Guild Wars 2

Cloud.7613:

The only people who are standing up for thiefs being so broken(maybe not due to class design, but by culling) are thieves themselves.

I don’t have a problem with thieves dps, their escape mechanism is powerful but it’s fine. Invisibility(as I said, due to the culling) is absolutely broken. You attack them for 6 seconds, they get out of invisibility, you see the projectiles, but they haven’t rendered yet, you finally see them, oh nice, fully healed, 6 seconds later, invis again, rinse and repeat. I’ll be honest, I have a thief alt and while playing it, I feel like I’m a skilled player, then like all other non-thief dedicated players realize, It’s the mechanism, not the player and I’m a scrub again. Y-eah no, I don’t need to l2p, my class isn’t broken though.

A lot of thieves defend their class because we keep getting suggested “fixes” and “nerfs” for our class from players who obviously know nothing about thieves and come up with the most ludicrous ideas of how to “fix” us.
Equivalent to suggesting things like “Ele’s shouldn’t be able to attunement swap in combat” or “Guardians shouldn’t have access to Protection, Aegis and Stability”

@Eduardo
You’ve got a typo there when you’re talking about Signet of Shadows. I think you meant to bring light of the fact Ele’s Signet of Air has all the effects of Signet of Shadows with a shorter cooldown and actually damaging.

Signet of Shadows:
Passive: Grants a 25% increase in movement speed.
Active: Blind foes near your target.
-Blind: 5 s
-Radius: 240
-Range: 1,200
Cooldown: 30 Sec
Skill Points: 6

Signet of Air:
Passive: Grants a 25% increase in movement speed.
Active: Blind your target and nearby foes.
-Blind: 5 s
-Damage: 122
-Radius: 240
-Range: 1,200
Cooldown: 20 Sec
Skill Points: 3

How organized were you? Thieves thrive on the confusion of their opponents, they’re at their best when their opponent is too beguiled to mount a proper counter. He maybe be hard to track but if you pull together and watch each other’s backs his threat drops significantly. As for weaknesses, theives are weak to CCs and are usually susceptible conditions, and they’re fragile if you manage to nail them down.

They’ll buff S/D and P/P, the whiners will be so enraged that they’ll leave and GW2 PvP will flourish into a realm of players who constantly search for creative ways to improve their skills instead of complain.

Hey a guy can hope.

Faranox.4217:

It’s frustrating that a Thief can Finish a downed player while Stealthed. Why do I even have downed attacks if I can’t see the guy killing me?

Why do you even have downed attacks when Eles can mist stomp?
Why do you even have downed attacks when Necros can blind stomp?
Why do you even have downed attacks when Warriors, Guardians and Mesmers can stability stomp?

I could go on but I don’t feel like digging up the list of safe stomps. Why complain about one of the few safe stomps that can be counted easily?

Seeing as Unload is the only skill unique to P/P, why not lower it’s initiative to cost to 4 or do something else to make it into viable weapon for Direct damage ranged thieves?

Mian.1945:

Akumu.7238:

Also, both Burning Oil and Cannon users should be protected from damage until it is destroyed. A zerg mass AoE completely shuts these down and make them useless.

This is a HUGE oversight in WvW and I can’t imagine why they did not do it. Would help defend vs zerg for a much longer time.

I agree with the oil pot, give them a booth or somethings. As for the cannons, considering how much of a dent they can make in a zerg once you get two or more, I think they’re fine.

EthanLightheart.9168:

so u have no chance of interrupting.

Unless just about any non-targeted launch, push, knockdown, blind or stun hits them. All of which are possibilities.

Brannoncyll.1978:

In WvW a small group of thieves can completely cut off supplies. Even large groups of defenders are no counter to this strategy – they simply burst down the yak and vanish again. This needs to be fixed. Soon.

Well to be fair, they need to be capable of something constructive for their server, and they’re rather lack luster at sieges.

Aveneo.2068:

Interacting with an object/chest should unstealth a stealthed Thief.

For example, me and my guildmate were fighting a champion in Orr. A Thief came running in (trailing a ton of mobs) went stealth and looted the chest (and left us to fight the extra mobs).

So next to the ability to troll other players and have a laugh, they can get free loot wherever there’s a chest. That last part is an exploit in my opinion and should be fixed as it is not intended to open chests that are guarded by powerful mobs and make off with the loot.

When you stealth and try to open a chest or something, your stealth should drop.

If he was using Shadow Refuge, I’d join him. The refuge is open to all.

