I fail to see how one missed skill can cost you the fight when it’s on a max of a 10 second cooldown on the profession with the best overall durability in the game. Unless you are using it as a last-ditch effort because you’re being beaten badly already and need to get some momentum back. In that case, though, losing your adrenaline is meaningless because you won’t survive until the cooldown is available again anyway.
Right now, there’s no drawback to spamming your burst skill on cooldown: you either hit or you keep your adrenaline and get to try again as soon as the cooldown is up. That’s what this major Adrenaline change is adding; a drawback. One that makes it so burst skills can actually be balanced properly.
Well yeah that is true. It’s just for mesmers, helseth suggests that they won’t even need PU, since torment spam will let them faceroll through everything. It’s too strong of a condition to just slap on an autoattack.
No it isn’t. Only on Mesmers is that true because the clone system lets them up to quadruple their condition output. If the clones aren’t applying it, then it can be balanced on an auto.
Heck, even if it was on almost any other weapon, it wouldn’t be so bad, but Scepter clone generation is quite fast.
Have you actually played a Mesmer even once? Are you posting from planet Mars?
Yeah, I do play my Mesmer rather frequently and I use Scepter on my shatter build because it generates clones much more rapidly than any other weapon.
scepter has a low AA speed also barely hit things which is why it needs buff to begin with. Low AA speed is same to scepter clone too .
The thing is we dont have chance to test this yet but problem is anet did balance patch slowly(thanks living story group ) and never reacted to balance issue fast(free signet for war has been used in TOL and no words from anet ,no fix in a month)Low AA speed, but a cycle of the auto is still faster than any clone generation cooldown. The projectiles home, so hitting is not as big an issue as you make it out to be.
Don’t get me wrong, the scepter AA needs a buff, but Torment on Ether Bolt is not what it needs. Ether Blast is fine getting Torment.
I agree with this but if only ether blast gets buffed ,scepter will stay useless .So i think we need something else beside a damage condition on scepter (even i think it wont make pu condi spec op in actual tpvp).But something different from staff , maybe chill/cripple.
Chill is too strong to have on any auto-attack. Honestly, the biggest buff would just be increasing the overall speed of the chain to make the scepter clone’s strength (quantity) stronger. And yeah, Torment on Ether Blast could get a longer duration than 4 seconds. I’d say at least 6 seconds base.
For staff clones inheriting Illusionary Elasticity, I think people are less concerned about that because they figure that’s the way it always should have worked and this is more of a bug fix than a genuine buff.
Doesn’t matter how you perceive it. It significantly improves performance that was good already, so it’s a buff.
Oh, I’m not arguing with what it actually is, just saying why people aren’t making a big deal of it, despite being an incredibly significant change.
I’m willing to bet they will do a small buff to siphon values, but ignore the core issue to them that is the fact Death Shroud makes them worthless anyway.
ArenaNet does do a very good job of identifying what is bad, but isn’t so good at figuring out why it’s bad.
For staff clones inheriting Illusionary Elasticity, I think people are less concerned about that because they figure that’s the way it always should have worked and this is more of a bug fix than a genuine buff.
The problem is that warriors have only one viable build in spvp (hambow). If there was a way I could go axe/mace or sword/sword and not get wrecked by the axis of evil (necro, mesmer, engi) I would. But seeing as how warriors have limited condi removal in spvp we don’t have a lot of options.
You have the options for great condi removal, even ignoring CI. The fact that you don’t like said options is irrelevant to having them.
The thing is, if you want to defend against conditions, you have to sacrifice somewhere else. Just like everyone else.
And yes, necros also have to make a sacrifice, as they give up most of their ability to defend against CC (no Vigor, evade skills, or blocks, very very little stability, and death shroud doesn’t help).
Oh and don’t forget that scepter mesmer can hit highest cond.dmg stat in game i think if not highest then second best…
@Zenith.7301
“Pretty much also the reason condi ele hasn’t existed, because when condi application is cooldown based it can’t possibly keep up with the current state of cleanses and burst.”Condi ele didnt exist cause Ele can apply 2 (two) damaging conditions burn and bleed and thats it,your reasoning fails here…
But you did pretty much hit the nail with that remark, scepter/torch will now be able to apply all conditions and in pretty high stacks with just one weapon set with right sigils,
and if u add retaliation which mesmers don’t have to look far to get even boons are working for condi memser just blocking and auto attacking,lolhere it took me 10 min to make this ,it will punish you for anything you do while i can apply ALL condition on you in few sec:)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlsnpBtlqxRNMrRiuhYqHnsVM0O8W5CA-TpRGwAAeAAG3foZZA0HCgAnAACHBAA
I’m not going to get into how bad this build is.
