Wasn’t it IGN that also stated a number of things that Colin has flat-out said were wrong? I wouldn’t be trusting them, honestly.
Wow…. that was a big reveal…. I bet someone at anet is feeling fairly salty at the moment.
Hardly a “big reveal.” We already knew “challenging group content” would be described on Saturday. There are only so many ways that can happen, especially since we know dungeons like we already have are out and it’s not Fractals either.
Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.
Of course turrets can be kited, LOSing… Essentially the same thing.
And the interactions on Engi are less, for sure, but still not as little as you seem to make it…
Sounds like you are not familiar with engi to be honest. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.
LoS and kiting are two different things. Against a MM, you can keep fighting the Necro just fine while kiting the minions. Against a turret engie, if you LoS the turrets, you can’t fight the engie either.
Engineer-turret interaction does (except for heal turret) relate only to placement and timing of the actives (including detnation). All turrets are ranged and either homing (rocket), AoE (flame, thumper), or incredibly fast projectile (rifle) meaning that to avoid them, actual active defenses must be used. To avoid minions, you can just keep running around.
So, the Engie doesn’t need to lock anyone down for the turrets to be effective. The Necro does. Likewise, if an engie spread his turrets (most did, including all good ones), you couldn’t destroy them all in one go. Necros don’t have the ability to prevent their minions from getting grouped up for AoE.
Additional counterplay and interaction between master and AI makes MM Necro a healthier build for the game than Turret engies were.
The Dragon hunter has a ranged attack that hits almost as hard as kill shot on low cool down (the reaper has no ranged defense)
The Dragon hunter automatically gets a knock back every 7 seconds (that functions as a interrupt of slow attacks, and the reaper is slow to run back into melee range)
The Dragon Hunter’s mechanics for blocking are OP against slow attacking enemies.
Last BWE, playing on dragon hunter I was hard countering reapers.
I think you should add dragon hunter to the classes that hard counter reaper. It will be worse than longbow ranger vs reaper (another hard counter to add to the list).
Death’s Charge will block projectiles, remember? The longbow knockback is getting reduced to once every 10 seconds as well. Plus, Dragonhunter’s blocking is no different than base Guardian’s and..oh wait, Reapers get a skill that makes all of their attacks unblockable for 4 seconds minimum, making blocking abilities a moot point.
If a Dragonhunter is hard-countering a Reaper, the Reaper is playing poorly. Only thing to really be concerned with is the elite trap, and even then, only if Infusing Terror isn’t available.
Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”
MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.
Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.
Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.
Honestly, the stealth options for Daredevil don’t worry me. They’re giving up dodges if they’re using the extra leap finisher to stealth.
Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”
MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I just don’t like the negativity of thinking that every new elite spec is going to hard counter us. I think the argument is a bit skewed because much of the reapers kit is team fight oriented, while most people are comparing reaper to other classes purely through 1v1s. And that’s a fair assessment since most base necro builds are fundamentally stronger 1v1 than in team fights.
Anyway I just think we should keep that distinction in mind while discussing this.
In the case of Daredevil, the concept itself is quite strong against what Reaper’s concept is: mobile and evasive versus slow and powerful hits. I don’t expect Reaper to do well against it if both are tuned properly.
Can you necroforum warriors please stop the martyr complex already? So many people here complain about the necro/reaper to be weak as hell but they hardly ever play. I have high MMR and regularly face off against ESL players when I queue, and i do mostly fine against them.
To be fair, Reaper was weak the only chance we’ve had to play it. Even with the upcoming buffs, it’s looking like every elite spec is getting better and better ways to protect themselves against the Reaper’s greatest strengths, from on-demand Chill removal, to faster attacks/interrupts, to more prevalent Super Speed, which negates the snaring effect of Chill, or AoE stunbreaking to negate the Reaper elite skill.
Am I concerned? For Tempest, Herald, and Dragonhunter, not a bit. The only one of those that really counters Reaper well is Tempest, but compared to base ele, the spec is underwhelming, so it won’t see much use.
For Daredevil, Berserker, and Chronomancer? They will make a Reaper impotent by heavily exploiting the weakness (slow attacks and movement) and being extremely resilient to its strengths (Chronomancer through Alacrity and chill reduction, plus being interrupt-happy, Berserker through shedding conditions faster than a husky in the summer sheds fur, and Daredevil by laughing as the Reaper attempts to hit him, shrugging off any control effects that might land with ease).
