Guild Wars 2

Casia.4281:

so what did we learn from that?

1. mortar hits harder then rifle.
2. mortar attacks faster then grenades.
3. grenades are just as easy to miss with, as mortar.
4. grenades are the superior melee weapon, due to stacking more procs per attack. Also, lets add the several crit in melee range traits.
5. mortar needs its explosion tag correctly.
6. mortar is a combo beast.
7. mortar is the 1500 range option. and thus superior ranged option.

Grenades. short-medium. High dps, high conditions.
Bombs. no range. high dps. high combos.
Mortar. Long-short range. medium dps. high combos.
Rifle. medium-point blank. staple dps. jumpshot. cc.
Pistol. short-point blank.. BURN THEM ALL.
flamethrower. -ft2, ft4, swap back out.
elixir gun. … acid bath. underwater has to have something right?
tk. point blank. cc. cc. burst damage.

is this is hard?

Mortar fires as fast as rifle without the “skilled marksman” trait and it’s damage almost identical. Thus, the only real reason to ever use it is if you are needing to strike multiple foes at once, shooting someone on a wall and you can’t use grenades for some reason, or you absolutely need to hit something at range greater than 1000. otherwise, you are going to do more damage by taking “skilled marksman,” putting down the poison field from mortar, and shooting through the poison field with rifle.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Here, you go. I made some visual evidence of the sub-par damage of Mortar #1, in comparison with rifle and grenade #1 on mobs in silverwatstes. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVRqEh_J4jk

wish your combat log was open..

drop gunk is ethereal field. hell I didnt even notice that before. Mortar is even better than I thought. you ran OUT of it. why would you even do that?

716-869 mortar. vul stacks of course mess things up a bit. vs scaled drake.
:09-:21 15 shots in12s. .8s/a

Rifle. vs arid devourer.
628-786
1:18-1:26. 10 shots in 8s. also clocking in at .8s/a

Mortar. vs arid dev #2.
missed alot. 755-806. small sample.
1:34-1:45 14 shots in 11s .78s/a.
Mortar. vs arid dev #3.
822-831
1:48-1:56

Grenades. vs arid dev.
lots of misses again. 335-382 hard to read. so many crits, and overlapping numbers. pls combat log.
2:05-2:16 11 attacks in 11s. 1a/s

you have explosive powder giving 10% damage to grenades. Mod ammo giving all sorts of damage based on any given value. vul, bleeds, etc…
if you USED your combo fields, your mortar would be getting 2% from the poison, blind, confuse, bleed, etc each..
Glass cannon should be hitting them all, as well as excessive energy.

Grenades. vs arid dev2
332-359.
Grenades. vs arid dev3
402-423.

Your vul stacking and traits makes it impossible to get an accurate assessment.

your rifle is clearly averaging in the 600’s per hit, mortar in the 750-800s, per hit
Nades 1000per hit. which duh, considering you have more nade traits. at least 10% from explosions.

I ran out of the field because I was trying to showcase the power damage, not the condi damage. It’s a pretty well established fact that grenades do more condi damage than mortar anyways.

The math that you provide here only seems to back up what I have been saying: that mortar’s#1 attack damage is more comparable to rifle. Although you are padding it’s damage a bit. As you can clearly see, it’s striking for pretty much the same as rifle. As for having more nade traits: I only had the baseline traits, which also apply to mortar. I also specifically avoided using skilled marksman, which when taken makes rifle better than mortar #1 against single targets within 1000 range. You can pretty clearly see what each grenade is critting for without the combat log. They are each critting for between 800 and 900 average, which amounts to 2400-2700 power damage. Mortar was critting for 1600-1800 average, which is about the same as rifle.

As far as missing a lot of the mortar attacks, that’s largely the point, you are rarely going to hit with 100% of mortar #1’s attacks, and in PvP/WvW you will be lucky to hit with 50% of them at any significant range.

Here, you go. I made some visual evidence of the sub-par damage of Mortar #1, in comparison with rifle and grenade #1 on mobs in silverwatstes. Enjoy.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

That’s all fine and dandy on paper. But I have actually been using these kits on actual mobs and players to get my information, instead of just adding numbers from tooltips (and then saying tooltips are inaccurate) or hitting some target dummy.