When you make a build, and you claim something is going to be powerful, make a build that
A) works
and
B) shows why its going to be powerfulSo far, in the supported game mode which is team pvp
I have not seen a PU build that works, while being effective in the supported game modes presented in this game.
Unless someone would like to post statistics which prove the effectiveness of a condi-PU mesmer outside of 1v1’s?
Why are you complaining about this build as a PU build? It doesn’t even have a Grandmaster Major in any trait line.
Well yeah that is true. It’s just for mesmers, helseth suggests that they won’t even need PU, since torment spam will let them faceroll through everything. It’s too strong of a condition to just slap on an autoattack.
No it isn’t. Only on Mesmers is that true because the clone system lets them up to quadruple their condition output. If the clones aren’t applying it, then it can be balanced on an auto.
Heck, even if it was on almost any other weapon, it wouldn’t be so bad, but Scepter clone generation is quite fast.
Have you actually played a Mesmer even once? Are you posting from planet Mars?
Yeah, I do play my Mesmer rather frequently and I use Scepter on my shatter build because it generates clones much more rapidly than any other weapon.
scepter has a low AA speed also barely hit things which is why it needs buff to begin with. Low AA speed is same to scepter clone too .
The thing is we dont have chance to test this yet but problem is anet did balance patch slowly(thanks living story group ) and never reacted to balance issue fast(free signet for war has been used in TOL and no words from anet ,no fix in a month)
Low AA speed, but a cycle of the auto is still faster than any clone generation cooldown. The projectiles home, so hitting is not as big an issue as you make it out to be.
Don’t get me wrong, the scepter AA needs a buff, but Torment on Ether Bolt is not what it needs. Ether Blast is fine getting Torment.
Condition Duration very much affects your DPS
It’s quite clear to me now that you don’t understand the concept of damage per second, so I’ll just leave it at that.
Please, explain to me how I don’t get it?
Damage dealt/time period in seconds = DPS. This is the very definition of DPS.
Condition Duration means you can have higher stacks. More stacks equals more damage dealt in the same time frame. Ergo, the nominator in the DPS equation is increased while the denominator remains the same. Result: higher DPS.
Alternatively, we could alter the time period we’re measuring instead. Taking a condition application and increasing its duration means that for any duration over the base, the condition is ticking for more of it. Same damage/tick, but a higher percentage of the time where it is actually ticking= higher DPS.
There is literally no respectable definition of DPS where increasing condition duration does not increase condition DPS. Possible circumstances, perhaps, when factoring in cleanses or caps on stacks or duration (+100% is max, anything higher has no effect).
@Me Games Ma: Most reliable confusion is still the Mesmer’s domain. Better stacks (duration and quantity) is another story. For Torment, Necros are actually on the bottom for reliability as well.
Scepter AA needed a buff, but a condition on Ether Bolt was not it. Ether Blast’s change is fine, and I’d even suggest boosting that duration further.
Well yeah that is true. It’s just for mesmers, helseth suggests that they won’t even need PU, since torment spam will let them faceroll through everything. It’s too strong of a condition to just slap on an autoattack.
No it isn’t. Only on Mesmers is that true because the clone system lets them up to quadruple their condition output. If the clones aren’t applying it, then it can be balanced on an auto.
Heck, even if it was on almost any other weapon, it wouldn’t be so bad, but Scepter clone generation is quite fast.
Have you actually played a Mesmer even once? Are you posting from planet Mars?
Yeah, I do play my Mesmer rather frequently and I use Scepter on my shatter build because it generates clones much more rapidly than any other weapon.
The reason it’s problematic is that the clone autos are essentially uncleansable torment at max power.
Caveats Drarnor doesn’t mention:
- Clones die if you sneeze in their general direction.
- Few Mesmers will leave clones alive for long or have space to do so.
- Scepter clones still do less damage than a simple staff clone, which also hits multiple targets and/or buffs friendlies.
In total, the reason this buff is so insignificant is because despite how much of a mountain people make out of this molehill, Scepter will still be a pretty terrible weapon, owing still to it’s terrible AA chain.
