(edited by Fenrir.3609)
Is this a parody thread?
i dont mind a zerk meta in spvp but there should actualy be room for something else out of spvp, Maybe if they raise the critical damage in spvp and weaken it in pve via gear well get to have something that works, it just sound like the most obvious solution to me.
You posted that a nerf to zerk stats will bring more balance because it will be more similar to the spvp set up. Supposedly because that’s fair.
Now you are suggesting that the spvp stat set up is essentially unfair and requires zerk to get a buff in order to balance it out more.
Right…
What about WvW which is directly tied to pve mechanics btw? How does the zerk stat nerf do anything other than further increase the PVT/condi meta dominance there?
If somehow simply nerfing crit dmg makes for a perfectly balanced meta across pve, WvW and spvp, then i’m all for it. If all of a sudden the condi, bunker dominance is broken then great.
Oddly enough I’m not convinced nerfing crit dmg is going to do that, are you?
what we need is critical damage for both pvp and pve to stand between about both
Spvp doesnt give enought critical damage while pve gives to much what about getting something between?
What we need, is for some of those advocating a stat nerf on here and (more importantly) for the devs themselves, to realise that if you actually want to address meta issues (such as zerk in pve), then you need to address the gameplay combat mechanics and mob AI.
Tweaking up or down crit damage will not balance out or improve the meta in pve, spvp or WvW and it certainly won’t improve it across the board when viewed as a whole. If anything it is more likely to make things worse.
If you really want to get serious about this, then a major gameplay/combat overhaul is needed and pvp/pve skills need to be totally separated. But everyone with any sense of reality and any experience with ANet thus far in this game knew that was never going to happen.
Instead what we are going to get will benefit no one aside from a handful of people who really only care that “those nasty zerkers” get a bit of a shafting.
I honestly don’t believe that they are going to nerf zerkers but just make it more balanced with other armors/builds/play styles. Some might get slight boosts and some slight reductions. I am certain zerker will still be very viable.
I dont think the specs need to be looked at. Their watered down content does.
If you give content that has minimal condition removal requirements, minimal buff requirements(such as stability), minimal unique mechanics..and open world content that fosters zerg mentality, then you can nerf any spec you want. Won’t change the fact that 9/10 dungeon bosses and world bosses require no thought whatsoever.
Reworking crit damage and/or nerfing classes is a lazy patchwork job to avoid the bigger issue of reworking their content mechanics (dungeon bosses, open world bosses, etc).
Astounding.
Pretty much nail on head.
i dont mind a zerk meta in spvp but there should actualy be room for something else out of spvp, Maybe if they raise the critical damage in spvp and weaken it in pve via gear well get to have something that works, it just sound like the most obvious solution to me.
You posted that a nerf to zerk stats will bring more balance because it will be more similar to the spvp set up. Supposedly because that’s fair.
Now you are suggesting that the spvp stat set up is essentially unfair and requires zerk to get a buff in order to balance it out more.
Right…
What about WvW which is directly tied to pve mechanics btw? How does the zerk stat nerf do anything other than further increase the PVT/condi meta dominance there?
If somehow simply nerfing crit dmg makes for a perfectly balanced meta across pve, WvW and spvp, then i’m all for it. If all of a sudden the condi, bunker dominance is broken then great.
Oddly enough I’m not convinced nerfing crit dmg is going to do that, are you?
It is from an actual damage + skill / reward point of view, ive seen very glassy player actualy faceroll the hell out of non glass cannon because they actualy know how to play. You may hate on condition user fenrir but it aint like youl need more then one for maximised condition effectiveness so zerker will still be king in mather of direct damage effectiveness in pve nonetheless.
People wich are skilled and run glass cannon gets rewarded by dealing better damage then hybrid tanks who needs more survivability and you have only 1 conditionmancer per party, it totaly make sense.
I don’t hate condi users, I don’t hate PVT users and I don’t hate bunkers. I run or have run all of the above as well as zerk. I actually don’t agree with nerfs in general and am simply pointing out the hypocritical nature of the “zomg nerf zerk camp”.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make about skill, but it seems somewhat ironic given the state of affairs at the moment. A skilled player can no doubt faceroll a scrub without using half his traits and wearing only three pieces of armour. So what?
The fact of the matter is, non zerk set ups are the current meta (for the main) in both spvp and WvW as well as being more than viable in pve. If you think it is a reasonable state of affairs for zerk to get the shaft due to it being the dungeon speed run pve meta whilst it’s fine and dandy for PVT to run WvW and condi/bunkers to run spvp, then that is somewhat strange to say the least.