We aren’t talking about how mortar performs on paper, we are talking about how much damage you get from actually hitting someone with it, and how often you can actually hit them. Most people who have actually been using this kit can tell you that it never needed the nerf, and it is much weaker than grenades, only slightly stronger than rifle.

no one is talking “on paper”.
go to silver wastes, remove all traits, etc. extra gear. no parties. no other players. ideal to use the dummies. but npcs can be used if you make sure to attack the same npc over and over. and you must also then use a control weapon to figure out the npcs armor value.

attack them 1000 times. record values.

If you are saying that you got your numbers from going to the silverwastes, hitting a target dummy 3,000 times and then doing the math on it, I don’t believe you.

Casia.4281:

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

That’s all fine and dandy on paper. But I have actually been using these kits on actual mobs and players to get my information, instead of just adding numbers from tooltips (and then saying tooltips are inaccurate) or hitting some target dummy.

We aren’t talking about how mortar performs on paper, we are talking about how much damage you get from actually hitting someone with it, and how often you can actually hit them. Most people who have actually been using this kit can tell you that it never needed the nerf, and it is much weaker than grenades, only slightly stronger than rifle.

Casia.4281:

“engineers” refusing to use evidence or math.
so disappoint.

Just because you choose to ignore the evidence we have put forth doesn’t mean we didn’t provide it.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

none of this is true.

This statement must refer to everything that is about to be said and not everything that was quoted.

Tool tips cannot be both unreliable when they argue against the nerf and proof when they argue in favor of the nerf. Players actually using Mortar are seeing damage numbers and those are not unreliable. Players actually using Mortar are seeing how often these slow visible arcing lobs are avoided because there are no damage numbers. Mortar #1 does not do more damage, perhaps it theoretically could if it was auto-targeting, and auto-firing but it isn’t. Perhaps Mortar #1 could do more damage if it changed trajectory to auto-hit, like most targeted ranged attacks. Pre-nerf Mortar #1 was nothing close to OP, arguably it was even underpowered. Post-nerf Mortar #1 is mostly harmless.

I am tired of people who do not use Mortar #1 endlessly spinning a narrative that the nerf was somehow justified, just because it is irrelevant to their build or the class they actually play. I can’t help but feel that this thread, and the Engineer forum in general, is being trolled by people who secretly main other classes.

This^

I am not using the tooltips as the source of the numbers I have been speaking of. As I said here:

lorddarkflare.9186:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

I am getting my numbers from actually hitting level 80 mobs (in Silver wastes and Dungeons) with the mortar kit and the grenade kit.

Small Edit: I don’t actually use full zerker, but a mix of Zerker and assasins.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

none of this is true. you keep saying these things, with zero proof. all of which are clearly wrong.

1. before the nerf it did 10% more coeff( 1.05 or 1.1coeff, to grenades .99 all 3 hitting and combined), and 20% faster attack then grenades. .8s/a vs 1s/a.
2. now it does .8 power coeff (with a .8s/a speed), rifle 1 is .65.(with a .84s/a speed)
it does WAY more damage then rifle. It does more then grenades still… (marginally granted, so now the extra procs and vul do make grenades better as a short-mid range weapon.)
3. tooltip seems to show explosive damage buff, but actual damage is still not being effected by being an explosive.

Look, I’ll admit one thing: I don’t know what you are saying when you use terms like “coeff”, and throw around those numbers. I don’t know what they represent. I am basing my information on adding up the damage see when using both kits, something anyone else can do and come to the same conclusion. I do know one thing: comparing the speed of grenades without the grenadier trait, and the speed of mortar, the mortar projectile is in no way faster than grenades, especially at 1500 range. You don’t have to be a math wiz to see that.

Trinity.4563:

I too miss the hobo sacks on my engi. I understand that many…or most…didn’t like them and wanted to show off their shiney back pieces, and I’m cool with that. But my eng wasn’t about shiney. She was about being an eng. The sacks were part of that and now they’re gone. I spent money in the gem store buying what little eng / steampunk stuff was available and now a large part of my character’s ‘character’ is gone. Had the skins been made available for my back items, all would still be well, but instead…white wings… =(

As for the Universal multitool pack..I have it, and its not the same. “Cool” is subjective. I don’t begrudge anyone the right to show off their flashy wings or whatever. I just want my engi to look like an engi again.

