On hypothesis, I’d speculate on the charr having purged them early from charr lands. The GW manuscript said dragons of all shapes sizes and origin had called cantha home.
We don’t really know of any special dragon creating item in cantha (that I can recall) or of any dragon repelling item throughout the rest of the world.
Oo, while researching, the GW1 wiki says drakes are a kind of dragon. So, in that sense, I am wrong. The charr have not purged them from their lands and they are familiar with them.
To add, polytheistic cultures usually accepted other cultures polytheistic gods as also being gods. They just weren’t “their own” gods. So battles were seen as sign of who’s god(s) were more powerful or at the very least, who was favored by their god(s).
I don’t think we have any actual evidence that the charr didn’t know of other types of dragons. Only that they didn’t know of the very specific non elder dragons that the humans had contact with. But nothing mentioned precludes other non-ED dragons from having existed in charr lands.
The ones we get come from the Dream but it was my understanding that the Pale Tree knew what they were. So …….. I guess we stand by for plot twist O.o. Good catch.
Agreed Drax. It may have been more of a personal stigma in the book from a lone warriors POV, than a societal stigma.
That’s a good point, Max. It brings up some possibilities.
The Pact is doing it and they are a collection of species cooperation. When Abbadon did it, there was little to no cooperation. Could be that the rest of the gods wanted to wait until the world was ready. IDK, something for the writers to consider.
Did Abbadon love humans?
An inscription on the mural of Abbadon doesn’t seem to indicate that he wasn’t very compassionate. “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy.”
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Yeah, I’m not sure him “representing” the gods meant he was their leader. As he was “representing the gods to give out magic”.
To me this sounds like he was doing it on “behalf” of the gods. But because he gave “too much”, they decided to reign him in. He voiced his complaint and they ignored him. So he raised an army and decided that he should rule. If he was the leader, it seems to me that there would have been some kind of indication of him trying to take back leadership. Not just take it.
So, Loki is saying that One needs to try harder :P
That’s something to think on.
And those horse archers are a good point. I’m not sure they would have been very effective against fully armored Euopean knights beyond not being able to get caught but from what I read, they destroyed the early Japanese which is what prompted the birth of the mounted samurai. and I think we’d both agree that their legacy is legendary.
edit: Was thinking maybe the archers could have taken the knights horse from them, effectively immobilizing them but it seems the horse had pretty full armor as well. Could be why I’ve never heard of mounted archers being used as “kight killers”. Or, it may have just been a social contraints that kept the best warriors as armored knights and archers as “less than knights”.
I’m not sure who says the best way to kill a tank is another tank. It isn’t the Marine Corps though. I can tell you when I was loaned out to a CAAT Plt as a communicator, we rolled out with the tank divisions. That’s how I know that they skip the rounds across the ground.
That said, changes in roles go hand in hand with the changes of warfare. We seem to actually be saying the same thing here. When the changes of warfare make it easier to take out a tank that is being used as a battering ram, the role of tanks changes.
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While they have always had support, it wasn’t the same kind. Today, we have combined arms mobile infantry that is specifically designed to take tanks out. Meanwhile, in their inception, tanks were more battering rams. In fact, early tanks had machine gun murder holes and machine guns mounted in the sides as opposed to focusing fire on the front. The purpose was to use the tanks armor to protect it long enough to barrel into an enemies trenches and fire down the trench lines.
I make no difference between the relative increased vulnerabilities of tanks and the evolving of warfare. They go hand in hand. I doubt we’d see tanks go more calvary style in the future because todays tank combat is preferable from a distance for specific reasons. To the point that the US military aims to skip a round across the ground to get the hit. As it leaves the tank less vulnerable to more mobile anti-tank units. See the Marine Corps CAAT platoons. They are lightly armored Humvees designed to hunt tanks using speed and maneuverability. Which kind of brings us back on topic. A lightly armored caster that can hit hard from horseback is less armored power hitter like a tank and more light power hitter. Like a CAAT Plt. But a CAAT Plt doesn’t aim to assault foot infantry. As that is playing to the CAAT Plt’s weakness. Not it’s strength.
On cavalry: Agreed. Cavalry had always had it’s position until vehicle technology outmatched them. But the way they had been used had had to evolve as they were killed sooner due to tactics and tech. It’s a matter of relativity to compare a tanks current armor with small machine gun fire because the fact is, tanks began killing from farther and farther away, due to tactical necessity, not tactical arbitrarity.
To add to what Konig said, we can also feel free to consider the psychological resources available. The options that we fairly recently have available to us that make most people potentially salvageable may simply not be available in Tyria. They have mind magic but they may be very far behind when it comes to psychological disorders. Or….. alternatively, the pathology may be well beyond what we have available today.
edit: Most of what applies to the sylvari can also be said of anyone dragon corrupted. So if the speed and ease at wich it’s done is the problem, then the problem is applied across the board. Even the ability for corruption independent of the dragons direct intention. (In the case of Jormag and the Sons)
And in the Sons of Svanirs case, the norns start with no specific qualms against evil deeds. So much so that they would admire them without corruption, as long as they are noteworthy enough.
edit 2: Thinking more on it, the sylvari are kind of a message of hope. Even creatures who are potentially created to be minions of evil have a chance to be something else. Not all will succeed but they are stable enough to send spies and sabateurs into the Court to disrupt their plans.
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We do see rings in that one ear option. Though, I’d agree, nothing in lore about sylvari getting bulkier every year. And we have dev statement that the look of sylvari is only the Pale Tree’s interpretation of a human from the outside.
To be fair, that was pretty close to my position before drax said his piece.
Ah, yeah. Then I’d have disagreed with that. Simply due to the way calvary continued to be of use pretty heavily up until fairly recently (about WW II – ish). But due to technology allowing smaller and lighter units to hit harder, tactics had to change.