Expansive.3716:

The people that are saying Ele is OP, is off their rocker

Ele is by far not OP. There are people out there who have been dedicated to the ele profession since the launch of GW2 and they have worked hard to become competitive.

You don’t simply press 7-8 buttons and get a kill. The ele is a more methodical profession.

I’ve seen this before in another game I’ve played (Lost Saga, if you’ve heard of it) where the character Hazama (the game has a lot of cameo characters) is probably the most complained about character in the game. He’s not easy for newbies to use but at max potential he’s seen as completely outclassing every other character in the game, and is generally hated for it.
My point is, complainers don’t care how much effort it takes your character to be godly strong, they just care that you stomped them and will do whatever they can to prove that it wasn’t a fair fight in hopes that the bar will be lowered for them.

Jaytee.9513:

Don’t know if this belongs in suggestions or here but here is a suggestion that may solve many burst damage issues. Build in Critical hit damage resistance as a secondary attribute for toughness. Its far to easy to stack crit damage with gear and stats but no feasible way to counter it. Toughness builds mitigate some damage but when you have additional 70% crit damage modifiers (stats and gear attributes) it creates insane amounts of burst. When combined with stealth as a defense it becomes the problems we are seeing now. Glass cannon builds shouldn’t be feasible IMHO unless its with group play.

Removal of stealth upon initiating an attack is another method to tone down the offensive capability of stealther classes making it more of a defensive mechanism though the first suggestion would probably solve more problems.

Another suggestion would be to place a drawback on stealth like frenzy for the warrior…..double incoming damage while in stealth.

As to the culling issue perhaps making shadow stepping more of a leap allowing a visual feedback can help remove the model re-rendering issue as well as providing a possible defense response.

Now look at stealth trait line…..So many bonuses attached to one skill for thieves.

Condition removal (trait)
Increased movement speed (trait)
increased initiative regain (trait)
100% crit hit chance (trait)
regeneration while in stealth (trait)
2 initiative gain when using a stealth skill (trait)
Gain Might 15s (trait)

Look at how many ways to get stealth……

Stealth for 2 sec upon steal (this one should be removed because its a gap closing/attack in one keystoke when combined with mug) trait

cloak and dagger -weapon skill
hide in shadow (heal skill)
blinding powder (which can stack stealth) -utility
shadow refuge (stack stealth)- utility
shadow trap -utility

No negatives for a stealth build all positives from what i see.

All in all diversity is what should make this game more enjoyable and class balance is key to that. A zerg of thieves is not what the devs was planning but soon it maybe all that exists in GW2 given the OP-ness of Stealth+High DPS+Mobilty as a combination.

I can’t see a zerg of thieves being effective anywhere short of non-walled targets in WvW. Can’t defend themselves and hold points at the same time in sPvP, and rather poor at sieging.

Also those traits you picked just shows what stealth can give thieves when traited for it, they also sacrifice their direct damage if they trait into most of those. The only ones that fall in line with glass cannons are the 100% crit, and ‘one’ of the condition removal, speed boost, or the 2 initiative regen.

In other words, glass cannons can have 2 stealth traits max.

If they aren’t invested heavily into Deadly Arts, they don’t do anywhere near the high damage people complain about, leaving the benefits of stealths to the more balanced condition builds, which can be hard counted by condition removal.

You also need to look at what thieves have for them in terms of survivability when they don’t have stealth.

The main thing about stealth that I think most don’t seem to notice is that stealth is a psuedo-cease fire. Thieves stop attacking to focus solely on catching a breather, only if the opponent is clever and understands the thief’s way of thinking, they can interrupt this short break, the opponent can also use this short break to prepare for the thief’s next move.

FourTwenty.4268:

Daecollo.9578:

Best Condition Removal. (your targets letting you CnD him over and over, a BIG mistake…)

I get so sick of people thinking CnD(and all of our abilities for that matter) are free and spammable forever.

CnD costs FIVE, count them, FIVE initiative. that’s half of our total initiative pool.

6 Initiative actually.

DJRiful.3749:

Actually Elementalists are the lowest HP and Def in the whole game. We trade off alot of firepower for defenses. What about you?

Ele’s and Thieves have the same base HP. And I wouldn’t be so quick to want thieves nerfed as an Ele. The way I see it. Eles are probably the next on the chopping block for QQ rage. Think about it, an endless amount of players complaining about your favourite class, no matter how you try to defend it intellectually it doesn’t matter. They rail and rail tirelessly on you, shouting insults at you, never even considering that they themselves are the reason your class pwns them.