How does the multi-tool pack not fulfill that? It looks the same as the old hobo-sack, it even has the hobo-esque patchwork craftsmanship and red rag that serves no foreseeable purpose.

For reference:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

If you are some oddball that liked the look of the hobosacks, well no fear! There is a backpiece for you! Remember the old backpiece you had an option to get just from creating an engineer? The Universal Multi-Tool pack is here to rescue you from ever looking cool! Yes with this old backpiece that no one used, you too can impress your hipster friends with how “ironic” your unpopular backpiece is!

Create a level 1 engineer today to get your Universal Mulit-Tool pack!

Seriously, all you people that complain that you liked the hobosack, how do you forget that this exists?

Also:

…Anet can’t just knee jerk “fix” that one like they did with hobosacks….

Um….. what!?

“Knee jerk fix!?” It took us 3 flipping years to get them to remove the hobosack, that is as far from a “knee jerk fix” as you can get!

Boreal.9826:

choovanski.5462:

im just so suprised. i really didn’t see it coming. guess 2-3k autos were too much. wonder when life blast will be nerfed.

C’mon, I also play Necro and this is a ridiculous comparison. Mortar 1 is much, much easier to land than life blast. 1500 vs 900 range, 5 target AoE vs piercing, you can sit on Mortar all day vs DS a finite resource, both comparatively slow projectiles.

As a full zerker engie, I enjoyed Mortar 1 as much as the next guy, but anyone who didn’t see a nerf coming was blind. When you heard that many Mortar rounds and saw that many Orbital Strikes going off in WvW, it was logical to expect some balancing.

Mortar is still strong but not OP. Right where it should be, IMHO.

Mortar wasn’t OP before. You saw that many people using it because it is brand new, and every single engie is trying it out, also because it’s our only long range weapon now

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

1. no. its too strong at that.
.

How do people keep believing this? How did they ever believe it? Before the nerf it had THE SAME BASE DAMAGE AS GRENADE #1 but it also is only a single attack, so it procks a single crit strike and thus applies far fewer conditions than greanade #1, so it did less damage than grenade #1 even before the nerf. Add to the fact that its as slow as the old grenade kit, but a much more obvious and easily dodgable/sidestepable attack and you can see that it was most definately not overpowered.

no it didn’t.

It currently has either a .8 or .75 coeff, with a .8 a/s.
Giving it either a 1, or .93 effective coeff.

Grenades have a .33 × 3 on a 1 a/s speed.
a .99 effective coeff.

everyone seems to be ignoring it was 20% FASTER attack then grenades with an either 1.05 or 1.1 coeff. (if the 28% was correct) giving it an effective 1.3 coeff, or 1.37 coeff.

Bombkit 1 is 1.25coeff, at .84a/s. giving an effective 1.48.

it was closer to BOMBS then it was grenades.

no one has produced a single shred of math to prove otherwise.
Maybe the “-28%” was even wrong.
what was the coeff EXACTLY?
do you even know? Do any of you complaining know what it was?

What are you talking about? Have you actually used the mortar kit? There is no way it’s 20% faster than grenades, even grenades without the grenafier trait. Before the patch it had about 900 base damage in full zerker gear, which is the same as grenades when you add up the damage from all three grenades. And that is not counting all the damage from the conditions that grenades puts out, which mortar can I only apply a 3rd of.

Break out your stop watch. come back.

I’m not at home right now. Besides, you are ignoring the fact that you are not going to be able to hit a person at range with 100% of your mortar attacks, you will be lucky if you can hit them with half of them.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

1. no. its too strong at that.
.

How do people keep believing this? How did they ever believe it? Before the nerf it had THE SAME BASE DAMAGE AS GRENADE #1 but it also is only a single attack, so it procks a single crit strike and thus applies far fewer conditions than greanade #1, so it did less damage than grenade #1 even before the nerf. Add to the fact that its as slow as the old grenade kit, but a much more obvious and easily dodgable/sidestepable attack and you can see that it was most definately not overpowered.

no it didn’t.