Which kind of leads us into Drax’s point on tanks. Tanks is a good example of how nothing in war really becomes obsolete all at once. (The Marine Corps still effectively uses equipment that other branches have deemed obsolete and unserviceable) But as in the case of tanks and calvary, tactics change so that tanks need more protection than just their armored sides. As you said Drax, “rock/paper/scissors”. There’s are mobile units that travel with tanks to protect them from anti-tank personell. So our tank units aren’t the near-impervious armored knights they used to be.
And tanks are getting reimagined so that they become more mobile artillery, able to shoot farther so they are less vulnerable rather than the initial battering ram they used to be.
edit:*I think it’s a safe assumption as we simply haven’t seen those types of limits in the GW universe. No sense in arbitrarily trying to hold GW to another universes rules. Not one based on a game mechanic where the person on the ground is unconscious. Might as well make the argument that people can’t fall asleep unless they are attacked.
Especially when the devs created a universe where almost everyone is born with an inherent ability for magic that can be excercised and refined like any other skill. Keep in mind, the difference between GW1 and GW2 is that unlike GW1, GW2 is full of ambient magic which is the reason nigh everyone has some type of magic.
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Magic users are common. Even in the charr legions. But I don’t think it’s a matter of an army being useless. It’s a matter of having to adjust tactics. So while there are ways of dealing with magic, there are also ways of dealing with those ways. It’s all measures and counter measures. Like any battle. e.g.: RL calvary was susceptible to gunfire in the civil war, but there was still a place for it. Just as there was a place for a bayonet charge. It just wasn’t as big a place as if there was no guns.
I don’t think anyone’s position here is that there is no place for calvary. It’s just that with powerful projectiles being an ever-present threat, that place is less than if there wasn’t powerful projectiles.
I have a weird meta-ish question:
What is the explanation for how/why mana (energy in gw1) was removed? I realize that not having to manage mana makes the game more fun to play and gains a wider audience. But is there some sort of lore that can accompany that change in mechanic? For example: Was there some sort of magical enlightenment, most likely asuran in origin, that allowed Tyrians to access the “Eternal Alchemy” to gain power for spells rather than rely on the energy in their bodies?
Been a while but I do recall something about more ambient magic energy being available now.
ehh…., they’d really have to be the flash in order for a speed based calvary to dominate on a regular basis. because even before there was rifles there was still fire balls. And a rifleman (fire ball weilder) only needs to be in the prone position or to have some kind of cover. So a mounted mage would actually be at a disadvantage against another mage. Rather than be at an advantage. He is a bigger target and by the virtue of riding at his opponent, he isn’t a mobile tank, he is little more than a rifleman on a horse.
I have no doubt it is really just a-net not wanting to deal with mount problems but Aarson Ansari does raise a good lore theory point. While horses would be fine for travel, magic makes cavalry less viable.
To address Kalavier’s points, the bane of calvary is the ability to break up the formation. The same tends to apply to footsoldiers but in the case of footsoldiers, they have the ability (and need) to form tighter groups while working affectively. Mounted troops need room to maneuver without the animals doing more harm than good. Which is why calvary tended to only be employed after the battle was well on it’s way when the formations would be a little more caotic and disorganized. Then their strenfgth is to run through the grass of bodies. Or to skirt the edges of a formation and shave the vulnerable edges that didin’t have the advantage of the main body of a formation. Or, in an emergency, they could have been sacrificed on the outset to punch through an organized formation in order to get them disorganized. But it would have been a sacrifice and only if there was no other option.
Foot troops can reorganize themselves more quickly because they don’t need to take the added measure of relaying their personal actions to an animal. In the case of centaurs, the animal is the thinking foot troop. And centaurs have the added option of personalizing their armour for the whole length of their front body. Like a longer shield in front of them. Though, they’d still need more room to maneuver, they could form tighter formations because theirs no risk of a larger animal next to them getting spooked and wreaking havoc on smaller bodies. And we see that centaurs tend to be more barbaric in their methods, anyway. Less phalanx and more dependant on the strength of an individual warrior.
So, it does seem that fire balls could have kept calvary from being a bigger factor in war. Atleast until the charr came up with a way to protect their mounts with heavy plate armor that could withstand them. And the added bonus of taking out the option for animals to get spooked or thrash wildly in death throws.
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I thought it was clear that Penguins comment about “part human” was a descriptor of how human-like they are. “if you you prick them…….” is a Shakesperian reference from the Merchant of Venice that was making a point of how alike two different people are.
“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?". – (Act III, scene I).”
That said, Weindrasi hit the nail on the head. Charr have their own cultural version of romance. It doesn’t mirror human romance. So, it is in the lore, but it different.
In pantheon theology, it is common for a force of nature or concept to be closely tied to at least a vaguely understandable personality, depending on how that force of nature or concept is viewed by the society. e.g.: In a scalding desert, a sun god may be seen as less forgiving than in a colder climate where the sun is a welcome gift. In which case the later could be seen as more benevolent and caring.
There’s multiple ways a thing can happen. For instance, instead of assuming that each territory was uninhabited by all but one major species, it may have been that the entire land was inhabited by scattered tribes of different species. If this is the case, conquering can still happen by any of the native species. And that conquering would most likely follow some geographical route as the politics, geography and military advantages and organization dictate.
When I say traditional fantasy, I do not mean D&D and Warhammer – things I know nothing of. I mean things like Lord of the Wings, Dragonheart, the original Norse myths that almost all fantasy dragons derive from. And in those, they’re just fire-breathing (sometimes ice or lightning), flying, quadpedal reptiles.