Zatria.5783:

Dual.8953:

…most of them haven’t put in the time of effort to make a viable WvW build to switch to out of from their PvE gears. And it’s not surprising as it can take a lot of time and gold to make a secondary set.

I really believe it’s mostly the pain in the butt it is to recreate the builds as often as they are needed for the different things we do. Now, for the life of me, I really can’t understand how something was not only implemented at release, but still isn’t — as saving your builds for quick changes. I’m baffled at the lack of common sense some game developers have sometimes.

It seems like a deliberate design decision too when you consider that it costs a few silver to respec traits.

I think this factor is actually more overlooked then it should be. NPC’s and PC’s are completely different beasts and since players come into WvW off PvE, most of them haven’t put in the time of effort to make a viable WvW build to switch to out of from their PvE gears. And it’s not surprising as it can take a lot of time and gold to make a secondary set.

Predator.7321:

Raytek.6193:

Blinding Powder: 3 second stealth 40 second CD
Cloak and Dagger: 3 second stealth, 6 initiative cost, requires melee range
Hide in Shadows: 3 second stealth, 30 second CD
Shadow Refuge: 10 second stealth, 60 second CD, requires the thief to sit inside it for the full 5 second duration

Which is these is OP again?

Mutiply those numbers x2 for the culling and there’s real stealth numbers

Weren’t people saying the culling patch worked in sPvP/tPvP? Also it’s not a multiplication, it’s an addition if culling’s still an issue.

Renny.6571:

jan.9745:

Lol and the only one class can anoyed thief is mesmer but they nerf mesmer and i love this no one can match me yes yes yes thanks arena net for nerfing mesmer! I lov it! i feel the power!

Good luck portal bombing anything if Anet does incorporate this nerf.

Actually, stealth dropping on hit will do nothing to Portal bombs. Why? Because when they leave the portal, they aren’t stealthed, their character model just hasn’t loaded for you.
Now if they fully optimize culling? That will do something.

aydenunited.5729:

Giamonti.4186:

I don’t have a problem witht heir damage, hell they can revert the nerf on heartseeker, I wont care…Just please nerf the stealth. I’ts impossible to kill a thief with half a brain if they want to get away.

Their stealth skills are on wayyyy too short of a cooldown.

I can agree with this, only because it seems like latency issues allow some players to take advantage of stealth times.

And this would not affect PVE as much, so it wins for Anet as well, who is trying to keep the two in harmony without having to separate too much.

Thief damage isn’t nearly as bad as glitchy stealth problems + the burst.

Depends how much. Stealth is how I don’t die in Orre. Especially with those Risen Putrifiers pulling me all over the place.

RedOwl.7496:

If I had to pay to play the game I would have already canceled my subscription. And unless something is done soon about thieves I will soon quit playing. The main reason I play GW2 is because ofWvW. IMO, thieves are ruining WvW.

The ones who keep defending the class and say they are fine are delusional. Do you really think there would be so many threads complaining about them if they were fine? How many have been closed that you can’t see at the moment? Bet a lot more would be if it wasn’t for Christmas and a lot of mods are probably on vacation.

Whether the fix is as simple as fixing culling I do not know. But if culling can’t be fixed, and it completely takes a redesign of the class to fix them until they can fix culling….well then that is what they need to do.

DAOC stealth was basically permanent. But any damage would pop you out of stealth. If you had a DOT on you, you couldn’t restealth. Archer classes could spec with realm ranks to detect stealthers which could help a lot with countering them. You moved very slow while stealthed which made it challenging to get in position to attack. Assassin classes had to get right next to players to use positionals to attack and this often allowed you to be seen a split second before you could attack. None of this hit a button to transport you 600, 1220 units or whatever. It took a lot more skill basically than GW2 thieves IMO except for the permanent stealth.

Make it so any damage to them pops them out of stealth. If they have a condition on them, they can’t restealth. Make most it so they move like 2/3 normal speed while stealthed. They have to be within 20 units to use any attack from stealth. Give a chance to see stealther if close enough so they small window to attack or move. Allow rangers to spec to detect them stealthed. Maybe a pet ability. Or make a pet they can charm that excels at hunting them. Reduce burst damage overall but especially against opponents who spec high in toughness. All kinds of thing they COULD do since it seems they will never fix the culling problem. If they could, they already would have.