Just adding a miniscule amount of damage to it won’t help. The mechanics of it are broken, you don’t want to AA with it in the first place.
Caveats you failed to mention:
- Scepter Clones get produced incredibly rapidly, so if one dies, it is literally replaced within 2 seconds.
- Because they’re produced so rapidly, even a shatter is quickly rebuilt from. The alternative is that the Mesmer just keeps replacing the clones, letting the oldest ones die and trigger clone death traits.
- Staff clones are produced much more slowly, so relevant counterplay can be had from killing the clones.
- Staff clones either proc burning (multiple procs actually lower DPS as some damage never gets dealt, plus 4 stacks of Torment deals more damage than burning) or long duration bleeds, which can be cleansed meaningfully, or vulnerability, which nobody really cares about when facing a condition build.
Torment on Ether Blast is perfectly fine. Heck, I’m all for increasing the duration on that further! Torment on Ether Bolt, however, should not happen. There just is not a relevant counterplay option against scepter clones causing Torment. Cleansing the Torment is meaningless because it is back within 2 seconds and killing the clones is meaningless (and possibly dangerous!) because they are replaced so quickly.
The strength of Scepter clones is their sheer quantity. That’s enough of a strength.
Yes, the auto attack on Mesmer Scepter needs a buff. The clones from it, however, do not.
Either Power or Condition damage is good. It’s just a matter of preference.
I’d say get some of each of a necro’s weapons and experiment with the weapon set possibilities. If you like using Axe or Dagger mainhand more, go with power. If you prefer Scepter or Staff, go condition damage.
Yeah, tough to get them now unless you have a sprocket generator in your home instance. That also has a chance to drop blade shards when mined.
Condition application on autoattack is still a terrible thing, and this is a terrible idea.
You can take it out when you nerf the condition cleanse of guardian stacking and ele water fields and warrior constant cleansing and immunities.
You should have tried playing a necro before they got dhuumfire and terror there was a reason nobody used them.
Pretty much also the reason condi ele hasn’t existed, because when condi application is cooldown based it can’t possibly keep up with the current state of cleanses and burst.
I play both a guardian and an ele. I know exactly how much heavily defensive traiting it takes to acquire that level of condition removal, and let me tell you that it takes far more investment than a simple autoattack with some condition damage gear.
Have you tried not trying to constantly be condition-free? Because that will get you killed quickly against condition builds. On my necro, it’s very, very rare that I ever feel I need anything more than Consume Conditions, because I know when using cleanses is actually worth it.
No, the multipliers are a very relevant point. Not having those multipliers is a balancing point to ignoring armor, weakness, and protection. Getting damage multipliers, but not divisors would be imbalanced, as that would make them purely better than direct damage. Likewise, if they obeyed divisors, but not multipliers, direct damage would be superior in every way. Obeying both means that Knight’s gear becomes the best in the game because it simply provides more survivability than anything else.
Condition Duration very much affects your DPS The difference between being able to stack 10 bleeds and stacking 15 bleeds is massive for your damage output, but duration boosts make such a thing possible. Even if you choose to look at it from a “the attacks I land in this time frame will do a total amount of X damage”, Condition duration is still important. An attack that normally applies a 5 second bleed will deal less damage than the same attack landing a 7 second bleed, but the time spent using that attack is identical. The only way that condition duration doesn’t affect DPS is if you say “in this specific time frame, which is less than the total DoT duration, how much damage will one attack do?” This is a very, very screwed up and terrible way of calculating DPS.
Okay, if cleansing is a problem, then how do you handle Power-based attacks? Go ahead, I’m listening. I’m willing to bet you’ll say something along the lines of “block, blind, or dodge,” which is funny, because you can do the exact same thing with condition-applying attacks. Or you’ll say “stack toughness,” which as I pointed out, is an advantage to counteract the disadvantage of not having any damage multipliers. Or maybe you say “heal through it” which works just as well against conditions. But, if you have something else in mind, I’d be happy to hear it. I’m sure it will be very enlightening.
As it is, condition application must surpass removal or else the entire strategy is doomed to failure. All of those death logs people keep prancing about showing how much damage they took from conditions fail to look at the fact they spent a minute or more bleeding That’s a loooong time, and it doesn’t even take into account the time that they had no bleeds on them due to cleanses. This isn’t a case of conditions being overpowering, this is a case of conditions doing exactly what they were designed to do and wear someone down over time.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Aetherblade jumping puzzle right outside LA in Gendarran Fields drops them. Aetherblade Retreat fractal does as well.