It currently has either a .8 or .75 coeff, with a .8 a/s.
Giving it either a 1, or .93 effective coeff.

Grenades have a .33 × 3 on a 1 a/s speed.
a .99 effective coeff.

everyone seems to be ignoring it was 20% FASTER attack then grenades with an either 1.05 or 1.1 coeff. (if the 28% was correct) giving it an effective 1.3 coeff, or 1.37 coeff.

Bombkit 1 is 1.25coeff, at .84a/s. giving an effective 1.48.

it was closer to BOMBS then it was grenades.

no one has produced a single shred of math to prove otherwise.
Maybe the “-28%” was even wrong.
what was the coeff EXACTLY?
do you even know? Do any of you complaining know what it was?

What are you talking about? Have you actually used the mortar kit? There is no way it’s 20% faster than grenades, even grenades without the grenafier trait. Before the patch it had about 900 base damage in full zerker gear, which is the same as grenades when you add up the damage from all three grenades. And that is not counting all the damage from the conditions that grenades puts out, which mortar can I only apply a 3rd of.

Casia.4281:

1. no. its too strong at that.
.

How do people keep believing this? How did they ever believe it? Before the nerf it had THE SAME BASE DAMAGE AS GRENADE #1 but it also is only a single attack, so it procks a single crit strike and thus applies far fewer conditions than greanade #1, so it did less damage than grenade #1 even before the nerf. Add to the fact that its as slow as the old grenade kit, but a much more obvious and easily dodgable/sidestepable attack and you can see that it was most definately not overpowered.

The terrible thing is that every time they see an engineer using the mortar kit, they are going to use it as justification for this nerf; “See, plenty of engineers are using it and they are doing just fine!”

No, we are using it because it’s literaly our only long range option now!

All in the title.

With the way condi’s are right now, plus the sheer tankyness they have always had, they have ruined PvP for me.

Continued:

Phineas Poe.3018:

We have been asking for an elite kit since the game came out; a lot of us love the functionality of kits, and found the Supply Crate kind of lacking. Before the patch the Mortar Kit was completely outclassed by the Grenade Kit, by both range and damage. It felt kind of stupid that an elite skill should feel weaker than a utility skill. And while the Grenade Kit still does more damage than the Mortar Kit, it has enhanced functionality (in ways I’ve already established) that warrant its slot on your bar over other elites, an does so from a range that the Grenade Kit can’t compete with.

Once again, I agree, to an extent. Mortar isn’t completely useless. But, because they nerfed the range of grenade kit, and the damage and range of rifle (even though rifle never really was a viable option for DPS at range) That is the only reason. And this recent nerf to mortar has only served to further lessen our effectiveness at range beyond 900. I am at a loss in trying to understand how you believe these nerfes have brought more diversity to our builds. They have only served to further force us into grenade kit.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Tuesday’s patch has addressed a lot of complaints and concerns we have had as a community since August 2012: they gave us back the old Juggernaut, they fixed hobo sacks, they brought the Grenade Kit in line, and they’ve buffed Mortar Kit. It’s a collective bundle of changes, but they weren’t all made in relationship to one another. The Flamethrower has been buffed and nerfed over the past three years completely independent of Grenade Kit changes; you really have to try and see the Mortar Kit similarly.

Yes, TUESDAY’S PATCH did all of that. I was very happy with tuesday’s patch. But that is not what this thread is about. It’s about the nerf to mortar kit they put out yesterday.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think most engineers should be happy where we are at, but again, I think it comes down to lack of exposure for newer engineers to builds beyond the Grenade Kit and poor understanding of deeper mechanics that go into the engineer’s design.

I am by no means a new engineer. I have been playing engineer as my main since launch. I have felt the same way you have about us being forced into grenades so heavily, and I have xperimented with other options for 3 years at various times and levels of success. And that is why l am very unhappy about the nerf to mortar #1’s damage.

Phineas Poe.3018:

We have the most combo fields of any class in the game, and the Mortar Kit is intended to better push that design to the forefront of how the class is played. Figure it out or don’t. I hear mesmers are looking to become the new flavor of the month.