Something that is just D&D and Warhammer is not “traditional fantasy” – it’s D&D and Warhammer. Lord of the Rings is something far more traditional in the fantasy world than D&D is.
yet you sate our intention is to talk about dragons in this thread’s context. The OP mentions his familiarity wit D&D. His question is measured against that familiarity with the D&D universe.
Glint is not flesh and blood, despite your continuous claims. Why? Because she’s a dragon minion, and the only dragon minion that have flesh and blood are risen (and Mordrem, if you include plants amongst the flesh and blood).
Why argue if you haven’t read Edge of destiny?
I wouldn’t call the ED’s a species in and of themselves.
Funny you say this, because:
When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are dragons
When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those.
My qualities I give are “a species”. Yet you say you agree that the Elder Dragons are not a species. Yet you also say that they’re a race, and that all qualities I give for what makes a dragon, the Elder Dragons have.
You’re being contradictory.
Glint is also a true dragon. So there is no contradiction because it doesn’t only disqualify everyone but the ED’s. It includes all “true dragons” as a species. Confirmation here is when I mention the possibility that the ED’s may simply be too old to breed. That signifies that what I’m saying is that they may be the oldest of a species of “true dragons”.
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Given her appearance and the fact she’s a dragon minion, it’s more likely that it’s the opposite.
If you look at the //ost likely).
In GW1, and in the concept art used in Sorrow’s Embrace, Glint has scales (skin), with crystals jutting out.
More evidence of how she differs from regular minions. Have you read the book? It specifically describes her crytaline spikes and scales outside and references her flesh inside. It describes how a turned minions muscles became crystal and his bones became stone. Glint is different. Glint is flesh an the inside. If you haven’t read the book I can answer any questions and provide page numbers for when you get it. I like to jot down the page of interesting lore as I read through.
Fun fact: ArenaNet has, on a multitude of occasions, stated that they want their lore to deviate from “traditional fantasy” – so I would not use such to compare to GW lore. They used this as their explanation for turning dwarves to stone, and in their earliest explanations of the Elder Dragons.
I, myself, have to admit I never played Warhammer or D&D, so I cannot compare between the two.
You stated earlier that “When talking about dragons in this thread’s context, we’re talking about a race of flying reptiles, aka traditional dragons.” This threads context referenced D&D. if you wanted to stay within the context of this thread, then using their dragons would have been beneficial. taking dragons from some other fantasy universe that is not within this threads context only breeds confusion.
Yet when we see it, an Elder Dragon’s blood is crystal (Kralkatorrik) and ice (Jormag), or //see him bleed. So his blood solidifies in to ctystals.
if there is a question about if their blood is really blood, we can’t really be sure it isn’t. But we do know it is his blood is called ‘blood’ and it’s coming from his torn flesh.
We know Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth have scales (Mordremoth at least does in the one appropriate concept art), but that’s really all we have aside from Zhaitan’s body. Which is of… questionable state – he either looks undead, or is undead.
I originally//is disrupted by those electric-like hooks that caused his arm that wasn’t even struck to just stretch and fall off like a zombie from The Walking Dead.
And if Zhaitan really is undead… maybe Jormag really is ice? Maybe the reason why Kralkatorrik is “more magical than physical” is because he’s more akin to an elemental that’s shaped like a dragon, than a dragon with elemental properties
kralk is confirmed to have flesh and blood.
You speak with such asboluteness about the Elder Dragons’ bodies… but what proof do we have about them? We have nothing on Jormag or the DSD, so little on Mordremoth and Primordus, and a questionable amount on Kralkatorrik.
The only question about Kralk is is we cover out ears and sing. he is confirmed to have flesh and blood. So we know,at least he isn’t some dragon shaped construction as you claimed.
Maybe. Maybe not.
It’s a nice conjecture – one I don’t disagree with – but that’s all it is. Hence it remains that we have no definitive proof of a dragon race.
I’m all about lore conjecture. But we can’t get very far if we ignore confirmed lore.
Kralkatorrik’s “blood” is CRYSTALS for crying out loud. Jormag’s “blood” is ICE. That is not flesh and blood.
But I do not recall any mention of Glint or Kralkatorrik or Primordus or Jormag having muscles and sinew and bone and whatever else makes up a reptilian body. We have scales, we have claws, but all else we have is elements.
I really suspect you haven’t read Edge of Destiny as you claim to have.
p.318, 338 Glint and the ED’s are referred to as “true dragons”
p.337 Glints crystalline spikes, scales and muscle is described.
p.379 Glints crystal scales.
p.346 Kralk takes his first breath in millenia
p.346 kralk scaly ribs are described
p.346 kralk sinew flexes and bone folds as he flexes his wings
p.378 Glint’s lungs fill with blood and bubble as she labors to breathe
p.375 Glint’s talons tore off kralks scales and her fangs ripped through kralk muscle. Kralks green blood sprays.
p. 343 Kralk new minions are no longer creatures of skin or scale.
p. 345 Kralk new minions are described as giant stone monsters. No description of muscle like Glint is described.
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Actually, there’s circumstantial evidence that until the titans appeared, the charr were behind most races. The splitting of the Bloodstones happened largely because other races got enough magic of their own to start pressing humans fairly hard, but the charr remained on the losing side until the titans intervened. This may indicate that as a race, they have less magical aptitude in general.
The charr along with all those other races remained on the losing side. This circumstancial evidence holds the charr to a different ruller than all others. And it conflicts with the lore that all natural magic (Not godly magic) is equally available at all times.
Add to that that the Flame Legion specifically seeks to poach the magic-users of other legions, then if magical aptitude is something that is inherited, it’s possible that the incidence of magical aptitude among the other legions has been substantially reduced. (Especially since the lower respect for magic-users may result in lower reproductive success even for those that remain loyal.)
They poach anybody but i’m sure they may be a bit more successful with unhappy casters than anyone else. remember, in the shaman dad story line, the entire warband defected. Not just the shaman dad.