Two stats (condition damage and condition duration) with precision a tertiary stat. Conditions have no damage multipliers in either a positive or negative direction (all those traits, sigils, runes, and Vulnerability that give you X% more damage? None help conditions). In addition, they can have their damage reduced after the attack has already hit.
So, again, what is so wrong with having conditions on auto attacks? For every point you can come up with to say that they’re o erpowered or broken, I can come up with one or two more that show that they’re balanced.
Duration is completely unnecessary with the frequency with which conditions can be applied, and it also does nothing to increase DPS (and the vast majority of WvW builds just run the +40% food anyway, which in itself is a staggering value). Precision is also not necessary because condition weapons don’t rely on critical hits to proc; thief pistol, necro scepter, engineer pistol, and now mesmer scepter will all apply the condition even if you have a 4% crit chance.
Also there are indeed damage modifiers for conditions. Sigil of bursting adds 6% to your condition damage value, which makes it even stronger than its counterpart, the sigil of force. One of the rune sets (undead I think? I don’t know for certain) converts a percentage of vitality to condition damage, making for another conversion stat. And finally there are traits like the GM minor trait in the mesmer’s chaos line, which converts 10% of toughness to condition damage. They’re there; it’s just not as plainly written as the ones for direct damage. As for reducing the actual damage of them while they’re applied? I honestly don’t know of anything in this game that does that, so if you’d be willing to enlighten me with an example that’d be wonderful.
Conditions were never balanced to be a standalone source of damage. Things like 100% proc on auto and dire gear are throwing conditions far off balance because of how little there is that can actually counter it.
Again, wrong on every point.
Duration matters. It matters a lot. +100% duration literally means +100% potential damage. More duration means higher stacks are possible. Precision matters to proc traits (Barbed Precision, Incindiary Powder, Sharper Images, etc.) and sigils (Sigil of Earth, Torment)
There are ways to increase your Condition Damage stat (same as Power), but no multipliers. Sigil of Bursting increases your Condition Damage stat by 6%. For every 1,000 condition damage you have without it, the sigil adds 3 damage/bleed tick, 6 damage/poison tick, and 15 damage/burning tick. Sigil of Force multiplies your total damage by 1.05. If you hit for 1k normally, you get 50 damage out of the sigil. 2k, an extra 100 damage.
Reducing the damage of a condition after it landed is called “cleansing,” something you can’t do with direct damage. Although, if you didn’t know about cleansing, that explains a lot about your post.
Conditions were, in fact, balanced to be the primary damage on some auto attacks. Those same attacks have horrid scaling with Power. For example, in sPvP, a Necro Scepter with no trait points, sigil, or runes, but wearing a Zerker Amulet still has about half of the damage on the auto attack come from the 0 condition damage bleeds.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
How is condi-spamming autos any different from direct damage spamming autos? The damage is comprable between the two, all that’s different is which stat it scales off of and how long it takes for that damage to actually happen.
Condition damage scales from one stat and cannot be mitigated. You can protect yourself against direct damage with things like armor, protection, and weakness, but once you’re out of condi removal those 800 dmg/sec burn ticks will deal 800 dmg/sec no matter how defensively built you are.
This game needs to eliminate DPS conditions on autoattack having a 100% chance to proc. Condition damage is not balanced well enough to be so prevalent in PvP combat.
Two stats (condition damage and condition duration) with precision a tertiary stat. Conditions have no damage multipliers in either a positive or negative direction (all those traits, sigils, runes, and Vulnerability that give you X% more damage? None help conditions). In addition, they can have their damage reduced after the attack has already hit.
So, again, what is so wrong with having conditions on auto attacks? For every point you can come up with to say that they’re o erpowered or broken, I can come up with one or two more that show that they’re balanced.
The problem is solely with the Torment being on Ether Bolt. Because Scepter is already a clone factory weapon, there just isn’t a real counterplay option to the endless clones popping out short duaration, frequent Torment. Cleanse? It’s 2 seconds or less before it’s back on you at max stacks from the clones. Kill a clone? It’s 2 seconds or less before that clone is back, smacking you with torment again. This isn’t even factoring in other skills or traits.