This last part serves no constructive purpose it’s simply divisive.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Gern.2978:

If they never intended for mortar to be a damage kit, but instead a support/utility kit, then they should not have reduced grenades to 900 range, and removed our “rifled barrels” trait, thus reducing rifle to 1000 range (not that rifle’s AA was ever really competative for damage anyways.) No matter what logic is used to justify this change, it amounts to a huge unnecessary nerf to engineers at ranges beyond 900.

You say this like all of these changes were made in relationship to one another, but truthfully the changes made to the Grenade Kit and Mortar Kit were done for different, nearly unrelated reasons.

The Grenade Kit needed to be scaled back. Anyone who has been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch has felt the crushing weight of the Grenade Kit.

No, dont confuse issues. We needed another option other than just grenade kit. Grenade kit didn’t need “scaled back.” That would, and did, only result in a nerf to our DPS (in the case of the changes they ultimately went with, this nerf is to our damage beyond 900 distance, and it’s a big one.)

Phineas Poe.3018:

It offered for a long time both the best damage and the best range, basically crippling build diversity in every facet of the game. PvE? Grenade Kit. PvP? Grenade Kit. WvW? Grenade Kit.

You say that as if anything has changed? It did, for two days. But now the only change is that we do sub-par damage beyond 900 distance.

Phineas Poe.3018:

When you looked over all the utility skills engineer had, and knew that none of them matched the Grenade Kit, especially back then when spamming #1 was seriously carpal tunnel-inducing, it was very disheartening.

Here we agree. And the mortar kit was a good answer to this problem, until yesterday.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Even though there are guys like Teldo, Koroshi, and Rozbuska that have put out Bomb Kit builds in the past, the Grenade Kit has always been generally accepted as the best option out there.

And it still is. It always will be as long as things stay as they are right now.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The only thing I could put together that ever came close to it in functionality was the FT/EG combo, which was rendered useless after Juggernaut and Kit Refinement were nerfed back in 2012. And even despite these nerfs I still did what I could to maintain it because I despised the Grenade Kit’s play style and its crushing weight on build diversity. I thought by maintaining FT builds I could establish the lack of diversity we have as a class. In the end I was wrong, but Tuesday’s patch brings a bit of hope for me and a lot of veteran engineers.

You are correct, it did. But then they crushed that hope with the mortar nerf.

Phineas Poe.3018:

With the overhaul of conditions, where confusion and burning actually dish out a lot more damage reliably, we have lessened dependency on the Grenade Kit for PvP and WvW, and with its 900 range outperformed by the Rifle, it no longer has the farthest range either.

Um, in no way has rifle been given any kind of a buff to make it a replacement for the grenade kit. In fact, they nerfed rifle by removing the traits that increased it’s range and damage.

Now the Grenade Kit is balanced in line with other kits..
…Kit selection has truthfully never been more balanced, and part of that comes in the form of Mortar Kit.

I…what? I can’t even wrap my mind around the mental gymnasitcs that have brought you to this conclusion. How does nerfing other kits and weapons, that already under-performed when compared to grenade kit, make them more of a viable option than grenade kit? The changes have done the opposite of this. Grenade is more our best option than ever. And that is sad.

I have to make this a 2 parter response, due to limited message length.

If they never intended for mortar to be a damage kit, but instead a support/utility kit, then they should not have reduced grenades to 900 range, and removed our “rifled barrels” trait, thus reducing rifle to 1000 range (not that rifle’s AA was ever really competative for damage anyways.) No matter what logic is used to justify this change, it amounts to a huge unnecessary nerf to engineers at ranges beyond 900.

Arioso.8519:

Here’s an idea, what if we gave the mortar the same treatment Mesmers and Rangers get: Damage increase at max range?

So the point blank mortar would do around 60% it’s current damage at point blank (So it’d ONLY be useful for fields at that range, but it’s still handy to blast those within range of yourself) and around its previous damage if you max the range out? (Which would further be balanced by the fact that it’s easy to avoid at that range)

Bam, Engineers have an effective longrange tool, it’s enforced as a long range tool and doesn’t step on bombs or grenades as the shorter range options.

I 100% support this suggestion. Unfortunately the devs won’t, because they have made it ubundantly clear that they don’t want engineer to have competitive damage at any range beyond 900.

