Guild Wars 2

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Khristophoros.7194:

@Blood Red Arachnid

“Rise!” is the one shout I’m looking forward to, for a Death Nova build. Each time one of your minions dies you get a pretty decent poison field that pulses for damage. Getting 5 jagged horrors with Death Nova as often as this skill will be up is going to be amazing for AoE.

I find the situations in which I could maximize the benefit to be a bit… situational. In a PVP situation if I’m hitting 4-5 targets, I’m either surrounded and about to die, or I’m fighting a mesmer. In a lot of bouts, Rise! will summon 1 or 2 jagged horrors on a 40 second cooldown. This means that Bone Minions are literally twice as good as Rise! in most situations.

In a PVE scenario I can reliably hit 5 targets, but that will come to less tooltip damage than Well of Suffering. Worst part is, Well of Suffering doesn’t scale down when fighting fewer enemies.

I suppose condi reaper’s might use it. 25 ticks of AoE poisoning isn’t too bad, making it a stronger albeit uncontrollable Corrosive Poison Cloud. The hard part about this is I’m not sure Condi Reaper is better than regular ole Condi necro.

Well of course I was talking about PvE. I could see some use in a zerg situation in WvW but eh, dunno.

Death Nova deals direct damage unlike Corrosive Poison Cloud, so this is going to be a power build.

The Death Nova build I’m thinking of will have Well of Suffering, “Rise!” and Summon Bone Minions as the utility skills. Well of Suffering is too good not to use and there aren’t any other minion skills that synergize with Death Nova anyway.

So what are your traitline allocations? Your build also contains no group support whatsoever, it’s about as selfish as it gets.

If I cared about providing support I wouldn’t be playing necro in the first place.

But I’ll be going spite/blood/death so there will be some support from blood, incidentally. Also the poison clouds apply AoE weakness so that’s not too bad I guess.

Any situation where I can’t consistently get 5 jagged horrors with “Rise!” I’ll bring a different build.

edit: Sorry, I guess it has to be reaper/blood/death. If it turns out the damage isn’t good enough it’ll be reaper/spite/death.

Death Nova doesn’t provide Weakness. Only the blast finishers from Bone Minions do that (with Death Nova).

VodCom.6924:

• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.

This, plus the fact that enemies rarely use boons (when they do, it’s spammed on 3-5 second cooldowns or something like Swiftness where the stack & smack meta doesn’t care two bits about. Sadly, no exaggerations here) or conditions means the Necro’s two biggest strengths are completely irrelevant. It’s honestly the biggest problem with the Necro: they’re very good at doing irrelevant things.

If you recall when break bars were revealed, they did mention that break bars can do something other than prevent CC. What if, instead, Necros (or Reapers) got a break bar that filled when CC’d, and when it peaked, it would break stun and unleash some devestating attack? Now opponents have to worry about CCing the Necro too much and setting it off on a rampage instead.

Here’s a suggestion for Chilled to the Bone: Replace the Stability with 2 seconds (per target hit) of a buff that increases your Chill’s recharge rate reduction to 100%. If you hit 5 targets with it, it means that for the next 10 seconds, people you have chilled don’t recover cooldowns without a friendly Chronomancer.

Powerful enough to justify the 2 second cast, but also with enough counterplay (cleansing the chill, of course, works) to not be unstoppable.

Khristophoros.7194:

Sandrox.9524:

Khristophoros.7194:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

In short, “no”, because Ice Bow 4*4 with Might and Fury stacking more than outdamages both Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption combined.

Plus, the Necros can’t just skip mobs.

I forgot about Ice Bow oops. That thing is OP, can’t believe they’re not nerfing it.

But what’s this about not being able to skip mobs? I always just run past them without any problems.

Cause you had friends with stab/protection/swiftness/vigor shared

No usually I just run through without boons. I join pugs regardless of the party comp so we don’t always have guardians or thieves to make running easier. I just dodge stuff.

I mean I even solo the scepter piece gathering on Hodgins’ path in AC without bothering to bring any stability or stun breaks on my necro.

If you think boons are required for running past mobs you have a lot to learn.

They are if you want to do it quickly. Otherwise, you’re stuck with combat speed.

Death Magic is really missing a Master level minor. Soul Comprehension, on average, adds about 1% total to your life force gain, which is completely irrelevant. My latest idea was changing it to pulse 1 stack of 30 second Stability every 30 seconds in combat. It would kind of work like the Guardian Virtue of Courage passive, but let the Necro ignore 1 hard CC instead of attack. Duration of the 1 stack and the pulse interval should be the same.

