe mark to hit you
or ds 4

Life Transfer still respects LoS, though Transfusion, interestingly, does not. This change has extremely little actual effect on counterplay.

It also is not the focus of this thread.

style.6173:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

style.6173:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

At first I sensed a lot of animosity in this thread but it seems to be dwindling now. I played condi when I first started and then realized it wasn’t a viable focus because conditions were too easily removed before they could serious damage and the defensive stats didn’t compensate for how slowly you killed people. Now, in my perspective at least, condi burst and power burst are nearly comparable unless you consider players with cleanses and higher reaction time. That’s when condi falls short.

I’m totally loving that damage conditions are scary at the moment. I LOVE DoT classes and I always have in any MMO or RPG I’ve ever played.

A single condi can be cleared. Any good condi player hits with multiple condis. Even better if they can use those other condi to cover their burns.

Anyone who doesn’t realize that condi builds are easier to play is just fooling themselves. Condis do too much damage given that someone can also spec defensively with that condi build.

So, why don’t we see them in tourneys? If their skill : reward ratio is so low, we should see the really skilled ones dominating. And I can garuntee you that there are really skilled condition players.

You probably need to watch tournaments more often. dd ele and burn guardian are both considered meta.

Only burn guardian is a condition build. D/D ele is a hybrid build. And Burn Guardians really don’t do fantastically in those tourneys either.

The build is hard-countered by a sigil. That people consider it “meta” is amazing in light of that fact.

Now I understand. Since dd ele is best at burning, best at sustain and best at condi clear, they don’t count exclusively as a condi build. Interesting logic, but ok.

Celestial builds by definition are hybrid. Yes, D/D eles are best or near best at pretty much everything but boon removal (their direct damage is pretty strong too), but that doesn’t change the fact it is still a hybrid build. OP, sure, but still hybrid.

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Except that LoS would normally be preventing the Necro from critting you in the first place.

Hammerguard.9834:

Signet necro also hard counters condi builds which is a problem in itself but condi players do have a chance if they use LoS, dodge, or block to get the necro to waste atleast one of their three transfers. Diamond skin ele is simply impossible to kill alone.

EDIT: Also, wth?

“Plague Sending: This trait will no longer attempt to activate Plague Signet if the player is either out of range or does not have a line of sight to the target.”

We want more counterplay, Anet. Not less.

The change to Plague Sending specifically was due to possible interactions with Mark skills. Basically, if the situation is such that Plague Signet could not function, it doesn’t. However, if, for example, an unblockable attack (Soul Marks, Wells, or Dark Path) crits on a blocking foe, the Plague Sending will still be blocked.

TLDR: Counterplay is still the same, but wierd outlier scenarios like a stray Mark of Blood won’t send it into cooldown when it literally can’t work.

Sube Dai.8496:

So much noob on this thread. Are people actually trying to say that trap rangers are op? They have no stun breaks, a passive condi clear every 10 seconds (useless), and run rabid. Which in this so called condi meta equates to full glass.

If you are dying to trap rangers, venom thieves, burn guards = you suck.

What I loved was the guy saying that trap thieves were out of control.

Do any thieves even use traps? Ever?

It will be yes. There are some personal benefits you can get as well from having one of your characters be a Scribe, but we haven’t heard anything on what those perks might be.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ranger condi cleanse is all tied to one of two Grandmaster traits, both in Wilderness Survival. I chose Survival of the Fittest, but Survival skills are good enough on their own that I don’t feel like I’m being limited by using them. Necro condi application in Power builds is debilitating, usually Chill, Cripple, or Weakness.

As for having more problems with Power builds, it depends on the spec. Hammer warriors tend to be a pain for each, as the Ranger dies too quickly to down them and my Necro spends too much time CC’d. Shatter burst Mesmer is more dangerous to my Ranger than any condition build unless I manage to time GS4 well. Then it’s still dangerous, but I have a shot at winning.

Backstab Thieves, though, tend to end up being funny. Especially on my Ranger. Eating a Maul from stealth usually ends the fight pretty quick.