With other condition autos, it stacks up, so cleanses can shut out a good amount of damage and buy time while the re-stack. Against Scepter clones, this doesn’t happen.
Keep the Torment off of Ether Bolt. Increase the duration of the Torment on Ether Blast to compensate. The strength of Scepter clones is that there are so kitten many of them. Keep it that way.
@Sagat: Thief has higher HP than Mesmer?
As an auto-attack condition, I’d say Burning is inferior to Torment. Why? Because Torment can stack. There’s no possibility of your clones actually lowering your damage output by all applying burning (and then reapplying before it expires). Constantly renewing burning before it expires actually reduces the damage you deal. Plus, it only takes 4 stacks of Torment to out-damage burning against a moving target (and players will always be moving). Which, by the way, Scepter will easily be able to provide with no condition duration.
Not really, with the amount of cleansing in this game reapplying burning is not only useful, but steady damage. It’s harder to sustain 4 stacks of torment on something like an ele or warrior than simply reapplying burning and getting the beefed up damage up front.
The staff gets a crapton more cover conditions. With 2 staff clones up and an iduelist out my opponent is covered in conditions most of the time while im bathing in boons from winds of chaos and if I get pressured too much i simply lay down a chaos storm.
And on top of that it’s all aoe.
For offensive capability there’s no question staff will still be superior. Nothing will change the fact that the escepter is a backup weapon for when your staff skills are on cd and you want to switch to use iduelist or the pistol stun or to track a thief in stealth.
You will pressure with the staff and the scepter will still be a niche weapon.
And most importantly even with these changes mesmer will be an inferior group play class still only used for duels as phantasm/PU because shatter mesmers get bent over by thieves and warriors.
Cleansing the clone torment is pointless because it’s back up to max stacks within 2 seconds anyway. Cleansing is least effective against short-duration, rapidly reapplied conditions, which is exactly what torment on Ether Bolt leads to.
This is less of a problem on staff because clone generation is much slower, so you can kill the clones to slow the re-stacking and actually get some time. Even if the damage output is a bit higher, the counterplay for staff clones is higher. Scepter clones will be replaced very quickly.
I have no issues at all with putting Torment on an auto-attack. My complaint is purely with it on Ether Bolt, as that is what the endless clones will be using. Increase the torment duration on Ether Blast to let the Mesmer stack it if he wishes, I don’t mind.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Consider the following: The Mesmer never actually needs to auto attack to stack Torment.
Any clone created at all while wielding scepter will cause Torment on their attacks. The Mesmer never actually has to land an auto attack if he doesn’t want to. However, if his other skills are on cooldown, why not stack more torment on you as well as making any clone killing you do utterly pointless?
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. If it wasn’t specifically on the first part of the scepter auto attack, there wouldn’t be a problem. If it were on any other weapon, this wouldn’t be a problem. But it is, so the clones will stack it even as they are being endlessly generated. Cleansing will be utterly pointless because the clone stacking is back up at max within 2 seconds and killing a clone is pointless because it will be up again within 2 seconds.
For all professions, your primary stat is whatever you want it to be. You want to pick your skills and stats to synergize with each other. The only exception is Guardians and Condition damage, because they have only one damaging condition .
Best weapons for solo levelling are really anything. Axe (currently, we know it’s getting buffed in the next patch) is our weakest, though.
Best weapons are generally determined by your stat choices. If you go condition damage, you go scepter/dagger (or warhorn) and staff. Power, you have a bit more flexibility. Really, Staff is handy on any build, but it’s not very good as a main weapon IMO.
Easily! In fact, necro minions are probably the most unreliable part of the class. They do make levelling a breeze, though.
Actually, PvP/WvW are our strongest points. WvW currently has what is known as the GWEN meta, and Necros are the “N”
Necros roam very well with a group. I’d stay back from solo roaming until you’re really familiar with the class, though. The lack of escape ability will cause problems otherwise.
As an auto-attack condition, I’d say Burning is inferior to Torment. Why? Because Torment can stack. There’s no possibility of your clones actually lowering your damage output by all applying burning (and then reapplying before it expires). Constantly renewing burning before it expires actually reduces the damage you deal. Plus, it only takes 4 stacks of Torment to out-damage burning against a moving target (and players will always be moving). Which, by the way, Scepter will easily be able to provide with no condition duration.
Will scepter mesmer be able to hold or cap point in PvP? No.
Why not? What thought process brought you to this assumption?
