Guild Wars 2

No class needs a redesign, particularly not Guardian.
However, plenty could use various touch-ups. Here’s what I’d do for Guardian:

• Spirit Weapons live until killed. Shield’s AA and active attacks are swapped. Bow gets a nominal damaging attack.
• Add nominal healing to Staff 1
• Increase heal scaling on a few particular healing skills, like passive VoR when combined with Battle Presence and Zealous Blade.
• Nominally lower some aftercast/cast time from Hammer (2, 4, 5)
• Nominally lower some aftercast/cast time from Greatsword (4, 5)
• Give Longbow 5 current ward mechanics (affects everyone, but 10 target limit)

Condi is pretty decent, especially if the VoJ change (and the aforementioned Spirit Weapon wishes) goes game-wide. Healing is actually not that bad either, its just lacking a niche place of use. There probably some other things I’d like to touch-up, but I can’t think of them right now.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Decided to look at raw numbers as I never did check after the 40% buff to axe auto.
Axe auto: 0.79 coeff/second
Traited axe auto: 0.86 coeff/second
Sword auto: 1.07 coeff/second

Sword cleaves 3 targets and axe is a bouncing 2 target. If there are 3 targets and you pull them together with axe 4, sword auto wins by a decent amount. However, let’s look at the big picture:

Axe 4 is ~2.7 coeff/second for the dmg/cast time.
Axe 5 is ~1.7 coeff/second for the dmg/cast time.

Assumed a bit of after cast. That’s why you quick draw axe 4. It’s also why sword is power and axe is condi actually sounds kind of naive after the 40% axe auto buff. They both kind of suck compared to your burst. If you are full zerker and using the axe trait, the 250 ferocity also buffs the off-hand axe as well as main-hand axe by ~7.5%. Furthermore, if you don’t have a PS warrior stacking crazy might on you, Axe auto is 6 or 12 might on 1 or 2 targets which is another 7 or 14% buff to axe auto but also axe 4/5. More boon duration and this makes a bigger difference. Sword auto is ~2 might to your pet >_>.

Then again, full zerker druids bring marksmanship and skirmishing since they are better than beast master for damage. If you drop druid and are just open world/casual grouping, axe is (as weird as it is to say this) better than sword.

TLDR: Your friend is used to the old meta balance patches. In meta groups sword>axe auto as it does about 35% more dps. It used to be 56%. While it’s only a small portion of your overall DPS rotation, it’s still important for meta comps.

In casual stuff, axe (especially if you have a bit of boon duration) is probably better than sword as it comes with 14-21% (or more with boon duration) bonus damage to itself and your heavy hitters which makes that 35% auto difference insignificant.

I like posts like this.

Azukas.1426:

Tgis,is the problem with inevitable outcomes of new expansions

1. The new class will be OP. This is by design to move boxes.

2. The expansion class will eventually be nerfed down to earth.

What you are experiencing is the natural order of things and the truth is the class is perfectly fine and not surpassed yet

[Multiple Citations Needed]

Balance changes, and it changes to keep the game alive. Everything else is rhetoric.

Obtena.7952:

People would complain

That’s about all that really needs to be said.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

try this

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Symbolic

but then use the menders amulet version.

The supportive version of the Symbolic Guardian is probably the best definition of bruiser so far. A Burn build would probably be second.

Yes, but not on my Necro.

Test it under different conditions to see if its a universal problem or unique to Perplexity.

I tried a non-optimal condi ele against the golem and I got to around 22k dps with realistic buffs. With actual optimal gear I would expect at least 25k dps which is acceptable for raiding.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJBLhFyxgyG23ArHQHxiAg5mant12hYwOoIEEAKAHAA-TxhHQBA4BAQO9AaUJI9U/pc7PUrTAABV+RKAIWWB-e
I think that is what you would want to aim for. Swapping between Fire and Earth after overload is optimal, only use elite in Fire, etc.

I think by now you have a good representation of PvE, WvW, and PvP.