Alright, so the reason why you’re writing on this topic is to tell us what for a great player you are – good for you Has got nothing to do with the actual topic though.

No, the reason is to demonstrate that with proper build and play, condis aren’t any more or less difficult to deal with than any other build. You don’t have to play condi to beat them, just play a balanced (on defenses) build halfway decently. Big part is to use the active defenses you use against Power builds instead of ignoring them because you don’t see big numbers immedietly.

Grymlocke.1067:

@ Robert Gee

Any update its been 4/5 days since event was over any new updates/ changes for us

I submitted alot of feedback for the last BWE2 Event

It was a week before we got the last update. Be patient.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I do so all the time. I roam with Zealot’s Necro and ‘zerker Ranger. Condi builds get eaten for breakfast. Why? Because I time my cleanses properly and don’t neglect basic defensive measures just because they aren’t hitting me for big numbers up front.

Everyone in WvW is aiming to kill you. Figuring out how they plan to do that within a couple of seconds is key to success.

So you have more problems with power builds than with condis? Although Necros have got a pretty nice condi cleanse and themselves access to enough condis, no matter whether power or condi build – same with rangers – although I don’t know about their condi cleanse.

Ranger condi cleanse is all tied to one of two Grandmaster traits, both in Wilderness Survival. I chose Survival of the Fittest, but Survival skills are good enough on their own that I don’t feel like I’m being limited by using them. Necro condi application in Power builds is debilitating, usually Chill, Cripple, or Weakness.

As for having more problems with Power builds, it depends on the spec. Hammer warriors tend to be a pain for each, as the Ranger dies too quickly to down them and my Necro spends too much time CC’d. Shatter burst Mesmer is more dangerous to my Ranger than any condition build unless I manage to time GS4 well. Then it’s still dangerous, but I have a shot at winning.

Backstab Thieves, though, tend to end up being funny. Especially on my Ranger. Eating a Maul from stealth usually ends the fight pretty quick.

Reaper has three major threat skills: Gravedigger, Executioner’s Scythe, and Chilled to the Bone. Landing either of the last two can guarantee landing the first.

So, in 1v1’s, sure Reaper can have a tougher time. But, while those are the big 3, they aren’t all you have. If they’re saving a dodge for one of the big 3, that means they’re down one dodge for anything else you may try. Take advantage of that.

And in teamfights? You’re probably going to land those 3 due to opponents having so much else that they need to dodge.

Jana.6831:

I’m playing wvw for now 1,5 years – condi is easier applied than removed – condi removal has got a cooldown as well, you know? And condi builds do physical damage on top of that.
So please, don’t pretend I don’t know how to play – I don’t care the slightest what you’re doing in pve – and to be honest; condis should’ve always had a place in this game right from the start – I just don’t agree with “condis becoming more and more powerful in pvp/wvw whereas condi removal gets nerfed/stays the same”

Edit: And before you claim that the game is just fine the way it is because condi builds would do no damage if condi removal was improved: Go to wvw as a power build and fight some condi builds.

I do so all the time. I roam with Zealot’s Necro and ‘zerker Ranger. Condi builds get eaten for breakfast. Why? Because I time my cleanses properly and don’t neglect basic defensive measures just because they aren’t hitting me for big numbers up front.

Everyone in WvW is aiming to kill you. Figuring out how they plan to do that within a couple of seconds is key to success.

Hopefully, the inability to flash death shroud for minion healing gets resolved before HoT launch. Definitely the part of Reaper I hate the most right now.

The only real reason to use Reaper for MM is for better scaling into teamfights than base Necro can manage. Between Blighter’s Boon giving vastly improved sustain and Rise giving either greatly improved survivability or a massive Death Nova nuke, you also bring stronger Transfusion heals to your allies (since Soul Spiral pulses 3 more times than Life Transfer).

Lachanche.6859:

If, as some people like to argue, all enemies but the Reaper is a bunker, then chances are you should probably just… Leave that fight and go be useful somewhere else? That’d be my best advice.

well this is dumb, if you get something like ele ele guard reaper thief you can’t focus anyone. you pressure ele they get out of the fight and reset. you pressure thief you cant really pressure a thief if the thief is good. you pressure guard someone on your team will die to pressure before the guard does. you can only resort to good old focus the necro exept this time it will take 3x the time it usually takes to kill it.