How are sin’s not completely useless fodder in DAOC then? Or is the game fairly limited on AoEs?

I can think of another contributing factor. GW2 has no fees, so players don’t feel obligated to play to get their money’s worth. For better or worse, sub MMOs maintain thier populations on a balance of the player’s love for their character and desire not to waste the money they spent on the game.
Gw2 on the other hand doesn’t have this factor, with a few exceptions mostly players specifically play because they want to, most players don’t play because they don’t want to, uninfluenced by the tug of thier pocket book.

Not sure how big of a change this makes, but it is a factor for some.

The best uses for thief in large group fights are thier shared stealths, combo fields, blast and whirl finishers, Caltrops and Scorpion Wire. So stealth res/stomp, setting up stealth bombs, mass blinds and the ability to force enemies to over extend.

mickers.2715:

Columba.9730:

rancidstick.2704:

You can’t kill a good thief in this game.

Largely true unless you have a fg aoeing and ccing in every direction. WIth culling they can have perma stealth, the highest dps in the game and the highest mobility. The culling must be fixed so that thieves actually need to give up something to be perma stealthed.

Ele has much better mobility, perma swiftness + 2 charge attacks and a teleport.

and better stamina recovery.

Catisa.6507:

Azure Prower.8701:

Just wait until you get a group of 10 mesmers. Instant zerg. Have fun trying to find the real ones in stealth.

once you find the real mesmer ctrl + t and you’ll always know which is real and which is clone, the target will stay on the real one.

10 mesmer’s out of 40 figures. Plus they may have decoy. Also, 30 clone shatter spike. Sounds insane.

Korgov.7645:

Just a thought: What if stealth would not grant invisibility? Thief would only turn transcluent, be unattackable by direct attacks and have stealth specific skills available to them.

Sounds scary honestly. Invul spamming bursters, they’d become what people accuse them of being.

Columba.9730:

Jeda.5209:

Being able to stealth and dodge is the thieves survivability. Without it they are completely useless. They dont have the health or toughness to survive. Considering anybody can dot/ aoe/ direct damage that would take stealth completely out of the game.

they aren’t completely useless without it. secondly, aoe rarely hits stealthed thieves.

They’d be pretty much forced to only fight single targets. You think a thief would last long in Orre without stealth? Or in a zerg vs zerg?

Columba.9730:

EvilSardine.9635:

This culling issue has nothing to do with how good your machine is. Everyone please stop saying this.

Thanks.

agreed. besides i have 16 gb ram an nvidia 670 card. still an issue.

Then how come culling effects some more then others vs thieves? Or is it that when they say “perma-stealth” they’re blowing it out of perportion?

Columba.9730:

Dual.8953:

Columba.9730:

Morningstar.6208:

Thieves are really balanced. Level 80 thief with full gear will destroy any lowbies or low geared people due to lack of toughness. Pretty much all classes do it only difference is thieves do it really fast. When you go lvl 80 full gear you can kick those thieves kitten Only thing for balance is engineers should be buffed a bit in certain points.

Inaccurate when you can never see them due to culling.

Except the countless ones you do see. Least I’ve seen them fine. I’ve seen them fine during a siege on our inner garrison. But then I’ve got a powerful machine. It’s getting really old Columba. And your excessive use to absolutes does your credibility no favours.

So everyone else is lying too? The culling bug gives thieves enormous, unintended advantages. It must be fixed.

The fact that I don’t have a problem with their culling means that “always” and “never” are not true. Honestly I’m thinking culling’s not 100% a server side problem. Though you may need a more powerful rig for it not to be (mine’s an Asus G75V with 16 Gigs of RAM). When you look at it that way it’d explain why culling’s not relatively easy to fix, bug fixing is hard, and rewriting a program so it runs it probably even harder.

sachiel.8051:

Direct, aoe or dot’d, being damaged should take anybody out of stealth.

That’s like demanding protection to end on damage, can you imagine what that would do to Eles and Guardians if they nerfed protection in that way?

Columba.9730:

Morningstar.6208:

Thieves are really balanced. Level 80 thief with full gear will destroy any lowbies or low geared people due to lack of toughness. Pretty much all classes do it only difference is thieves do it really fast. When you go lvl 80 full gear you can kick those thieves kitten Only thing for balance is engineers should be buffed a bit in certain points.

Inaccurate when you can never see them due to culling.