Assuming the Reaper was ever not blinded/dodged/stunned, yes. This is what would happen.
But given the spec gives Thieves even more ways to do those things…
Is it possible that we could get an updated hud for the necro profession mechanic? It currently will show you how much like force you have as a total but not how much you have as a % without mousing over.
I was thinking something that looks a little new and fresh like revy’s energy bar. Also maybe show the % of life force we have without having to mouse over?
Eyeball it? We already had it work the way you’re suggesting in the past, but then, the actual amount of life force we had was unknown. Percentages are much easier to eyeball than actual values.
On the boon rip front, Mesmers do excel in frequent, low-count boon removal. Necromancers do far better with large numbers of boons that are applied more infrequently.
Unfortunately, the former is all we currently see in boons that we care about removing for PvE. Nobody cares about the Swiftness Mordrem Wolves have, but the Dredge Protection and Might that’s reapplied in literally 3 seconds? Different story.
We have so much AoE even as base necro, and thieves are still squishy as heck, with the increased damage we’re getting, plus whatever other changes we are going to get between now and then, we should be fine.
Plus I know engi has a Similar trait and it has an ICD attached to it, so if this gets like a 5 second IcD I’m not really worried.
No ICD on the dodge-modifying traits for Daredevil.
Plus “remove a condition when you evade” (with a datamined 1 second ICD) on a spec that has, by design, a ton of evades. Necro’s won’t stand a chance.
Maybe they’re illiterate? Who knows? We can only speculate.
I would be incredibly surprised if this wasn’t the case.
They should really nerf the ele to trash tier like the dhuumfire patch did. Maybe then devs will finally realise the core problem with this profession.
Who am I kidding…
Doubtful. Necros are still trying to recover from that.
Refer to my signature.
Second line of your signature is blatantly false.
Minions need to heal when out of combat, just like the Flesh Golem… Please and thank you! They die so fast in combat, it would be nice to have them heal if they survive
Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend do heal to full out of combat. The others have sacrifice skills.
trapper rangers are really easy to kill, if you see them disappear don’t just run straight into their trap, go take a detour. As others have said, trapper rangers usually have no condi clear or stun break.
Or intentionally spring the trap to Reveal them.
Wow, I didn’t even notice the longer cooldown, it really is 30 seconds… -_-
Also the active part of “Signet of Vampirism” and “Lesser Signet of Vampirism” heal you less than the amount that were list in the Tooltip.
It appears the tooltip adds 24% of healing power to both skills, but it’s actually just 2.75%.
2.4%. Got to calculate out the WvW healing bonuses.
I’m pretty sure that even most of the Elementalist community agrees….
Naw. I don’t think it needs a nerf and I’d say most in the real pvp community don’t. It’s mostly forum warriors that seem to think so – if you actually go play PvP I rarely hear people complain of OP eles. Moreso its these official forums that you get all this OP calls and hate mongering. I don’t see as much ele hate on reddit for instance.
And yet, Celestial D/D ele is becoming commonplace to show up not once, not twice, but 3 or 4 times on a team in top-level tournaments. This is not something that happens when a build is not overperforming by a wide margin.
Chill certainly doesn’t make much sense as it is currently implemented. It took 3 years to get rid of condition caps and stack overriding… and now the devs decide to add it back, but just to necros.
Necros were already dealing with it on Terror. This is a case where we need to see it in action before claims on its impact can be made and if any radical changes are even necessary. Regardless, not getting your Chill damage won ‘t make a large difference in anything, and the only time when it might be noticable is if you’re at a world boss event (in which case, swap on Reaper’s Onslaught or out of Reaper entirely).
If it doesn’t make a large difference in anything then it isn’t good enough to be a GM build defining trait and should be buffed. Other classes get 20% damage boosts for GM traits. If chill doesn’t add 20% to our DPS then it probably needs to be buffed or reworked.
My point was that in situations where you aren’t getting your Chill damage, the overall impact of incoming DPS to the target makes up .01% at best. Negligible entirely.
Really OP? Someone tries to do this thread a second time?
Sorry if I’m not an Ele main and these forums don’t have a working search function. I’m liking the overall discussion, though.
Chill certainly doesn’t make much sense as it is currently implemented. It took 3 years to get rid of condition caps and stack overriding… and now the devs decide to add it back, but just to necros.