Even a bunker Guard can’t hold out long against a 5-man focus. Neither can a D/D ele.

It could end up that the best strategy is to just try to pressure everyone a bit evenly, watching for a gap in defenses and pile on whoever has that gap.

Or, since they’re all clumped together, go cap the other 2 points. This is probably the better move, since if they don’t split up, you win. If they do split up, you have people to focus down.

Jana.6831:

Thunderbird.8036:

I do not pvp or wvw but you did not specify them or pve nor did you mention a specific class. I disagree with any of them being too easy to play and survive everywhere I go but even if they are I do not see a problem with having some classes capable of a more simple play style as not every person who likes to play games can easily handle complicated numbers of buttons in some specific order. Not everyone is 18 to 25 with instant reflexes; a near zero latency & low frame rate, yet some people who are older, slower reflexes, high latency due to distance from server or whatever, would also like to be able to play & actually survive & maybe they have fun with a simpler way of playing.

No matter condi or power only the skilled people will be the winners in a battle (assuming one on one or equal numbers) so since your complaint appears centred on play being too easy, make & run a toon requiring all the complexity you desire but why complain because some types are at least playable to a satisfactory degree for those not as quick thinking or in reflexes as you may be.

The complaint is actually based around pvp and wvw as (nearly) all rules apply to all 3 modes. And no, condi usually takes away the need for skill – as there’s not enough condi removal to avoid it. And each major patch the condi in at least wvw gets stronger, but our defenses get worse.
Btw: I stomp people who could be my children in wvw and pvp as a glassy zerker D/D thief. My computer could be better, though. Not everybody who is over 30 has got slow reflexes.

ETA: Come to think of it; It’s a pity I don’t have children: “Yo bro, don’t want to tidy up your room? 1 vs 1 me!”

Condi cleanses need to be outstripped by condi application to have a remotely balanced game. If you want a match to not be one-sided or endless, offenses on both sides must outstrip their respective defenses.

And the only condi removal that has been nerfed in the last year plus has been Shadow’s Embrace. Even so, it’s still pretty good.

@Odyssey.6523: Considering dodges also work perfectly well against conditions…

Danikat.8537:

It happens in all games, whether it’s an MMO, an RTS or Pokémon (where all pokemon are divided into those which are so OP they’re banned from competitive events, those which are merely OP, and those which are never used in competitive events).

Just a nitpick, here, but Smogon is not even close to “competitive events.” You need to look up the VGC rules for that, which has no tiers. Until this past year, for example, VGC just said “no legendaries,” even though pokemon like Articuno are widely considered to be fairly bad.

I’ve been a bit curious lately as to what opinions are on the various elite specs on the PvP front are. While I played a lot of PvP this past beta weekend (all on Reaper), I know my experience was rather limiting. I never encountered 5 of the 7 elite specs, so I really can’t give feedback on fighting with/against them.

All of my PvP was unranked Conquest. I’d be interested in hearing how the different specs also fared in Stronghold.

Here is my list of opinions.

Reaper
As I mentioned, I played this a lot It felt really good to play, especially in teamfights where general confusion let me rip into people with the powerful hits Reaper brings.

However, I don’t see it as being so durable as others seem to. This is one of the two specs I did see others playing in PvP this weekend and frankly, I wasn’t impressed by my opponents. I had one point where the opposing team had two Reapers and I took them both on solo for a win. Sure, they were most likely unskilled in comparison, but I never went below 60% health in that fight. I’m not sure how they weren’t able to do a lot more to me, given Necros aren’t known for their avoidance abilities.

Chronomancer
The other spec I saw, though this was rare. I had one opponent, who wasn’t very good, and one ally, who had brought greatly appreciated support. All in all, not enough for me to form a decent opinion. I can see Chronomancers being a strong option for PvP.