Oh, I expect they train in the branches of magic represented by all of the focuses. However, what they’ll end up doing in most cases is probably a case of ‘what can’t be done by the other guys’.
Or they’d appreciate an intimate knowledge of what can be done by the other guys.
Non-military get trained in magic as well (Kasmeer comments in the Fort Salma PS instance to the effect that her education wasn’t aimed at military service…). It’s likely that nobles, military, and potential priests at least all get the opportunity to learn magic. Similar, I expect, for lay medical professionals. And this is something where we may be getting cause and effect mixed up – it’s possible that the human education system, whatever that is, allows for magical aptitude to be demonstrated and gives those that show it the opportunity to further develop it: but like some scholarships today, that teaching comes at the price of the expectation that the student will work in a particular field afterwards (unless they’re nobles and their family pays for it). So the presence of more magic users among soldiers than, say, street bandits might not be because a human only gets the chance to learn magic if they first volunteer to become a soldier – it might be that if a human student gets high marks in magical aptitude testing (however that is done…) then they start getting offers from military orders and other organisations offering scholarships in exchange for commitments to work for them after they graduate.
Which may, incidentally, go some way to explain why the Seraph has relatively few – they’ve been described as underfunded in a number of sources, so they may not have the ability to offer such scholarships and thus most gifted individuals with military leanings get snapped up by the Shining Blade or Ministry Guard instead.
I hadn’t considered that but it’s certainly possible.
The relevance referring back to bandits, then, is not necessarily that there are few opportunities for lower-class humans to become spellcasters – it might be that lower-class humans who display magical talent get opportunities for upward mobility that means they don’t have to resort to a life of crime.
Also a reasonable possibility.
So in the best-case scenario, humans actually do have a fairly efficient system of identifying magical aptitude regardless of social class and those that are identified are then funnelled into appropriate careers. In the worst-case scenario, for non-nobles it may only be identified if they elect to pursue the right career… but this still means that, proportionally-speaking, a human military force is going to bring more magic to the table than a charr military force (beyond that, let’s keep in mind that this thread is not intended to be yet another e-feline-measuring which-will-win-if-the-war-restarts thread, but that this conversation came up due to a couple of people observing that magic users were rare among charr and somebody else objecting – something which I think the quote at the top of my previous post firmly establishes). Where the truth fits between these two extremes… we don’t know.
Agreed. At no point have I been trying to make this a case of who would win. I only seek to consider and apply all available info that may apply.
Okay, I did a bit of searching, and while I think the guardian stuff is lost, here’s some relevant quotes:
http://project2501.co.uk/gw2/ree_soesbee.html: “Well one thing we did when we were sitting looking at the races and the professions was we made a big graph and put races down one side and professions across the top, and we went ‘How do the asura feel about elementalists? Ok, they like them. How do the asura feel about…’ and we went through each race and each profession, and we figured there was ‘like’ there was ‘neutral’ and there was ‘dislike’. And dislike didn’t mean we never had them, it just meant more rare or more unusual. And when we handed this to the designers we said make the NPCs in the world reflect this. There shouldn’t be a lot of charr who do magic. There are some, and if you want a charr who does magic in this story or this map make sure there’s a reason cause there shouldn’t be many and there needs to be a purpose for him. They… they just aren’t common. The same thing for sylvari engineers. The sylvari are very interested in engineering, but it’s a little unusual for them because it was something that was developed by the asura, and they don’t get on so well with the asura… well developed by the charr, but the asura were the first engineers that the sylvari met, so… Let’s put it that way.”
First off I’d like to say “great reference! Thank you”.
I’d say this is pretty indisputable that there are less magic users in charr than there are in other races. But it raises another issue. All those charr guardians were confirmed intentional. So, given that info couled with the reference that guardians appeal equally to humans and charr, perhaps the charr don’t view the guardians as a magic class the samw way they view other magic clases because it’s not a scholar class. And we know almost all other classes including basic warriors have access to some kind of magic. So perhaps what the charr view as a magic profession is one you have to study in a scholarly format where as guardian magic is accessed in the heat of battle. So may be view more akin to a warrior magic than an elementalists.
Which, short of getting a similar paragraph on what humans do or don’t like (frankly, I would… maybe not literally kill, but you know what I mean… for a picture of that graph), I think is pretty much conclusive, but let’s continue anyway to go into the reasons why:
But the source also specifically says that in at least some cases, the stigma does mean that potential magic users are pushed into other fields. Your own source says so. All that’s left to consider is the ratio – and nothing in the quote points either way in that respect.
Even if we assume a totally authoritarian state with no consideration whatsoever for preferences…
…unless the charr have some sort of spell or device that can detect a cub’s innate magical potential (something I don’t think we’ve heard of anywhere – the Eye of Janthir turned out to be detecting something else), lack of aptitude is easy to fake. I’m good at ///you wanted to or not… well, you could bet I’d seriously consider deliberately doing poorly in maths tests, while spending what spare time I had practicing maintenance rather than numeracy.
Similarly, potential charr magic-users who have a chance at getting into another profession may deliberately do poorly on magical aptitude tests, while doing what they can to /// less magical profession, and because of the stigma, they did their best to ensure that their aptitude tests came out pointing to them being more suited to the more respected profession.
And this is assuming that the non-Flame charr have the same general aptitude for magic as other races to begin with.
Charr enter the fharar very young. Instructors trained in recognizing aptitude for training purposes would have a tough time being tricked by young cubs they have helped raise since childhood. Not to say it can’t happen at all but I don’t see it being an often enough occurance to really count.
I see no reason to assume flame charr have more natural talent for magic than any other charr. Any more than an iron Legion charr would have more natural aptitude for engineering. That’s just what what the nations of the FL and IR respectively, focuses on.