Except the countless ones you do see. Least I’ve seen them fine. I’ve seen them fine during a siege on our inner garrison. But then I’ve got a powerful machine. It’s getting really old Columba. And your excessive use to absolutes does your credibility no favours.

Avigrus.2871:

papacooldown.9482:

A coordinated group of 10 anything will ‘decimate’ smaller groups walking by. Whining on the forums about this just makes you look foolish.

My point being, the class is so overpowered you now have a situation where this is happening.

I wasn’t complaining about the decimation part.

Foolish? I think not.

When you get a 10 gankers camping a spot, it doesn’t matter what they are, they’re going to gank whoever they can. And the idea of having a theme to your group isn’t that odd either. For instance, one of my classmates has a Mesmer and he goes around WvW with a large group of other Mesmers doing whatever random stunt that comes to mind, like mass shatter salvos.
The other day I was caught by a smaller group of Warriors ganking.
Some players just like to do things like this. In any case, if they aren’t taking the keep, then they’re just trying to be nuisance for the sake of it and are not really a major threat, especially if they aren’t moving. Find an alternate route, and find something useful to do.
@Avigrus: There are plenty or rocks, hills and trees to hide behind that let you take advantage of the 3rd person perspective.

Sundog.9380:

Thieves replying with crap like ‘just cast AOEs’ make me laugh.

Earlier today I get hit for like 6.5K steal, then 6.5K cloak and dagger, then 10K backstab. I have a split second where I could finally see the thieve and able to cast ONE spell before I died to next hit. This is on a necro with a lot of toughness and vitality. When was I supposed to be able to cast AOE’s to kill him?

The instant you notice something is amiss, dodgeroll/stunbreak if basiklisk venom, then cast an aoe around yourself and heal up and start looking around. In any case, if you’re going around WvW, you should be looking around constantly. Especially when soloing, because anything can get the drop on you if they take you from behind. (Other days a couple warriors spiked me from behind, my guard was down because apparently had hid in the outer area of our keep after we took it.)

Ekove.4586:

Svarty.8019:

Double dagger elementalist is the new thief.

See the funny part is people complain about DD ele’s when DD ele’s don’t come close to thieves damage and still have less mobility…. And of course no stealth.

Actually I gotta correct you there. D/D Eles have access to perma swiftness (33% base speed buff as opposed to thieves’ 25%, oh and Ele have a signet that like an improved version of the signet that thieves use for the 25% boost, see Signet of Air and Signet of Shadows), ride the lightning, I’m pretty sure they trait into endurance recovery so they can maximize the use of evasive arcana. On top of that Eles have a load of auras, AoE’s and combo fields giving them an overall most sustained dps, over multiple targets as opposed to thieves who blow everything they’ve got in the first strike on a single target.

Thief like Mesmer revolves around mind games. A lot of players don’t understand or appreciate mind games, writing anything off anything that isn’t obvious and straight forward as cheap. Thieves confound them, and it’s frustrating for them to face things they don’t understand.
A lot of them also have rather inflated egos that are easy to bruise. But that’s almost a given in PvP.

From what I’ve seen some siege strikes do, upgrading is a must if you actually want to keep what you take. Having an upgraded Keep and Garrison with a warp point is invaluable in the borderlands. Of course, one should always be mindful of how well they can defend what’s being upgraded.

I notice a lot of these people that oppose downed state use 1vMany scenarios. Of course the larger group will use it better then you in those situation. Downed state doesn’t become useful until you have an ally.
And what meaningful task are you performing alone? Killing sentries and dolyaks? Sure there’s scouting, but getting ganked is an occupational hazard for a scout.
Leave your green tunic and master sword at the door, because in WvW, you’re not the hero, you’re a soldier.

In my experience you have to be out of combat mode in order to log off without penalties. The trick of it is it’s not always easy to do so, sometimes you’ve gotta got quite a distance for it to work.

Daays.4317:

bettadenu.5483:

I thought it was pretty good logic, ofcourse it works both ways i’m just making a point and you’re quoting it just to make a post.

When you represent a team in higher end PvP, you should be limited to change WHILE IN A MATCH.

Different weapon sets provide different kind of playstyles, that’s why you should think of what you pick beforehand and make a strategy using those weapons.
To me this entire thread comes off as ‘’I can’t change my stats anymore during a match so I can get the upperhand rather than tactically think on a counter’’

Once again, you can’t swap to gain the upper hand if the other team can swap as well.

Please, try and understand this.

