I would like a weapon set that doesn’t have to rely on stealth to be successful, unfortunately, due to the nature of the thief and it’s squishiness, S/P is hard to work. I think the best way to buff this class to make it useful yet not “OP” is to change blind totally. It should blind for the duration of the condition, not for one hit. Of course this could already render extremely powerful builds like D/P OP, but I feel like D/P is going to be changed in the future, anyhow.
I also think the stun time on pistol whip needs a buff, or let us move while S/P is activated.
I think changing blinds from an inverse aegis to an inverse invul is a bad idea. It would quite literally make my S/D build invincible at melee range.
Yes this issue is known to everyone, and the events are simply unplayable.
I think it’s due to the so called “Dragon Hunters”, people guesting servers to complete events. This should not be possible, and IMO the rewards should be account bound, this would result in people not farming the events with 5 different characters.
I usually don’t want to hasten you guys, but this needs a fix fast. :/
Yeah, I agree. The lag resulting from this Dragon gold rush is terribad. The once a day rule should span all servers.
Guardians, Thieves and Elemenalists do have the lowest HP pool, but despite thier HP pool, Guardians and Elementalists are widely considered the tankiest classes in the game, because of their access to sustained defensive boons and buffs. Thieves only have access to a weak version of Regen.
Ele is per default squishy as hell. Look at all those GC staff eles. they die in seconds. Because of that many eles go for bunker builds. That means traiting for 30 water + 30 arcana (no damage traits) and equipping full PVT armor with clerics trinkets (no damage stats besides power). As runes most choose water + monk (again no damage stats).
Got it? Ele sacrifies all damage to become tanky. Its not the profession itself which is tanky. Compare this to thieves. Most thieves go full GC with a bit of valkyrie because stealth mechanics is so strong compared to the other professions mechanics.
Ele cant go full GC just because they have access to protection and regen. Thats entirely unique to thieves. Stealth is both a superior offensive and defensive game mechanic which totally negates the necessity to trade damage stats for more defense.
This superior defense doesn’t count for kitten in a room full of Embers spouting Lava Fonts. It certainly didn’t save me for one of Malrona’s stray shots. (And I run balanced)
Also there are plenty of Eles that will tell you can get defense and damage if they go balanced. Sure there’s little spike, but there’s sustained AoE, with superior CC, Mobility, Heals and Stunbreaks to boot.
In all honesty, the most success I’ve come up when fighting thieves is with my Ranger (100% pure trap build) and my Ele (AoE staff support/damage build). I basically continuously spam my AoE’s directly on top of me and HOPE the thief isn’t running a long range weapon as a backup.
This obviously isn’t the only way I’ll fight, but if this is an “effective” way to fight it says something about thieves in general.
My proposed solution after playing MY OWN thief?
A) Double the initiative cost for most/all stealth skills. This will force thieves (like me) to make a decision on “do I want to try to burn this guy down? Or do I want a secure escape route?” and not be able to skip into combat happily knowing I can do both.
and/or
B) Increase the amount of damage taken from AoE’s while in stealth by ~2×. I forget where I read it, but somewhere Anet mentioned one of the best counters to thieves would be through AoE. Even without Anet saying this it makes sense to say….. “I cant see him…hopefully AoE will get the job done.” The problem with this is thieves are at a major advantage in these scenarios. If you can’t see me? How in TYRIA are you supposed to know where to place your AoE’s? So, in order of balance, I would be completely fine if I took double or even triple damage from AoE’s while I was in stealth.
and/or
C) Apply a damage debuff that is applied every time a thief stealths in combat. In short. Every time I re-enter stealth within say, a 10 second window, I receive a debuff to my damage, that stacks in relation to the number of times I re-pop stealth. I dont even want to begin to think of how much of a debuff this would be (I would think no more than ~5% per stack) but again, as a thief I feel that something like this would REALLY make combat more interesting. This gives thieves the option to stealth out if they need to, but severely limits the effectiveness of “permastealth”
There are always going to be star-hugging, 2-spamming, heartseeker thieves who QQ every time a class revision is suggested. But I think those of us looking to steamroll someone because we’re actually more skilled, and not because the Anet is holding our hands, will enjoy a revision to Thieves and the stealth-system.