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I wouldn’t say it’s a minority per se – while we don’t know what the current state of education in Kryta is, it does seem that while the criminal and street rat element might be denied the opportunity (as seen by the general lack of magic-users among the bandits) you don’t need to be a noble to receive magical training either, as seen by Marjory and Logan. The common element may be that Marjory and Logan have both been part of military groups (Logan still is) – thus, it’s likely that part of military training is identifying those with magical talent and giving them the opportunities to develop that talent.
I don’t know if it’s likely but it certainly is possible. However they would still be greatly limited by the available troops to train.
Either way, it may be a subculture, but it IS the caste that’s important from a military perspective. When considering what the two races might bring to a battlefield – whether as allies or enemies – it doesn’t matter how many farmers the human side of things left behind, they’re going to have a higher ratio of magic-users. As shown by comparing the profession lineups of, say, the Separatists and the Renegades.
At the bottom line, that stigma is GOING to have an effect. It means that some warbands do push their members away from high-magic professions, and it means that on the individual level, charr might choose to eschew magical pursuits because of the stigma.
if the charr have a higher number of spell casters in a lower ratio compared to their total force, it will matter. So humanity has to make sure they have more troops in any given battle. Remember, SoS states that the tactics that are most effective against charr is to throw wave after wave of human troops into the meatgrinder. It gives the impression that all the enemies charr have to fight on multiple fronts was a big saving grace that humans had during the war.
It will absolutely have some kind of effect. But is it enough to eliminate an established system of where pragmatism in training is the hallmark and where all possible citizens with an aptitude for the scholarly professions can be identified and trained? I doubt it. The charr social structure has such a strong advantage in this reguard.
(Incidentally, another thing we’ve both been neglecting in what’s typical for the races is how they’re portrayed in the books. I think Ghosts of Ascalon is the only one that doesn’t have spellcasting humans playing a prominent role in there somewhere. However, the closest to a charr magic-user I can recall in any of the books is Ember being a (presumed) thief. Even going into the GW2 story, while there are certainly a few charr magic-users around, how many prominent non-charr magic-users can you name (defining a magic-user here as one of the ‘big four’ that uses staff and sceptre rather than martial ranged weapons)? Smodur is described as an engineer, Rox is a ranger, Tybalt an engineer, Almorra a warrior… outside of the charr PC’s warband, and two options for the charr PC’s father where it’s important to the story that they are the professions they are, there aren’t any charr magic-users I can think of with more than a bit part. Sure, it’s a small sample size, but don’t you think it’s saying something that when ArenaNet makes a charr character that’s going to hold the spotlight for more than a single event chain, it’s never a necromancer, elementalist, guardian or mesmer?)
I’s say it says a couple things.
1. In comparison to the entirety of charr society, scholars classes are the most rare due to charr aggressive nature. This doesn’t speak to hard numbers though. Only relative numbers. because when we see the charr proffessions, no element of charr society is ignored due to their educational infrastructure.
2. heroes are more interesting when they have the spotlight. The heroic elements of each legion will likely come from what each legion is known for. since that is what the legions focus on.
But we also have to acknowledge that each High Legion is it’s own independent nation. So each each High Legion trains enough spell casters to be pragmatically effective and enough to reasonably be prepared for future calamities. That doesn’t mean it needs to be the primary focus of military society like it is in kryta or the FL. It just means they have them pretty widely avaibale. especially in proffessions that are confirmed equally appealing.
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Unfortunately, there are some that are outright missing, and we haven’t been able to find them since… and as luck has it, they were the ones that had more lore. For instance, there was one where they actually told the story of how the guardian came to be (in more detail than in Sea of Sorrows, albeit without the ritualist mention) and that’s vanished.
Might be in the TowerTalk profession lore interview, but that’s about an hour long and that’s not time I have to spare.
RL human recollection is too flawed to be reliable without a reference source. We tend to remember what we interpreted rather than what is actually there. Without a source I think the more responsible route is go with the lore sources we do have. The lore we do have is that the guardian profession is equaly appealing to charr and human alike, for different reasons.
Actually, they say that pragmatism is a hallmark of charr thinking – which is not in dispute. However, pragmatism can be overridden by stigma regardless of whether it’s a distinguishing characteristic or not, particularly when that stigma is also a distinguishing characteristic of the culture. What that passage is essentially saying is that sometimes the stigma wins, sometimes pragmatism wins. And every time stigma wins, that’s a potential spellcaster they’ve lost.
The source applies that pragmatism to overlooking that stigma when it comes to training.
Additionally, the stigma isn’t just going to affect whether a charr is allowed to become a spellcaster, but also whether they want to. Sure, there’ll be some where they’re just so fascinated by magic that they’ll study it despite the stigma, or they’re physically unsuited to other forms of combat and being a magic-user is better than the even greater stigma of being useless in combat, and maybe even some that have such a strong aptitude for magic that it’s going to develop regardless of whether they want it to or not. However, there are going to be some that have the potential to become a spellcaster, but also have the potential to be something else… and the stigma will push them to choose the option that isn’t going to lead to potential discrimination. Among other races, magic-users are generally respected and there’s no reason for any member of those races who has the opportunity to learn magic not to do so (although they may avoid necromancy). Among the charr… there is a reason.
Keep in mind, the training is based on aptitude, not preference.
