Guild Wars 2

Damage nerfing is not a solution – it’s a lazy fix and it won’t happen.

Skill is fine – troll post is troll.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

Warrior’s buffs were intended to be the ruin of the old condition meta. Before this came along the meta was " Spam conditions to win".
You need a power build. This is what a meta shift is.

B is better versus A. more players play B. After a while along comes C being better than B and players shift to C. You need to get on whatever beats C.

Also Milkzz makes a good point.

1 class getting such a buff does not equal a meta shift. MULTIPLE classes getting such a buff would be a meta shift. Just one getting it is an attempt to make that clkitten underpowered against the said meta. They need to add such a change in buff to other classes for the meta to change, but in this case such a change would be a passive meta, meaning passive would beat out against actives, something nobody wants.

But you see my friend the people in this thread have not asked for and I doubt they’d care about buffs for other professions. They just want warriors to be ruined so they can feel satisfied.

Kargath.6598:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Every one who compllains about warriors being too powerful needs to do 2 things

1) Go to the leader boards and ask top ranked what class they are playing I BET YOU ITS NOT WARRIOR

2) Play a warrior in spvp.

They won’t -requires too much effort and GUESS WHAT – they might find out they’re wrong. Although they know that already and still keep going!

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Nowhere did i see a dev saying " we overbuffed warriors, oopsie".
Also I love how you took my post that was meaningful and actually reflected the real state of the game and just spammed Warrior > all because you feel like it.
We must play a different game because in all those areas I posted and you ignored warriors are outperformed.

Just shows you and people like you are a dangerous combination of misinformed and malicious with frustrated slapped right on top.
Keep hatin’.

Qaelyn.7612:

Harper.4173:

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?

I already did, several times. You ignored all those arguments, so it seems pointless to repeat them.

The fact that there’s one class that’s better than them in a few particular areas. It’s that the overall package is overpowered.

A few particular areas? That’s literally EVERY facet of the game.
Even in the AOE department which i forgot to mention Engis and Eles outperform.
You’re doing a wonderful job of being biased against warriors – keep it up!

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Kiriakulos.1690:

Harper.4173:

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

People have ALREADY begun complaining about HS – with the patch not even live yet.
This proves one thing :

People don’t really care about the balance – if they did they would save their complaints and constructive feedback for a time AFTER the patch goes live and we get to see how ALL the changes ( not just the warrior ones) impact gameplay in both PVE and PVP.

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.
Instead of waiting to see if the game will be balanced or not they’re all over this post and other posts throwing a fit because warriors weren’t burned at the stake.
This left them dissatisfied and frustrated.

So yes – this isn’t really as much about balance as it is about some people not getting what they want and crying over and over because of it.

So people are unable to come to conclusions and infer something is bad based on personal experience and playtime? I hope that you include yourself in that set.

And besides everything, everyone- including yourself- seem to agree that HS’s passive is overpowered.
Just look at your pitiful argument that since it takes time to heal up, which makes it weak against burst damage.
Well guess what?
Healing signet has a godkitten burst heal as it’s active but no one uses it because the passive effect is overpowered and you lose it while it’s on cooldown.

Ain’t that something?

You must not be very thorough in your research.
You cannot come to a conclusion based on " experience" and infer what’s going to happen when the patch notes haven’t even been released. Not to mention the patch going live.

The devs also pointed out that they’re also going to change other things including stuff that they can’t talk about and made mention that when said information is released these changes that they’ve proposed will make more sense.

I have never agreed the passive is overpowered – I believe the skill offers a strong passive with an active that isn’t as useful. There’s a trade off.
What i’ve said is that I agree with the dev balance change – 30hp/s is a good trade-off for a more useful active.

Also – with your final paragraph you have disqualified yourself entirely – at least in my opinion.
Healing Signet was designed to be a PASSIVE HEALING SKILL. That will give warriors PASSIVE SUSTAIN.