Any issue with regards to a lack of diversity in pve is down to the mechanics, it has been pointed out numerous times and even some of those actively asking for a change to the zerk meta have pointed this out (and are now dissapointed at the mention of a simple stat nerf).
Nerfing a zerk stat is either going to -
Simply going to keep the zerk meta as it is still the highest dps and just slow people down a bit.
Or, increase the hegemony in the game and we will see condi/pvt dominating pve as well as spvp and WvW.
If anyone thinks a stat nerf is going to suddenly see a wealth of diversity and an end to elite speed run groups and gear pings. Well they are in for a shock.
Other builds dominate the spvp and WvW meta and are lso more than viable in pve. Are we going to see glass cannon full zerk builds buffed in spvp and WvW or a nerf to the current more tanky metas at the same time?
No, ofc not.
builds are actualy more balanced in spvp then they are in pve because stats in pve have been increased. If critical damage in pve is brought closer to Spvp well get something close to an actual balance between class.
Well no, it’s not really and no it probably won’t.
You speak as if crit damage was the only source of DPS in gear. Zerk still got more (or at most the same) power and precision combined than any other set in the game.
This isn’t my point. My point is that in spvp stats are evenly distributed. Apparently the value of critical damage is much higher than other stats. While its true that zerker has more power and precision than other sets, it trades other stats such as toughness, healing power, condition damage and vitality to obtain them. The difference in power between a cleric set vs a zerker set in pve is around is a bit over 200, the difference in precision is around 600. But a cleric set has 600 more toughness and 1200 more healing power than a zerk set. So there is a trade in stats.
This type of balance does not exist with critical damage in pve. Like I said though, I do not know for sure if they will itemize the critical damage stat in pve like it is in pvp. Its just my guess.
They are indeed more even spread in spvp, which is part of the reason condi and bunker builds run the meta and you don’t see over 9000 full glass zerk 100b warriors (doing well).
The WvW meta is also more tank/condi based with PVT ruling the roost.
What we are going to see is glass cannon not only not being the meta in spvp and WvW, but also getting the shaft and not being the meta in high end pve/dungeons.
For the fifteenth millionth time, they’re not destroying berserker gear. They merely stated they’ll be looking to address the current dominance of berserker gear in the current PvE meta. This does not mean it is getting nerfed.
Please, mods, close this shenanigan of a thread.
•Critical damage changes
Apparently active defence is bad, it’s not fair you actually have to think and move, everyone wants passive facetanking now.
Zerker needs to be nerfed, badly. I’m not necessarily opposed to a free respec on zerker gear like what they did with MF, but I don’t really think anyone is entitled to it either.
It’s odd how the people who say “zerker needs teh nerfbat!!”, never come up with a valid reason as to why that should be the case.
because elitism and classism make it go wrong. not every class is good at being zerker.
“play zerker warrior or quit” this sentence sums the pve aspect of the game.
Hyperbole isn’t a valid reason.
And I really can’t understand how people except anyone to take them seriously if they admit that they think “4w+g or 5w” is the best setup in PvE (not to mention people who barely even understand how the game works).
People just seem to mix random stuff together (sometimes issue is classes, sometimes stacking, sometimes gear, even in the same sentence) and offer random solutions which would break lots of things.
The frightening thing is I can’t tell if you are talking about the nubs on here crying about zerker because they seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue/meta.
Or the ANet staff themselves…
Zerker needs nerfing. That is all.
Well that’s a convincing argument.
Zerker needs to be nerfed, badly. I’m not necessarily opposed to a free respec on zerker gear like what they did with MF, but I don’t really think anyone is entitled to it either.
It’s odd how the people who say “zerker needs teh nerfbat!!”, never come up with a valid reason as to why that should be the case.
And yet the WvW meta involves wearing full defensive gear and still steamrolling everything in your path. Buffing defense will just make this dumb meta even more lolworthy.
Pvt gear probably became popular to survive the insane amount of burst damage in pve. If they change zerker in the way I think they will then there would probably be a shift in meta since the disproportionate burst damage will be gone.
No, the PVT meta was brought about and driven by the WvW zerg meta and the heavy condi meta in pvp.
Currently we have the bunker/PVT/condi metas primarily dominating WvW and spvp, with the same PVT set ups also able to do all the content in pve, often with just as much if not more face roll ease as is leveled at zerkers. And yet because some people are crying about zerkers being able to run dungeons faster then them if they know what they are doing. We will now see even more hegemony from the likes of PVT. Awesome.
Zerk had the potential to dominate in one specific aspect of the game, speed clearing pve dungeon content. It seems that some people could not get over the idea that they couldn’t run CoF 1 in their pwnsauce WvW gear as fast as a group who bothered to optimize for the specific pve content they were about to play. As such the latter group is getting the shaft.