Dragonhunter, Tempest, Daredevil, Herald, Berserker
Didn’t encounter. Can’t comment.

Surprisingly, the one Revenant I encountered wasn’t a Herald (or at least wasn’t using the F2/Shield/Glint). The Revenant was a fun fight, though. Very back-and-forth.

style.6173:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

At first I sensed a lot of animosity in this thread but it seems to be dwindling now. I played condi when I first started and then realized it wasn’t a viable focus because conditions were too easily removed before they could serious damage and the defensive stats didn’t compensate for how slowly you killed people. Now, in my perspective at least, condi burst and power burst are nearly comparable unless you consider players with cleanses and higher reaction time. That’s when condi falls short.

I’m totally loving that damage conditions are scary at the moment. I LOVE DoT classes and I always have in any MMO or RPG I’ve ever played.

A single condi can be cleared. Any good condi player hits with multiple condis. Even better if they can use those other condi to cover their burns.

Anyone who doesn’t realize that condi builds are easier to play is just fooling themselves. Condis do too much damage given that someone can also spec defensively with that condi build.

So, why don’t we see them in tourneys? If their skill : reward ratio is so low, we should see the really skilled ones dominating. And I can garuntee you that there are really skilled condition players.

You probably need to watch tournaments more often. dd ele and burn guardian are both considered meta.

Only burn guardian is a condition build. D/D ele is a hybrid build. And Burn Guardians really don’t do fantastically in those tourneys either.

The build is hard-countered by a sigil. That people consider it “meta” is amazing in light of that fact.

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

At first I sensed a lot of animosity in this thread but it seems to be dwindling now. I played condi when I first started and then realized it wasn’t a viable focus because conditions were too easily removed before they could serious damage and the defensive stats didn’t compensate for how slowly you killed people. Now, in my perspective at least, condi burst and power burst are nearly comparable unless you consider players with cleanses and higher reaction time. That’s when condi falls short.

I’m totally loving that damage conditions are scary at the moment. I LOVE DoT classes and I always have in any MMO or RPG I’ve ever played.

A single condi can be cleared. Any good condi player hits with multiple condis. Even better if they can use those other condi to cover their burns.

Anyone who doesn’t realize that condi builds are easier to play is just fooling themselves. Condis do too much damage given that someone can also spec defensively with that condi build.

So, why don’t we see them in tourneys? If their skill : reward ratio is so low, we should see the really skilled ones dominating. And I can garuntee you that there are really skilled condition players.

The life steal is not the first thing that needs to be addressed with this trait. That would be the cooldown reduction.

Quarktastic.1027:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Such a cooldown is already on place for Reaper’s Shroud.

It needs to be removed. Furious Demise, Foot in the Grave, and Life From Death are all traits that are worth flashing for, and Reapers can’t do that.

Reaper’s shroud has skills worth staying in shroud for. Namely, that 8 seconds of stability. (the tooltip says 1 stack, but I noticed the skill actually pulsing 3 stacks.)

It does, but you may very well not want any of the RS skills at that moment, or could want a trait while not wanting to lose life force. MM builds, for example, want to use Life From Death when out of combat to heal up their minions (including Flesh Wurm or trying to keep Jagged Horrors up until the next fight). This exit cooldown means this happens less often, but also means the Necro is constantly losing life force.

Alternatively, say I’m at high health, low on life force, and get stunned. I might want to pop Foot in the Grave for a quick stunbreak, confident I can survive until Shroud is off cooldown again and wanting to conserve what life force I do have. Or I want to pop FitG to cover my Consume Conditions cast. With the exit cooldown, I’m having a tougher time getting the necessary Stability coverage.

Also, Infusing Terror pulses 1 stack of 3 second Stability each second for up to 8 seconds. It will get up to 3 stacks, but never above that without boon duration.

I had a surprising amount of success using the shout heal, though I do agree it needs more actual healing. Main thing I was using it for was life force at the start and between fights.

You can pop it twice before you can realistically be expected to be in a fight and have shroud available immedietly upon entering combat. It will be up again before you need a heal.