Not in combat but you can before hand just by paying attention to whatever intel you can get on the other team. And sure they do it too, but if they want to counter your swap, they’re going to need to predict what you’re swapping to and when you’re swapping.
Locking people into builds gives them clear limits, and when they reach those limitations, they can either roll over and die or get creative with whatever resources are around. I think it’s more interesting finding a new way to use what you do have, then it is to find some way duck out and switch to something optimal, and the person who figure out the new tactic will be more skill with their build as a result.

Roezz.5460:

Oozo.7856:

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

Actually if you have a fight where you are winning 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person who was tagging along rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.

Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.

If you’re leaving so many downed enemies around that rally makes a difference then you’re being sloppy. When you down them, make sure you have at least someone to finish the job.

I don’t hate zergs, but that’s probably because I love working with Siege weapons, particularly defensively. It’s fun finding places to set up siege in a way that maximizes defense and effectiveness and tactics like trebbing Dreadfall Bay from Blueveil and Garrison.

I find going low level in WvW for if you want a very particular kind of challenge. That is the challenge of surviving in a world were you’re far from the strongest player around. Reminds me of RFO when I first got my MAU and could farm for insane profit, but only in areas that a couple max level Cora could some in a oneshot me while troll rolling every lowbie in the general area. May not be for everyone, but I find it thrilling. In any case, it’s not like you have 0% chance of doing anything as a lowbie in WvW.

JaNordy.6149:

People that cant win or live without greater numbers love downed state. Everyone else hates it.

The people who love downed state know how to work with it. In a battle, they watch the battle lines carefully, know that kills are most effective on over extenders. When they down someone, they cover each other to stomp.
It has little baring on who’s the larger force. In fact, large forces could Roflstomp everything with greater effectiveness without it there. This is coming from a guy who usually gets on late, and is on a server that doesn’t have a developed night crew, yet faces servers that have them. So yeah, I face larger forces a lot, and our server still manages to hold its own.

@Danto: So a bunch of teams will be running a certain kind of comp. whats to stop players from observing this, and building a new comp to counter that comp? And for that process to happen again and again into a loop. And isn’t what I just illustrated how a metagame works?
Also with Anet tweaking around all the time, certain skills are bound to be nerfed or buffed at some point, also skills that are perhaps too useful will stand out much more.
Anyways, build is hardly the only factor that decides a match, competence, teamwork and environment also play factors, and it’s also possible that someone clever might see major drawback in how most teams play the game (for example, 3 bunkers, 2 roamers) and find a comp that can undermind that strategy.

Tripp.9862:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to jump in and say that I’m reading this thread and taking it all in. Keep it civil (don’t get yourselves banned! ) and let those ideas flow.

I know some of you are upset with the change, but really, this is something we were planning for a while. WE MAY NOT LOCK DOWN utilities down the road, so that you can still have some adjustment when out of combat, but at the same time, we do not think weapon swapping mid-match is good for the overall health of the game. Just wanted to remind you we are here, and I am watching the forums, and your ideas are being heard.

Keep it constructive (and really, overall you guys are doing a FANTASTIC JOB OF THIS!), and carry on!

I’m not sure I understand what’s going on here. I’m just an average player, who probably dies more than he kills others in sPVP.

It’s been my understanding for quite some time now, that the whole point of GW2 combat system was the weapon swapping, or in the case of elementalists swapping between attunements. To give it a more involved and challenging aspect.

If what I’m reading in this thread is true, now I’ll either have to pick my shield/mace or greatsword before a match on my guardian and be stuck with it? So the majority of the time I’ll just be autohitting people? That’s really disappointing and quite frankly incredibly boring.

Being able to switch to mace/shield when my dps greatsword abilities are on cooldown for the heal symbol and giving allies some protection is now not possible?
If so, then I guess my guardian is now going to be straight up dps.

It’s not the ` button swaps, it’s that they disabled the ability to edit your equipment loadout and utility during a game.

Onur.5346:

I seriously dislike downed state in pvp period.

Reasons:
1- it’s nearly impossible to 1v3+ – I would really love to test my skills going up against 5-10 and killing all – now that’s skill.. and this game just doesn’t allow that.