Why not just nerf dagger mainhand to the ground? Then people can stfu about it and stop giving suggestions that will ruin S/D worse then D/D.
Thief is the most squishy class in the game. Lowest HP and lowest toughness in the game. Not speaking about the fact that thief does NOT have an ability to grand himself stability.
Ehm, no. Thief has the same base HP pool than ele and guardian, so its not the lowest. And thief has access to medium armor which results in ~7% more damage reduction compared to light armor classes.
Stability is granted by dagger storm, an extremely OP AOE damage skill granted to a single target damage profession (lol). Not only does it deal extremely high AOE damage in a huge area, ignoring the 5 target cap, it also cripples + reflects projectiles + grants stability.
Thieves are NOT squishy per default. Thieves are squishy because you decide to go (mostly) full glass canon. All the other professions explode on damage spikes when running full GC builds in WvW. Thieves just deal massive damage in a few seconds then vanish in stealth.
Sure, you can hit a thief in stealth. But due to missing hit feedback, thats just pathetic. Looking at the chain animations is not an option because (i) not every profession has access to anytimer chains and (ii) you have to wait for the second hit to actually see if you first hit has landed – at this time the thief may be miles away.
I’ve gotta point out a couple falacies there Teg. You’ve stated Thieves don’t have the lowest HP pool, as if there’s a class with a lower base HP which is untrue. Guardians, Thieves and Elemenalists do have the lowest HP pool, but despite thier HP pool, Guardians and Elementalists are widely considered the tankiest classes in the game, because of their access to sustained defensive boons and buffs. Thieves only have access to a weak version of Regen.
And Daggerstorm is only as strong as what you shoot at it. It’s non-reflective damage is 224, around the damage of most sword auto attacks, and it’s not like it other AoEs in that it doesn’t pulse but literally scatters daggers in all directions, and it doesn’t hit everyone in range. The cripple is 2 seconds, the bleed is 1 stack for 5. The stability is only in effect during the skill, it can’t be used for stomps, it’s not a stun-break and it’s only defense is reflect. Daggerstorming thieves can be focused with non-projectile attacks and they’re sitting ducks in that event unless they cancel the skill early.
Yeah, I suppose there’s really nothing catering to the Sniper demographic in this game.
Thief’s got the sneaky, but lacks the ranged beatdown. Warrior’s got the ranged beatdown, but lacks the sneaky. Wintersday Scout had it nailed, so I know Anet’s got it in them to marry the two somewhere. But for some reason or another that’s apparently just not in the cards for any class to inherit.
It’s a shame you can’t really find your niche.
I’m not really sure what else to say, really.
Good luck to you.
I humbly disagree on thieves lacking the ranged beatdown… i can dish out 1.9-2.7 autoattacks (crit of course) with my SB… that s just autoattack and it ricochets by default… nr.2 ability does 4-6k crit damage AoE (with 25 stacks of bloodlust these numbers) and can be spammed…
for single target you have 2xpistols which gives way more “beatdown” than a ranger SB…
Warrior is just superior single target sniper with rifle (oddly) especially with their F1 skill..
just my personal experience…
I think he’s stating because Thieves’ range is short when compared to other class’ ranged sets. One playing a sniper would want a set that could perform high damage from at least 1200 range while drawing little attention to themselves.
A few high damage hits… Stealth… damage a couple times… stealth.
You lose target, Thief heals while stealthed (typical trait), and you can’t do damage because you lose target constantly and by the time you cast a skill Thief is stealthing.
Such a broken mechanic when I can’t kill what I can’t see or target, and can’t get away with so many gap closers.
