the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.
Playing thief takes more skill then playing LoL
if lol took no skill it wouldnt be one of the most popular pvp games
Sprawl, don’t generalize all Thief players as BS burst thieves.
It just shows ignorance on your side of the arguement.
Currently Glass cannon BS thieves are the most complained about class in 8v8 for thier ability to front load 10k-20k to anyone unprepared for them. As for their other builds, well the latest patch seems to have hit their more balanced builds pretty hard.
I agree that probably CnD nerf wasn’t the best thing to do. Nerfing Mug would be way better, but anyway the backstab combo damage was lowered and that’s what matters.
How would nerfing Mug fix it? Mug does the least damage in combo so it’s need a large damage nerf to make a noticable dent (talking 75% nerf) and it’d need something like 120 cooldown at least to have any effect on how the BS combo is used. Only think I can think of is making Mug agument steal so that it will add a cast timer to it.
Anyone else use this? I’ve been finding it great in WvW. I can use it to force enemies to overextend in ZergvZergs, save teammates from stomps, catch runners, so all in all it can be pretty fun.
Though there are some imbalances in the game so desparity does exist, it’s good to keep in mind classes in the game are capable of a wide variety of build types, and their proficiency in those roles vary from class to class, so it’s very possible to make an underperforming build, especially in HotM where builds are tested to their limits much more then any other mode in the game.
So to summerize, the classes in GW2 aren’t fully balanced yet, but most of them have a few builds that are more effective then others.
this is also possible on land for quite a bit a thief spamming deathblossom roll for initiative and withdraw can keep up a pretty hefty time on evade on him.
Just to clearify, though Withdraw is on a 15 second cooldown, it requires the Grandmaster Trait: Hastened Replenishment, to be able to recover initiative. And Roll for Initiative’s on a 60 sec cooldown.
As for Spear. Yeah, 3 evasion/block skills. It’s certainly hard to hit, though it find Ninetails Strike and Flanking strike more cost effective then Shadow Assault. That and the rooted channel off Shadow Assault feels a bit weird. Kind of like Blurred Frenzy, but underwater.
I think the 5v5 HotJoin was meant to address the whole TPvP thing solo join thing. Take it or leave it, at least it’s free.
The did also address culling which, just didn’t put it in this notes. Also the CnD/Mug/BS combo is now nerfed down to 87% of it’s former self. It seems their more eroding BS at it’s base rather then straight up nerfing it, considering AS was nerfed last time. Not sure about Guardian but they did get the Block Bug and I think I heard a guardian complaining about one of their trait that bunkers use to heal themselves has taken a hit.
Where are you getting 87% from?
It’s a rather rough estimate but I placed CnD at 100 and removed the 33%, rated the average mug as 50 and the average BS as 120 in relation to CnD. Then went, (67+50+120)/(100+50+120). So pretty much based those values around the damage I’ve seen in all those BS combo death breakdowns people posted. I usually saw CnD in the 8000s, mug in the 4000-5000s and BS in the 9000-11000s. So it’s prabably off by a bit, but when the second biggest hit in a 3 hit combo is nerfed to 67%, it does make an impact on the overall combo.
You’re rating CND damage as 83% of BS?
By those calculations, CnD accounted for about 37% of the original combo, now it accounts for about 27% of the total damage.
To put things in perspective the ratio was, 37-18.5-44.4, now it’s 27-21.4-51.5
Of course one should consider that these are all estimates, though it does still detail that overall, the BS combo is weaker then it was overall.
I think the 5v5 HotJoin was meant to address the whole TPvP thing solo join thing. Take it or leave it, at least it’s free.
The did also address culling which, just didn’t put it in this notes. Also the CnD/Mug/BS combo is now nerfed down to 87% of it’s former self. It seems their more eroding BS at it’s base rather then straight up nerfing it, considering AS was nerfed last time. Not sure about Guardian but they did get the Block Bug and I think I heard a guardian complaining about one of their trait that bunkers use to heal themselves has taken a hit.
Where are you getting 87% from?
It’s a rather rough estimate but I placed CnD at 100 and removed the 33%, rated the average mug as 50 and the average BS as 120 in relation to CnD. Then went, (67+50+120)/(100+50+120). So pretty much based those values around the damage I’ve seen in all those BS combo death breakdowns people posted. I usually saw CnD in the 8000s, mug in the 4000-5000s and BS in the 9000-11000s. So it’s prabably off by a bit, but when the second biggest hit in a 3 hit combo is nerfed to 67%, it does make an impact on the overall combo.