He assumes (wrongly) that “Scepter Mesmer” means “Prismatic Understanding” Mesmer.
Mesmer needs help, i get it but buffing this cancerous condi build that they have? You are basically promoting no skill gameplay and if this build ever rolls into the meta, that is last nail in the coffin for your so called competitive play. WvW roaming will be deemed dead as well as all you will see is PU mesmers and P/D thieves ( you already see endless of this brain dead OP spec).
How on earth is the scepter no skill? There is no group of three skills in the ENTIRE GAME that are more telegraphed. If you can’t avoid them, it’s your lack of skill.
You can avoid them, but for how long? Those same three skills can be repeated endlessly (as with any auto-attack).
Scepter Clones don’t need some extra effect. The benefit of Scepter Clones is that there are a LOT of them. Anything you could want quantity over quality for, Scepter is your weapon of choice.
Torment on the auto is fine. Torment on the clones is not. Solution? Remove the Torment from the first strike of the chain (the one clones emulate) and increase the duration on the second strike so that the mesmer himself could reach the same stacks.
Well, it kinda was. It was never intended to be exclusive to necros, but it was designed for necros.
Left out? They have not even given the necro changes…
That said, the sceptre change may be OP, but it really needed a buff. The auto-attack is nearly as bad as elementalist’s dagger earth one.
Torment on auto-attack isn’t a problem. Torment on Clones is. Removing the Torment from the first strike in the chain and increasing the duration on the second strike would be fine.
My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?
The condition was designed to counter/punish mobility.
Yes, because necros are intended to be unable to escape, but be really difficult to get away from, hence Torment’s design to punish people that try to escape.
The condition was designed primarily for Necros. Not exclusively for them.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Really? I roam successfully all the time on my necro. Yeah, sometimes I get caught by a zerg or havoc group, but just as often I’m soloing objectives or taking out potential dolyak threats.
Its situational. If you play in a low tier server or non NA prime time you have more chances to not get caught by a zerg or big group. Try to roam in a populated server or main times.
I am not talking about fights, I am talking about “INCOMING! Get out of there FAST” and I reply “Don’t worry, I am a necro” and just minimize to check my facebook.
In that case, I pop Spectral Wall and Plague and stall the zerg, letting my allies have a better chance at getting away.
Or waypoint. That happens a lot too.
The Torment they are adding is a base 2 seconds on the first strike (which clones inherit) and 4 seconds on the second strike.
The reason it’s problematic is that the clone autos are essentially uncleansable torment at max power. 2 second duration every 2 seconds may not be unreasonable in the way of damage, but there is very, very little you can do about the damage. Compare it to Necro scepter where yes, you may always be bleeding, but a cleanse buys you relief as they have to re-stack the bleeds. This won’t be the case with clone torment. You cleanse and within two seconds it’s literally back up at max power again. If you’re moving, you will generally have the equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks on you at all times, regardless of cleansing without the Mesmer himself actually having to hit you at all. This is in addition to the bleed stacks from Sharper Images (which are less consistent, though more damaging, and also truly cleansable).
Killing a clone only relieves its pressure for two seconds or less as the Mesmer pops out another one from its auto attack (or block, or dodge, or Decoy, or Mirror Images). This does not include the possible conditions you take from killing the clone in the first place.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Well yeah that is true. It’s just for mesmers, helseth suggests that they won’t even need PU, since torment spam will let them faceroll through everything. It’s too strong of a condition to just slap on an autoattack.
No it isn’t. Only on Mesmers is that true because the clone system lets them up to quadruple their condition output. If the clones aren’t applying it, then it can be balanced on an auto.
Heck, even if it was on almost any other weapon, it wouldn’t be so bad, but Scepter clone generation is quite fast.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
It wouldn’t even be that bad if it were on any class but Mesmer, if you dropped bleed off Necro scepter AA it wouldn’t be that big a deal because he has bunches of other ability’s he will use other than just AAing. But all a mesmer has to do is spawn a bunch of clones to AA you while the player sits in stealth, uses other skills or just kites you till you die. Plus that 4s hit is not hard to get up to 9s.
Well, other than being impossible to get a 4 second base to 9 seconds due to the cap of doubled duration…
But yes, Torment on auto-attack isn’t a problem on anyone but Mesmer simply because clones inherit the auto-attack. This can, at times, quadruple their condition output (the Mesmer does use other skills, after all).