The heal stealth sounds more like Hide in Shadows. None of the trait heals are particularly strong, and Thieves going for high damage usually don’t go far into Shadow Arts.
i have only problem with P/D thief, they have mostly high survivability an insane stacking of bleed + still they have c&d from dagger, this is "meta"in wvw atm i think, i see more and more thiefs with this
anet forcing ppl to play thieves, when they want small scale pvp in wvw
I wouldn’t go so far as to call CnD “Meta” in WvW. So far only certain classes are asked for by name (eg. Mesmer for Portal or TW or Eles for Swirling Winds). Though I will admit CnD does make what would be otherwise weak sets, effective. On P/D Sneak Attack and CnD are the only skills worth using. S/D doesn’t have it quite as bad, but CnD to Tactical Strike is certainly was keeps that set from being underpowered.
Nice guide. I wish in the blind section you would have included how Cloaked in Shadow can let Sword/Dagger do permablind arguablely as effectively as pistol off hand, more efficiently, while accessing the other stealth benefits the Shadow Art line can give you. (Regen, Might and Condition Removal in my case)
What about Black Powder perma-blind spam? Or Headshot to wipe away defiant from bosses? (Too bad teams cannot l2p to co-ordinate…) What about Boon-stealing, stealthing, weakness and poison spam?
I find I can sustain Perma-Blind and regular daze better with S/D and Cloaked in Shadow. Throw in Shadow Protector and Shadow’s Embrace and you’ve got sustainable Blind, Daze, Regen, Might, Condition Removal and boon strip. Take Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge and you get team Regen and stealth. Smoke wall, Dagger Storm and Shortbow for the alt and you’ve got even more blinds, poison fields, Blast Finishers, Whirl Finishers and reflection.
The reason I’ve heard was it was to fix a bug that caused mobs including Champions to immediately drop combat when the thief stealthed, causing the mob to fully heal up. It basically tripped their combat over protocol.
The thing I love about these kinds of threads are the large number of people who decide to play a class even though “it’s only good at killing noobs.”
Wouldn’t you rather play a class that is good at killing good players?
I guess there are just a lot of people out there willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in this game. Here’s to all the mesmers and thieves out there fighting that uphill battle.
This one’s for you. /tips the glass
TLDR: Thieves are very strong 1vN classes, but are actually pretty balanced in group fights.
The thing I dislike about these threads are self-appointed experts who basically rehash l2p when even players of their own class admit that the class is overpowered.
The thing I don’t like it ignorant players who know little about other classes slandering them and trying to ruin them so they’ll be brought down to thier level. I don’t complain about other classes or challenges. I analyse them and figure out how to deal with them. I have no respect for those who don’t do the same.
What about those of us who actually play the class extremely well, and don’t understand how others are having issues playing the class???
I have no interest in playing anyone’s style but my own. I know the strengths and weaknesses of my build and will defend it when I feel it is needlessly threatened. As I have stated before I have no interest in playing an a burst set. I have no desire to equip Berzerker gear or stack 30 into Deadly Arts.
I like the feel of Sword/Dagger. How well it plays in tune with the shadow arts tree. It isn’t an OP’d set. It lacks burst, conditions and relies on its auto attack as its sole damage dealer. The set would be underpowered if not for Cloak and Dagger, granting it access to tactical strike. So why should it be ruined just to make a petty attempt to weaken Dagger/Dagger? If you want to nerf Backstab, Mug and Heartseeker, then nerf them specifically and not something other sets make more use off.
The thing I love about these kinds of threads are the large number of people who decide to play a class even though “it’s only good at killing noobs.”
Wouldn’t you rather play a class that is good at killing good players?
I guess there are just a lot of people out there willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in this game. Here’s to all the mesmers and thieves out there fighting that uphill battle.
This one’s for you. /tips the glass
TLDR: Thieves are very strong 1vN classes, but are actually pretty balanced in group fights.
The thing I dislike about these threads are self-appointed experts who basically rehash l2p when even players of their own class admit that the class is overpowered.