Again, I have a feeling there is an interview somewhere that indicated that the shamans went over permanently, if not then, then later. Certainly, given the description of their treatment in the Ecology of the Charr, and that we know the Flame Legion tends to recruit from dissatisfied members of the other legions, I doubt there are many shamans that didn’t defect. Modern charr magical traditions among the other legions probably grew from those few magic-users they had left that weren’t shamans, possibly along with some cross-pollination from the norn. Certainly, there’s a big difference between the Flame Legion’s magic and the magic available to PCs – Flame Legion magic, somewhat like charr magic in general in GW1, is much more brute-force oriented
We can’ really say “it probably happened” without some type of available source. But keep in mind the shamen had magic before the FL found the “gods”. So the new magic came from the titans as the ecology states. taking away the titanic magic, the charr are left with the same type of magic everyone else is left with. Because magic is a natural force that has been inceasing in potential for the charr as well as everyone else.
Free will is still subject to peer pressure, and it’s even possible that a charr magic-user may be ordered to take a particular path by their legionnaire (staff instead of dagger/dagger for elementalists, say). That example of the Blood Legion meteor shower is in fact a perfect example – the elementalist is providing the warband with something they wouldn’t have otherwise (namely, integrated artillery support that doesn’t require lugging a mortar around).
Again, you may be right. However since it has been confirmed that the weapon only counts as a focus, we know the magic is the same. So charr may not be limited in training at all. Like the PC, and the NPC trainers, they may be fluent in all available focus uses. That would certainly be the most pragmatic way of going about it.
We have no implication of any sort that the elder dragons are able to breed. Without that, I’m unwilling to call them a proper species. And even then – Dwayna gave birth to Grenth, and Balthazar has family relations, and as far as we know, the human gods are ascended beings rather than a single all-powerful species.
I wouldn’t call the ED’s a species in and of themselves. especially if they just happen to be the oldest and most powerful of their kind. I’d call dragons a species. If the true dragons can all be lumped together as EoD states, then the ED’s may simply be too old to breed anymore.
Also, in fantasy settings, I don’t think being turned into something else excludes you from being a species. We know Melandru turned some humans into plant beings. if they could propogate their new kind, they wouldn’t be the human species anymore. They would have been something knew. Keep in mind the term species doesn’t include an origin of the species in it’s definition since scientific opinion is that we all started from one kind of organism anyway.
That’s quite a post so i’ll try to do it justice while hitting the points:
There were other interviews around the time that indicated that guardians were disfavoured by the charr (not to mention the in-game reference in Dinky’s backstory). In the interviews, they were looking to make a special point of establishing that yes, a charr CAN be a guardian even if it seems an unusual combination.
I’d be interested in those missing interviews since the one I have access to says the guardian profession is equally appealing to both charr and humans. Not just that a charr it is possible but equally appealing.
after talking about how it would be unwise to push a cub with magical tendencies to be pushed into another field, Jefkittennowledges that “Some groups do this”. Now, we don’t know the ratio of those that do and those that are more practical, but this shows that there are at least SOME charr with magical aptitude that are discouraged from developing that aptitude.
Some indeed are, but they state that the hallmark of charr ingenuity is to overlook this stigma when it comes to training. Hallmark is defined as a distinguishing characteristic.
The charr narrative has been one of having inferior magic to their enemies pretty much since Doric’s original push into Ascalon. Even under the Flame Legion, most of the magic the charr used was fairly brute-force: even their mesmers and necromancers tended towards direct damage when more subtle measures made better use of those profession’s potential. When the Flame Legion was overthrown, the other legions lost not only the Flame Legion’s magic-users, but according to the Ecology of the Charr, most of their own also went over to the Flame.
The charr used to be primitive. But they didn’t lose the casters when the FL was overthrown. The ecology states the shaman surrendered and the rest of charr society allowed them to live because their magic was useful. The charr ended up losing the FL shaman but every High Legion had it’s own shamen. the FL went into hiding. the rest of the shamen were still available.
I suspect the charr are more practical than that, actually. They have relatively few magic-users, so why train the ones they do have into doing the same things that less magical professions like warriors and engineers can do? Instead, I think they’d be more inclined to push their spellcasters to fill unique roles that can only be performed by magic-users – for instance, the charr mesmers providing disguises for certain events would be an example of this.
I’d think since the training is based in aptitude that there is a lot of free will involved. We know that the weapons are only a focus so the basics of mesmerism may not be so different between the weapon types. Charr seem the type to prefer close quarter fights though with all playable races, they are individuals with their own inclinations. Of course, maybe they don’t tend to have any inclinations either way. The example in the Blood Legion of the ele was that they appreciate a timely meteor shower so that might say something.
human military units are going to have a higher proportion of spellcasters than their charr equivalents.
Id agree with this. it seems to be the reason we think there are more casters in human society than charr. because we mainly deal with the elite minority of human subculture that capitolizes magic training.
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If I want to add a splash of color I’d go with the browns to keep it steam punk. But just add the traditionally feminine colors to small highlight areas. So maybe something like this. And the feminine color doesn’t have to be very bright. There are a lot of hues to choose from.
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Glint is outright stated to be crystalline, as well, however.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
Right. She is crysatlline on the outside but flesh and blood inside just like the ED’s are on the inside. D&D has brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons. All falling under the “true dragon” category.
Regarding Kralkatorrik – and the other Elder Dragons – their state of being is questionable as their existence is, thus far, fully unique.
As for “a definition”. Well, not eldritch abominations that the Elder Dragons are continuously described as being. Not ancient unknowable beings of ultimate destruction and consumption. But something more akin to how they are in traditional fantasy settings – not exactly, but close. If the Bone Dragons were not undead, then that. If Glint was not crystalline, and had a race that she was part of, then that.
The ED’s resemble the most powerful and ancient dragons of other fantasy genres including Warhammer and D&D. that seems pretty traditional. Glint is flesh and blood with crystalline scales. D&D had jeweled dragons.
When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are _dragons_+ – and not crystal/plant/ice/fire/stone/lightning/water/whatever-else-there-may-be constructs created in the shape of a dragon.
They have flesh and blood so they aren’t just a construct in the shape of a dragon. And they are referred to as “true dragons”.