If you aren’t in the tank group and everyone is stacked, then there’s no guarantee the tank will benefit. However, if you’re the tank, then there’s never a need to worry. Again, in that case, I wouldn’t need or want to grant other allies extra toughness, so I’d take Stalwart Defender for more personal toughness and shield cooldowns (more healing and breakbar) or Communal Defenses for more Aegis from Protector’s Strike or Shield of Judgement. Either of those will probably benefit my allies more than an additional 150 toughness.

The 18% is mathematically more for your total healing output than WoP. You also get +300 vit which is icing as the tank. WoP would be better if you want more damage, but FoW is better at healing using those build numbers.

Its only the case if the tank has much more toughness than another party member. However, if the tank is running at bare minimum toughness (~1401) and the tank doesn’t receive SiN bonus, you can easily start running into problems where 4-5 people are running higher than the tank. Since you have clerics, you can be the tank yourself and the healer as opposed to just the healer. Taking up two roles is what would make this guardian build worthwhile over another comp. It allows for flexibility that isn’t had elsewhere. I only mention them because they aren’t quite so equivalent choices as the video explains.

And for the Force of Will point, the additional 18% healing to all of your sources will outheal the healing you get from symbols. Just by using your AA, Symbol of Faith, passive Virtue of Resolve, Healing Breeze, and Signet of Courage, you’ve about equaled your hps between using FoW and WoP. This hasn’t included any of the other sources of healing (Sigil of Water, Sanctuary, Shield of Absorption, Aegis from Pure of Heart, etc). All of those unused sources mean the 18% additional ally healing will provide more total healing capability than the additional 317 hps that you grant allies from WoP. Your personal healing from AH, aegis, and your 48% lower personal (compared to allies) heals from all other sources is easily enough to keep you alive, so you also won’t need the 244 personal WoP ticks yourself. The more healing modifiers you start adding, the more important they each become. If you had +0 healing, then maybe WoP grants higher hps, but with 30% already, the extra 18% just does that much more.

A few things:

• You mention not wanting toughness, but you still take Strength in Numbers. If you aren’t the Tank (and it sounds like you don’t intend to be) then you’re still making it likely that someone will pull aggro. Communal Defenses is suually going to be the better choice. Even if you are the tank, I’d take Stalwart Defender over SiN for the cd reduction.
• It usually isn’t worthwhile to increase Staff boons. In organized pve might will be covered by someone else, and swiftness isn’t particularly relevant. Especially considering how important you view Aegis, Pure of Heart is going to be the best choice
• Force of Will is actually more healing than Writ of Persistence. You could ultimately choose any of those three Grandmasters depending on your chose utilities. Pure of Voice will increase your Healing Breeze hps by a good amount, and shouts are still nice. Maybe if you’re running Meditations (MI and CoP with SY!) then run Writ. Otherwise, the +18% healing modifier will increase total healing more than WoP will.

With that, you could be a tank/healer for the melee group since Guardian’s heals are mainly centered around themselves (not unlike dagger Tempest). A druid or staff tempest could backline heal if necessary, but you’d have those spots covered.

Here’s a build link with the differences I mentioned:
Reworked Tank/Heal Guardian

Saiyan.1704:

If Anet initially designed the start and end engulf flame solely for application then why did they keep its initial design’s damage in line with other burn applications? It used to do 4x the amount of damages.

Only if it wasn’t cleansed. It became burstier in exchange.

Saiyan.1704:

It’s clear they’re touching up on the items that missed the burn upgrade. F1 activation is 3 stacks instead of 1. Same for Purging, Judges’s, etc. They just missed Torch’s blue flame and I don’t blame them, I did too for awhile.

There’s no proof (nor does it make sense) that they left it alone for on-burn effects.

The damage of torch 4 is the toss, both in Power and Condi. By applying burning before the toss, that skill can provide itself with any trait synergy you might have, like +7% damage or +10% crit. In that way the skill is self-contained, it lets itself become better rather than relying on something else to set-up. It’s also instant cast and aoe, so it provides a slightly different functionality than landing the toss does. The longer duration and lower stacks signifies that its meant more for application, and less for damage. It makes it more susceptible to cleansing than what shorter duration but more stacks would be. I don’t think they intend that one skill chain to apply 18 stacks of burning every 10s.