You know – the passive sustain we’d been asking for ever since the game launched.
It was NEVER DESIGNED TO HAVE A BURST SKILL FUNCTION – and the fact that the active is that weak PROVES IT.

The whole idea was to balance the skill by having STRONG PASSIVE with a WEAK but marginally useful active.

Hopefully by using some words in upper it’ll be easier for you to follow and you’ll get it. The skill was never intended to be an ACTIVE BURST HEAL – we already have those – look up HEALING SURGE ( http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge )

Qaelyn.7612:

Kargath.6598:

This thread consists of people who dont play warriors and are complaining because they get killed in spvp or wvw.

It has a lot of different people. What most have in common is that they can see the elephant in the living room: warriors are overpowered compared to other classes in most contexts, and Arenanet for whatever reason seems to have no problem with this.

Kargath.6598:

if you cant out dmg 400 a second you arent doin a dmg spec you are bunker and in that case I AM SORRY DID YOU WANT TO BUNKER AND DO MAD DEEPS?

This argument is constantly repeated and is a fallacy. The issue isn’t that people can’t do 400 DPS… the issue is that:

1. Warriors get to basically subtract 400 DPS off of everything done by everyone in all situations.
2. Their ability to do this is passive and automatic.
3. It exceeds the healing ability of other classes that arguably need healing more.
4. They combine this OP healing with some of the best immunity abilities, a high health pool, high armor and high mobility, which makes many of them nearly impossible to kill, even when outnumbered.

I’m sure that these points will continue to be ignored in favor of “ermagawd, can’t u do 400 deeps?!?!!” but that won’t make them go away.

Kargath.6598:

it takes no skill really?

Well, not no skill, but certainly a lot less than other classes. Even the more honest warrior-defenders admit that.

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

People have ALREADY begun complaining about HS – with the patch not even live yet.
This proves one thing :

People don’t really care about the balance – if they did they would save their complaints and constructive feedback for a time AFTER the patch goes live and we get to see how ALL the changes ( not just the warrior ones) impact gameplay in both PVE and PVP.

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.
Instead of waiting to see if the game will be balanced or not they’re all over this post and other posts throwing a fit because warriors weren’t burned at the stake.
This left them dissatisfied and frustrated.

So yes – this isn’t really as much about balance as it is about some people not getting what they want and crying over and over because of it.

Arganthium.5638:

Harper.4173:

Great evidence – a battle between a decent warrior and the world’s worst necromancer.
I like how it takes him a full FOUR ( 4 ) Seconds to dodge out or walk out of the warrior’s F1 longbow fire field at minute 1.

I love how these 1 v 1s are always proof that warrior is OP – especially when the person he’s fighting has absolutely NO idea what they’re doing.

Yes, because the entirety of my argument was hinged upon that video, and your discrediting it has completely blown every piece of my argument to pieces. I must now hide my face away from society in the shadows, while you stand on top of the intellectual pyramid looking down upon hordes of fanatical peasants.

On a more serious note, the warrior did virtually nothing as well. Even if the necro didn’t play well, you’d figure that he’d at least be able to have +3k damage on the warrior at one point during the fight, given that the minions were obviously doing damage. I mean- even in a fight between a complete noob and a pro player, unless the pro is either super tanky or insanely bursty (the warrior here obviously didn’t build to be extremely tanky, and he clearly wasn’t extremely bursty either), you’d figure that you’d at least be able to deal 3k damage to the opponent. Does it really take 8 noobs (assuming no or minimal diminishing marginal returns) to kill one warrior?

Also, since I’m addressing you here, I should address your point about HealSig. Do you know how long it takes for HealSig to outheal thief’s Withdraw, for example? On average, 11.08 seconds maximum. With Endure Pain, 18k base health, heavy armor, Cleansing Ire, and Adrenal Health, you should be able to last at least this long unless you spend the first 3-5 seconds of the fight just standing in place, in which case the thief would still be lucky to kill you anyways. It’s not like warriors have some insane weakness to burst, especially when some of their most fundamental mechanics to their builds hard-counter burst and direct damage in general anyways.