Okay I calculated all the combinations for Thief minus possible stat points. 1.8029 × 10^15 varients.
Big, meaningless numbers are still big and meaningless.
Now that there is a cop out answer. There are certainly more builds in that mass then players have discovered. In truth, thief probably is the low end of combinations only sporting only 5 main hand and 2 off hand weapons.
Please do explain to me what all these viable specs are for my Ele. Clearly I must just be doing something wrong by wanting to survive for more than two hits.
Find them yourself. It’s humanly impossible to try them all.
It’s not a cop out answer. You can say there are 2 billion builds but the truth is that players can quickly identify what does and does not work. In your number of builds there are builds using pistol traits that aren’t using pistols, venom traits and they havn’t slotted any venoms, trap traits with no traps, etc.
If you rule out skills that are largely considered UP(like thief traps), traits dealing with those skills, and traits that do not impact a build at all(pistol traits on a DD/SB build); the total number of builds per class is much smaller. Now you can spend time coming up with an algorithm to do the actual math, but that is a waste of time because the human brain already does it when people are speccing.
Quickly identify? ROFL
It took Ele’s two months to discover they could Bunker.
I tire or your narrow mindedness. I bid thee Adieu.
I think the 5v5 HotJoin was meant to address the whole TPvP thing solo join thing. Take it or leave it, at least it’s free.
The did also address culling which, just didn’t put it in this notes. Also the CnD/Mug/BS combo is now nerfed down to 87% of it’s former self. It seems their more eroding BS at it’s base rather then straight up nerfing it, considering AS was nerfed last time. Not sure about Guardian but they did get the Block Bug and I think I heard a guardian complaining about one of their trait that bunkers use to heal themselves has taken a hit.
Okay I calculated all the combinations for Thief minus possible stat points. 1.8029 × 10^15 varients.
Big, meaningless numbers are still big and meaningless.
Now that there is a cop out answer. There are certainly more builds in that mass then players have discovered. In truth, thief probably is the low end of combinations only sporting only 5 main hand and 2 off hand weapons.
Please do explain to me what all these viable specs are for my Ele. Clearly I must just be doing something wrong by wanting to survive for more than two hits.
Find them yourself. It’s humanly impossible to try them all.
Have we as a community really mastered the game exploring every build and style in 3 and a half months?
Yes.
Dude, there’s not really that many traits, skills or weapons. Seriously. Combine them all together and it’s barely more than what most MMO’s have as an ability list for one class.
Thief alone has about 6253 total combinations of skills, weapons and traits. Not factoring equipment stats, runes, and the multitudes of different ways a player handle given situations. If you think 6253 is small, consider this. All the rune combinations and upgrade combinations would be multiplied with the 6253, boosting the possible combinations to an insane degree.
Only viable build for Thieves is GC Backstab and maybe condition damage. They nerfed everything that shouldn’t have been nerfed (except maybe DD, but 50%, that’s way over the top). Backstab burst wasn’t even touched.
Really disappointed in you ANet.
Except the BS combo was nerfed. The second biggest hit in the combo is now at 67% of it’s original damage. So overall it’s around 87% as strong as it’s former self. And “only viable build” you say. Have we as a community really mastered the game exploring every build and style in 3 and a half months? Really? I took use about two months to discover Ele could be anything but weak and glassy.
Two’s fine. Get too many and it’ll dull thier effectiveness at decission making. On that note, I think players, especially forum players need to realize, we have a very narrow view of the game’s balance. We don’t have access to the big picture. What’s OP could just be that we’re not seeing the counter to it. Skills we consider useless could be amazing and we’re just not seeing it. This game is new yet we talk like we’ve been playing for years. I think we need to step back and start re-assess why we value what we value and why we play the way we play.
The holy trinity IS gone, it is your mindset that needs to change IMO.
I agree with this.
The metagame is bunkers and burst because you let it consist of such. If people started running more anti meta builds in tournaments you would see a shift. Since people tend to stick with what works and not experiment, you just see the same builds being run, even when you could something else. I’m reminded of my time spent playing MTG were you have the top 3-5 decks to beat that make up the main meta, and then a few anti-meta builds that work because the people who made them really know what they are doing.
