Guild Wars 2

Legion.4198:

I guess that the ones producing hydrogen/helium are the humans. The Charr have shown no signs of chemical industry characteristic of the 2nd Industrial Revolution (which would explain their lack of high-powered explosives). That or they are glorified Hot air balloon.

Have the humans shown this?

(I really don’t know)

what you’re saying doesn’t even make sense because you obviously don’t know much about biology.
a cell is a cell. no matter where it is – in a human, a monkey, a plant… if it’s alive on this earth it has similar limitations (and as far as i know asuras did not come through a membrane from another world, they evolved on tyria right next to skritt, humans, norns and everyone else).

a biological cell is not capable of storing and processing infinite amount of resources because membrane itself will limit osmosis and diffusion.

so you can’t just say “asuras are alien biology does not apply to them” or “lol, it’s magic!”.

i’m sorry but that just does not work for me.

“We don’t know the limit of human connections, let alone the limit of asura.” : Is what I said.

I know enough to know what humanity doesn’t know yet. i never made a claim or even implied anything about infinite amount of rescources. So whatever works for you, go with it. just don’t try to twist my arguement beyond recogniziation in order to create the illusion of credibility for yourself. Becasue I’ll call you on it.

btw: Humans are the ones from another world. brought here by the gods. Nothing even implies asura and humans are from the same world.

edit: Even if we did know the exact limits of cellular activity, Sylvari seedplants get planted, sprout, grow and spend incredible amounts of energy damaging oponents in seconds. Chances are, magic does play a factor in at least some cellular activity.

We have answers: (Not many in-world know this but….)

I’d trust the second one over the first given the consistant measuring point and comparison. The first one may have been before the game came out in it’s final form.

You’re example is an example of fan-fic. So it isn’t applicable. Now if Tolkien actually had written that in a previously undiscovered book. Then it absolutley would be the lore of LotR.

By your logic, any major patch and expansion killed GW1 along time ago. Why get so angsty about GW2?

A history major especially should have a better understanding of how the story can change whne looking at it from one societies perspective or looking at it from a broader view. You should know how history has already changed as we’ve looked at accounts from the “losers” in history.

The history of tyria isn’t changed. It is expanded. it is now more true than it was in GW1 when you are looking at it from one characters eyes in one race. which is the point of view the writers delivered it by. What you’re asking for is a new game with no new content. No new characters. No new dungeons. No diffrent time frame. Only delivering the same thing would with possible diffrent game mechanics would be a way to avoid any and all retro-active editing. Might as well go back to GW1.

History changes as we learn more. Our understanding of history is constantly changing. We learn that historical heroes are flawed. we learn what their flaws are. And it is oftenn disappointing. But it is more true than what you used to think. What you’re doing is living in colonial Americas and then being upset becasue they turned into a powerful nation ruled by themselves. As time goes on, events change the face of the world. In GW1, we had one little piece of history. it had it’s own zeitgeist. Now we learn about a broader span of time and it is unreasonable to expect the same zeitgeist. that would be unrealistic and untruthful.

Liek god elementals. Which may be the struggle between the mantle of godhood and the ED’s. A fight for power between ancient primevil forces and the comparatively newer forces behind thinking beings.

The writers were writing from a human perspective because our characters were human. it is definatlly retor active editing but that’s a good thing becasue without it, it is just humans fighting mostly the same dumb beast we had been seeing in the world. Wich is why the human lore has a smaller percentage of the over all pie without actually taking anyhting from humanity that was set in stone.

That’s exactlly what they did. Norn call them spirits of action. Asura call them large parts of eternal alchemy. which is just an all encompasing philosophy. They remained the same beings. So they became gods of other races. The only diffrence is whether or not they are worshipped. But that is also retro active editing becasue nothing indicated they were anyhting to any other race.

Even the Charr used to have some fondness for Melandru

You just embraced some retroactive editing. it is unavoidable if we want anything beyond human characters. Making GW1, they needed to decide what defined humanity. making any other playable race requires the same process. That process becomes retoactive editing and new lore is revealed that previously didn’t exist but always has in the fantasy world. Without it, there is no history at all beyond what we already knew. Adding to human lore is also retro active editing. Every expansion and big patch is retroactive editing. This is how worlds are born.