Necros were already dealing with it on Terror. This is a case where we need to see it in action before claims on its impact can be made and if any radical changes are even necessary. Regardless, not getting your Chill damage won ‘t make a large difference in anything, and the only time when it might be noticable is if you’re at a world boss event (in which case, swap on Reaper’s Onslaught or out of Reaper entirely).
So, for anyone but a Reaper, Chill will be the only condition that does not stack at all.
Stupid idea.
No nerfs to D/D Eles unless:
a) they nerf only Cele D/D Eles and leave all other builds alone
b) there are buffs to other skills / weapons / traits that will make at least one more build viable in PVPThe current track record is bad because a lot of Ele nerfs hurt all other Ele builds more than D/D Eles (see: RtL)
a) cannot actually happen. Even nerfing a skill on dagger will nerf other builds. For example, nerfing fire grab would also nerf S/D eles. If Staff ele were the problematic one, it would be easier, but the issue is with a build where each part of it can be mixed in with other things the Ele has. It is impossible to only nerf D/D Celementalist and no other builds.
If mobile fields were a thing that happens normally in game i’d be less worried, but as it is warriors are the only class that has anything like that, and personally i like the idea of it being risky to use rather than just limiting it in the traditional sense. (also how awesome would it be for necros to be able to turn into a mobile poison or darkness field, depending on what they activate. That might actually make me want to use plague instead of lich form.)
Tornado has been a mobile Lightning field for over two years, actually.
D/D Cele Ele should still be a threat. It just shouldn’t be so good that teams are stacking them three at a time and nobody thinks it’s a bad idea.
Realistically, I’d like to see the build nerfed to the point where it is still competitive, but taking more than one on a 5-man team is not necessarily the best path to victory. Ideally, you should think twice before engaging any build in the game (aside from dumb ones like a Necro with full minion traits, but no minions), although some will still be easier fights than others.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Meow’s suggestion does limit what can be done with Elite Specializations a bit, though.
Really, there’s no reason it needs to change. I do think they might be able to add a .5 second cooldown if and only if Death Shroud is triggered by Unholy Sanctuary without causing issues.
I’m pretty sure that even most of the Elementalist community agrees that the D/D Celestial Elementalist build is currently too strong and needs to get nerfed some. This is without much dispute in the PvP arena.
However, the question shouldn’t be if it needs a nerf but what specifically needs a nerf and how much of one. So, I am interested in hearing the Elementalist community’s thoughts on the matter for the following question:
What nerfs specifically would tone down the oppressive strength of the build without rendering it useless? Ideally, this would be in traits and skills, not runes, sigils, or amulets (as those would nerf non-problematic builds on other professions as well).
D/D Ele needs to be nerfed. This much is clear.
Now, what specifically needs to be nerfed and how? Much harder question. This one is probably why we haven’t seen any action from the devs regarding it yet; they don’t have a satisfactory answer at this point in time.
It does make sense for a Berserker, though. Real life example: Blackbeard.
The man was famous for setting his beard on fire during battle to intimidate people. Sure, it probably hurt, but that was a secondary concern so long as he was scaring the kitten out of people.
Berserkers aren’t really concerned with self-preservation. Hurting yourself to get a bigger advantage? Okay!
Berserkers, the real life example, didn’t hurt themselves physically. We’re not exactly sure what happened, but theories involve it being a mental/physical condition or some kind of psychoactive drugs that put them into a rage where they felt no pain, from exhaustion or harm.
Also, the Blackbeard deal is a myth, a fun one though.
Fair enough on Blackbeard.
Berserkers, though, it’s not so much that they intentionally hurt themselves, but it’s quite possible that they might harm themselves without really noticing. Accidentally setting yourself on fire as you’re trying to burn something else and not even noticing sounds very much in line with the theme.
Granted, could they have managed a full corruption line of skills? Probably not. Unless it was something similar to stances that then inflicted a condition when the stance ended. For example, a skill that gave super speed, but crippled the Berserker afterward. Pushing a body beyond its known limits does tend to have nasty side-effects.
Does this work if I shoot a reflect with a projectile and hit a teammate?
No. Once the projectile gets reflected, it is no longer considered yours. It uses the reflector’s Precision, at least, and also will apply the reflector’s on-hit/crit effects.
For example, say a Warrior uses Kill Shot into a Wall of Reflection. The Guardian happens to have a full charge of Virtue of Justice (so his next attack will burn). When the Kill Shot hits the Warrior, it will also inflict burning.