If people think nerfing zerk stats is going to promote build diversity, they are in for a rude shock.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
as long as it’s not ascended, it is easy to re-roll another stat. exotics are cheap as hell.
People have ascended. So it is an issue.
This announcement will be a deciding factor for me, and a telling indicator of the dev team’s understanding of balance and willingness to do things right rather than taking the easy out.
The issue at hand is the game mechanics system. We can wear high DPS/zero defense gear in dungeons because NPC AI allows us to stack them up and press “dodge” when the one scary attack comes up.
Is the problem with that system the gear? Does it even sound like it’s the gear? No matter what gear you’re wearing, that is the reality of PvE gameplay in GW2. The fact that defense and conditions aren’t needed in PvE reflects on nothing more than the simplicity and predictability of NPC AI. I will literally beg ANet to fix that instead of tweaking my armor.
Proof: In WvW you fight players, not AI. So what gear to people run? Berserker gear is far from the dominant mainstay. Rather, players run defensive gear (Soldiers, Dire, etc.) gear as the overarching norm because they’re not fighting mindless AI that attacks once a year and stacks to line-of-sighting. They’re fighting unpredictable (sometimes even skilled) opponents who constantly bombard them with damage and conditions which render defensive stats and conditions much more valuable.
Running zerker gear in WvW is basically limited to skilled small-scale fights players who are highly experienced and familiar enough with other classes to use timing and positioning to leverage their damage gear. It’s not like zerker gear is free wins here – if you mess up, you’re dead really fast.
In short, if my gear gets nerfed because PvE content is too predictable, I will take my time and money elsewhere.
They can overhaul the mechanics (which is what is needed if they really want to shift the speed run pve meta (for god knows what reason)), which takes time, effort and ability.
Or they can nerf some stats and achieve sweet diddly adams aside from appeasing a few whinging players, that is until those whinging realise the meta has just shifted a bit and they start crying again.
Which did you honestly think ANet was going to do?
Give the doors retaliation!
Well i’m intrigued.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
lol. Just lol. Can you swap your stats on your warrior rabbit armor when you realise those stats are dumb?. Also, noone talks about “destroying zerkers”. They want to adjust zerker gear, so you aren’t forced to run zerker everywhere and all the time.
Wait, you can’t do any of the pve content as a non zerk and you have to spvp and WvW in zerk as well?
Oh no wait, you are talking rubbish.
And given the time gating/grind associated with ascended gear, yes you should be allowed to change it for free when ANet nerf zerk.
As as side note, you also realise that nerfing zerk stats will do fk all to alter the pve dps meta right?
You can pull in 20g or so a night within 2-3 hours play, very easily without any flipping or TP activity.
Even 10g a day ends up being rather a large amount over the course of a year. People just don’t think mid to long term and instead blow their gold on crap instead of saving it for top end items.
I think everyone knows Zerker needs tweaks, the problem is – Anet. Everyone is worried and rightly so based on experience that Anet FAILS at anything to do with Balance. The most likely scenario we will see – is a HUGE over nerf that pretty much makes all Zerker builds useless…
The problem is everyone knew that to move away from a dps meta in pve in terms of speed runs/top players, that it required a mechanics overhaul and not a nerf.
Actually no, the problem is that everyone knew that ANet was never going to alter the mechanics and was going to simply nerf the crap out of zerker in order to appease a few whingers.
In spvp crit damage from gear is capped out at 20% I believe. Maybe 30% if you get divinity runes. My guess is pve could see a similar hit.
Fantastic, so instead of having a PVT/zerk meta split between WvW and pve, we will get a PVT/PVT meta. Now there is a massive improvement in diversity if I ever saw one.
I think everyone knows Zerker needs tweaks, the problem is – Anet. Everyone is worried and rightly so based on experience that Anet FAILS at anything to do with Balance. The most likely scenario we will see – is a HUGE over nerf that pretty much makes all Zerker builds useless…
The problem is everyone knew that to move away from a dps meta in pve in terms of speed runs/top players, that it required a mechanics overhaul and not a nerf.
Actually no, the problem is that everyone knew that ANet was never going to alter the mechanics and was going to simply nerf the crap out of zerker in order to appease a few whingers.
All is vain.
Nerfing crit damage, yeah that’s really going to remove the pve dps meta and promote diversity….
They didn’t say nerfing, though that’s likely the outcome. Ideally they’d make crits 100% base instead of 50% and remove the stat so power and condition were a bit more even. But who knows.