Josh Davis.6015:

Gern.2978:

I want to know how much the #1 attack hits for. That is the deciding factor of whether this is a good kit or not. If the #1 attack hits like a wet noodle, then this kit will be next to useless for a power build.

According to napkin math, mortar #1 hits about 47% harder than rifle 1.

You promised me Josh Davis, you promised me, got my hopes up, and then dashed them to pieces. I don’t think I can trust the devs anymore.

Here’s how I imagine the scenario went:

A dev was playing a ranger in WvW, shooting at a zerg from on top of a wall as the zerg was attempting to take a keep.

Ranger Dev: “Oh, look a thief, I’m gonna put pressure on him from max range so I can pop my RF on him before he goes into stealth.”

• doesn’t notice the incoming mortar shells because he’s to engrossed with all his max range pew pewing *

Ranger Dev: “What?! What is this?! What downed me?!!! ……An engi mortar? THIS CANNOT STAND!!!! None but Rangers are allowed to do decent damage at 1500 range!”

• mortar auto-attack damage reduced by 28% *

Phineas Poe.3018:

It has three of the four best combo fields in the game and people are crying that it’s useless because you can’t AFK from 1500 range anymore.

This is why ArenaNet doesn’t comment on these forums.

Those combo fields are ok, not great, and certainly not the best in the game, just ok. And, since they nerfed grenade range down to 900, and rifle down to 1000, that auto-attack is our only long range option. It already did less damage than grenade AA, because it’s a single attack instead if three, and thus doesn’t apply as many conditions. So right off the bat with the implementation of all the kit changes we had a significant DPS nerf to our long range attacks, and now it just got another significant nerf. It’s crap, and was completely unnecessary.

I get the feeling you don’t play engi, because we never could afk from 1500 range.

Toeofdoom.6152:

Testing this in silverwastes I regularly just ditched actual rotations for mortar 1 spam because it hit so hard… It was a bit too good! With the fixes people are discussing (projectile finisher, damage trait) it still seems like it will be fine.

You know it hit for exactly the same amount of damage as the grenade AA right? Except that it is only a single attack, which means only one crit proc, and less conditions applied, so it still hit for less than grenade AA even before the nerf. This nerf was completely unnecessary, and only served to further nerf engineers at range.

I am extremely upset about this nerf. It was unnecessary, and ruined mortar kit.

Pride.1734:

Gern.2978:

Pride.1734:

Can anyone link me to the nerfs?

There was literally only one, the mortar 28% nerf.

Still. There weare narfs to other classes as well and i would like to check out all of them.

I don’t use the term “literally” improperly:

“Engineer
Shrapnel: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait from functioning properly with all of the Elite Mortar Kit skills.
Streamlined Kits: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait’s recharge from triggering properly when equipping Elite Mortar Kit.
Mortar Shot: Reduced the damage by 28%.
Automated Medical Response: This trait now correctly recharges Med Kit’s Bandage Self skill.

Guardian
Inner Fire: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to trigger only at 3 stacks instead of 3 or more stacks.
Mesmer
Chaotic Dampening: Reduced the recharge reduction percent of staff skills per pulse of chaos armor from 5% to 2%.
Power Block: Reduced the damage on interrupt by 17%.

Necromancer
Vampiric Presence: Fixed this trait to use the necromancer as the source of the life steal.

Ranger
Quick Draw: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait from working properly with Swoop.
Two-Handed Training: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait from working properly with Swoop.
Water Spirit—Aqua Surge: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.
Sun Spirit—Solar Flare: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.
Stone Spirit—Quicksand: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.
Frost Spirit—Cold Snap: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.
Storm Spirit—Call Lightning: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.
Spirit of Nature—Nature’s Renewal: Fixed a bug that prevented this skill from properly recharging when used.

Thief
Hidden Thief: This trait now applies 3 seconds of stealth rather than firing blinding powder"

Here is the link, scroll to the bottom.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-23-2015/first#post5206468

Pride.1734:

Can anyone link me to the nerfs?

There was literally only one, the mortar 28% nerf.

BlackBeard.2873:

It is a 100% projectile finisher…It isn’t meant to be doing damage.

See: ele staff earth auto-attack.