2- In an outnumbered zerg vs double # zerg = double # will always win for obvious reasons – LET ME REZ YoU

It’s just not like any other game in this game, it’s just so annoying not to be able to pick on a group of 5 alone, very ! Aside from 1v1, it’s definitely making the game a non-skill teller – also making this game a cookie-cutter… for below/average players…

/seen lots of WvW vids of classes soloing large groups.
Downed doesn’t give any bigger advantage to the bigger team then they already have. It more rewards players who know how to manage it. Killing an enemy within their own lines doesn’t count for much, but if you make them over extend, that when your kills start to make a difference. In WvW, it’s not numbers that win the day, it’s whoever pushes the other back that is the victor, and it’s completely do able with smaller force if the force aims for tactical advantages.

frostflare.6390:

You know, I think thieves are Kitten op as kitten. Yes…I do. They are all out of whack with un-godly damage and cna surive even with it. They just have the tools available to them. As an ele, with heavy Toughness and Vit, and still go down like a rock against and theif. And I condiser myself a good player. I held a tower against 10 invaders(who had siege) until reinforcements arrived. i was able to buy some decent time and keep the foes off the tower long enough for someone to mas a group to help the tower. I also won’t say im the best, I am not by any means. I am if anything average. I use a staff even.

I know im easy pickings for a Thief. Heres what I don’t get though. Why is that a thief can get blasted with AOE…but never get revealed. Right there should be the fix to this major problem. If the Theif is useing the stealth the get away..Hes gonna have to be smart. He get’s hit one time with a blast of fire and bam his 5 seconds of stealth is gone like that.

Or if you don’t wnat that. We should be able to see the “Numbers” of damage as we hit the thing in stealth. If he runs through a lava font, I want to see the numbers tick above his head. Even if he doest go out of stealth, that should give me some “indicator” of where he is.

Also that whole belife of “Just aoe the entire place, it will die eventualy” is a Kitten lie. Anyplayer with a scrap of grey-matter can avoid aoe. I mean its a big red Target. Also, our biggest damging aoe, and the only one that really has a chance against the theif is Meteor shower(since it has a large area and hits many targets)….Yet it requires us to float in the air whilst they kill us.

I think stealth should stay. Theives need some sort of defenisive menouver. Despite there high evasion, they also need stealth. I would be kitten mad if someone got rid of my mist form for example. But I think it’s a simple fix of “If they get it it reveals them, or it shows the damage tick above them”….Both of which gives a good player an Idea of where the theif is, and puts some fear back into theives. Also good theives still will be able to avoid the aoe..but at least it weeds out the strong from the weak.

I’d rather the damage ticks then a full reveal. If you’ve played any high level PvE, you know how insane the amount of AoEs in an area can get, and I doubt one would complain about thieves stealthing there. (I mean I know shelks can be annoying but you don’t see forumers waving pitchforks at them)

I think the reason they can’t fix the CCs that render you airborne is because you can’t skill in the air, and judging by the nature of teleports, I gather you can’t air skill because you’d be able to teleport in mid air and do things like blink anywhere. (even into keeps)

Raideen.5973:

Dual.8953:

rootnode.9546:

Setima.8741:

Anet gives you EVERY skill you need to kill a Thief. They give you heals, they give you stun breakers, they give you invincible rolls and they give you stuns, immunities, and immobilizes. Your troubles start when you stand there letting the Thief control the fight. You have 3 seconds where that Thief can’t stealth, he can’t do anything but take damage from you. If they’re glass cannon, they will DIE in those 3 seconds IF you take your head from out of your azz and lock them down.

Hm, if I’m not aiming for glass cannon, I need to exchange some damage for survivability. So the 3 seconds are NOT enough to kill the thief. Yeah, right. In the 3 seconds where he can’t stealth, he still has dodge rolls and other skills to survive. And if the fight gets critical for the thief, he just stealths and runs away.
“Ooooh, but we need stealting. We need to get out of fights to survive.” Ever considered that it’s the same for other classes? Take an engineer, or a ranger. If it gets critical, they too want to get out of combat, but they can’t. Where is the problem if revealed gets 1 or 2 more seconds so that you actually have to face off the enemy you started fighting with?

The main problem is: if any class goes glass cannon, it’s trading survivability for power. Except….thieves. Can escape whenever they want to. 1 or 2 seconds on revealed…that’s not THAT harsh. You can manage that. Like many thief players are always putting off our concerns: l2p.

Here’s the trick of it. Thieves run out of defensive options that are not stealth faster the other classes, they’re in the same HP tier as Ele and Guardian, but they don’t have all the defensive boons they have, they can dodge 2-3 times, maybe shadowstep once if they take it and then they’re done, maybe roll for initiative and retreat if they take it, then they’re done, completely out of defenses, and unable to run from those pursuing them and will go down if someone so much as sneezes in their general direction.