Grand events in history don’t always take the most efficient route.

We can only have 100%. In GW1, human perspective was that 100%. In order to include other races, the human lore is going to have to take a smaller percentage of the lore pie. As you said, they was no indication but that didn’t eliminate it. Only the fans assumptions did. But, we were wrong. e.g.: if the human gods were gods of all of tyria and not one of multiple pantheons, then we would still have found out that they aren’t just human gods. Then the complaint would have been that only humans should have gods. honestlly, I don’t see the problem.

I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightning.
I see bad times today.

Don’t go around tonight,
Well, it’s bound to take your life,
There’s a bad moon on the rise.
I hear hurricanes ablowing.
I know the end is coming soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of rage and ruin.

Boom! Thalador with the headshot.

The bad news is, I’m going to have to operate. The good news is, I just graduated medical school so the info’s still fresh.

If asura had a king, that would be it. Who would argue with someone that looked like THAT?

I like the way you think, Xhyros!

They may not be entirely unrelated. Maybe Melandru took the mantle of godhood after Melaggan died.

That^
i was plesantly surprised to see native American tatoos.

Whether adventuring out in Tyria, conducting experiments in Rata Sum or crewing an airship, Whkk looks good.

Grindahl, engineer hyena monster and Rhipclaw, werewolf/rat looking warrior.

Ashe Tongue. Necromancer.

Gaze upon his countenence, and despair! :P

Blurple!

becasue the name of the color rules :P But seriouslly, you will get diffrent effects evn by just playing with the glow intensity slider.

edit: here’s an idea for you. Violet pattern color and seafoam green glow. This way you get kind of a bio-luminecent moss glow

I love that humans aren’t the dominant race in GW2. In most every other fanasy, humans are the most well rounded and that is why they dominate against evryone else. In GW2, humans dominated for a time thanks to the backing of their gods. the gods “abandoned” them and they went into decline, much the same way Thruln described it happening to the giant races. (Whether you trust his account or not, the similarity is there).

In GW2 humans aren’t the youngest or the most overtly well rounded race. i think it helps them fit in the world better than how some other fantasy setting do. Here they are a race like any other. susceptable to damage from the other races.

there is still a very finite amount of connections a brain can manage.
this is also one of the reasons that humans don’t seem to be getting any smarter then they already are – we are limited by our biology in that neurons can only make so many different connections.
also, there’s an issue of power supply. a biological cell can carry a finite amount of resources.
our own braisn already consume 20% of resources.
if asuran brain consumes lets say 30%, not only would it stall physical growth, it would stall the growth of brain itself….

We don’t know the limit of human connections, let alone the limit of asura. We may be limited by our biology but asura aren’t. They are limited by their own unknown biology the same way chimps and humans have diffrent limits. You bring to mind an image of a chimp arguing with another that humans can’t have as rapid an establishment of connections that humans have becasue chimps don’t have that capability.

We also know that asura eat "brain food’ and expect noticible results from just one meal.

if asuran brain consumes lets say 30%, not only would it stall physical growth….

think about that :P

“Amusingly, the human NPCs ignore them as well and keep assuming that other races just worship the human gods under different names, which is a certain type of arrogance there.” :P

Eh. Might not be only a matter of opinion. They preface the explanation with “The whole question of gods is based upon culture”. So they seem to start off by validating those opinions.

Right. me too. but the entire paragraph only reveals an interchangeability that is dependant on wich race is looking. there is nothing at all that hints at any differentiation. especially the facvt that humans would call the spirits “gods” as well. So, as I said, nothing concrete but this only points to them being similar, not diffrent beyond what they are spirits of.

They do have sex but the “gender” of their partner is inconsequential. It really comes down to a philisophical matter.

1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

By this definition they, as a race, do not have a reproductive gender.

2. the sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.

By this definition they do have structural genders.

So the answer can be yes or no but it really doesn’t matter which one we choose because it would still amount to a description of the same idea. that sylvari can’t sexually reproduce, they have sex for fun but their sexual organs are not a factor in determining who it will be with.

Historically, wise rulers had food stores ready against droughts and famines. Add that to what’s been metioned and it is possible to have held out for a bit.

Nothing concrete but A-Net seems to be putting the spirits and the gods in the same catagory in this interview.