Use it for what it is meant for: stacking chills (ice), poison (poison), and removing condis (light). Also, poke damage from forever away.

If you want damage, use nades. They are super-duper strong now.

Completely not true. They nerfed grenade range because mortar kit is supposed to be our long range weapon now. How can mortar be our long range weapon if it’s not supposed to do damage?

Sarmach.1547:

Gern.2978:

There was zero reason for this nerf, and all they have done is make mortar kit useless again. The only reason to even take mortar kit now is for orbital strike, unless I absolutely have to hit a stationary target from 1500 range…..

I primarily play WvW and use mortar kit quite often when not in the middle of a zerg mosh pit. It is good long range pressure, arcs over walls to clear siege/suppress and provides party support. Before the mortar kit the end-all-be-all elite for engi was supply crate so it is refreshing to have some change. Also, hitting moving targets with slow projectiles should not be something new for PvP engis because we had to lead targets before with the old grenades.

None of that justifies the nerf.

OMGimAnoobLOLOL.4730:

Kodama.6453:

Range shouldn’t be an argument here, rangers got long bow range 1500 too and it is outdamaging mortar kit a lot, and it has a high burst skill like rapid fire on it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want the same damage for mortar kit like the rangers with their long bows. I just want 1 viable long range AA, is that really too much to ask for?

Ranger longbow is in the 2250-2300 ballpark. Zerk Mortar also was stronger and I’m pretty sure faster.

Faster? Lol, no. Neither was it stronger, plus it can be dodged/ avoided much more easily than Ranger LB AA, especially since you don’t actually need to dodge it, but rather just step out of the AOE field.

But even if it was stronger, or faster than Ranger LB, who cares? Why must no other ranged weapon be stronger, or as strong as ranger longbow?

I am just heartbroken about this.

This has me very upset. I am not pleased with you right now A-net, not pleased at all.

Sarmach.1547:

The mortar has no cooldown to use so having such a long range, high damage, high rate of fire ability was too strong.

No, it wasn’t.

The mortar still has a faster rate of fire than the grenades…

Um? On what planet? Without the grenadier trait maybe, but who is going to use grenades without the grenadier trait?

…and you only have to hit the target with one projectile to get the full damage.

Which is 200 damage lower than the grande AA. Seriously, who has trouble hitting a target with all their grenades? Especially with the grenadier trait?!

Sarmach.1547:

Some have said mortar arc and projectile speed make it easy to be dodged. How many classes can sustain dps while having to dodge every 1/2 second due to the mortar’s rate of fire?

Just because you can’t dodge 100% of every attack, doesn’t make that attack overpowered.

There was zero reason for this nerf, and all they have done is make mortar kit useless again. The only reason to even take mortar kit now is for orbital strike, unless I absolutely have to hit a stationary target from 1500 range…..

Xyonon.3987:

You ruined it already again. Congratz T_T

Sums it up perfectly.

“Mortar Shot: Reduced the damage by 28%.”

What the crap A-net! Why? It did not need a nerf. Now there is no reason to use mortar kit at all. The only reason I will even have it equipped is for Orbital strike, and the rare need for 1500 range against a near stationary target.

With how crazy conditions are right now, has sinister replaced zerker for the meta? At least for classes like engi’s, thieves, and others with good condi damage. Is it worth the effort to craft a set of sinister gear?

Phineas Poe.3018:

You have always required the Grenadier trait to get the effect. It would be nice for them to fix it, but this isn’t a change.

Oh, I didn’t know that. I guess I never noticed because grenadier was pretty much required for engineers using grenade kit. But yeah, they need to make this work without the grenadier trait.

I can’t decide which is better in dungeons.

I don’t have grenadier equipped. Still has the old, non-legendary visual.

Edit: I misunderstood you. I have to have grenadier equiped to get the legendary visual for grenade barrage.

Still, they need to fix it so I get the legendary visual even without the grenadier trait.

Honestly, I kind of like the look of mortar kit, am I a terrible person?

It looks to me like the old grenade launchers from the Vietnam war.