If want to be taken seriously don’t post something like that. It has zero relevance.
I’m not going to address your argument if you include a video like that. It’s just plain wrong.

The minions he wasn’t even using properly you mean?

Also regarding thief and burst – you do realize a fight with a thief doesn’t start with each of them staring at each other.
A stealth thief can crit my knight warrior in WvW for 1/2 my HP. That’s how a fight with a thief usually starts.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

Warrior’s buffs were intended to be the ruin of the old condition meta. Before this came along the meta was " Spam conditions to win".
You need a power build. This is what a meta shift is.

B is better versus A. more players play B. After a while along comes C being better than B and players shift to C. You need to get on whatever beats C.

Also Milkzz makes a good point.

Arganthium.5638:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Arganthium.5638:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Warrior axe and guardian sword out DPS their 2 handed counterparts. Guardians scepter is far ahead of 2 handed staff for damage. Haven’t checked other classes but not thinking this argument is holding water :/

Lol are you kidding? Axe is weak in that it’s predictable, so the overall DPS from the extremely fluid GS and hammer w. h its CC is at least as much if not more than axe’s. And scepter… No. Just no. Not even close. Maybe if you stand inside of Smite, but otherwise it’s not even near to staff, especially when you consider that staff is AoE.

Umm, yeah, that unpredictable great sword and the never telegraphed hammer. Scepter 1 vs 1 will wreck a staff. But yes, if you want to set up ideal situations for each two handed weapon where it outshines a 1 hander go ahead. But the point of this topic was simply to address damage, was it not? 1 handers are not lacking on these classes as far as I can tell. Maybe thief short bow vs everything else? Or ranger great sword vs longsword? Staff ele? Let one of them chime in.

I’m not saying that 1h weapons are necessarily “lacking” in terms of skill coefficients or utility, I’m saying that they’re lacking in that they necessarily deal anywhere from 5 to 15% less damage than what 2h weapons deal.

Thief short bow is the only 2h weapon that doesn’t deal an inherent amount of more damage than 1h weapons do (not including stuff like torch). If you’ve ever used the weapon, you know that it deals next to no damage, which is partially because only three of its 5 attacks deal damage in the first place, but two of those three do very little and the third has a super obvious cast.

Not sure what you’re talking about when you say “ranger greatsword vs longsword”.

The reason why staff ele is bad (it’s one of my alts) is because all of its skills have either extremely obvious casts and are easily evadable, or they just don’t deal that much damage. It has nothing to do with the fact that it’s a 2h weapon as much as it is that ANet is bad at fixing ele’s staff.

1H weapons " lack 10-15% damage compared to 2H weapons.
But as proven by a lot of people here they deal MORE damage in the majority of situations.
Your point is null and void.

Edit : You just said that GS has a “reliable burst skill” – that made my day. You have to very skillfully set up a PVP encounter to get 100B off ( assuming you’re not referring to the F1 skill) and that takes a lot of effort and is not " reliable" .

Arganthium.5638:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Warrior axe and guardian sword out DPS their 2 handed counterparts. Guardians scepter is far ahead of 2 handed staff for damage. Haven’t checked other classes but not thinking this argument is holding water :/

Lol are you kidding? Axe is weak in that it’s predictable, so the overall DPS from the extremely fluid GS and hammer with its CC is at least as much if not more than axe’s. And scepter… No. Just no. Not even close. Maybe if you stand inside of Smite, but otherwise it’s not even near to staff, especially when you consider that staff is AoE.

Lol are YOU Kidding?