It’s safe to say they are going to try and nerf it, it’s what they do. It’s sadly also getting increasingly safe to say that they don’t know what they are doing.
At the livestream this friday, they are going to go over the “critical damage change”…
I don’t like the sound of that… Not one tiny bit
The most expectable thing is getting half critical damage on gear split into vitality.
It’s not the kind of “fix” i would want to see (it’s incredibly cheap and lazy; the same result could be achieved in a much better shape with similar changes), but it somewhat addresses the “issue” and is consistent with sPvP gear.This would lower the skillcap of zerker gear even more and make even more people use it. So I really hope anet arent that shortsighted.
You expected something other than a total clusterf&*k solution from ANet?
Everyone with a modicum of sense knew that the dps pve meta was driven by mechanics and not by stats. It was also obvious to anyone with said sense ANet was never really going to overhaul the mechanics, they were always just going to nerf/alter stats.
Which will achieve sweet fa apart from annoy some players and appease others who just have an irrational hatred of zerk players.
At the livestream this friday, they are going to go over the “critical damage change”…
I don’t like the sound of that… Not one tiny bit
Rampager new meta.
And in a few weeks the same people crying about zerk will be crying about rampager, instead of either going for the optimal group comp or just getting on with the content and not worrying about other people doing it faster than them.
Good times.
Nerfing crit damage, yeah that’s really going to remove the pve dps meta and promote diversity….
you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.accept it and get over it.
Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.
The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.
Skilled players running dedicated groups can clear dungeon content somewhat faster with more dps than they can with less dps shocker. Amazing stuff and truly gamebreaking.
Take your zerk warrior and dump him in a random group with little idea of what they are doing. Still easy to cake walk dungeons? Take him and dump in spvp or WvW, still blitzing everyone whilst reading the newspaper are we?
“It’s not fair that my PVT trash tank can’t be the dominant WvW meta, capable in spvp, able to do all the pve but not be able to speed run dungeons as fast as a dedicated dps group who know what they are doing, waaaaah!!.”
Yeah zerk really needs a nerf….
Can people really not see how having more dps/damage if you are capable of using it and staying alive might clear stuff faster in an active defence game than if you have less dps/damage? The mind boggles.
This is a tricky situation. I hope they handle this wisely and adjust weak stats upwards instead of nerfing the DPS game.
I keep seeing the same post from angry players complaining about the DPS dominance. It seems most of these folks have never ventured outside P1 CoF or AC.
Having been in some exquisitely horrible PuGs before, I know that whatever is done to nerf DPS or even buff the damage dealt by enemies will hurt inexperienced players far more than it will harm the folks who regularly speed clear these dungeons.
Now to clarify, I don’t mean ‘z3rk0r guud. kasu4l bad’. I mean that inexperienced players as a whole will suffer. Excluding folks who play support roles because they enjoy them, I think most do because it helps them stay alive. Without DPS players, these sorts of groups will take even longer to complete content. Full zerk teams who run AC and CoF exclusively but lack understanding of the game past ‘where to stand and what to hit’ will also suffer greatly.
The trend is that inexperienced players will suffer the most. Experienced and good players, regardless of gear will bounce back fairly quickly I’m sure. To what end though? Speed clears will still be faster and the divide between ‘speeds’ and bad ‘pugs’ will be even greater.
Folks will still be ticked off that there are good players blazing through content.
Which is why within weeks (probably days) of any change to the perceived zerk meta, we will see the same players crying about how unfair the new optimal meta is, and how terrible it is that the old zerker speed run groups are now doing the content faster than them in the new condi/clerics/whatever optimal group set up.
“Looking for 4 dire necros and 1 clerics guard, gear check, experienced only”.
TY….. I’m completely on the same page with you.
For the question, “why would people want to be dedicated healers?”
….. Because it’s called ROLE PLAYING!
:)
So someones role playing is getting borked up because another, none RP speed run group is getting through a dungeon a bit faster than them? Well that makes no sense at all.
You can RP a dedicated healer and wear clerics gear, hell you can RP a psychopath and wear no gear at all for I care. Not sure why that would require a nerf to zerkers though.
The question was more “why would you get bent out of shape that a dedicated healer is not speed run optimal, in a game which was from the outset, clearly not about dedicated pve healers and the trinity system”. It’s like going and playing Darkfall and then spending weeks complaining about the fact that it is FFA pvp and has looting.
Tankygruops have to stack aswell to be “effective” stacking is the logical consequence out of the game mechanics.