I will say this about Reapers: they are very good at punishing mistakes, and they do so very decisively.

When facing a Reaper, you have time to make your decisions. If you make the wrong one, you do not get another chance. I can’t say this is true about any other spec in the game right now.

Shala.8352:

ragnarokda.1805:

I run into warriors with soldier runes on often enough to consider them. And it’s not like bunker guards are uncommon, either. I still don’t understand where you’re getting this “double experience” stuff with power builds? What builds are you talking about that are so much more complicated than condi builds? I honestly want to know because I feel like I wanna play those ones since there is so much more prestige in playing power over condi.

Scrubs play condi? I guess? No idea.

well question is another: did condi players started by playing condi builds or power builds? And why they switched to condi players then? not enough fast, or just easy gameplay? just make 2+2 man, is very easy to understand that condi gameplay is much more easy.

I started condi, then switched to Power. Why? Power was so much easier to win with against competent opponents. I didn’t have to worry about cleanse spam and my damage output was higher anyway.

Such a cooldown is already on place for Reaper’s Shroud.

It needs to be removed. Furious Demise, Foot in the Grave, and Life From Death are all traits that are worth flashing for, and Reapers can’t do that.

Cripple and Chill need to not affect the break bar, for starters. This allows for alternative control techniques and, much more importantly, traits to even work on those enemies (and Rune of Ice 6 piece). Reaper in particular has a lot of traits that simply don’t work on defiant enemies, but Rangers, Warriors, and even base Necro have some as well.

Fair enough on the heal. That’s just what I was using personally.

I’m not sure you really understand why you take Blood Magic in a Reaper MM build.

Blood Magic is not taken for personal siphons, it is taken for keeping your minions alive as well as letting them provide you with a steady influx of health. Your personal Vampiric procs are not that important, though they do help. No, Blood Magic is all about the AoE healing you provide, and Soul Spiral Transfusion is sick.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQBdysJ0UD2XD4tJweDWmGsJvsKg0AoAEAi/gWhA-TZwZAAQZAA

This is probably the basis of the best Reaper MM build. Notice it avoids Soul Eater completely. Frankly, right now, ALL good Reaper builds avoid Soul Eater completely. The trait just doesn’t do much.

I never had an issue with not being tanky enough (though Id didn’t try ZvZ fighting). I had long portions of fighting in PvP (like 5 minutes long) where I would drop below half and then just not die through cycling heals, blinds, and shroud.

Of course, one of the opponents in that match was a longbow Ranger, so the projectile destruction on Death’s Charge was a huge help.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Lemondish.3268:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Am I the only person who didn’t have issues landing this skill, both in PvP and PvE?

You’re not.

I also have absolutely no idea what people are complaining about. This skill is really strong already. Sure, it may not hit hard, but it provides 12 vuln stacks which works out to 24% crit with Decimate Defenses. There may be a few mechanical issues with it, but all in all I think it’s the most important skill to me, depending on build of course.

Like a lot of people on this forum you are thinking short term. yes short term you can easily land this attack in PvP. Long term people will soon be able to read the animation and simply lazily move aside.

So turn with them? It’s easy to land it no matter how your opponents move.

Besides, people will save dodges for Gravedigger and Executioner’s Scythe. Death Spiral is small potatoes compared to those.

nekretaal.6485:

It’s a brainless damage skill on a weapon that badly needs utility.

I think you have it confused with another skill. Death Spiral isn’t a damage skill, it’s a life force generation/vulnerability stacking skill. Plus, it can be used to burn through blinds and block charges like nothing else. Guardian blinded you, has Aegis, and is currently under Shield of Wrath? Death Spiral burns through all of those and still lands a hit.

Am I the only person who didn’t have issues landing this skill, both in PvP and PvE?

ronpierce.2760:

I’ve tried many combinations, nothing came even close to SRS Reaper. Curses/Sr didn’t have the same synergy with Blighters boon or damage potential and Spite Curses just simply melted. At which point you’d be better off exchanging reaper for SR. Not to mention the fact that Dhuumfire is simply amazing with Spite/Soul Reaping.