When they made the burning changes, they hit Purging Flames, JI, and Zealot’s Fire immediately, which was great. In the case of VoJ active, I think they were initially worried about 5v1 overwhelming that target with burn stacks. An almost instant 15 burns stacks from a single button press wouldn’t be fun for anyone. However, they probably found that it wasn’t the case in pvp so they gave it more functionality. I think it would work even better for Burn DH than base, but its a bit more of an incentive to use the skill.

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

I’m thinking, why should we take deadshot? With carrion we can get over 50% crit chance with radiance.

Deadshot also allows easier access to 100% burn duration, allowing you to use your sigils for cover conditions or anything else. It trades power damage for much more focused burning. And, some of that power damage is made back by the highly increased crit chance.

Look at this build for a second. Change your armor to 2317 and 2378 in combat and your health to 17245. You have 100% burn duration, can reach 100% crit chance by yourself, and your burns are at 370 a tick. Just like Marauder, you sacrifice a tiny amount of damage for tons more sustain. Deadshot was literally made for burn guardians.

Saiyan.1704:

Same goes for our Torch’s blue flame activation, that still gives a litle 1 stack of burns when it should be 3.

Zealot’s Flame applies burn once at the beginning and once at the end in a pbaoe. Zealot’s Fire is where the real damage is, which is why it has good power and burn damage. The Flame is just there to apply burn for those on-burn effects, which is also why its double the duration of the Fire. Or another way to put it, it doesn’t need to apply 9 stacks of burning alone with proper timing. 18 when used after the traited toss.

Lahmia.2193:

“Due to the name of the skill, Retreat will now only work if you are running away from an enemy.”

Sounds like some of these “Guild Wars 1 Patch Notes”: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20090401

“LOUD NOISES!”   

Even better, every legend would have an enhanced state according to that legend. Normal state would be if you were ever legend-less. It would be a way for Sword, Hammer, and Staff to stay relevant in a Mallyx build, while Mace could still fit in Power. It would also help provide more defense in Jalis, healing in Ventari, and support in Glint. Likewise, it would be able to scale to new weapons and legends. Hypothetically we get Pyre and Longbow next xpac. Now every weapon has a Pyre version of themselves, and longbow as a version for Mallyx, Ventari, Shiro, and Jalis. The base mechanics and philosophy stay the same, but each legend can make small changes that reflects the legend’s playstyle.

560 Expertise, traited Torch, and Balth runes allow you just over 100% burn duration, which means you can put your sigils to use in cover conditions. It also means just your VoJ proc burns are going to be worth cleansing even more than earlier because of how long they’ll be lasting. This allows you more opportunity for bursting someone without cleanses since they’ll have been wasted cleansing auto attacks. Both the VoJ increase and amulet let you pressure much more than before.

draxynnic.3719:

And as RabbitUp points out, we could have had a “purity of purpose” patch.

I think that’s exactly what we got.
Burn Guards will be more burny, Staff Guards will be more supportive, and Traps will still provide defense without coloring outside the lines.

I’ve though about having weapon skill variations based on legends. It’ll still end up being intense on the technical end, but it would allow for more usability.

For example. Mace is and should stay the condition weapon. Its main mechanics shouldn’t change. However, when in Shiro perhaps it scales a bit better with Power. Maybe Jalis adds a short duration aegis on Mace 3. Ventari could give a nominal heal for every blast finisher on Mace 2. Maybe Hammer could apply some Torment when in Mallyx, and heal allies that pass through the hammer bolts.

The key is that the main mechanics of the skills don’t change, they only get nominal benefits from whatever legend you’re currently using. That way you aren’t sol when big chunks of build concept aren’t supported yet.

Constantly having to duck with all this headcanon flying around.

Congratulations!

Now the next step is leaving the forums.

Ezrael.6859:

Not irrelevant.

This is the heart of the issue with this game’s balance.

When it is balanced around players like yourself and static PvE encounters which offer little challenge beyond memorising a DPS chain.