The Elder Dragons are, thus far, just six. This is not a species. It would be akin to saying that the gods are a race. We do not know their origins either – they could be unique creations, constructs in their own right, for all we know. Or, they may be the last and strongest survivors of the dragon race.
Or they may be the most powerful of the dragon species. Seperating them from other confirmed dragons like Glint could be akin to seperating dire wolves from wolves. The gods may well be a species along with the Spirits of the Wild. Or the gods and Spirits of the wild may be more similar than different as the norn believe.
As you said, the Elder Dragons are described as “more magical than physical” – which indicates that they may never have been actually scale and blood. Nothing indicates that they were ever “more physical than magical” as you are hypothesizing by relating them to a specific genre of fantasy dragons (not all such fantasy dragons have dragons becoming more elemental as they become older).
Not all fantasy genres do much of anything. but enough of the biggest and most popular ones do it to make ED’s traditional fantasy genre dragons. The OP specifically mentions his background in D&D. And ED’s are confirmed to already have flesh and blood and scales.
There exists too many unknowns, but the Elder Dragons alone we cannot call a race of dragons. Their champions, dragon shape or not, we also cannot call a race of dragons – at best, they are the corrupted remains of a race of dragons (what Glint is hinted to be).
When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those. Then go on to say “traditional” fantasy dragons. But ED’s greatly resemble traditional fantasy dragons. What is it about your idea of what a traditional fantasy dragon is that disqualifies them? The ED’s and the other confirmed dragon Glint are all living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures. And we have no idea if the ED’s have ever been corrupted by anything since they are the ones corrupting. So we couldn’t rightly say that ED’s are corrupted remains of any dragon race.
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I think colors will be your only recourse. Charr don’t have different clothing style based on gender. though if it’s any consolation, those of us familiar with charr recognize her sleek feminine form and girly antlers
I’d question your definition of “living, breathing dragon”. Kralk takes his first breath in millennia. Glint was described as a mass of muscle and scale. Glint tore into Kralk’s muscles and ripped off scales with her claws and Glint had her lungs punctured.
You may be right, if we can pin down a definition of what you think a true dragon is in the GW universe. Though, it seems to me that as in other fantasy universes, dragons are flesh and blood along with being quasi-elemental forces. And the older and more powerful they get, the more elemental they are. As the book describes Kralk through Glint’s eyes as being more magic than sinew. Though, this may not be exclusive to just dragons. The playable races are described by Oola as being beings that “embody magic”, and Issomir’s body is a place of power because it’s magic lingers as well as it’s body.
Right, ‘Dragon champion’ describes any champion of the elder dragons. I agree with this last post. Maybe I misunderstood you before. It seemed like you were saying that there were no actual dragons in Tyria? that all creatures referred to as dragons weren’t actually dragons but were only “dragon shaped”.
It doesn’t just hint at actual dragons. It pretty much confirms it. The only thing that supports the theory of there not being actual dragons in the world is that a lot of the dragon champions are either constructs or corrupted beings. That’s it.
The term “True Dragon” appears on pages 318 and 338. The context had nothing to do with their shape since it was never an issue. I can’t see why the shape would matter if there was no real difference anyway.
In other fantasy universe, including D&D which the OP mentionsand I think we should gage this threads context by, powerful dragons (old and real dragons) are also presented as primeval semi-elemental forces. The Elder Dragons are traditional dragons. Glint is a traditional dragon.
edit: In D&D a true dragon is a creature with reptilian features that gets more powerful as it gets more ancient. This is opposed to other dragon-like creature that don’t get as powerful as a true dragon can. Examples being a wyverns and drakes. Elder Dragons of tyria greatly resemble D&D’s most powerful dragons, the elder wyrm. They are the eldest aged dragons and the biggest category a monster can get.
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And is there any lore/story behind engineers as i totally fell in love with charrs/engineers. Any links to videos/sites will be appreciated.
Engineer is one of two professions that has specific lore behind it. The second is guardian. The lore of the engineer can be found here in This interview
Eric Flannum: “Engineer technology really developed with the Charr first and foremost. And its one of the specialties developed by the Charr Iron Legion. When we talk about the Engineer he is very much a Combat-Engineer and good in inventing things that are useful in a combat situation. The Iron Legion is the start of all of this, and the Engineer profession has spread to the other races from there. The People of Tyria have seen it in combat over the past few years and have seen the effectiveness of an engineer. And so you are going to see Engineers of all races although it is a little bit more common to see a Charr Engineer than anybody else. So it all started with the Charr and their technological development.”
the dragons we see in modern day hold no evidence to having been actual dragons pre-corruption.
What would the Elder Dragons have been corrupted by though? They are the corrupting force. In Destiny’s edge the Elder Dragon’s are called “True Dragons” in contrast to “the mortal champions” that they had previously fought. And when specifically talking about Glint, she is described as “another Dragon – a lesser dragon”.
This seems to say that there are actual dragons in tyria. Not just something that is corrupted into a form of a dragon without actually being a dragon.
Here’s what I’ve been able to gather concerning casters:
Anet has stated that the guardian profession appeal equally to both humans and charr for different reasons. There is no religious association about the guardian that the charr care about. “They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the Charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.”
On Ele’s, a-net has confirmed that an elementalist would get picked on. But getting picked on doesn’t doesn’t mean the profession is filtered out of society. “But the charr always appreciate a fellow charr who can carry his or her own weight, and while they might mock an elementalist for his light armor, they appreciate the mobile artillery support that a timely meteor shower provides.” http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/guild-wars-2/interviews/jeff-grubb-im-interview-zu-charr-7759/seite-3/
In interview, a-net has stated that some groups may divert those with a talent for mage professions away from them but a hallmark of charr thinking is the ability to be pragmatic about what casters can provide. While there is certainly a stigma against casters, I think people read too much into that to infer that it must mean they are uncommon when a-net has stated that the proffessions you learn in a farar are based in apptitude. Even if there is a stigmatic attitude against the profession, that attitude doesn’t really translate into the actions we as RL humans would have.