… Greande barrage while I have “The Predator” equipped. The Predator used to change my boring grenade barrage into a swarm of loudly buzzing fireballs, but with this patch that was removed. Now, even with The Predator equipped, my grenade barrage is just the normal boring looking grenade barrage. Why? That legendary effect was cool, and was one of my favorite things about the predator.

All in the title. Please give us legendary auras while using kits. We have been asking for this as long as we have been asking for the removal of the hobosack, and I think most of us hoped it would be implemented along with the hobosack removal. But sadly it has not.

Oh, and stowing our weapons so we can still see them while using kits, instead of making them disapear, would also be very awesome.

Holy crap, calm down guys. These visuals are obviously placeholders. They got the mechanics of the new mortar kit down and slapped a placeholder skin on it so we could play with it along with our new kits.

I don’t care how bad any of the new kits look, they don’t look even half as bad as the old hobosack. I am happy. Thanks A net! It took you way too long to implement this (3 flipping years) but late is better than never! Thank you.

This makes me very upset. This should be baseline, as they said it was going to be in the first specializations live stream.

Crysto.7089:

Now, if you wanted to frame the discussion by saying specifically that when we talk about raids in the context of this thread, raids refer to X… that’s another matter.

That is exactly what I am taking about, I made that as clear as I can. You are trying to confuse my question by splitting hairs on the basis of your definition of what a raid is.

The question is: Would you do raids as I described them.

So, I have posed the suggestion to implement raids on other sub-forums. But it always gets poo-pooed away by people with the excuse of either “no one would do them cause they would be too hard” or “no one would do them because they would complain that they are too easy, like dungeons” or “just do Teq or 3 headed jungle wurm, that’s a raid.”

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people. They typically have scalable difficulty, and challenging fight mechanics that require communication and coordination of everyone involved. And once again: They are instanced, people can’t just walk into the encounter at any time, or walk out at any time, or just spam auto-attack and get their loot. Everyone involved has a role to play and specific mechanics they must obey or the whole group fails.

Now, the real question: If they implemented raids, with a group size of 10 or 20 people, with scaling difficulty similar to Fractals, and fight mechanics that are as fun and challenging, would you do such raids?

choban.9027:

Gern.2978:

That’s open world content, of course people are going to complain that it’s too hard.

A better example to look at is level 50 fractals. Those are very challenging, but lots of people still do them (myself included), have lots of fun doing them, and don’t complain that they are too hard. And it is that crowed that would do raids.

Yep, but fractals are not raids. I was trying to say that ppl wanted (or at least they think they wanted) large scale (raid-like) hard and demanding epic fights, but in reality most players will avoid that because of high level of coordination is needed to complete those fights…

You are saying that because of fights like Teq, you can’t compare raid fights to open world boss fights, they are not the same, and they do not draw the same crowed.

I know that fractals are not raids……
I said I want raids that are like Fractals. That would mean instanced, scaleable dungeon-type encounters with mechanics that require communication and coordination, with a group requirement of at least 10 people. I know that all of the people who do Fractals would also do such raid instances.

Wanze.8410:

It already got reintroduced during last years battle/escape from LA updates, so i wouldnt be surprised, if they reintroduced it again.

No it wasn’t, you are thinking of the Spinal blades backpiece. I have that one, and it was unique to the LA event.

steve.2945:

choban.9027:

People always complain about lack of “hard” content in GW2, but what really annoys me is that most players in this game actually avoid hard content and stick to easy farmable dungeon paths and world bosses. Nowadays no1 ever tries to do triple wurm and before megaserver implementation you had to guest on specific server to do Tequatil.

Look at the Wildstar…they tried to listen to hardcore mmo players that wanted large scale hardcore raids, and after few months many hardcore guild just stopped trying because it was too demanding.

Don’t get me wrong, I would also like some challenging raid-like content but I am afraid that most players will skip it anyways (if actual rewards are going to be…well, meh…).

and when we get hard content, they complain that its too hard..triple trouble used to be alot harder than it was now, and people complained it was too hard. and when marionette came out, it was painstakingly tough. noone is ever happy.

That’s open world content, of course people are going to complain that it’s too hard.

A better example to look at is level 50 fractals. Those are very challenging, but lots of people still do them (myself included), have lots of fun doing them, and don’t complain that they are too hard. And it is that crowed that would do raids.