The thing I don’t like it ignorant players who know little about other classes slandering them and trying to ruin them so they’ll be brought down to thier level. I don’t complain about other classes or challenges. I analyse them and figure out how to deal with them. I have no respect for those who don’t do the same.
If this is true,then it should be fixed that thiefs can no longer use a wp while just in combat and stealthing.Becuase i think i see this happen WAY to often where a thief just straight up dissapears never to come in sight again.This happens very often with nooby thiefs try to jump me with their google pwn build, but now hit something that knows how to handle them,theyr options to escape are too broad,especially if the above is true.
Read what it says – exit combat. Same rulles apply either you are stealthed or not, you must get far enough from your combatant, if that happens you exit combat allso.
Obvious typo,i meant Out Of Combat.They have the ability to stealth away,get out of combat mode and quickly use a wp,it happens way to often,you prob won’t know if all you play is a thief yourself,not saying you do it,im saying i see it happen way to often that a thief vanishes,while im lookig everywhere for him,and he does not pop back.People still even logout when being killed,they do Everything not to be killed by anyone even in 1vs1 fights,eventhough you have Nothing to lose,people act an play,like a bunch of cowards,its tiresome.
WPing sounds like needless extra leg work. I find hiding behind terrain using my camera to peek around the corner more then sufficient.
SPvP thieves are different from WvW thieves, they nerf their damage and certain specs are more limited (See Condition Thieves, where you don’t have access to Rare Veggie Pizza for example)
its why the title of my thread is Stealth in World vs World needs a nerf
It also why the very first sentence in my OP is
PVE it’s fine, even in structured it’s fine to some extent.
The fact that some Thieves in this thread want to use SPvP now and PVE now is kind hilarious when talking about WvW
Now I seen some posts on here about taking an S/D thief to TA or Orr was it?
What exactly are you wanting the S/D rogue to do..cause if you give me a specific cause I’ll try and film me killing mobs in Orr on an S/D thief without stealth..Though not really sure why that’d matter
TA would be a bit different as Tactical Strike isn’t going to make a big difference as you think in a Dungeon.
From my stand point, in PvP, kitten D has no burst, it needs to pressure to kill effectively and it does it’s best pressuring when you use Tactical Strike and use it often. This is especially the case when you aren’t running glass cannon and it can only be achieved through stealth.
I have no interest in burst builds and I don’t want to be railroaded into one. S/D is more dependent on stealth the D/D so and nerfs to CnD hurt S/D way worse then D/D so I’m against stealth nerfs of this manner. Bringing Dagger main hand in line should only effect dagger main hand.
As for the PvE stuff. In PvE my build uses CnD and tactical strike to achieve Daze, Blind, Regen, Condition Removal and Might every 3 seconds in combat and the blind can happen twice in a row depending where I’m standing. The blinds alone make me able act as a stand in Guardian in dungeon runs with my guild. I don’t think any other set do all that as often az S/D can.
If you do a video, I want to see survivability and team support on that level achieved without stealth.
lol many attacks fail. obstruction blocks half my bow shots
That’s a L2P issue, not a class issue.
What else you got?
nope. it’s evidence that attacks do miss. thus, it refutes your argument.
It’s missing because you’re trying to range the thief when there’s an object between you. That’s what an obstruction is…
My god.
I always try to get behind a tree or something when facing another range if I’m going P/D spec. Obstruction is just that… an obstruction… do you honestly expect your arrows to go through trees and rocks? Geeze… I think your mentality has been nerfed…
nope. not a thing in sight. nice try. proves that not ever attack hits. mate.
Either you’re delusional or your weapon has bugs. Attack success in GW2 isn’t dictated by RNG.
Go read the hundreds of posts on the ranger forum about problems in open field fights with long bows getting obstructed. No terrain, tree or other obstruction in sight. Sorry some attacks do miss for no logical reason. Learn game mechanics, son.