1. No tank>no place where mobs are they follow rnd players>chaos
2. Buffs/Support isonly useable in a area around the player. U have to stack to support others. Healing or might it doesn´t matter
3. ranged dps is bad (even Staff eles dps is bad in ranged gruops), and mobs which are following a ranged guy will be a loss of dps for melees.
This isn´t a zerkergroup problem. They are probably the only ones who care about, cause they know it.If u wear Dire, Zerker, Clerics or PVT all these problems will be exactly the same. To “fix” stacking, they should make GW3 i think it´s to late for such a big change to combat mechanics.
So, standing up against a boss or wall to prevent the boss or mobs from using AoE attacks against the group is ok in your book? It makes logical sense that mobs or bosses won’t use cleave/AoE attacks to hit all of the players at once when they’re standing right on top of them? Enemies should just stand in place and dumbly get hit?
I’m not saying stacking is an invalid tactic. There are situations where it has advantages and makes strategic sense (e.g., grouping up enemies to AoE them to death). I’m saying that it needs to have a greater risk associated with it if people choose to go glass cannon. Enemy AI doesn’t know how to deal with this technique (at least not very well anyway) and as a result it’s become the norm for a lot of players.
The gear itself is fine. The problem is that other gear is significantly less desirable for a lot of players because the game mechanics emphasize DPS over everything else in PvE. Support and control have their place but they aren’t powerful enough to be desirable to a lot of people outside of sPvP and WvW. Most boss fights are just giant DPS checks. And on top of that, enemy behavior just encourages the stacking and auto-attacking strategy. In that sense, zerker gear is a problem but only indirectly. That just isn’t good for the longevity of the game and it goes against many of the design goals ANet seems to be shooting for.
So non zerk tends to be the optimal meta in two out of three pillars of the game, WvW and spvp (as you yourself seem to admit).
Non zerk gear is also more than capable of doing the pve content, more often than not with face roll ease lets be honest.
And then we have full glass zerk groups, dedicated to speed running some pve content. And people are crying about the zerk, really?
The pve combat mechanics do indeed drive a dps pve meta at the high end, should you be concerned with optimal efficiency and worry about doing the content as fast as the next group (a group you aren’t actually competeing with given pve is not a zero sum game).
But quite why people are getting their knickers in a twist because they can’t take their WvW meta dominant PVT character, or their spvp condi build and suddenly blitz a high level fractal as quickly as a dedicated pve zerk set up, well I’m not sure what the issue is.
I gather that the people harping on about a pve meta change and/or a nerf to zerk, are going to spend the next few days and weeks creating endless threads on this subforum asking for a PVT WvW meta nerf et al and a buff to pure glass zerkers in WvW and spvp right?
With regards to this whole risk thing, there is a greater risk, it’s not hard if you have any idea as to what you are doing, but yes, there is a greater risk. There is a reason zerk groups ask for specific group comps and experienced players, there is a reason a great deal of pve players are running around in non zerk, or zerk hybrid builds.
Can someone explain to me, why in a game with no trinity and with active defence. Would people not migrate to more dps gear given they provide support through non trinity traditional means? If you are going to focus on pve and you want to be a more group orientated guard, why would you not provide your support through your skills and as you improve your gameplay also migrate to a more damage gear set up as you learn to actively avoid damage?
Can you not time protection and walls because you have dps gear on?
Why are people so desperate to face tank mobs and be pure, dedicated healers when the game has an active defense driven mechanism with no trinity?
There are so many good suggestions provided here. GW2 is the first MMO I kept playing, and I hope something gets done about the current state of affairs. I like my engi and my necro, and both are good classes, it’s just that others seem to do better in the current environment.
Will the current playerbase always try to exploit any ‘fix’ given for a problem? At least logging in still feels fun to me and I keep my hopes up.
Necro which was/is a beast in spvp, is good in WvW and can do all the pve content? Does it really matter that some group going lol zerk warriors with a mes/guard can blitz some fractals or a dungeon path faster than you can?
Does it really put you off logging in knowing there is a group of zerkers out there doing CoF 1 quicker than you can?
If so, pitty those same zerkers who get stomped on in the other two major pillars of the game (W3 and spvp) in thich PVT/bunkers and condi is king.
EDIT: I didn’t mean to sound harsh there with you in particular. Just fed up with the debate so please don’t take it personally.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
While turtle dragon idea will definitevely mean the end of 5 zerker group it doesnt mean 1 or 2 zerker thief or warrior will not join a team from time to time it just mean they wont be able to run it on their own without the help of a control or a support spec to help them avoid as much damage as possible while they dps down the boss like before. This doesnt mean the end of berserker build it just mean an actualy window for party build variation.
There is a window for party build variation. You make a party and you go do the content. Quite simply really.