Curses needs an actual choice at two of the tiers: Adept and Grandmaster. Plague Sending is great, but it is literally the only one even worth considering outside of jumping puzzles. Likewise, Weakening Shroud is the only good Grandmaster trait for PvP or WvW, and Lingering Curse still has some trouble competing with it in PvE (mainly due to the fact it doesn’t work at all on Grasping Dead and also doesn’t work right on Putrid Curse).

In short, “no”, because Ice Bow 4*4 with Might and Fury stacking more than outdamages both Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption combined.

Plus, the Necros can’t just skip mobs.

nekretaal.6485:

The reaper shouts are awful. Was anybody ever excited by any of them?

Oh yeah, one of them is a stun break and might see use because the Necromancer’s competing stun breaks are garbage.

NCSY looks pretty good. 4-9 seconds of unblockability, plus an unblockable 2 boon rip on a 35 second cooldown? Pretty good to me.

That one and YAAW (mainly for AoE weakness and stun break every 25 seconds) look pretty decent to me. The rest? nope.

Kidel.2057:

Having hallies remove conditions may be bad, but having to rely on Jalis to remove our 2 hours of cripple is even worse. Allows no customization and makes mallyx useless except fro glass cannon builds.

If you’re worried about 2 hours of cripple, you can use either Jallis, Shiro (only handles movement impairing conditions), or Ventari (so, literally any other legend, and you get two) to handle it, or staff. Not to mention the “remove a condition on legend swap” trait.

Zetsumei.4975:

Well at least it looks like warriors aren’t the ones getting the break bar

Datamining shows that they are via a trait. It sounds like the Tempest break bar is just a part of overloading Earth.

Basandra Skye.4031:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Looks like a good solution to me. In solo play, it won’t really make too much difference, but in group play, you’re not neutered because your allies are helping you.

Just because you’re being carried by allies doesnt mean you’ve not been neutered. To be fair, a Rev’s build with Mallyx is quite dependent on conditions not being cleansed immediately. Perhaps instead of something that “stores” conditions. What if it provided a “meta” condition every few seconds that sits at the top of priority lists for condi cleanses and NOT on priority lists at all for things like SYS or Sig of Generosity? This way the meta condition is cleansed/removed before the self-inflicted stuff, allowing the Rev to utilize them still for condition thresholds.

So…you’re in agreement with me that Mallyx gets weaker if you have typical party support. I was responding to the OP’s proposition of having those skills work off of a buff that’s gained upon receiving conditions rather than working off of conditions themselves.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Uden Reavstone.3426:

Now that the Revenant has weapon swapping, will weapon swap sigils still trigger on Legend swapping? Sorry if this has already been asked.

On swap sigils will trigger both from weapon swap and invoking a legend for the next iteration you all get to play. It’ll be a thing we have to see how it plays out and address whether it stays or goes away after the feedback we get.

Awesome news. I imagine that if one of them goes, it will be the legend-swap proc?

Nor does food. Only siphoning traits and Signet of Vampirism.

Ragion.2831:

I’m a little worried that with the addition of stab to “Chilled to the Bone” and “You’re all weaklings”, they may have done something to the stability on Infusing Terror. That would be monumentally irritating, especially seeing as that is the best source of stability for smaller fights.

I wouldn’t be. In the initial Reaper reveal, they had stated that YAAW had been changed to a stunbreak and gained a stack of stability like Well of Power, but the displayed tooltips didn’t show it because that change happened after recording. Chilled to the Bone, they also said during the Reaper reveal would probably change from Resistance to Stability.

phys.7689:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

A sub fee is the dinosaur of gaming. There is nothing to be gained from adding $15 a month except a smaller gaming population.

Not saying this game should get a subscription, but the reason its a dinosaur is because the current models gets them more money for less effort.

Depending on bow you play, that model may be to your advantage, but it isnt automatically a better service.

Think about it this way.
Unlimited talk and text is a subscription
Pay per minute/base minutes is gem shop

Who is the better depends on your own usage style.

Not the best comparison, since pay-per-minute plans also have limited time, so you still have a subscription.