The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods” as well. Norn would disagree. And describe the human gods as being “Spirits of Action” of the humans – Balthazar is obviously War, and should be spoken of as such. Kormir is Knowledge, and calling her Kormir is a quaint human thing. http://www.guildmag.com/gmblitz-lore-interview-with-jeff-grubb

Humans have bigger brains than chimps during the foetal stage but chimps perform better at IQ tests during the first 2 years of life. Then the chimp mental potential plateaus and humans surpass them. chimps also develope into adulthood sooner.

“What’s really unique about us is that our brains experience rapid establishment of connectivity in the first two years of life,” said Chet Sherwood, an evolutionary neuroscientist at George Washington University, who was not involved in the study. “That probably helps to explain why those first few years of human life are so critical to set us on the course to language acquisition, cultural knowledge and all those things that make us human.” http://www.livescience.com/25655-chimp-brains-reveal-human-intelligence.html

So asura may experiance extremely rapid establishment of connectivity.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Now you’re just being silly. Yes, definition for puppet is pretty clear:

pup·pet
noun
1.
an artificial figure representing a human being or an animal, manipulated by the hand, rods, wires, etc., as on a miniature stage. Compare hand puppet, marionette.
2.
a person, group, government, etc., whose actions are prompted and controlled by another or others.
3.
a small doll.
4.
Machinery , poppethead.

None of which state a requirement of active control from the user or the puppet becomes 100% inactive.

And hey, one can argue a golem is a puppet, based on definitions 1 and 2. Artificial figure being manipulated by wires and gears; a machine.

gears? definition 1 is refering to actual puppets that have rods to manipulate them by hand. like muppets and silk screen theatre puppets. “Compare handpuppet and marionette.” Most of us know what a puppet is. it really shouldn’t need to be specifically stated that they require an operator becasue the examples both need operators. But let’s use your illogic. You’ve now eliminated that just becasue something is puppet, that it can’t have a will of it’s own since “None of which state a requirement of no individual will beyond the user of the puppet”. See how rediculous that is?

The difference between a minion and an automaton is that automatons simply need to push an on button once created. Minions cannot be active without the necromancer proactively willing it.

wait for it….

It’s just that they don’t go limp once the necromancer stops paying attention.

So when the necromancer dies……

At best, a minion would be an inbetween of a puppet and a automaton.

which means I was correct when I stated that they are a bit more than a puppet. But how are they diffrent from an automoton if they continue to act after the death of the necromancer who is activly willing it?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re thinking puppets animated by magic would act the same as puppets animated by standard non-magical strings.

In which case, they don’t (necessarily) act the same. It varies by the type and purpose of the magic used, and in this case they don’t act the same.

if there is no standardized definition, they can also be called birds, bricks and ice cubes. As long as I say these are magic birds bricks and icecubes that don’t follow suit with nonmagic ones. The term puppet is pretty clear.

Except that it doesn’t have a goal. A goal implies independent thought – it would merely be acting on the last will of the necromancer and/or the purpose of its creation: to kill enemies. This is the necromancer’s “programming” so to speak into the minion. But without the necromancer to differentiate what’s ally and what’s foe, the minion can’t tell.

A goal in no way implies a need for independant thought. Computer programs have goals. the same goals they were designed for.

And btw, there are more puppets are than just marionettes.

Yet they tend to require direct manipulation for all action. That’s what a puppet is. It’s what distinguishes them from classic golems and other autamotauns. Which is what you are describing.

Yes, that situation would be comparitive, though that wasn’t meant as an example of the necromancer losing control.

I was bringing two scenarios into play: one where the necromancer literally loses control, and the other where the necromancer just thinks he or she lost control.

And I wouldn’t say it’s that extreme. Psychological issues are probably more common than not in a world like Tyria where there are practically threats around every corner and tree. It’s a surprise so many people live, tbh, especially not paranoid like hell.

Psychological issues are common. that degree of psychosis IS extreme. When psychological issues start being the norm, they stop being psychological issues since psychological issues are culturally dependant.

that link just went in the library. nice

The other side of the coin is that the more the sylvari get thrown at the dragons because they can’t be turned, the more fear, anguish, horror they experience and share with the dream. thereby they may not be corrupting the individual but they are actually helping to corrupt the source of the individuals wich would eventually produce a corrupted race that reproduces independantlly, if it’s not managed carefully.