Oh wait no, that’s not the problem is it, some people are getting all upset because their own specific ideal isn’t perfectly optimal. Well boo $%*& hoo.
When zerker gets nerfed and the min/maxers find the new optimal speed run set up, guess what, 90% of the people kicking up a fuss about zerker now probably won’t fall into that catagory either and will kitten and moan again, just as they are now.
“What do you mean it is more optimal to have a clerics guard in the group for a speed run?!, I want to run knights AH guard, boooo I’m going to ask ANet to nerf you all, quaggan mad”.
Or something like that.
Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.
Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.
Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.
If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.
Give up, no one here wants to listen to reason. They want to get their pitchforks out and NERF ZERKER, BURN THEM!!. The devs alas, will listen to the mob.
After 13 pages I am still not seeing how any of this is a problem.
Players who play well are rewarded by being able to surrender defense for more offense.
Players who don’t play as well can still sacrifice offense to make up for their lack of ability.
Bad players, or players simply unwilling to spec to the maximum/most efficient set up are crying because those that can/will are doing some pve stuff a bit quicker than they are.
That’s about the gist of it.
When zerk is nerfed, and the players who actually bother to look for the most efficient group comp find the new meta. Said bads will simply start crying about the new meta and the cycle will repeat itself. Whilst those running said meta lose all their ascended gear no doubt.
This is getting beyond a joke now. Sadly it looks like ANet are falling for said joke.
What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?
Because that’s dumbing down the game.
That’s what people want, so long as it means that a group of people who actually bother to dodge and min/max can’t do stuff any faster then them in their “lol play however I want and still want to be teh king” builds.
but cant you create your own groups?
i mean there are people looking for berserker only.
if you dont like it why dont you simply make your own groups with your own requirements?i dont understand where the problem is.
Sure you can, but surely you don’t think speedruns should be the intended way to play a dungeon? Off course they should exist, but surely they are supposed to be for skilled players and not the norm? Isn’t there a problem when it does become the norm?
You could actually distinguish more types, like soloing. Imagine someone would figure out a way to make that fast and rewarding. And imagine that pretty much everyone starts constantly soloing dungeons and laughing at the guys that don’t. Wouldn’t that be something you’d want them to address?
Speed runs absolutely should be an intended way of doing dungeons unless you are trying to punish min/max dedicated groups who are trying to find some interest in running the same content for the 9000th time.
Get a group of non skilled zerkers or zerks in a mixed comp group and see how effectively they speed run. The fact of the matter is that no, perfect zerk groups blitzing content is not the norm.
Dungeons are often solo’d as a challenge, or at least boss mobs within them are. I’m rubbish compared to the people posting youtube pwn videos and even i’ve managed it (as zerk and non zerk). Does that mean the specific solo set ups used should be nerfed as well because I couldn’t do it with a totally random build?
The problem here is 90% perception. “Omg everyone else is in zerkers and clearing content 20x faster than me like those guys on youtube and as such I wont bother doing anything and instead moan on the forums”.
I think you guys are neglecting the cumulative effect of heals and boons, as well as basic cooperation and that there is more active defense than just dodging.
Though I classify a lot of heals and boons as active defense, a big difference with heals is that they are finite in the damage that they mitigate. This limited effectiveness is aided by 3 additional factors:
Higher health (healing capacitance)
Higher toughness + protection/weakness (heal efficiency)
Additional heals from party membersThe third is the most important one. Without the additional healing of extra party members, the limited damage removal from heals isn’t sufficient. It is for this reason that, in dungeon pug runs and group events, Soldiers and Clerics go down all the time, even when paired with each other. When the players split and range at a distance, they cut each other off from their heals, and this causes them to go down. Or, if they don’t properly time their heals or boon application, damage received overwhelms them and they die. When paired with non-healing members, they also suffer from this issue.
So, while the ability to facetank damage and heal it away only works when done collectively, the mitigation from non-healing active defenses works individually and regardless of group composition. This makes the former a special circumstance, and the latter the norm.
A really crappy facetank team who can’t stack and runs about like headless chickens and can’t sync heal does badly? Well I never. Oddly enough a really bad dps team which runs about, tries to range and doesn’t sync it’s skills also dies on it’s backside.
Oddly enough though, that facetank team has the abilty to decide to actively dodge/mitigate damage if things go pear shaped. Does a dps team have the option to perma face tank if they muck up their dps/dodges? Nope.
It isn’t the only build. It is the go to build for those players and groups capable of using it.
Exactly, it’s the build to go for capable people. There should be a variety of equal “top tier” stat sets, not just one.