Vs the other two PvP games modes which are far more fluid, unpredictable and movement based.

Your scenario is fairly moot though. Cleansing Flame has more range than Sword or Mace autos. Scepter does have lower damage, but since its ranged it can land that damage more reliably in that case, and that’s a good, intuitive trade-off. If you have to interrupt Cleansing Flame to perform another action, you’d also have to interrupt whatever else you might be doing, so again, that’s a bit moot. I did dps comparisons because they’re more applicable to fluid situations.

Now if you use Saiyan’s argument, that Torch doesn’t offer enough defense for your needs, then that’s absolutely valid. However, you’ve got two good options that are designed to provide personal and group defense/support. The premier offensive option shouldn’t need to compete with those defensively to be useful.

They want Trogdor in pvp, and I can’t say I don’t like it.

8s burns on VoJ passive. Our auto is our burst.

otto.5684:

Do you mind elaborating in a power build how torch 5 outdps scepter AA?

I took the raw damage numbers of all weapons and their cast-times to create raw dps numbers. Then I used arbitrary numbers for stats (1k, 2k, 3k Power, 0 Condi Damage, 750, 1200, etc) and enemies (1, 3, 5) and averaged the damage out over a fight. That pit just the weapons alone against each other. Everything else either affects them all the same (and therefore is a wash), or it affects things unfairly (like RHS) and wouldn’t be a comparison of just the weapons. I did however apply Permeating Wrath only, because aoe burn application was a variable I wanted to test, particularly Sword AA vs Torch 5.

Builds might definitely change some results, but not everyone can be expected to run the same build.

otto.5684:

I did not do the math, but scepter AA on one target does better damage. Beating mace is kind of pointless considering that mace is a healing/survivability weapon and there would be no reason what so ever to run torch with it anyway.

For sPvP, it is useless in every type and/or form.

It is okay that it has no place in sPvP, but it needs to be better than where it is in PvE. Fixing it could make condi builds much better.

I did some of the Math above in the thread. Cleansing Flame is ~15% power dps than Scepter AA, but 17% below Sword. Mace is below both iirc? If you’re a hybrid or condi guardian with targets, then Cleansing Flame will out dps any AA. I think part of it is that it a) isn’t supposed to be a core skill in spvp/1v1 and b) its largely a perception issue more than anything. It gets better the more targets there are (friendly or enemy), and I can say that I’ve definitely been finding enough opportunities to use it.

I honestly think Torch performs adequately from a design perspective. It really only needs some qol adjustments, not a big redesign.

For some reason I like like the idea of big aoe burns/dots coming from a non-caster aesthetic. This isn’t the only reason by far that I like Guardian, but its a trend I’m noticing in the games I’ve been playing.

I definitely have a Guardian that fits that aesthetic though.

Can’t complain about Burn DH, but I definitely prefer Burn Guard. Radiance and Virtues are mandatory for what I need to accomplish.

Valor is pretty nice with the free toughness and Medis, but there’s always a possibility another Espec could mesh even better.

If you’re doing Raids or T3-4 Fractals, use Berserker.

For everything else, there’s Marauders.

Ezrael.6859:

It is still a bad skill.

Torch is our only off-hand that is all offensive, but it’s offense is severely lacking.
It should offer some serious damage for going all offense vs the utility, damage and defense offered by Focus and Shield.

3.25 seconds to channel the damage still results in less damage than any of the 1H auto-attack chains.

Change it to be more like Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath – 2.25s cast time, same damage but over 4 hits.
Add 4 stacks of Burning for 2s.

It beats Mace and Scepter in Power and beats Sword in Hybrid or Condi. Its no longer a dps loss unless you’re only doing power sword.

You’re arguing a point that doesn’t actually exist in GW2. Also has nothing more than tangential to do with Elementalist.

I’d go back to removing weapon swap and allow the weapons more utility as well as futher defining roles. OH Axe, for example, would be the pure mobility weapon. Mace for condi aoe, MH Sword for burst and OH Sword for personal defense over Shield’s party support. Hammer would stay the premier ranged power weapon, and staff stays melee support. Weapons would be role specific but have a lot of depth in their use. Players can then choose the weapons that give them the tools they want. Chill on OH Axe both allows you to close gaps and open them. Torment punishes kiting and chasing. Both in combination is good design. I want to expand and accentuate that.