No, subscriptions are a dinosaur because the microtransaction (and no sub) route works out much more in the players’ favor. To get the player’s money, they need to make something that the players feel is worth their money. Employees and bills have to be paid, regardless of the release of content, so microtransactions force the company to keep trying to make things the players think are worth buying.

Subscriptions, on the other hand? They only have to make it good enough that people don’t cancel their subscriptions. And to be honest? That’s a pretty low bar. Requires work, still, but you can get away with a lot more lousy stuff that way.

A small note, but Signet of Vampirism also hits you through Evades. That said, the debuf itself doesn’t do anything. It’s attacks following it that do.

Miyu.8137:

Maybe because the players simply doesn’t believe to rangers or they are just bad playing it. I will still repeat it. Ranger is one of the best classes according me. Most ppl just having no clue how to use it.

I am not gonna argue with you or with anyone about how to play pvp. As for me the most important factor in pvp is 1v1 anyway, since in 3 points game you mostlikely fight on 2 nodes 1v1.

But back to ranger. I can’t see what other classes have while ranger doesn’t. Ranger can support your teams as any other class or even better, while still be one of the best 1v1 class.

A few reasons why.

1. Ranger is designed to be a skirmishing class, which means they really can’t contest nodes. They have to keep moving to either kite or evade, and the small point sizes (except Foefire mid) don’t really let you do that.

2. Team support is very limited to a couple interrupts and Healing Spring. If it wasn’t for the mass of AoE cleansing, we could add Muddy Terrain and Entangle to that list. Ranger is pretty good at buffing itself, but allies…not so much. Before you mention Spirits, sorry, those suck.

3. Weak in most teamfights due to the pet getting AoE’d down, removing a decent portion of the Ranger’s damage and utility (dead wolf hurts the Ranger a ton)

The issue with Ranger in PvP right now isn’t that Rangers are weak. It’s that they are ill-suited to conquest. I suspect they will be one of the higher professions for Stronghold once a meta develops there.

apoidea.7095:

Khristophoros.7194:

Super speed would be nice.

What would be even better would be remove the ICD on the shroud traits that cast abilities when you enter shroud. Speed of Shadows reduces the shroud CD but all of the other traits that could benefit don’t because they have ICDs.

I agree.

Beyond the Veil, Life from Death, Foot in the Grave, and Furious Demise all don’t have ICD’s and they work amazingly with Speed of Shadows.

They should remove the ICD on Spiteful Spirit and Weakening Shroud to add synergy! (Maybe make spiteful spirit useful =3=).

Weakening Shroud’s cooldown is only for the weakness on crit. The DS entry effect doesn’t have one.

Vizardlorde.8243:

How does dps go down with more targets? Id understand if it was not increased as much as other cleaving weapons but to say it goes down sounds dishonest. Also the coefficients havent been calculated properly so the margin of error on the max theoretical dps could be larger than 1k.

It’s also explicitly increased as more targets are present, since the third strike drops a small splash damage. If you have three cleaved and clumped together, that splash effectively hits 9 times.

Kidel.2057:

You are still ignoring the biggest issues:
50 energy cost, and JW is on Revenant.
Revenant and Reaper are completely different classes. Read the post above yours.
Is like complaining that Mesmers need an Elite to gain AOE stealth, while Thiefs can do it with an utility.

Reaper can do some crazy combos. Ws to grasp target, shout to remove boons (stability), chill to prevent them from running, fear to block their dodge/skills.
Nothing like that on Revenant, since you can’t customize anything.

Also Revenant is so weak atm that even if JW is strong it would only make it an average class.
Reaper is good as it is.

Revenant can as well. Sword/Axe 5 to grasp targets (but other skills have short enough cast times to use that as a setup), Banish Enchantment to remove boons (same number as NCSY), Chill to prevent them from running (yeah, Revenants actually have decent Chill access) or simply keeping up with their mobility skills, hard CC on every weapon set to keep them from using skills.

Literally everything you mentioned as a Reaper advantage, the Revenant has as well. Hell, Sword (or Mace)/Axe Shiro/Mallyx can pull it all off and still has a weapon slot to spare (probably staff for cleansing). Jade Wind will not be difficult at all to set up. Yes, you will have to plan things out a little more, but that is the nature of the Revenant and resource management as a whole. People who played GW1 will adapt quickly.

And no, Revenant was weak on its first test weekend. Since then, it has seen a lot of changes and also got its DPS weapon, legend, and traitline. You can’t say it’s weak until we get a chance to play with those.