The only real reason they couldn’t is the values of each race. They are incredibly diffrent. it would take one extremely hardy, tireless, capable non-norn individual and/or a super lazy Norn who suddenly stops thinking like a norn. (only because though norn can make a name for themselves with peaceful endevors, Anet sais they go from feat to feat which is why they often die before old age.)

the ….physically intimate… challenges can be worked around with a devoted couple but the cultural and psychological diffrences are great. not impossible, but norn never stop chasing their name and that would take a lasting toll on any other race. But short flings are probably the most common of Norn interracial coupling.

Nice find Konig.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not really – minions are, by effect, mindless killing machines. They’re created by the necromancer’s own energy, tethered merely by magic, and once the necromancer is no longer there to control them (e.g., they die), they go killing anything they see.

which makes them a little more than puppets becasue puppets need their strings pulled where as mindless killing machines are autonomous. At best, they are merely golems but I like to think they would be more like highly trained, killer dogs that only ansewr to the owner. Except the owner can pull the life force from the dog at any time. ….and the dogs are under magical controle :P

Mind you, this is in GW1. In GW2, minions continue to fight only your enemies in GW2, so maybe this flaw was overcome in the 250 years.

This implies a more direct relationship between the will of the necromancer and the “will/goal” of the creation. But any goal the creation has after the death of the necromancer points to it being more than just a puppet. Even the classic idea of a mindless/soul-less golem fulfilling it’s duty centuries after it’s creators death is still more than a puppet.

Typically, yes. And in GW1, it shows those who cannot control their creations are, normally, killed (rather than enslaved). But what if the necromancer went through a traumatic experience? Say, s/he was nearly killed by a swarm of risen, and/or lost his/her best friend to them? That may change things – shake up the necromancer to the point where they lose control of the minions they make, through psychological trauma.

So it’s a possibility – a necromancer who has natural talent in necromancy thus easily able to control minions can, through psychological dillusion, make it so that he or she is “enslaved” to the minions. This wouldn’t be actuality, but rather due to an insecurity on the necromancer’s psyche which allows it.

The enslavement to minions would be purely imaginative (they couldn’t actually control the necromancer, but the necromancer would believe they can), but it’s still very real to the necromancer.

It’s very little to the concept of an abusive imaginary friend.

An abusive imaginary friend is an extreme event on the same level as a golemancer creating an automoton with a remote off-switch and the golemancer believing that if he pushed it it wouldn’t work so he just refuses to push it. possible but then so is just about anything when combined with extreme delusion and irrational fears. In wich case they don’t actually lose controle, they just think they have. And they are really letting an autonomous creation run it’s course.

edit: Konig brings a great idea. The necro wouldn’t actually be enslaved but if he is extremely delusional, his subconscious may be controling one or more golems that allow him to think it’s in controle. Maybe there is one lump of meat and bones, sitting in a corner that the necromancer thinks is talking to him. But it is actually a voice that comes from his own demented mind. any movement of the meat against the necro is actually controlled unkowingly by the necro but with extreme psychosis, it is possible as konig said.

Losing controle and rampaging means they would be a bit more than flesh puppets. Though, I agree, the training a necromancer would go through should eliminate any fear of their own creation since they know how it works, how to controle it and how to take back the power that gives it life.

It’s not a bunch of gangmembers or vikings. it’s an entire race of them. So lets compare violence. Humans who have a standing army, or Norn who are so violent individually that they never needed to establish a standing army. Huamns who have more butchers, bakers and candlestick makers and other non-militant citizens, or Norn who are a race of warriors whp’s “non-warrior” citizens are also often looking for some form of battle. I’d put Norn above humans. Or at the very least, on the same level since humans are historically violent in armies if not individually.

Charr are extremely violent. that’s not even a question. sylvari are the most peaceful and asura who are slightly more violent than sylvari.

I omit the inquest only becasue A-net has said that Inquest values don’t line up with most asura. Where as Norn accept infamy simply because it lines with their values which is an additional bump in norn violence.