There will always be an optimal build/group comp that top trumps all others when used by a dedicated group within specific aspects of the game.
Is that so?
Okay, possibly there might always be one build/group composition that is more efficient than one, simply because it would be hard to balance everything so precisely.
Mind you – that is not a certainty. There’s at least one way to avoid this – by setting more than one goal. It would be possible to make it so that, for example the “fastest speed clear” build/group composition would be totally different than the “long time farming” group composition, simply because the fastest group builds would be running immense risks even at the top skill, while the longer clears builds would be more efficient longterm due to consistency.
But let’s ignore that for a moment, and assume, that you are right – that indeed there is always one build which is simply the best. We should still strive for the situation, where that build is just marginally better than the next one, and that only slightly better than the third (and so on). Any situation where one stat set just blows all others out of the water (and that is currently the case with zerker meta for PvE) however is just plainly and inexcusably bad.TL/DR: There should be a variety of equal “top tier” stat sets. And while they may not be truly equal, we should prevent the situation where one reigns supreme, completely unchallenged.
Yes, that is so.
It wouldn’t matter if there was a 0.001% difference between a group which has spent it’s time coming up with the optimal speed run group and the next best group. People would still bloody cry about it. It will never end.
The real issue is that some of the “play how I want to play” crowd has morphed into the “play how I want to play and expect it to be as optimal and efficient at everything as the dedicated min/max speed groups” crowd.
This group is also not taking into account the fact this game is meant to have three main pillars in terms of game play (pve, WvW (a pve pvp hybrid) and pvp) and the fact that zerk, is only optimal in a fraction of that overall picture. I hope those calling for nerfs because people running some pve content in speed groups faster than themselves are also looking for nerfs to pvt/bunker gear due to it’s dominance in W3 and spvp, oh wait, ofc they are not.
At the end of the day, you can clear and face roll 99% of the pve content in this game as a non zerk in a non zerk group. Such no zerk gear is also optimal in other facets of the game like W3 and spvp. However if you want to blitz certain pve content you can go zerk and roll in a dedicated speed run zerk group. And yet instead of trying to optimize for speed runs (if that is what they want to do), or simply make their own non zerk groups. People would rather have a good old cry about the fact that those who actually bother to go glass, can clear pve content faster than they can in on their clerics guard.
They should nerf PVT/Clerics already. If you can faceroll a dungeon without dodging once then something is definetly wrong.
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
hi jon,
why is there a condition cap limit? why have you limited condition builds so severely? this has made the game so UNBALANCED between pure damage and condition damage.
if you guys would remove this stupid limitation i think the game would be so much more balanced and people would consider conditions as a viable and reliable source of damage as well. just remove the 25 stack limit and the other conditions limits (some only stack 5 times in length) and let condition builds have their say in this game.
poison should be stackable too because it’s such a weak damage dealer unstacked.
make those changes and i’ll guarantee you a much more balanced meta then this currently is. do not nerf zerks just let the condition builds have a fair fighting chance!
just a few clicks and voila! people would have a real and viable alternative source of damage and build variety for groups. zerkers would look with much more interest into conditions then they currently are. zerker population will decrease naturally and not forced by any meta. some of the zerkers will transition into a more balanced build naturally. you’ll see.
thank you.
Because of the impact on pvp given the shared pve/WvW model. The condi meta is already stong in pvp, removing the cap would make it insane.
No it wouldn’t. I can’t remember a single time I’ve been near 25 stacks of anything in PVP or had a long duration burn.
Direct damage already stacks/is individual and it’s numbers are higher, why would having individual conditions be broken?
Yes, it probably would.
No cap on condi in an already condi/counter condi driven WvW/pvp meta could potentially be a major issue. Hence I offered a siggestion as to why ANet are probably loathe to simply removing it.
I gather when they remove this condi cap or otherwise nerf zerk, they are going to nerf PVT, bunkers and condi in WvW and pvp and bolster lolzerk at the same time right?
I mean, if these 100b noob speed runners killing the game are getting the shaft in pve, then they are going to get major buffs in pvp right, instead of having to go pvt regen et al. Otherwise it’s just not cricket is it.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
Because of the impact on pvp given the shared pve/WvW model. The condi meta is already stong in pvp, removing the cap would make it insane.
i don’t agree. so it’s ok for you (probably you run zerk) to have no limitation on damage but have limitations on condition damage. i mean it’s like warriors are ok to fight with 2 hands but condition ppl should have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs.
nice.
You do realise condi and trying to defend against or hard counter it is far more meta in WvW/pvp then direct damage lol zerk warriors et al for the main?