Kharr.5746:

Things that are super effective vs MM necro:

1) Trap condi trap ranger (melts minions in about 3 seconds).

7) Burn guardian melts MM.

Not really on these. The minions are likely to just load you up with all the conditions you just applied, and the Necro can handle condition pressure much better than you can on either of these builds. Especially when it’s returned to you fivefold.

Kidel.2057:

3 targets and 20 energy. Meaning you’ll need about 90 energy for the whole thing to work.
and you can still fail. It only takes 1 dodge roll.

CttB doesn’t need any of this crap. Simply fear+chill and then pop it. You fail? Who cares, no energy lost.

Basilisk Venom can’t even fail.

You are wrong on sooooo many levels.

1. Reaper has no fears at all that are long enough to cover CttB’s cast time (only 1 second long). The Chill (I have no clue why you keep bringing it up) does nothing to prevent people from avoiding it.

2. Basalisk Venom can easily fail if the next two attacks don’t do anything. And, of course, Stability counters all three discussed skills.

Can it fail? Of course it can fail! If it couldn’t, it would be broken.

Kidel.2057:

There is no reason to use jw in single target like after jalis taunt. You swap to shiro, pop jw then what? 0 energy and legendswap on cd. Game over

Simply using healing+impossible odds is so much better in single target.

You have no skill to keep multiple enemies in place for the aoe.

Sword offhand has an AoE immobilize. That works for 3. Axe offhand has an AoE pull which can keep 5 in place to set it up.

The only reason to taunt->Jade Wind is guaranteeing as long of a disable as you can. This is not something you normally do in 1v1. Even so, Sword auto is hardly a bad thing to be doing while you’re waiting for energy to regen.

And you also have 3 seconds to regenerate energy without retaliation.

Kidel.2057:

Lol, an entire team caught by JW? You can only taunt one.

And it hits 5 targets, regardless. You can potentially land those 5 man stuns, but more likely, you just hit 2 or 3. One would be the one you taunted, one or two others would be out of dodges. This is a very likely situation, and even two people doing absolutely nothing will swing a team fight.

Kidel.2057:

It’s a little bit pointless. All that risk for 3 attacks and 1 assault?
Isn’t just shiro healing+impossible odds + assault + AA much better? In terms of dps is twice as effecrive.
You get to do more damage in less time and with no risk, with jalis legend always ready to back you up.

Does Shiro healing+ Impossible Odds+AA set up a won teamfight? Jade Winds can. 3 seconds of an entire team not doing anything is downright devestating.

Let’s be clear: Jade Winds is never to be used for DPS itself. It’s used for setting up either yourself or teammates.

Kidel.2057:

none of the CCs Revenant has can help to connect JW.
Reaper can simply fear+chill and do CttB on a helpless enemy.

Bull. Every CC but the staff that the Revenant has can be chained into Jade Winds. It’s not even difficult. Pulls disable for ~1 second, Jallis’s taunt lasts 2 seconds, which is more than enough time to legend swap+Jade Winds. OHSword also has a 2 second immobilize.

And without using energy, Jade Winds can easily be a .9 second cast. If you have about 60 energy, you can Quickness+Jade Winds. Getting it below a half second cast will not be uncommon.

Kidel.2057:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

Can’t use taunt with Shiro, Pulsing Displacement will prevent your enemies into falling into Jade Winds, daze on elites can’t be used before actually doing the elite, Axe pull can’t be used to help jade winds either (lasts for the cast time, nothing more).
And how are knockbacks supposed to help you connect JW?

Fear+chill on the other hand force the enemy to use a stunbreaker and keep him from running away from your CttB. If it doesn’t have a stunbreaker then CttB is 100% sure to connect, since chill+fear will basically force him in range

Revenant can’t do it. Simply can’t. Has no cc that can actually help connect JW.

Jallis taunt is 2 seconds. You taunt→swap→Jade Wind and have a 1 second leeway before the initial Taunt even wears off.

Likewise, the Daze on Elite can be Elite→ swap→Jade Winds.

Axe pull can be used to set up other CC, or even straight to Jade Winds (the disabled time from a pull is ~ 1 second). Hell, even OH Sword has two methods of ensuring Jade Winds can land. A 1 second cast is not difficult to land with even minor setup.

Oh, and lets not forget that Revenants can get 10% increased attack speed from a trait, which would include Jade Winds. If you have ~60 energy, you can make it a super-fast cast as well.