To be fair, they wrote out the skritt genocide. And though they are mostly intellectual jerks, the majority do have compunctions about experimenting on sentient creatures. So while they aren’t peaceful, their dreams of world domination aren’t really backed by a whole lot of violence toward other intelligent races. There’s probably alot of politics in their plan. maybe something to do with the travel gates.

Tarn.1374:

I almost agree with everything you’ve said.
However; you say all that and then give an image with a human-centric background?! Raven’s Wings!
Your character should be out and up in the mountains where there’s snow underfoot and the air’s crisp and fresh!

Here let me show you…

+ 1 for you. Beautiful scene.

Cherokeewill.7504:

Or Sylvari may gain the ability to reproduce later in life. As it is, none of them have actually been alive long enough to experience adolescence.

The oldest are 25 years.

What BuddhaKeks said. We don’t even know if humans are related to Norn at all. What we do know is that they are diffrent enough not to be able to procreate.

On relations, I would guess it’s pretty rare but not as rare as some might think. Norn are incredibly individualistic. They have no set family organization. Norn on the frontier may be looking for a mate so any other race probablt isn’t cut out for Norn frontier life. Norn pirates on the high seas, probably aren’t looking for a mate so anyone who fights and survives great battles with them may be an option to ease bordom and provide companionship until they are killed.

Norn are after all, individuals and they are individuals from a non-standard culture. We have their similarities and values laid out. Everything else is up to that individual. e.g. Family life:

Norn families are not really standardized. Knut’s sons live with him in Hoelbrak where as their mother lives outside the city. Norn might live together or live apart, they might have parent of either gender raising the children at a given time, they just seem to go with whatever the individual parents parents decide.

Norn courtship is pretty much shown in Hearts of the North, they try to compete with each other, possibly even boasting about how awesome their legend is.

http://ashenfold.com/pax-day-2-from-a-roleplayers-eyes/

So here we see generalities that apply accross the board and individual preferance that changes among the individual.

OP, that’s seperatist talk. Be careful. Be very careful.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dustfinger.9510:

I would guess they are in the mists. maybe hiding from the Dragons, maybe preparing for the battle. Maybe both, depending on who it is.

Priestess Rhie disproves your notion. Supposedly.

In one of the two story steps she’s in, forget which one, you can ask her where the gods went, she says “we don’t know, not into the Mists at least.” (or something of the like)

They were, supposedly, in the Mists until connection got cut off.

hmm. There’s the obvious response that she may be wrong but that seems weak and I have an issue about just disreguarding an NPC’s dialog for no reason.

perhaps they are hiding and preparing in one of the other worlds that the mists lie between. But it does seem A-Nets intent that they probably aren’t in the mists.

If we go back and look at one of the clear sources of inspiration for the norn – the Vikings at the height of their raiding didn’t really think of it as war or invasion so much as a few dozen mates getting together and raiding the soft southerners, but I don’t think anyone would regard them as ‘peaceful’, and the Vikings themselves certainly regarded themselves as warriors.

So much this.

if me an all of my friends value reputation so much that we often attack and kill other people just to get more street cred, we would be labled a violent people. We don’t need to declare war on anybody to be violent. So while SoE is right that not ALL Norn are 9 foot tall warriors. It IS a generalization that can be applied to their culture becasue so many of them are. So if the generalization is true then the Norn are a violent people. How is that even up for debate?

So how is a Norn not a warrior if he frequentlly hires himself out as a mercenary? And how does that show that he isn’t violent? Just becasue your people are powerful enough that they never needed to adopt organized warfare doesn’t mean they aren’t violent. In the norns case, they clearly are.

sex
[seks] Show IPA

noun
1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

2. the sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.

3. the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct.

it’s not thin ice if it refers to the species in general.

Who’s responsible for all the bad jokes. Who’s in Charrge here?!!?

Agreed. You only got out of it by doing another heroic deed and surpassing the Norns reputation.

Zaxares.5419:

I’m happy enough with my Charr choosing them for racial sympathy. Let’s just say he feels a need to educate them on not needing to worship something to have a sense of purpose in their lives.

They worship your Norn now, don’t they? ;P

probably some where in the middle. In GW1, Norn was trying to hook up woith you heroic character. becvause your a hero. But it would take a special kind of anybody to want to try to keep up with a norn on a regular basis. As A-net said, Norn don’t think like humans. They have their own values.