You can seriously run control and mess up both bunkers and burst builds, cause you prevent them from accomplishing much as long as you’re on top of your crap. The reason control builds aren’t popular is cause they are harder to play and require more player thought than exploding on someone for huge damage or bunkering.
That’s not to say there aren’t problems, such as some burst builds being way to explosive, and neigh-unkillable bunkers. But until some big names put up some vids on you-tube to show people the next new build people will be slow to change.
Yeah I agree too. A lot of people don’t seem to get that, you are the one that defines your own role in this game.
We need more players who stubbornly want to go against the grain and forge their own play style. Sure some tweaks from Anet could make it easier to branch out but only the players can change their play styles. And yes experimenting with untested builds in a competitive environment is hard, but once you find a style you can be proud of, you won’t only be winning, you’ll be winning with style.
The game is designed to have high risk/high reward builds available. GW1 was also like this. Millisecond reaction times were required, particularly of monks. This is not your typical mmo pvp combat. It’s true quickness like we have now did not exist in gw1, however its playstyle did exist, not only at the team level but also at individual.
Necro/ele don’t have high reward specs sorry.
i guess that depends on your version of high rewards both necros and eles have strong bunker specs that can be used to change the tide of the fight. Also necros are one of the strongest buff stripping /condition specs in the game, condition removal is useless against a good one. necros also are one of the few classes that can where a shamans amulet and still have 20k hp.
elementalists are only slightly below engineers in terms of CC, they are strong in regards to team support and can drastically negate alot of damage. they are probably the closest thing in the game to a true healing class and does that job extremely well.
as far as damage in the form of burst, if that is what you mean by high reward then perhaps you should try mesmer or thief or even warrior if that is what you are looking for.
in regards to the quickness discussion. quickness is truly powerful and while not all classes have it at least one class in particular actually needs it for effective on demand burst: the ranger. with all of the constant pet AI quirks, the pre release nerf to ranger weapon damage, and all around poor design of weapons skills. this class is mediocre at everything and the only thing that allows a spec outside of conditions/traps build is quickness. while i agree that quickness is over powered and dreadfully out of hand in classes like the thief which can spam any ability they want regardless of the damage done or even the warrior somewhat, removing quickness is only possible if the ranger gets some really really good buffs on the 15th. most of us in the ranger community are excited for the changes, however most arent thinking that this is going to be all of the changes we need.
while i see pistol whip or death blossom quickness being ridiculous, quickness for the most part is a well balanced ability. personally i believe most people have learned that warriors with 100blades spec is a very niche build, and is probably the only build new players are arguing about in regards to warriorquickness.
my solution remove the initiative system so that thieves wont be able to abuse quickness and instantly spam 4 pistolwhips in a row or whatever high damage attack they want. At the same time offer other classes the ability to use quickness as a utility, so they can use or not use it as they see fit.
One does not simply remove the initiative system. If they did that it’d kitten all of Theif’s weapons leaving only builds with few inputs that maximize (like the BS combo) would remain useable as things stand. It would also be a tremendous hit to their utility. Besides last I checked, you can only get off 2 hasted Pistol Whips. And after the third (normal) Pistol Whip, the thief will be out off Initiative and Endurance. Plus if someone pops a stun break, the combo is completely shot.
They got rid of the trinity in the way that in the games that used that system, practically all the survivability depended on the healer. In GW1, as a Sin, the Monks were always my prime target. Kill the healer and the enemy party crumbles in short order. Also there was the endless waiting for a healer, and all the rage at the healers who weren’t skilled.
Now that I think about it, if healers were in GW2, glass cannon burst Thieves out be an absolute requirement in any team. They’re role would be to kill the healer so the Thief’s team could steamroll the enemy.
I think Dee Jay’s suggestions are good ones, but I would like to see them in addition to a backstab nerf.
In my opinion, many aspects of the thief are broken. It can stealth too much, do too much DPS and evade too readily. All of those things need to be toned down so that thieves are more killable and less lethal. If in the first instance the thief class gets over-nerfed, I’d say that’s better than under-nerfed. They’ve been OP since launch, so spending some time under powered would not be out of turn.