After that, I’d want to smooth Revenant over a bit. Ventari needs to be able to move the tablet more often, many skills’ costs or cooldowns can afford to be lowered (not both). Each of the legends also need a little bit more utility. I often feel like I don’t have all the tools I need, or at least that I can get from other classes. I usually don’t want to play any of my currently 3 Revenants because of that. I want to bridge the gaps between each of the legends while accenting their strenghts a bit more than current.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Thieves rubbing hands in wait for Assassin’s Presence and Ferocious Strikes

tfw it goes to Guardian instead

Sometimes you don’t get to have everything, especially just because someone else got it

Sword+Shield is very strong against projectiles

Rifle has Net Shot on a 10s cd and Overcharged Shot on a 15s cd for 10 applications of CC per minute. Net Shot i an immobilize, and therefore ignores Stability (worth noting). Hammer has Thunderclap on a 24s cd and can Rocket Charge on every Thunderclap for a best case 7.5 CCs per minute. Shield has Magnetic Shield on a 25s cd and Static Shield on a 30s cd for a best case 6.4 CCs per minute.

Rifle also has the benefit of being a core engineer weapon, which will become more important as more elite specs are released. None of this means the rifle is perfect, but it’s certainly not as bad as the rhetoric makes it appear to be.

It is truly beautiful

So I recently watched a GDC 2013 talk on GW2 that was uploaded to youtube today, and I found some gems in the presentation. I think it would be fun to have a discussion on what GW2 used to be, its roots, and where it is now as an experience.

I still remember the profession reveal trailers and some of the reactions I had. You can still find some videos on skills that either no longer accurately represent the current implementations or that don’t exist at all. I also remember learning about charge skills, where the longer you hold down the skill the more powerful it becomes. That mechanic still exists in game (Trebuchets, Catapults, etc), but none are for profession skills. I wonder what some of those skills might look like if they were implemented in a future update.

What are some other things y’all can think of? Even better, what old things can you see inspired new design? Here’s a UI sample to have fun with.

Pakkazull.6894:

I’m not 100% sure what you’re saying exactly

Weapons are different from kits. You can still slot whichever kits you want regardless of weapon. When compared to other weapons that engineer has, Rifle fills many niches the other weapons can’t. The rest of the post is built on that inference.

Pakkazull.6894:

Ghotistyx.6942:

and you aren’t taking Elixir Gun or (often) Flamethrower for its Power damage.

Except both of those are standard for power builds due to Flame Blast and Acid Bomb…

Those kit’s designs are not built around those skills even if they have those uses.

My entire point is that Rifle isn’t useless despite the rhetoric. It certainly isn’t me that’s having confusion.

One of my favorite things in these forums is when two people go off topic by arguing semantics and pedantry then blaming the other for bringing up irrelevant topics first while a third person creates a meta post commenting on their argument by using a run-on sentence.

coro.3176:

In PvE, no one is going to say “hey. Please use Hammer instead of Rifle because you’re not doing enough damage to this mordrem”. No one cares what anyone else is using. It’s cooperative and easy. You’re only hurting yourself by playing an inferior weapon in PvE.

Funny you mention that. There are multiple kinds of PvE out there, and a few of them do care what weapon you bring. So not only do things have to be balanced for PvP and WvW, but also for Open World PvE and for High Fractals+Raids (to simplify those distinctions). Especially with High Fractals and Raids, they’re built around expectations of performing near optimally, which means the choice between using Hammer or Rifle could indeed cause drastic changes, and not just to yourself.