Except it would be silly for a Warrior to burn themselves. It makes “sense” for Necromancers and Mallyx, thematically, to have self-harm on their skills, it doesn’t for Berserker, at least not in this sense. Yes corruptions suck, it doesn’t make what he said any less valid, or make the idea of corruptions being self damaging a bad concept.
It does make sense for a Berserker, though. Real life example: Blackbeard.
The man was famous for setting his beard on fire during battle to intimidate people. Sure, it probably hurt, but that was a secondary concern so long as he was scaring the kitten out of people.
Berserkers aren’t really concerned with self-preservation. Hurting yourself to get a bigger advantage? Okay!
Necromancers alone must deal with their own abilities hurting them, even more so when a trait that is suppose to increase their skill’s prowess in the end is only more of a detriment.
Ummm…Mallyx?
Excuse me for missing that. Least Mallyx can stack 20+ seconds of resistance….
Doesn’t take away from the argument, why is it ok for some classes but on others not?
As stated above, a flawed design that account for transfers but not conditions applied by enemies to the caster?
I agree that drawbacks should be on more skills besides just Revenant and Necro. Especially since Berserkers will have the best condition cleaning in the entire game. They can afford to burn some.
Necromancers alone must deal with their own abilities hurting them, even more so when a trait that is suppose to increase their skill’s prowess in the end is only more of a detriment.
Ummm…Mallyx?
Ok…what’s a break bar?
Pretty much all bosses and mobs with defiant will have a bar instead of just stacks of defiance, each control type ability will drain this bar until it breaks, when it does, the boss/target is stunned and gains 25 vul. While they have the bar though, they are immune to CC effects.
Not quite accurate. What happens when the bar breaks varies with the enemy. Heralds (Revenant elite spec) using Shield 5 get a break bar that, when broken, stuns them for 2 seconds and gives them 25 Vulnerability. Tempests overloading Earth just get stunned if their break bar is broken (unknown time). Some bosses are stunned for 3 seconds, the Wyvern fight has it stunned for 4+ and taking double damage.
What exactly happens when the break bar is broken varies greatly. It may not even be something you want to trigger!
Having condition transfer on shroud was something I was playing with when doing the trait revamp. Plague Sending originally used shroud 1 as its trigger condition rather than critical hit. I ended up changing it because shroud 1 already had several traits that affected it and I didn’t want to overload it, plus the curses line had several traits that affected shroud in some way already. I think it would be a bit overpowered though if Life Blast could transfer conditions on every hit though.
On the topic of increasing the cast speed of Life Blast: I think we would need to lower the damage multiplier if we wanted to increase the cast speed. The damage per second on that skill at its current cast time is already about as high as we are comfortable with. It’s a tricky skill to balance because we’d need to also look at adjusting all the traits that affect it.
It wouldn’t affect Power builds much, but condition builds would appreciate it.
not true at all. Burst damage would take a hit big time and a condi necro would have a harder time sustaining lifeforce. Not everyone sits in ds and spams 1
So, you would rather hit for 0% damage instead of 50%? Halving damage and cast time results in indentical DPS, but more chances for crits and procs as well as mitigating anything that would cause the attack to not hit.
As for condi builds having a harder time sustaining life force, they would have an easier time for roughly the same payoff as now, only spending half the time to get an identical number of life blast procs off (so half the degen). It also wouldn’t murder their damage output as badly when the situation demands being in death shroud for extended periods.
At least for PvE, Hearld’s job is to give the mightstacking a +50% duration and maybe add Protection or Fury. Don’t worry about stacking the Might itself, you have Warriors and Eles for that. But that +50% duration means you don’t have to re-stack mid-fight.
If you want animal tails and ears, you can go to play any generic anime style MMO (or pick a Charr). Guild Wars 2 is not one of them, thank you.
As someone who is willing to run around with a tail on in real life, I’m glad for this. Only three reasons a GW2 character should be sporting a tail:
1. They’re a charr (or some future race with tails, like Tengu)
2. Norn using a racial elite.
3. Using a tonic/Heart/skritt burglar transformation
No other reason!
Having condition transfer on shroud was something I was playing with when doing the trait revamp. Plague Sending originally used shroud 1 as its trigger condition rather than critical hit. I ended up changing it because shroud 1 already had several traits that affected it and I didn’t want to overload it, plus the curses line had several traits that affected shroud in some way already. I think it would be a bit overpowered though if Life Blast could transfer conditions on every hit though.