I’ve already stated that the obstructions are unintended bugs. Bug are coding errors. RNG is intended random variables.
So not all attacks hit. Thank you.
The difference is, in this game if there are no obstructions your target isn’t using an active defense and your attacks should hit. If they’re not, they’re not working properly.
In the games you mentioned. Your attacks miss sometimes because they’re meant to miss sometimes.
50% run speed was advertised a few months back…lol
And all sets save maybe D/P can’t access it out of combat out of combat for more then 4 or 10 seconds (all on cooldowns), and D/P would need to pause to drop a new smoke field to leap through every few seconds. That’s a far cry from perma-swiftness. Also Feline Grace can’t compete with all the vigor and endurance recovery Eles have access to.
lol many attacks fail. obstruction blocks half my bow shots
That’s a L2P issue, not a class issue.
What else you got?
nope. it’s evidence that attacks do miss. thus, it refutes your argument.
It’s missing because you’re trying to range the thief when there’s an object between you. That’s what an obstruction is…
My god.
I always try to get behind a tree or something when facing another range if I’m going P/D spec. Obstruction is just that… an obstruction… do you honestly expect your arrows to go through trees and rocks? Geeze… I think your mentality has been nerfed…
nope. not a thing in sight. nice try. proves that not ever attack hits. mate.
Either you’re delusional or your weapon has bugs. Attack success in GW2 isn’t dictated by RNG.
Go read the hundreds of posts on the ranger forum about problems in open field fights with long bows getting obstructed. No terrain, tree or other obstruction in sight. Sorry some attacks do miss for no logical reason. Learn game mechanics, son.
I’ve already stated that the obstructions are unintended bugs. Bug are coding errors. RNG is intended random variables.
Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.
It’s very easy btw.
You must either be new to thief or not very good.
You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.
Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.
So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.
Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.
Why do you have an issue with the Thief in PvE?
That is not Sword/Dagger.
Use the tool for the job. You could easily duplicate the same thing with D/D because of the quick double attack of the Dagger auto attack. I’ll try it with S/D tomorrow, but I primarily run S/P+Shortbow for the teleports. If I remember right, Flanking Strike is actually pretty nice against tougher, single mobs like Veterans or some Champions, and Sword auto attack hits multiple targets if you position right, so I’m pretty sure it is doable with my current build.
Just keep in mind you are supposed to prove that S/D doesn’t need stealth to perform well, as well you need to prove it has a lot of group support without stealth.
Take a look at the build I posted. I want the something equivalent to that in group survival support.
Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.
It’s very easy btw.
You must either be new to thief or not very good.
You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.
Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.
So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.
Slot Signet of Malice, and his health would probably never drop. I have a bunker build, and when I come up to a camp, I switch to Signet of Malice, and take the entire game with ease, solo.
Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.
It’s very easy btw.
You must either be new to thief or not very good.
You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.
Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.
So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.
If you don’t know about the evasive build thief, means you have literally no thief experience.
Also, PVE lol
Post it. You’re reluctance is showing you’re more talk then anything. And it better be able to grant all the blinds and dazes of my build as well as the team regen.
Columba. I extend that challenge to you too. S/D Theif, TA, Orr, no stealth, recorded. No hiding behind your party. Make it happen.
It’s very easy btw.
You must either be new to thief or not very good.
You’re skirting the issue. If it’s so easy then prove it.
Sorry but I’m not making a video showing you evasive build thief. There’s already a few around and they can facetank PVE crap all day, better than most other classes.
So you can’t prove it then.
As you should know, S/D’s only decent attack skills are its auto-attack and tactical strike. In that respect it’s the more defensive of the 2 sword sets, lacking a true burst move and needing stealth to achieve its control style gameplay. The fact that it requires stealth to Daze unlike S/P, makes it more in tune with the traits in the Shadow Arts tree, where kitten P’s access to blind and daze without stealth and having Pistol Whip makes the set more offensively oriented out of necessity.
lol many attacks fail. obstruction blocks half my bow shots
That’s a L2P issue, not a class issue.