Q: “During their training in the fahrar, how is a charr’s profession decided? What would prompt a cub to be given training in spellcasting, when spellcasting is not particularly liked in charr society? Does the fahrar merely give charr a basic military training and they then leave and decide which profession they want to specialize in?”
Jeff: “Profession is determined by aptitude. If a young charr has magical tendencies, it would be unwise both for the cub and the warband to push him or her into another field. Some groups do this, but others are pragmatic about it – a hallmark of charr thinking. They are not big fans of magical abilities due to the previous power of the Flame Legion, but still see magical abilities as a useful tool. The best modern comparison is the American Football Team, which mostly consists of big, beefy warrior types, but really like to keep around the small guy whose only real skill is to kick the ball 50 yards through a set of uprights.” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340
I’d guess that part of the problem here was mentioned by someone in another thread. That because all charr are part of the military machine we hold them to a different standard than other races like humanity. In kryta, most casters seem to be either nobles or some type of profession soldier (In a feudal society the two often went hand in hand anyway). So when most of our interaction concerns dealing with nobles and professional soldiery, we see a high percentage of casters. But when we look at charr, we pretty much deal with all levels since they are all part of the great machine. So it would seem like there is less casters. And indeed, there may be more, percentage wise and numerically due to us looking at the total charr population. Looking at the totality of human society would make casters incredibly rare, and that doesn’t make casters exactly “uncommon” in human society. It doesn’t have the same implications, in any event, if we take “uncommon” to mean “there probably won’t be any around even though we know they are out there …somewhere”.
If a charr has a talent for casting magic they may lean toward the active combat aspects of the professions. Guardians might be common due to their largely melee nature. Duelist mesmers and dagger wielding and elemental weapon summoning elementalists may also be more common than staff weilders.
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Lone skritt may be capable of being heroic, but they do need to be directed by somebody—you don’t see any skritt in leadership positions. I still don’t think a lone skritt, however heroic, is capable of doing some of the things our characters have been required to do. Co-command the pact, lead interracial armies and make logical tactical decisions in a war, gain the allegiance of mistrustful groups, ect.
Being a hero is one thing, being a good leader is something more.
The charr are precisely one of the reasons Hylek won’t make it as playable. The charr suffer extreme clipping and stretching issues with much of the armor—even though they were chosen to be playable before that armor was made. If Arenanet didn’t bother to make the armor to accommodate beast-races in the first place, why would they go back and edit each and every piece just for Hylek? Because, for Hylek to work, that’s exactly what Arenanet would have to do.
Us heroic PC’s take jobs from skritt. If they can lead heroes like us, there will certainly be skritt capable of leading laymen. keep in mind, most asura and humans aren’t built for leadership either, but as a PC, we are the outliers capable of doing anything.
On hyleck, these are certainly good points and good reasons why they might not happen. But my point was that none of those reasons are why they can’t work so that was what I was responding to.
While most dragon champions we have encountered are not dragons, Edge of Destiny does refer to the Elder Dragons as ‘True Dragons’. And Glint is referred to as ‘another dragon’. Albeit a ‘lesser dragon’.
But while it may be possible to stumble across a dragon whelp (because they must reproduce in some way), real dragons are extremely rare in Tyria and as Konig has said, may not even be that small.
I’d go with Konig and have it a dragon shaped minion, in this case. Possibly a necromancers attempt at ultimate power by trying to create a dragon using the tools at his disposal.
Why X race would never work:
Skritt: They are a hive mind. A Skritt hero would be incapable of leaving its home city without being reduced to animal-like intelligence. Unless they are in massive numbers, skritt have the attention spans and logic of toddlers. A lone hero has to be a focused, logical problem-solver.
The skritt don’t actually have a hive mind. Their percieved increase in intelligence is a highspeed communication among all present skritt. So they look at a situation from many different angles. But we have lone heroic skritt wandering the world, doing ust fine.
Hylek: In Arenanet’s book, “The Making of Guild Wars 2”, it is specifically stated that Hylek were designed as “a race not intended to be playable”. They don’t have enough body shape or feature variety, there is absolutely zero gender dimorphism between them, and shaping clothing to their figure would be a nightmare.
All of this is also true of the charr, initially. So while a-net may well keep hyleck unplayable, none of these are reasons why this race could never work.
Feels less bright to me. Condescension is standard for a lot of posters. But at least Veewee was a cheery caricature.
She was cool, and I think she’ll be back
Agreed. Everyone needs a break every so often.
The history will most likely focus on the first in command of the Pact, Priory, order of whispers and the Vigil. The third, fourth and fifth in command of the Pact probably helped defeat elder dragons as well. Who are they?
You forget about immobilize on scepter 3? You can side step but unless you’re a ranger/mesmer or running away the scepter is going to hit. Don’t give me the I can dodge anything + everything because the tells on scepter is so hard to see and the thing is 1200 range. Most classes fight close + medium ranger, scepter does rather well in most situations.
Scepter #3 is on a 20 cd with a 2.5 sec root. Mini-staffing makes the 1200 range a non-issue.
Good point on the tactical perspective but as far as the familial perspective, the military isn’t a democracy. Warbands are thrown together initially, so no one is conferred with and if Rytlock’s actions with Logan are any indicator, no one need be conferred with later on. The benefit of a militarilily structured society is that it’s less likely to get bogged down with debates and differing input.
I suspect they will do in GW2 what they did in GW1. “Group of adventurers”. So I doubt it will be any big issue.