Depends on your definition of freedom, I guess, but from my experience that flexibility isn’t quite there.

The only traitline I had issues adding in with Reaper was Blood Magic, which only really worked out on Reaper MM, but that’s because the MM build only requires 2 trait lines anyway, so picking Reaper is no real sacrifice. A shame, though, since there are a couple Blood Magic traits that synergize nicely with Reaper. Especially the insanity that is Soul Spiral Transfusion.

ronpierce.2760:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just going to point this out, but Reapers are no weaker to conditions than base Necro is. They still have access to every bit of condition removal than base Necro does, but also can use Runes of the Soldier/Trooper.

That’s not entirely true. At least, not while running a practical build. You lose plague sending from the Spite/Curses combo. Because of how it functions (requiring a critical) it’s the most effective low cooldown removal of 3-5 conditions the necromancer has, even over the more controlled one. “suffer!” Doesn’t hold a stick to it, and shouts just really aren’t good enough to justify a soldier build nor can they very safely run without Soul Reaping.

So you’re right in a “technical” viewpoint, realistically, a good Reaper build actually has a fair bit less reliable removal and less transfer pressure. And by far, less boon-hate (different story, but still important to what makes necros valuable).

Spite and Soul Reaping are not both required on Reaper builds in my experience. You want one or the other, sure, but both aren’t required.

Run Curses instead of Soul Reaping and you still have that transfer pressure, high boon corruption via Path of Corruption on a 6 second cooldown, and high Weakness uptime to counteract the higher life force degen while also getting some survivability outside of Shroud. Plus, since you still have Spite…Signets of Suffering.

Just going to point this out, but Reapers are no weaker to conditions than base Necro is. They still have access to every bit of condition removal than base Necro does, but also can use Runes of the Soldier/Trooper.

NeXeD.3042:

Some nice synergy between death spiral and vamp signet. If you have locust swarm and hit vamp signet and death spiral the healing and lf gain is insane.

Vamp signet has a 1 second ICD, so it’s not that astounding.

That said, I find Death Spiral to be very satisfactory. It does its job well as a setup skill and is basically garunteed to proc on hit/crit effects that you have.

Vydahr.4285:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Vydahr.4285:

Bhawb.7408:

Vydahr.4285:

@Drarnor: Personally, I think “Suffer!” should transfer 2 conditions to each enemy hit, that way it’s a little more effective 1v1 and in team fights. Though, 1v1 is much less important in this case

What if it could also send CC effects? Pushes it away from just being “Plague signet that is either better or worse depending on people hit” and more into its own niche.

So… Basically this? Makes it a fairly heavy skill in terms of what it does, but doesn’t seem overpowered. Just powerful

“Damage foes around you and chill them. Transfer conditions and CC to each foe you strike.

Damage Damage: 259
Negative Effects Transferred: 2
Chilled (3s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 600"

Nah, would only need to transfer either one CC effect or a condition to each target hit. Transferring a Daze is already a stunbreak on steroids. It doesn’t also need to transfer up to 9 conditions on top of that.

Then it should transfer only conditions and send 2 to each target hit, because a single condi isn’t very effective to transfer, and because cleanses and transfers don’t prioritize condis to take care of, you’re often left with the worst conditions to have on you

Or it works as it does now, but adds stuns, dazes, and taunts to the list of what it can transfer, (the suggested idea) putting those in priority ahead of conditions. Launches, knock-downs, blowouts, and pulls are a bit more finicky, but could potentially get transferred as well.

So, in a 1v1, Plague Signet breaks stun and transfers 5 conditions. Suffer would be weaker, but more flexible in use. In teamfights, though, Suffer would scale to be both equally powerful and more flexible while Plague Signet would not.

The fact it was working weirdly with those effects already indicates to me that they might have already been messing around with the idea, but it wasn’t fully coded when the beta build shipped out,

Nah. Reaper is not intended to be a flat upgrade to base Necro, and making Reaper’s Shroud melee range makes sure it isn’t.

Besides, you know there would be some bug introduced that has both shrouds draining life force simultaneously.