What else you got?
nope. it’s evidence that attacks do miss. thus, it refutes your argument.
It’s missing because you’re trying to range the thief when there’s an object between you. That’s what an obstruction is…
My god.
I always try to get behind a tree or something when facing another range if I’m going P/D spec. Obstruction is just that… an obstruction… do you honestly expect your arrows to go through trees and rocks? Geeze… I think your mentality has been nerfed…
nope. not a thing in sight. nice try. proves that not ever attack hits. mate.
Either you’re delusional or your weapon has bugs. Attack success in GW2 isn’t dictated by RNG.
Lots of thieves in here trying too hard to defend the indefensible.
No, nerfing stealth will not destroy the thief class.
The class mechanic is steal by the way, not stealth – the same way the necro mechanic is DS and not fear.
But that’s neither here nor there.
Stealth can be nerfed just fine without invalidating thieves. Right now, it’s too strong.
The only reason thieves don’t dominate the sPVP/tPVP meta is because you can’t cap a point in stealth. In WVW this isn’t a major weakness.
Also viability in PVE? You can finish a dungeon run with 5 untraited thieves in green gear. Who the hell cares about PVE balance.
Go roll an S/D Thief. Go to Orr and Twilight Arbor, and don’t die while engaging the enemies as if you were a Warrior. Bar yourself from using CnD and record it. Then I’ll lower my stance on stealth.
A picture of my 80 thief (sexy eh), full exo multiple sets all weapons
Orr and TA, please. PVE is hard yo.
Stealth does need a nerf.
That’s a very nice screenshot. But it doesn’t prove anything. I want to see you prove S/D doesn’t need stealth to be effective in endgame PvE.
lol many attacks fail. obstruction blocks half my bow shots
That’s a L2P issue, not a class issue.
What else you got?
nope. it’s evidence that attacks do miss. thus, it refutes your argument.
It’s missing because you’re trying to range the thief when there’s an object between you. That’s what an obstruction is…
My god.
err.. i would challenge this.. in AC trying to hit the burrows with shortbow auto attack is painful.. (with nothing between you and the burrow targetted)
err.. i would challenge this.. in AC trying to hit the burrows with shortbow auto attack is painful.. (with nothing between you and the burrow targetted)The word that pops up on my screen is indeed Obstructed.. I had a very hard time finding what that obstruction is.
Even so, that particular obstruction is an unintended bug, not dictated by an RNG system. When you miss in the other games Columba mentioned, it isn’t a bug, but rather an intentional result of the RNG system at work.
And when Columba’s shots at a thief are getting obstructed, it’s likely because he doesn’t account for the terrain around him, and the arrows collide with obstacles in the terrain.
Lots of thieves in here trying too hard to defend the indefensible.
No, nerfing stealth will not destroy the thief class.
The class mechanic is steal by the way, not stealth – the same way the necro mechanic is DS and not fear.
But that’s neither here nor there.
Stealth can be nerfed just fine without invalidating thieves. Right now, it’s too strong.
The only reason thieves don’t dominate the sPVP/tPVP meta is because you can’t cap a point in stealth. In WVW this isn’t a major weakness.
Also viability in PVE? You can finish a dungeon run with 5 untraited thieves in green gear. Who the hell cares about PVE balance.
Go roll an S/D Thief. Go to Orr and Twilight Arbor, and don’t die while engaging the enemies as if you were a Warrior. Bar yourself from using CnD and record it. Then I’ll lower my stance on stealth.
That’s why most games don’t allow stealth to lose aggro. The change made great sense, and thieves are still very powerful.
That’s not even true. Every single MMO that I’ve played treats stealth exactly the way it worked prior to this patch. Puts you out of combat, resetting the aggro table. This change makes no sense, both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint. I don’t care how much you try to justify it for WvWvW reasons, it’s game breaking in PVE. Stealth is a core mechanic and main form of defense for thieves, if we cannot manage our threat using it, we’re as good as dead.