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

And no, you can’t compare “Feel My Wrath” and “Strength of the Pack” because those two to vastly different things. You can compare jade Winds to CttB because they both do very similar things: both are 600 radius AoE stuns that do identical damage unless further traited.

Kidel.2057:

Revenant can’t trait anything in Jade Wind.
Might can be traited is on any Shiro skill,

Contradicting yourself, much? Is Jade Winds not a Shiro skill?

Also:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Momentary_Pacification Strips an additional stack of Stability. With the Devestation grandmaster, this means anything with 3 stacks or less of Stability is still going to get nailed by Jade Wind.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diabolic_Inferno inflicts Burning as well. Notice that Shiro skills are equally good regardless of if you’re running Condition or Power, so he is a valid choice for condi Revenant (other than that leaves you totally reliant on allies cleansing you when needed).

Since when has Chill made avoiding any skill harder? It doesn’t make anything harder to interrupt, blind, block, dodge, etc.

Also, the benefits you list after “8s of Chill” are only if the Reaper traits for them (other than less damage from chilled foes). This is a lot like, oh, Revenants traiting for Might on Jade Wind?

And why would a Revenant want to slot any of their other elites in place of Jade Winds? You can still swap it out for racials or Mistfire Wolf, if you’re really concerned.

Looks like a good solution to me. In solo play, it won’t really make too much difference, but in group play, you’re not neutered because your allies are helping you.

Kidel.2057:

Sagat.3285:

Just a though they could have a minor in corruption that consume 1 sec from conditions while under resistance 1 sec interval.

that would go against the class legend mechanic that benefits from having conditions.

the problem is that atm you can only couple mallyx with jalis, since you need his condi cleanse.

a possible solution would be to make the elite skill transfer 2s of conditions instead of copying 2s of them.
Edit: no, it’s OP. 10% in all stats + invulnerable to conditions…

You could couple Malyx with Ventari instead. Good cleansing on there. Better, actually, since that cleanse doesn’t have a 30 second cooldown. Could also use staff as a second weapon set for additional cleanse.

nearlight.3064:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Tristan.5678:

Nice topic guess this is the resson Necro are not in any meta not in Pve nor PVP .. we are just too good for meta that why we get instantly kicked from every where ..

Read again. Necromancer and Ranger currently feel like the only balanced professions. Everyone else is over the top, though, which means N/R can’t compete.

I’d also add engineer to the mix. Sure cele rifle was OP in the previous meta, but trait changes prevent it from being able to have high physical damage, condi pressure, and sustain all in one build.

And condis and burst damage eat it alive.

Now power engi builds are more popular, and in the case of marauder engi… you need to be amazing to even survive since a block, stealth, and two invulns won’t be enough to save you from a mesmer.

So yeah the non meta pvp classes are in fact the only ones with actual exploitable weaknesses, even though they are strong at many things in their own right, thus being balanced.

Yeah, I forgot engie. I’m not as familiar with them post-patch.

Kidel.2057:

I think Lich form is better tbh, even then JW.

Situationally, I would agree with either one being superior. Enemy Guardian just popped Stand your Ground? Jade Winds won’t do jack. 1v1? Jade Winds has the edge, sorry.

A 3 second AoE stun will always be useful and powerful. Period. The effect of the skill is extremely strong, so it does deserve a high cost associated with use. Whether the given costs are too much? I’m not convinced. It certainly looks like the best elite skill Revenenats have right now (though admittedly, only Embrace the Darkness is any good out of the other three).

Also, as for DPS, every Revenant weapon got buffs since the test weekend. Heck, Hammer 3 got a whopping 75% damage buff. Their DPS with just weapon skills may not be that bad.

Kidel.2057:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

cut

1) All? Let’s say 3 weaponskills at best. And you need to be in combat already and wothout basically using any skill before. I don’t see that happen very easily, and if you let a Revenant build so much energy then you probably deserve to die.
2) That’s a lot. How can you say JW is better? That alone is huge.
3) Sure, did you miss Roy saying the same about JW, that is actually bigger? Posted a screen earlier.
4) We’ll see. Even if damage is the same, Reaper gets extra damage from chill. Plus more effects (like less damage received and so on)
5) Stacks in duration, it’s always useful. You get more damage and more effects (as the 10% damage reduction I mentioned). I’d trade 1 extra second of stun for all that stuff and chill.
6) AHAHAHAH Drop the hammer. Seriously? You’re comparing Necro’s instant CCs with Drop the Hammer? That has 15 energy cost and a longer cast time then Jade Winds, and even a bigger telegraph. DtH is a useless waste of energy. Revenant has basically no CC except jade winds.
7ish) Again, 3 JW means you don’t do anything else. 1 CttB gives you freedom to attack.