If you simply remove the cap in order to increase condi damage in pve, then you make a significant impact upon WvW. That is the case, whether you agree with it or not, and as such it is highly likely one of the reasons why they haven’t done it.
If you really think it should be scrapped and that it will have no impact at all on pvp/WvW then maybe go on the WvW/pvp forums and suggest to them that you think the cap should be scrapped so that you can do more damage in pve. See what they think about it.
And yes, I run zerk for pve and other, more optimal (for me at least) builds for WvW/pvp. I guess trying to suggest to you why they haven’t removed the cap due to the ties between pve and WvW is totally invalidated because I happen to have a mean old zerker for pve play.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
hi jon,
why is there a condition cap limit? why have you limited condition builds so severely? this has made the game so UNBALANCED between pure damage and condition damage.
if you guys would remove this stupid limitation i think the game would be so much more balanced and people would consider conditions as a viable and reliable source of damage as well. just remove the 25 stack limit and the other conditions limits (some only stack 5 times in length) and let condition builds have their say in this game.
poison should be stackable too because it’s such a weak damage dealer unstacked.
make those changes and i’ll guarantee you a much more balanced meta then this currently is. do not nerf zerks just let the condition builds have a fair fighting chance!
just a few clicks and voila! people would have a real and viable alternative source of damage and build variety for groups. zerkers would look with much more interest into conditions then they currently are. zerker population will decrease naturally and not forced by any meta. some of the zerkers will transition into a more balanced build naturally. you’ll see.
thank you.
Because of the impact on pvp given the shared pve/WvW model. The condi meta is already stong in pvp, removing the cap would make it insane.
It’s the faster thing that is really upsetting some people it seems. They just cannot stand the fact that people who bother to optimize for speed can clear content and thus get shinies a bit faster then them, when they themselves can’t be bothered to optimize for a speed run.
They can do the content with their builds, they can do it easily. They want to be able to do it as quickly as a perfectly optimized speed run group without having to bother to optimize in the first place.
Ideally they want to be able to speed run as fast as optimal groups when using their PVT tank builds so when they port into WvW they don’t have to change out of their gear/builds and they can still be in the dominant zerg meta (tanky PVT).
It’s about cake and eating it.
Can I ask you… are you serious? Tank/heal are actually more challenging than zerk by far because you don’t have the damage to take down an enemy and you have greater risk of actually dying because you lack damage.
4-letter word: L.A.M.E.
No, tank/heal is not challenging.
Furthermore, why is it okay that stuff like PVT/tank/regen is dominant in WvW (being the go to for the zerg), useful in spvp and also strong in PVE?
It is far stronger across the board when you consider all facets of the game, and somebody needs to think of the children and nerf it to the ground for the good of the future generations.
It isn’t the only build. It is the go to build for those players and groups capable of using it.
Exactly, it’s the build to go for capable people. There should be a variety of equal “top tier” stat sets, not just one.
There will always be an optimal build/group comp that top trumps all others when used by a dedicated group within specific aspects of the game.
Many of those people moaning about zerk at the moment will simply moan about the new optimal set up. Even if the group comp contains a tank, healer and dps, people will moan because it is not their specific tank spec, or their specific healer spec, or their specific dps spec.
“OMG the fastest group needs a clerics guard and I’m an AH guard, it’s just not fair, nerf clerics!”
In short people will always moan that others are clearing content quicker then them due to the fact that those others have min/maxed whilst they stick to their own non optimal set up.
It doesn’t seem to cross peoples minds that if they want to be be “teh speed run” then they need to spec for the optimal build. Or if they don’t care about speed running, then it also doesn’t seem to cross their mind that they can simply form a non zerk group and get on with the content without worrying about the fact a gear ping group is clearing it a bit faster.
If there is the scenario that you simply cannot do certain content with a non zerk group (and it is not down to a lack of skill), well then the devs need to address said content and/or buff other sets. A nerf to zerk won’t do anyone any good.
The interesting thing is that in order to change the meta a large proportion of people keep banging on about nerfing zerker, instead of looking at ways of boosting the other builds. Which tells you something about their mind set really.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
Just throwing this in here again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM
Whoever argues against the “berserker meta”, is that what you want the game to become? Add some random dodges in and you are invicible, that would make you able to play content blind with one hand, easily. Is that what you want as new meta in gw2, instead of actually a bit of positioning, dodging and supporting?
I get the impression that a lot of the people moaning about zerker don’t really care about what becomes of the meta/game after a zerk nerf, they simply want those people doing well in zerk to get the shaft.
So as long as people using zerk to clear stuff faster then them get hit with the nerf bat, they will be happy as pigs in muck.