Additionally, I think Obtena’s placement of Engi Rifle is fair. Compared to Engi’s other weapons (there aren’t many), Rifle is the premier ranged cc weapon which also happens to have some decent physical damage. Kits aren’t weapons, but if you want to include them, then you aren’t taking Mortar or Grenade kit for their utility, you aren’t taking Bombs or Toolkitfor their range, and you aren’t taking Elixir Gun or (often) Flamethrower for its Power damage. Similarly with Flamethrower, now that I’ve mentioned it, you take FT for specific things, but not for others. Compared to other kits and weapons, FT will do certain things that no other kit or weapon will. Even Necro’s Axe fits nicely with MM builds, which also tend to play well while trying to solo things. But, that doesn’t mean Necro Axe needs to be a top choice in Raids or that MMs have to be competitive in WvW zerging.

I mean, if we truly wanted everything to be equal for everyone then we should be looking into giving thieves a healing role because they certainly don’t have the tools for it. I personally don’t think that’s a philosophy worth following, and no philosophy affects anyone’s ability.

This was never supposed to be a balance patch. I don’t know what you were expecting.

Why would developers comment on the forums when random people can put words in their mouths for them? Saves them a lot of time and effort.

Because of its design, its strongest against max targets (3-5 depending on Permeating Wrath). No doubt it’ll feel lackluster in 1v1 situations, but in group fights or chewing through mobs it shines. Likewise with allies. The cleansing is only useful to allies, but it can counter a condi bomb on its own. Allowing for some self-cleansing would help it in those lonely situations. Then again, Zealot’s Flame/Fire (with Radiant Fire) is really strong in Singles situations, so perhaps that was a conscious design decision for the two skills. Both are offensive tools, but for use in differing situations.

Aeolus.3615:

Ghotistyx.6942, a very small rectification:

“Swiftness: Movement speed increased by 33%; " its even better :]

Yes, 100% uptime is +33% movement, but even if you only have it up 75% of the time, you’re mimicking the effects of Runes of the Traveler. Getting 75% swiftness uptime is fairly trivial.

You could run something weird like this. Everytime you break a stun with “Shake it Off!” you can heal yourself for 8.5k and everyone nearby for 6k. Anytime you break a stun without “Shake it Off!”, you’re still healing yourself for 6k and everyone near you for 3k. Every 5 seconds Sigil of Water is healing you for 600 and allies for 720. In addition to all this, between Adrenal Health and Healing Signet, you have 1044hps pretty much constantly.

Pic related

As of now, Cleansing Flame deals around 15% more dps than Orb of Wrath, but about 17% less than Sword’s chain. However, Cleansing Flame applies around double the stacks per second of burning than Sword’s chain does, leading to more overall DPS when in a hybrid functionality.

Torch as a whole works really well in a hybrid build. Its has both good direct damage and burning application. Zealot’s Flame needs no design changes, just some mechanical QoL help. Cleansing Flame really only needs a tweak in its design (cleansing mechanics), but its offense is pretty good, especially when it’s in its niche.

1) Is this class another kittening buff bot?

No class is only a buff bot, and buffs are essential to most success. Guardian provides more than just useful boons to a group comp.

2) Is longbow/dragon hunter actually practical (is it good)?

DH is quite practical. Longbow is a bit less prevalent than it used to be, but its still a strong weapon.

3) Is there a way to move faster WITHOUT kittening travel runes??

Its called swiftness. 75% uptime equates to ~25% movement speed. Everyone has access to increasing their movement speed. It all comes down to how you utilize the tools given to you.

4) Just in general how is the class right now, is it in a solid spot (pve, wvw, pvp,)?

Guardian has a very strong presence in every gamemode.

I’ve been a fan of changing it to remove 3 conditions from caster and allies. Something like one condition removed on the 1st, 5th, and 10th ticks, or the 2nd, 6th, and 10th. Looking at the “conditions cleared per 10 seconds” ratio, that would make it a very strong condition clear. But other than that, its not really lacking in the damage aspect, especially not while in a hybrid build.

Azoqu.8917:

Your point? Cause that is better than it being pure trash right now.

Y’know, that’d be true,
if it were true.

Cleansing Flame definitely does not need burning per tick. It can already output 10 stacks when supported. A similar discussion is going on about Engi’s Flamethrower (of which Cleansing Flame is basically just a slightly slower version). Burn per tick when you have 10+ ticks gets out of hand real quick.