And are we seriously comparing Necro to Revenant? I know that Necro is not the brightest class atm, but it’s still better then Revenant and even has more survivability.

1: Yes, all weapon skills. The most expensive weapon skill a Revenenat has is 20 energy, which, conveniently, is exactly the amount you would have left in that situation (casting Jade Winds at 70 energy). 70 energy is just 4 seconds after legend swap, so that’s not a large amount of time to deal with. 2 auto cycles will handle that period. Hardly a “you deserve to lose if you let that happen” thing.

2: Jade Wind is better because it is available much more often and is also much more likely to actually land.

3: One frame of each animation (especially cherry-picked) does not tell a story. CttB is just as visually noticeable as Jade Winds.

4: Depends on how Chill gets applied in a situation-by-situation basis. Remember, only the 5 newest stacks of Chill will run, so if CttB hits, then procs Sigil of Ice, Chill of Death hits, which then procs Chilling Nova, you’d better hope that 2 more Chills aren’t dropped rapidly to shove the CttB long duration off entirely. Actually, Chilling Nova could potentially proc twice in there if they were chilled beforehand, meaning one more chill from any source shoves off CttB. Not really worth balancing around, but this particular situation isn’t necessarily that farfetched, but caps the Chill stack literally instantly.

5: Again, CttB isn’t necessary for those things. Any source of Chill works for those (though no DoT on Chill someone else applies).

6: When they’re already stunned for 3 seconds, it’s not like you’re going to miss DtH. Hardly a waste of energy to keep an entire group disabled for 5 seconds.

7: 3 Jade Winds in 120 seconds is allowing you quite a lot of flexibility to do other things. That’s only 20 seconds of energy regen assuming you’re not legend swapping at all. Surely in a 2 minute time period, you can manage 20 seconds of auto-attacking.

Kidel.2057:

As I already said
1) Has no energy cost, even with a long cd you have all your skills to spam
2) Has stability / resistance (not sure which one)
3) Has a less visible telegraph (not a giant green tornado on the head)
4) Has higher base damage
5) Has a lot of chill, meaning (with traits) more damage (over time?), more cc, and exploding spreading chill. Basically the skill has sinergy with the Reaper, unlike Jade Winds.
6) can be combined with more cc utility skills (like fear), while revenant can’t pick the other skills

1: So do Revenants that pop Jade Wind, then swap legends. Your energy is set to 50, then, but even so, a lot can happen with that 3 second stun. What happens when you pop it at, say, 70 energy instead? You have all of your weapon skills available to you and, frankly, you don’t need to use any other utilities if you got off a good Jade Wind.

2: Most recent iteration is 2 stacks of Stability for each foe hit.

3: Perhaps you missed the blog post where the animators were talking about how much work they put into the animation for Chilled to the Bone? It has quite the noticable wind-up on its own, and double the cast time means it is faaar more likely to be blinded, dodged, or interrupted than Jade Wind. Chilled to the Bone is just as telegraphed as Jade Winds, but still takes twice as long to pull off.

4: Not true at all. Reaper reveal appeared to have been done in Soldier amulet. Shiro reveal was done on Assassin’s amulet. That difference in Power stats easily accounts for the difference in damage, making it seem like Jade Winds will hit just as hard as CttB.

5: Reaper in general has a lot of Chill. In practice, the Chill from their elite won’t mean a whole lot, since Necros don’t lack for ways to apply it. Jade Winds doesn’t lack for synergy with Revenant either, given how legend swapping works as well as the low energy costs and cooldowns on weapon skills. Plus, Shiro is the DPS and burst legend. How does a 3 second stun not synergize? Also, Impossible Odds into Jade Winds sets off a very potent stun very quickly.

6: Revenant can swap to hammer and chain Jade Winds to Drop the Hammer for even longer AoE lockdown for allies to wipe the floor with. Or legend swap to Jallis for Forced Engagement (since you have the energy for that) to chain their CC that much longer.