On the topic of increasing the cast speed of Life Blast: I think we would need to lower the damage multiplier if we wanted to increase the cast speed. The damage per second on that skill at its current cast time is already about as high as we are comfortable with. It’s a tricky skill to balance because we’d need to also look at adjusting all the traits that affect it.
While I disagree with the calls for Life Blast to transfer conditions (trait bloat for that skill is high as-is), it’s very good to know that reducing cast time is on your radar. I’d be fine with halving the damage per-hit if the cast+aftercast was also halved. It wouldn’t affect Power builds much, but condition builds would appreciate it.
Exclusive berserker reveal is up!!! "Zam"
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180
All I can say? Forget using conditions against Beserkers. Cleansing Ire at max power up more often with a third of the adrenaline requirement? Yeah, you accomplish nothing.
It depends wether berserk drains the adrenaline or not. If it does you need only 10 less to get 2 F1’s offs.
“Berserk will also function as a Rage skill, filling up the new smaller adrenaline bar so that players can immediately use one of the primal burst skills once going Berserk.”
Looks like it fills it, not drains.
As usual Anet is over doing it with the skill negatives. If damage is being redirected to the minion, what is the entire point of it losing hp every second?.
To prevent you from having an army of 100 minions. Though they could just put a hard cap on that and call it a day… It seems like the entire skill is just bad imo. MMs already have high survivability I don’t understand the point of this skill.
It will still be useful for other builds who choose not to be MM. Having 5 minions out that can help you tank damage will be very helpful, and with the new chill buffs we should be able to have at least a couple minions land 1 attack. We’ll just have to see though.
Would you take this over Spectral armor out side of MM builds? I wouldn’t.
Why not both? Chances are, you’re aiming for a bunker build in this case, but I can see it being handy.
Exclusive berserker reveal is up!!! "Zam"
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180
All I can say? Forget using conditions against Beserkers. Cleansing Ire at max power up more often with a third of the adrenaline requirement? Yeah, you accomplish nothing.
Also, another thing separating axe and scepter is that it takes time for a scepter attack to hit. Axe just hits, regardless of distance
What Scepter are you talking about? Necro scepter has no projectiles or travel time on any of its skills.
I’d love to see it myself.
We have to keep in mind that currently there is no weapon skill in the game that is a Stunbreaker, so that might be weird giving RS 3 a Stun break. I’ll be fine if they don’t make RS3 a Stunbreak, just that it feels…weird. I guess I’ll get used to it with more playtime, but it’s unintuitive IMO when pretty much every other stability skill is a Stun break.
…I just linked one earlier…
Besides, a number of Stability skills are not stunbreaks. Rampage, Plague, Lich, Tornado, Consecrated Ground, Signet of the Wild, Dagger Storm, and Strength of the Pack all give Stability without breaking stun. That’s actually higher than the number that grant Stability and break stun.
Reaper’s Onslaught reducing the cooldown for TransfusionSpiral is one of those things I really, really, really, really, really want to play with in the next BWE.
I can see Blood Magic/Soul Reaping/Reaper actually being a thing in WvW zergs. In full exotic Cleric’s gear, you’re looking at easy 10k heals every 25.5 seconds, minus 5 seconds per kill you get.
Your job isn’t to deal damage then. Your job is to tag people and keep your zerg very healthy.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
That was the same mentality when one of my favorite characters in smite got a simple, but Very effective change that put him from bottom tier to top tier. He turned into a solo lane bully able to heal and burst down all the other squishy Mage types. People were so confused and didn’t know how to react to his newfound power, even when they gave him a slight nerf he still proved to be a huge bully, and would just starve the enemy so they were in effective in late game.
Hades?
……yes. ;-; I loved that game but haven’t been able to play it much after the warrior nerf from beta. He’s probably not like that nowadays though.
Hades is considered top tier still. Basically has one counter in Bakasura and nobody else.
That was the same mentality when one of my favorite characters in smite got a simple, but Very effective change that put him from bottom tier to top tier. He turned into a solo lane bully able to heal and burst down all the other squishy Mage types. People were so confused and didn’t know how to react to his newfound power, even when they gave him a slight nerf he still proved to be a huge bully, and would just starve the enemy so they were in effective in late game.
Hades?