No. Aion, dark age, wow, EQ all had stealth drop once a stealther attacked or took damage.
Aion, Dark Age, EQ and Wow all have passive evasion. GW2 doesn’t.
so what? there’s no connection. they had worse graphics too, lol.
The connection is this. In all those other game every attack had chance to fail even if the animation was a clear hit. Attacks going through wasn’t determined by hit boxes but by a set of equations random numbers akin to Dungeons and Dragons rules. In those games in you hit a stealther you have low chance of the attack actually working, things like 40% chance to hit or worse. In GW2 if the animation hits you hit box, and you don’t have evade, blind or block status, there is a 100% chance your attack will hit.
This would be crippling, more than you know. I can already see someone who doesnt have the blind on stealth trait CnDing someone the same time that someone attacks them. So they not only lost half their initiative, but now they are not in stealth…….wonderful
not crippling. it happens in every other game.
In every other game you miss every other attack you send at a stealth class because whether you hit or miss is dictated by random number generators. In GW2 if you hit you hit.
Its a shame a nerf intended for wvw hits the pve players :-/
It’s not because of WvW. It’s because Thieves were dropping resetting mobs when they didn’t want to. Things like putting Lupi into its reset cycle in the middle of battle. It’s incredibly annoying when a champion drops combat and gets full health.
From a practical standpoint, thieves are immune in stealth unless someone gets lucky with a random aoe. In most games, stealth isn’t possible while you are in combat. It’s very easy to move out of danger while in stealth.
What everyone else has said. ^
Also I’d like to add. In those other games Stealthers almost always have a passive evasion stat, meaning all attacks directed at them have a chance to miss for no other reason then “the game mechanics said so”. That element doesn’t exist in GW2, instead evasion’s all on the player.
^^ Id just ignore Daecollo’s comment on sword pistol no longer being viable. I’ve been playing sword pistol for about 40 levels so for…currently 64 and i have seen no change what so ever. still seems perfectly fine in dungeons and pve, don’t do too much pvp and whatnot with that weapon choice. Anyways they fixed bugs more than anything it seems.
I see no logic in his reasoning with S/P no longer Viable. just as most people are dropping comments saying they seen no change. Trust me my friend S/P is still perfectly fine
You’re 64, and you don’t pvp much (let alone use S/P in pvp), yet you’re here arguing with others about skill changes?!?
It’s not the skill that changed. He’s saying its no longer viable because on crit food effects have a cooldown. Honestly viabilty is somewhat subjective to what the user considers “good enough”.
I wonder who ever came up with the idea to let the thief be able to avoid damage while stealthed makes no sense to me, why not make it so they cant dodge or evade ground target AoE’s like marks and stuff atm thiefs are always hidden and high dps tbh they dont even need armor lol
Is this a joke?
The thief takes ALL damage while stealthed.
Not from mobs or non aoe attacks. This is the only game that allows stealthers to be able to stealth during combat. It’s a bad mechanic.
yeah no. If a thief is stealthed and in range of and Ettin’s swing, he’ll be hit. If a thief is in range of another thief’s Dagger melees, he’ll be hit, provided the attacker isn’t targetting someone next to him.
Thieves are hit by AoEs, but not exclusively. They’re hit by AoE because most AoE is untargeted. By extension, they can be hit by any nontargeted attack, which includes almost every Melee and AoE attack in the game.
Also, some mobs have a ton of AoEs. See the Nightmare Vines or Malrona in TA or Fire Elementals. Or go fight some Karkas as a thief if you want an example of stealth versus channels.
Personally I find that P/D’s only as effective as how little condition removal the target has. I find that S/D gets caught in the crossfire of the D/D hate, a lot.
This thread is basically 3 people talking to each other…
kittening back and forwth without really suggesting anything.
For me, I personally feel that stealth is a problem but it only needs minor tweaking.