This may sound harsh, but for every good thief, or person who just likes playing thiefy type characters, there are half a dozen people who have rolled into the class just for some easy mode killing.
You know what? Sure why not? If they don’t harm core mechanics, they can outfit me with a sword made pillows. It could be fun honing what’s left into a legitimate weapon.
Is that the JP? Judging by those screens I’d say they were camping waiting to gank whoever came by. Judging by the limited terrain, they probably could have killed you with anything just by the nature of the attack. (They just happened to be using 2 classes that eat lone wolves for breakfast.
I’ve been playing S/D from the start and haven’t really noticed any glaring deficiencies. Dunno what you’re going for with your build and style but my 0/0/20/30/20 build has served me well enough. I generally rely on Tactical Strike for free hits, and have myself set up to gain Might on dodge rolls and various boons on steal. I’ve got Caltrops to win by attrition if need be, Shadow Return, Withdraw and Shadow Refuge as escape options and usually use Thieves Guild. I have Dagger Storm too but I generally save that for large scale WvW battles where I can put the reflect to good use. My last utility is Signet of Shadows, quite useful for getting around quickly and avoiding unwanted fights.
You’re an Ele right? Try some AoEs and CCs and of course condition removals. One tips is don’t get rid of the conditions immediately. Try to get them when they’re at their worst.
Churning Earth, Signet of Earth, Evasive Arcana, Earthquake, Frost Aura, Frozen Burst, Glyph of Storms, could help slow her down. And long channeled skills like Arc Lightning could help keep track of her. Also try to find a location that gives you a terrain advantage. Vigorous Scepter or Arcane Energy could help too.
I can’t speak for Dungeons but for general PvE I’m able to get around just fine. Shadow Refuge alone makes gathering things like well guarded Ore veins and completing skill communing skill challenges easy. I’ve been going around Orre recently and have been able to sneak into some pretty mob filled areas with little fuss. In groups my build brings Shadow Refuge, Caltrops, Cluster Bombs and Choking Gas to the table.
Is going around reporting enemy activity such as zergs on the march or gathering forces considered useful our am I wasting my time typing?
Got any tips how to gather useful intel?
I’ve never camped the JP but I can see why people would find it fun. I find running down solo players and harassing enemy zergs fun. (Not like I can do much to the latter but being an annoyance is fun) In any case there are ways to get around campers if you know what you’re doing. Get an item with a constant glow effect like the Mad King Tomb or the Firey Dragon Sword (wish I could find a less exclusive example, not sure how the Citadel of Flame armours glow in stealth) and you can use that glow to get through the dark room without needing the environmental torches, and because of that, you can use all the fountains which grant 4 minute long stealth to get through the puzzle without alerting the campers to your presence. (I credit Wooden Potatoes with this info.)
how so? In other games 1 skilled player can kill 2-4 bad players if they play well. In GW2 you can’t do that thanks to downed state.
If anything it removes a level of skill and simply makes it a numbers game. Oh you could 1v2 them? oh, well you got downed state to deal with so better bring a friend to make it a 2v2 roflstomp for sure.
Except you can still kill 2-4 weak players solo. I see vids of people doing it in WvW all the time. You could say it’s different because of gear but at the end of the day a bad player and an under prepared player both under perform, and that this also proves that skillful playing can also overcome the downed state. I mean seriously I’ve seen a D/D ele take out 2 groups of 4 in a row.
They fact that people have figured out how to overcome the Downed Hurdle and some have even learned to make it an asset when facing more then one opponent solo shows that it’s possible to work with it rather then against it. It also proves that if you aren’t trying to master it, you’d rather whine for something to be removed rather then try to learn and understand it.
The only trait that boosts Thief’s endurance is Feline Grace which will all them to do 2 dodge rolls then one more after a brief pause before having to wait as long as everyone else to dodge. (Signet of Agility (on active) and Wild Strike refill it too but are far from granting inifinite endurance) If you want a class that has a lot of endurance, check out Ele’s traits. (Also Ranger and Engie can recover endurance at 50% faster.)
As for the cooldown thing. Look at my breakdown on initiative and cooldowns.
We’ve also got a utility skill that refills our endurance, but it rarely sees use.
I mentioned it. It’s called Signet of Agility. Gains Endurance for every nearby Ally.