Even in normal play, you can still easily get off three Jade Winds in the time it takes for CttB (the easier skill to avoid) to come off cooldown.

Kidel.2057:

But nothing op here. It’s still inferior to Reaper’s Elite.

…how?

1 second shorter stun, double the cast time, and roughly six times the effective cooldown.

In exchange for an 8 second base Chill and some Stability stacks if you hit someone. The damage is about the same (Reaper reveal appears to have been in Soldier’s gear, Shiro in Assassin’s).

Blood Bond.
/15char

Sunshine.5014:

Ill wait for the Dev’s explanation. And if it’s bad, I’ll switch to main Revenant.

They have heavy armor, dual sword, and 30 skills

20 skills. 10 for each half of the bar.

Eles have 25 skills.

If quantity of skills available to you was your primary concern, you’d be sticking with Ele.

Suffer might be okay if they dropped the cooldown even further, actually. Dropping it to like a 15 second cooldown might work out.

TheLastNobody.8319:

……wait are necros really considered that big of a threat nowadays? No seriously, maybe I’ve been spending too much time in the necro forums and all the negativity there right now is affecting my perception and play?

Necros have always been decent in 1v1’s, which is what the lists all rank.

For Zealot’s gear, the sprockets can also come from a home instance node you can get from the laurel merchants in cities.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Seriously, the best idea I’ve seen for Diamond Skin is as follows:

Diamond Skin: Gain resistance for 4 seconds when you enter Earth Attunement.

2-4 seconds is probably the ideal range. No health threshold, though.

Tristan.5678:

Nice topic guess this is the resson Necro are not in any meta not in Pve nor PVP .. we are just too good for meta that why we get instantly kicked from every where ..

Read again. Necromancer and Ranger currently feel like the only balanced professions. Everyone else is over the top, though, which means N/R can’t compete.

Suffer is still bad. Better to just run Plague Signet. At minimum, Suffer needs to transfer 2 conditions per hit to compete.

Chilled to the Bone is too long of a cast. I know they’re proud of the animation they did, but it’s a weaker Jade Wind with double the cast time and 12 times the effective cooldown.

ronpierce.2760:

nearlight.3064:

Hahaha if you think thats strong, wait till you fight a downstate shiro revenant.

3 second AoE stun on down +25% damage with sigil procs and their downstate skill that moves the stomper away even with stability?

You’ll just love it.

Let’s be fair here, who’s going to spec for downed state over 150 ferocity or Might stacking…? O.o

Only bunker builds, that I could imagine… And I don’t see a ton of bunker builds taking Devastation.

Anyone wanting to use Staff or Hammer might consider not taking the Ferocity, since that requires dual-wielding. The Might stacking is also pretty weak, since Shiro skills have decently high energy costs.

Gruvel.7059:

Been a big believer that the Necromancer is probably the most balanced class in the game for a while now and I find it funny how low people rank this class in comparison to others.

The funny thing is, I would say Necromancer is the most balanced class in the game right now. The issue is that everyone else is over the top.

When you look at Necro traits and skills, you mostly (coughwellofdarknessand axecough) see things with good effects with an increase in counterplay as the power increases. The stronger something is, the more that can be done to avoid or minimize its effects.

With other professions, the strongest stuff also usually has the least counterplay available, due to short or nonexistant cast times, extremely strong defensive measures, or extremely short cooldowns.

Azel.4786:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azel.4786:

The problem with conditions Power is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse block it” or “use resistance invulnerability”.

Cleansing Blocking it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi power hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse block it but condi power builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions damage all the time, so you can’t out cleanse block what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse blocks while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi*damage* they can give you.

Resistance invulnerability is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance invulnerability so it is a meaningless argument to say "hey just pop resistance invulnerability ".

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power condi? Cleansing, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi power? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards toughness, vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi trait that effectively reduces 20% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions*block their attacks*, then they just go sky high on the stacks burst and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi *burst dealing classes, particularly engi war, thief and mesmer (IMO).

Well, that was fun. Not that difficult, either. Fact is, mindless cleansing, just like mindless blocking, will get you killed. If you’re fighting a condition build, you have many more opportunities to react and defend yourself. Every bit of active defense that works against a Power build is equally effective against a condition build, but cleanses and Resistance (yes, Resistance is rare) are additional bits of active defense that direct damage does not have.

Guess it’s easy when you completely ignore the arguments huh?