And yet players who play thieves have the confidence to rush into a mob stealthed, 1 shot someone and flee. Why? Because they know through many encounters that they CAN and WILL get away. Its a joke man…and anyone who defends thieves ATM just likes easy mode.

With a full tough/vit build and exotic tough/vit armor, I should not get 2 shot….and it happens nightly. 28k health gone and I never even see them.

Its BROKEN…and I encourage everyone who plays this game and who is sick of thieves in wvwvw to stop playing… Arena Net needs to remove the class or fix it!

You missed the point of the example. Yes with stealth the cause hot dog it into the middle of a large fight with stealth, without stealth, they can’t even get close to the fight cause they’ll got down faster then a neutral moa bird caught in the crossfire.

rootnode.9546:

Setima.8741:

Anet gives you EVERY skill you need to kill a Thief. They give you heals, they give you stun breakers, they give you invincible rolls and they give you stuns, immunities, and immobilizes. Your troubles start when you stand there letting the Thief control the fight. You have 3 seconds where that Thief can’t stealth, he can’t do anything but take damage from you. If they’re glass cannon, they will DIE in those 3 seconds IF you take your head from out of your azz and lock them down.

Hm, if I’m not aiming for glass cannon, I need to exchange some damage for survivability. So the 3 seconds are NOT enough to kill the thief. Yeah, right. In the 3 seconds where he can’t stealth, he still has dodge rolls and other skills to survive. And if the fight gets critical for the thief, he just stealths and runs away.
“Ooooh, but we need stealting. We need to get out of fights to survive.” Ever considered that it’s the same for other classes? Take an engineer, or a ranger. If it gets critical, they too want to get out of combat, but they can’t. Where is the problem if revealed gets 1 or 2 more seconds so that you actually have to face off the enemy you started fighting with?

The main problem is: if any class goes glass cannon, it’s trading survivability for power. Except….thieves. Can escape whenever they want to. 1 or 2 seconds on revealed…that’s not THAT harsh. You can manage that. Like many thief players are always putting off our concerns: l2p.

Here’s the trick of it. Thieves run out of defensive options that are not stealth faster the other classes, they’re in the same HP tier as Ele and Guardian, but they don’t have all the defensive boons they have, they can dodge 2-3 times, maybe shadowstep once if they take it and then they’re done, maybe roll for initiative and retreat if they take it, then they’re done, completely out of defenses, and unable to run from those pursuing them and will go down if someone so much as sneezes in their general direction.

Felme.9638:

I normally don’t post much on the forums but this change warrants it.

Worst change to date. Never mind utilities and traits, everyone relies on weapon swapping in PvE, WvW, Dungeoning, sPvP, every facet of the game, why would decide to just disable it for tPvP?

Multiple developers have stated on multiple occasions the desire to create a pathway for new players to get into the tPvP scene. Why would you just now decide to go and break the golden rule of Design Anything 101; consistency?

This change hurts casuals more than it does anyone else. Simply put, fewer weapon sets = less build diversity = less opportunity = less intricacy.

My eyes are bleeding from all the “Pro vs Casual” and “Less is More” BS in this thread. It doesn’t matter whether you play 8 hours a day or 8 hours a week, less is less and more is more. It’s that simple, they’re mutually exclusive by definition. If you remove the ability to swap weapons, players will either A. Design their builds around weapons that give swiftness. B. Forgo their maximum amount of mobility for the utility provided by a different weapon set. Ultimately everyone is going to be designing tPvP builds for 2 weapon sets as opposed 3, 4, or however many they were using before. Regardless of how much play time you put in weapon-locking hurts everyone equally.

The weapons in GW2 are designed to serve different functions and thus designed to be interchangeable. At least half the classes in the game have a weapon whose only useful function is a swiftness buff. It means more time is spent running from point A to point B which is not fun for the player or a spectator. The more time you have to spend setting up a strategic attack the less strategy you get in a timed match. The more one sided the math becomes.

I sincerely hope Anet refrains from keeping this terrible, terrible change in game.

Your math is way off. Anet changed the equation from 33C33 which equals One, to 7C2+3C1+3C1+20C3 which equals 1167. (using Thieves’ available skill set for example)

How does this work? Originally, everyone had access to every skill in there repertoire, meaning the thought that there were tons of builds was an illusion, there were 8 builds and they differentiated themselves by how people changed up their builds on the fly.