I’d say it can help you practice the class and become well accustomed to it through experience, but on the flipside being elite demands way more then knowing yourself. On the other hand, playing multiple classes can hamper your progression with one class, but you’ll get a better understanding of other’s class’ strengths, weaknesses and tendancies faster by multi-classing. Another factor is teamwork, how well do you work with and communicate with others.
It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.
so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.
The only trait that boosts Thief’s endurance is Feline Grace which will all them to do 2 dodge rolls then one more after a brief pause before having to wait as long as everyone else to dodge. (Signet of Agility (on active) and Wild Strike refill it too but are far from granting inifinite endurance) If you want a class that has a lot of endurance, check out Ele’s traits. (Also Ranger and Engie can recover endurance at 50% faster.)
As for the cooldown thing. Look at my breakdown on initiative and cooldowns.
Does thief skills have any long cool downs on their skills like say every other class? How about mesmer? Cause these 2 class’ seem to have their skills up all the time while my other characters have this long timer for ALL SKILLS!
All of Theif’s weapon skills run off an energy system called initiative. Thief has 12 points of initiative and can have up to 15 initiative while traited. Skills have an initiative cost ranging from 2-6 where most normal skills cost 3 (only Shadow Return costs 2), skill that are all about damage generally cost 5, and high end utility skills (Cloak n Dagger, Infiltrator’s Arrow and Black Powder) cost 6. Initiative replenishes at a rate of 1 point per 1.67 seconds, meaning if a Thief uses all his/her initiative, they won’t be able to use another weapon skill for another 5.01 seconds and won’t be able to spam skills for even longer unless they use traited abilities or Roll for Initiative (a backwards launching stun break that grants 6 init on a 60 second cool down.)
All of Thief’s utility skills have a 30-60 second cooldown, all stealthing utilities have a 60 second cooldown with the exception of Smoke Wall which can grant stealth if one uses a leap finisher through it.
For heals, Signet of Malice and Withdraw are on a 15 second cooldown, and Hide in Shadow is on a 30 second.
For Elites, Basilisk Venom is 45 seconds, Dagger Storm is 90 seconds and Thieves Guild is 180 seconds.
Agree 100%. No fun whatsoever imo. Please give me a ‘self destruct’ 5 button. This, and underwater combat. Seems to me these two features were added as something diffetent from other mmos. Well, it hasn’t worked as far as I am concerned. Don’t do something new for the sake of it. Extra balance issues to take care of and just frankly boring.
Land combat while not downed – amazingly good fun. When I am knocked down, for the love of god just let me respawn…
This is the right idea.
Player’s already d/c to give the middle finger to their stomper .-.
If they add a button like this it should be an automatic 25 points for opposing team.
Anyways, to address those saying the possible burst nerf will get rid of the need for downed, you’re thinking too narrowly. Back in GW 1, a popular tactic for quickly killing an opponent was Spiking. For those that don’t know, Spiking is basically when multiple members of a team, burst down a single enemy target. If you think BS burst impossible to survive, think 5 people bursting you down in the blink of an eye. And the only way to nerf something like that is to nerf everyone the point that a glass cannon Ele would have the survivability of a Bunker Guardian. (And bunker guardian may as well be a keep wall)
Personally I like the downed system. Only tweak I’d make is decreasing Rally’s effective range.
The halloween item isn’t the only item this works with. If you can get a Firey Dragon Sword Skin or any other item that permanently glows should suffice.
I’d say use what you’re most comfortable with on you melee set. Just understand its limits. I suppose the same can be said for ranged but I really find my Shortbow invaluable. Infiltrator’s Shot, Signet of Shadows and Shadow Refuge has really gotten me out of some sticky situations. My melee set is S/D and I find it good for chasing down loners while still being able to contribute in big fights. My other utility is Caltrops, for the added edge in a fight, and I switch between Dagger Storm and Thief’s Guild as I see fit. Usually have DS in zergs do capitalize on all the cross fire and use TG to finish small scale fights quickly. I go 0/0/20/30/20 in traits and find I what this build has opposed to other classes is the mobility and illusiveness. I can camp around an area with a high concentration of enemies, harass and possibly kill anyone who strays too far from the zerg and easily escape them when they decide I’m too annoying to ignore. Good for scouting too report enemy activity too. Oh and I have Withdraw as my heal cause of its fast recharge and quick space maker properties.
If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.