On a completely unrelated note, any idea how long it will be before this forum bug is fixed?

Vydahr.4285:

Bhawb.7408:

Vydahr.4285:

@Drarnor: Personally, I think “Suffer!” should transfer 2 conditions to each enemy hit, that way it’s a little more effective 1v1 and in team fights. Though, 1v1 is much less important in this case

What if it could also send CC effects? Pushes it away from just being “Plague signet that is either better or worse depending on people hit” and more into its own niche.

So… Basically this? Makes it a fairly heavy skill in terms of what it does, but doesn’t seem overpowered. Just powerful

“Damage foes around you and chill them. Transfer conditions and CC to each foe you strike.

Damage Damage: 259
Negative Effects Transferred: 2
Chilled (3s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 600"

Nah, would only need to transfer either one CC effect or a condition to each target hit. Transferring a Daze is already a stunbreak on steroids. It doesn’t also need to transfer up to 9 conditions on top of that.

I do wish that they had perhaps delayed this BWE until after the Druid and Engie elite spec were ready to test.

I also find it amusing the elite specs considered to be in the best spot are both headed by the same dev. I’m a Geeliever.

Ravezaar.4951:

@Drarnor you forgot my Fav shout “nothing can save you” … I kinda like vs Warrs + Guards

If I didn’t have notable feedback, I didn’t post anything. I was really focused on skills and traits that changed or, in the context of Chilling Victory and Augery of Death, the supporting environment changed.

Shouts
I admit to being skeptical of shouts before the weekend, but after the changes, they all actually felt really good to use. They are not without critiques, though, and “Suffer!” definitely has some bugs to work out.

• “Your Soul is Mine!” needs to heal for more at base and scaling. It’s close to being good right now, but it needs just a biiiit more. I’d say even upping the base to around 4.5k and the scaling to ~.7 would be plenty.

• “Suffer!” needs to transfer Blind. Also, interactions with various CC effects needs to be looked at. Transferring Taunt is interesting, but I don’t think it’s intended. I think it’s still acting as a stun break. On the other hand, if it was changed to transfer a CC effect or condition to each foe hit, that would make it a great competitor to Plague Signet, where each one has distinct strengths instead of trying to fill the same niche.

• “Rise!” could use some tweaks on Shambling Horrors specifically. Simply put, they need to last longer. Now, this could be done by removing the self-degeneration (put a hard cap on how many you can have if necessary) or by giving them more health. Given that they usually are taking half of your damage, their own damage, and constantly losing health, they just aren’t around long enough.

• “Chilled to the Bone!” feels really good to use now. I do feel the cooldown is a bit too long, but if the unbreakability of the stun is intentional, I can see it being a bit longer than it would be otherwise. 90 seconds might be worth testing during the final beta and, if that’s too low, you can push it up a bit more before release.

Traits

• Shivers of Dread has one annoying quirk in that it makes the already poor downstate for Necros even worse. If your opponent is standing on top of you when they go to stomp, your downed Fear won’t get them out of stomp range, so they can stomp as soon as the Fear ends. Not sure what can be done on this front, but if possible, I’d like to see it addressed.

• Cold Shoulder going to a 20% duration increase was exactly what was needed. Thank you.

• Augury of Death is really feeling like a good trait to pick, now that shouts are more worthwhile. It’s not for every build, but it definitely feels good when you do pick it up.

• Chilling Nova I can’t really comment on due to not using it.

• Soul Eater’s desirability did not improve with the Greatsword changes. I feel like the basis of the trait is fine, but numbers (especially the cooldown reduction) really need buffs. I just didn’t notice the cooldowns being any shorter than when I was playing without it.

• Chilling Force felt much, much better since we had improved chill uptime.

• Deathly Chill really feels worthless still. It’s a nice idea, but it just won’t compare to Reaper’s Onslaught or Blighter’s Boon. Reaper’s Onslaught synergizes nicely with Dhuumfire for much more damage and Blighter’s Boon gives condition builds the much-needed life force possibilities. Needs significantly more damage and/or additional effects.