Let me explain in more detail to you:

Invulnerability: Which class doesn’t have it again?

Blocking: Oh right, some classes don’t have this one…

But let’s focus on the main argument shall we, for I really liked your inclusion of toughness, that one is gold.

So when the main argument I post is the lack of a direct counter stat against condi damage you use the fact that there is one for power in yours? Please explain to me again how that does not undermine your argument….

And on burst builds, I never mentioned that I don’t think there are some that do absurd damage. There are and there needs to be some fixes to that, e.g., Mesmer burst is just insane right now and so too is Warrior rampage elite.

Invulnerability is absent on half the professions: Necromancer, Thief, Warrior (though they do have an “immortality” skill, as well as combining skills to mimic invulnerability), and Ranger (only have direct damage immunity), soon to be 5 (Revenant has none, unless it’s on the elite spec). Blocking is likewise absent on Necro and Thief (though Smokescreen does block projectiles).

Yes, Toughness reduces direct damage, but numerous traits, runes, and sigils also multiply it. The same cannot be said for conditions, which get no multiplier via those things. Until recently, they had none at all.

Given every bit of active defense that applies to Power attacks also applies to conditions, and then conditions also have two more counterplay methods, one of which you, personally, don’t even have to do (cleansing is easily done by allies), and yeah, whining that conditions are somehow inherently broken is showing only that you hate them.

And I think I know why: conditions don’t give an obvious moment you can point to and say “I screwed up here.” Those moments are very much there, but because the damage is so spread out over time, as well as frequently being masked by other applications of the same condition, it’s easy to miss if you don’t know exactly what you’re looking for.

Condition application should always be able to out-pace cleansing. Otherwise, there’s no point to applying the conditions in the first place. You can see this futility very easily in WvW groups, where condition builds are downright unwanted entirely because they accomplish nothing in zerg fights. For the game to function properly, any offense must be greater than its associated defense. If it’s not, we end up with either riskless fights (no fun), or neverending fights (also no fun).

Azel.4786:

The problem with conditions Power is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse block it” or “use resistance invulnerability”.

Cleansing Blocking it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi power hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse block it but condi power builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions damage all the time, so you can’t out cleanse block what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse blocks while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi*damage* they can give you.

Resistance invulnerability is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance invulnerability so it is a meaningless argument to say "hey just pop resistance invulnerability ".

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power condi? Cleansing, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi power? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards toughness, vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi trait that effectively reduces 20% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions*block their attacks*, then they just go sky high on the stacks burst and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi *burst dealing classes, particularly engi war, thief and mesmer (IMO).

Well, that was fun. Not that difficult, either. Fact is, mindless cleansing, just like mindless blocking, will get you killed. If you’re fighting a condition build, you have many more opportunities to react and defend yourself. Every bit of active defense that works against a Power build is equally effective against a condition build, but cleanses and Resistance (yes, Resistance is rare) are additional bits of active defense that direct damage does not have.

Tim.6450:

Honestly the condition hate again? I’m getting awfully tired of this.
I can already see al the arguments comming:

condi damage is passive: Sure sigil of fire/air does not exist, neither does chill of death,… .

My armor has no influence: my damage modifiers have no influence.

But protection does not affect condition damage: but resistance does not affect power damage .

Only defensive stats for full damage:
Here is a simple comparison between 2 auto attacks guardian scepter and necromancer scepter.

The guardian scepter scales 0.666 with power but we have to factor in defense and weapon strength and attack speed. The attack speed is o,8 , average scepter weapon strength is 1000 and a guardians base defense is 2271 resulting in a true scaling of 0,36657859973579920739762219286658 dps/power.
necromancer scepter has 3 second auto attack chain inflicting 10 ticks of bleed and 4 of poison all scaling 0.06 dps/tick resulting in a 0,28 dps/condition damage. While poison may bring utility to the auto attack, guardian scepter has a higher range.

Condi’s don’t need to do anything to land damage: outside of a few runes you still have to land skills to apply damage this counts for both power and conditions.

Condi’s have lower cooldowns:
fastest no auto condi applier : shrapnel grenade 5 sec cooldown.
fastest no auto damage dealer: ligthning strike or mighty blow 5 sec cooldown.

Condi can do damage through auto attacks: so does power.

Did I miss some?

Just one that I can think of:
“Power can be blocked/blinded/dodged, etc.”
So can conditions.