Mesmer –
Veil – Only affect 5 players max (inline with thief’s SF)
Mass stealth – No change since this is an elite.
Thief –
Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replace
How will these changes affect thieves gameplay in general?
Burst D/D – No change. They will still kill and be killed as fast as before.
Balance BS D/D – Slight nerf to init regen but not much. They can still CnD and restealth but you will see fewer of those.
S/D – Slight nerf in init regen. They can’t spam infil strike like before. More careful timing of skill use.
P/D – Med nerf to init regen thus toning down the amount of sneak attack.
D/P – Stealth via combo field with almost instant init regen got to go. This build will feel the nurf bat. This will end infinite stealth build.
What do you guys think?
I don’t use any init regens or talents that give init in my build or in that video.
You want to fix Stealth, you have to go to the source of the problem…CND..
Though i think you’re probably right about D/P though with the infinite stealth..If that wasn’t addressed you’d probably end up with most Stealthers switching to that build.
How about you don’t kitten Sword/Dagger over just to bring kittening Dagger/Dagger in line!?
Why don’t they just bring Dagger mainhand in line with Sword main hand and Pistol mainhand?
Dagger Mainhand
-High single target damage
-Spammable Leap Finisher which deals high damage to targets below 50%
-Very High burst damage out of stealth
-Also viable if you go the condition damage route on D/D
Sword Mainhand
-Only has a burst on S/P (S/P has no inherent access to stealth)
-Sweeps but deals less damage to single targets
-Both have control playstyle but S/D can only access its contol move from stealth (meaning ideally S/D stealth will last less then a second either inducing blind or daze)
-Has a 2 way teleport
Pistol Mainhand
-Only has burst on its non-stealth set
-Only has blind on its non-stealth set
-Only has access to decent condition damage through stealth
-Bodyshot is really weak
-Shadow Strike is a spacers skill but lacks synergy with CnD to Sneak Attack
-Requires CnD to be an effective condition set
This actually sounds abuseable when used properly. My S/D build would become able to daze lock, perma blind and be able to stack regen while being invulnerable to conditions.
D/D thieves could spam backstab rather then having to prepare for them.
Thieves in WvW could become the ultimate spies and scouts being able to hide anywhere. It wouldn’t matter if you killed the mesmer, the thief can just wait and revive.
Non-combative PvE would be crazy. Thieves could gather anything and do and non-combative skill challenge completely unopposed.
Oh this is a laugh. Before people were all, “get rid of of orange swords! They encourage zergs which ruin the game.” So Anet reduced the chances of them appearing.
Careful what you wish for.
@Korgov: You forgot one other con. The human eye can track motion better then it percieves anything else. So a translucent thief will likely be noticeable no matter how much you lower the opacity. At least if you keep it in the greater then 1% range. The problem with that is stealth offers no statistical buff. It plays solely on the fact that it is an illusion. So basically stealth would become a stance and thieves would lose the only defense they have besides dodging. (Some sets have blinds but not all and even less have daze.)
If you want to be more supported take III Shadow Protector and VI Cloaked in Shadow on a set with Cloak and Dagger. I recommend Sword/Dagger. Then you can spam blinds and grant allies Regen with Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge.
A question; Is it only me, or does ranger pets now follow you even though you are stealthed? Been playing only an hour, but had a fight 2v2 with a ranger against a thief and a warrior, the ranger put his pet initially on guard on the thief, and it followed the thief even though he/she stealthed, using all tricks to get away. Hell it even leaped after the poor guy when he used a teleport stunning him at trasmissions end. Looked a bit like Benny Hill show. Anyone else has any imput? Never seen this before though
Stealth no longer resets aggro table.. so the pet will find you when you destealth.. this includes all pve mobs.. its a BS change.
It was to fix the bug that caused mobs to de-aggro thieves by accident. Can you imagine how annoying it is when a champion de-aggros and starts it’s out of combat heal when you’re trying to kill it?