What use are cleanses against 2 seconds of Torment that is reapplied every 2 seconds? That’s what will be coming out of Scepter clones. Not high stacks, but all but impossible to do anything about.
Really? I roam successfully all the time on my necro. Yeah, sometimes I get caught by a zerg or havoc group, but just as often I’m soloing objectives or taking out potential dolyak threats.
Thief changes are good?
From what Pov?Just check all the profession subforums and you will get an idea about how feels great and who doesn’t .
Dagger did not need cleave, its a singletarget DPS weapon, nn for cleave .
And the poison changes are so crappy, you’ll have to spend all your traitpoints to make them usefull – great …. Not one traitline, no TWO !
Tell me of any profession that needs to do that ?
Dude, Venoms were like that before. The only change is that now you get a bit more reward out of that same investment that you already had to make.
I don’t feel that Scepter clones need to apply anything. The Scepter is the clone factory weapon, making it a decent choice for any build that wants lots of illusions (but doesn’t care about quality). Death of Clone, Shatter, etc. Doesn’t matter. That is the Scepter clone’s strength: sheer numbers.
Consider that it’s effectively 3 stacks of uncleansable torment (2 second duration, 2 second recast per clone). The Scepter auto-attack isn’t the concern, it’s the clones. You can’t even say “just kill the clones” because those clones will be rigged to explode.
Remove the Torment from the first attack, increase the duration of the Torment on the second attack. Clones will no longer be applying the torment in addition to Sharper Images. Torment stacking ability of the Mesmer himself will remain nearly unchanged.
Methinks if the Torment was removed from the first attack (the only one that the clones use) it would be fine.
But yeah, quite likely to be the next Dhuumfire.
I don’t think its a very fine tuned form of control. Isn’t just going to be like activating an active ability for a necro minion or ranger spirit? And nothing more than that?
Not quite. For necro minions, the actives do override whatever the minion was doing. Bone Minions, Flesh Wurm, and Blood Fiend all blow up, Flesh Golem Charges, Bone Fiend immobilizes itself (attack rotation continues as normal, though), and Shadow fiend starts his haunt that will hit when you wake up tomorrow.
Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.
My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?
Has a dev actually stated this condition was designed specifically for necros?
Was there a statement somewhere that they would have exclusivity to it?
Yes they did but then they felt others should also have access to it. The idea is actually from a necro elite skill in gw1 called weaking knees. So it makes sense the most for necromancer. Heck even the name itself works best with necros.
Here is a link:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/hmm, I am not seeing where they stated that it was designed specifically for necros or that necros would have exclusivity to it. What part of that post does it say either of those in?
It wasn’t going to be exclusive to necros, but it was designed for necros. They asked the Necro community for ideas as to the nature of this new “dark-themed DoT” as it was intended primarily for their use.
The fact that the profession that it was designed for has only one skill that applies low stacks on a long cooldown is not as amusing as it sounds.
I would add that lich form will no longer improve power on wells.
Anet will probably do this since they took away the Meteor-Tornado combo from Elementalists
Now that I’ve seen the preview, you’re probably right. Adding it in.
I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.
We Mesmers are holding your Torment hostage contingent upon the return of our Confusion which was stolen by every other profession in the game… I do find it funny how the signature conditions of certain professions seem to get diluted to the point where they are done better by almost everyone else.
On a serious note, I do wonder how this is going to pan out, I don’t want a Dhuumfire debacle for Mesmer. That didn’t work out so well for Necros in the long run.
Eh, at least Necros still have the best Fear access. Everyone else that gets it only has one skill (though those skills do have longer durations).
Truthfully, the damage on the scepter auto isn’t going to be that problematic. Even with 3 clones going, it’s only going to hit about 6 stacks of Torment. With +100% Torment duration, that still caps out at the equivalent of 18 stacks of bleed while moving. The investment that it takes to get doubled Torment duration can net you so much more damage.
My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?
I was more referring to the scepter buff which is going to lead to hordes of mindless condi PU mesmers. I have no problems with the buff to Maim the Disillusioned.
- is in the middle of watching the Ready Up due to just having gotten home from work *
Ah, yeah, if that’s where the buff was, fine. That trait was weaksauce upon introduction.
How is condi-spamming autos any different from direct damage spamming autos? The damage is comprable between the two, all that’s different is which stat it scales off of and how long it takes for that damage to actually happen.
My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?