If this is from a PVE standpoint the bosses/mobs won’t care to dodge or move out of the way so Axe is better.
From a PVP standpoint do you really think bringing a GS will be a good option? If yes then allow me to start rolling around laughing

Regarding Scepter vs Staff.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orb_of_Wrath
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Wrath
Notice the damage and attack interval – also notice he is right and you are wrong.

Arganthium.5638:

Rednik.3809:

And here is another blatant lies. We love to “forgot” some “redundant” facts, aren’t we?

Ele- don’t even start that crap with me. Ether Renewal is an absolutely godawful source of condi removal, if only because of the fact that it is so easily interruptible. If you can’t get this through your skull, go play an ele and then tell me that it’s one of the “best condi removals in the game”. That’s complete garbage.

Engineer- that “large” part isn’t really that large, and relies on your allies being at least somewhat close to you, which creates an incentive problem: either you wait for your allies to be in range so that you can use HealTurret for maximum effect but you thereby weaken your own healing, or you use it as soon as possible (which is the HPS that I accounted for in my calculations) and risk being unable to benefit your allies. Engis also don’t have heavy armor, and warriors have 3k more health than they do.

Guardian- if you can’t wait until Shelter is finished to burst an opponent, you shouldn’t play a burst build.

Necro- necros don’t have that many ways to get rid of condis already- both of their other two main sources are weapon skills, one of which has a pretty obvious cast. Either way, the heal is still on a 25s CD, which isn’t exactly super reliable, and again it creates an incentive problem: wait to use your heal for when you have a lot of condis, thereby sacrificing your healing potential, or use it as soon as possible, thereby sacrificing some of your condi clearing potential.

Ranger- not many other condi clears in the first place outside of Empathic Bond (which is getting nerfed/debugged anyways). Rangers also have very, very few ways to actually utilize the water field by themselves, and most attempts to utilize it too much will often result in lost damage potential (I’m speaking as a thief who’s spammed water fields with Cluster Bomb before). The condi cleanse is still nowhere as reliable as Cleansing Ire, which, combined with LB, allows you to remove up to 4 conditions in a 10s period of time very easily, and with Berserker Stance, warriors already become immune to condis anyways. Either way there aren’t enough conditions in fights to make Healing Spring completely OP. That’s why mesmers are still playable. Anyways, you still have 3k more health and heavy armor over rangers.

Thief- you can easily get gap creators with weapons like Sword and Greatsword. The condition clear only applies to very specific condis, and honestly neither of those are enough to justify not getting 392/360 HPS with no cast time whatsoever.

Warrior- so we’ve finally gotten here… Do you still really believe that Healing Signet is weaker than or on average with other healing skills in the game? It has no cast time (meaning no lost damage potential, no lost defensive potential, and no lost healing potential), is less counterable by poison (you have to maintain constant poison uptime in order to get the full reduction from poison), and, when combined with warrior’s other amazing defensive options, is downright OP. Cleansing Ire and Zerker Stance get rid of most of the problems with conditions that warriors ever have. Meanwhile, warrior still has the highest base health in the game except for necro, which doesn’t have the 14% damage reduction from heavy armor anyways. It’s funny- yesterday I was watching a battle between a warrior and an MM necro where the warrior didn’t fall beneath 20k health even once. The fact that it is so impossibly difficult to take down a warrior should be a testament to how overpowered warrior is right now. As for side effects, the fact that Healing Signet is in and of itself a passive effect is a side effect that no other usable skill in the game has. The fact that you don’t have to cast it or, for that matter, even worry about it is such a huge benefit, and you don’t even take that into account.

By the way… Signet of Malice and Signet of Restoration are both signets that have “no side effect” and heal for 200-300 health less than HealSig does, and both of those require you to hit somebody with a skill in order to activate. Furthermore, of the two classes that own those two signets (Thief and ele respectively), they both have 8k less health than warrior, and get 7/14% more damage dealt to them, respectively.

Great evidence – a battle between a decent warrior and the world’s worst necromancer.
I like how it takes him a full FOUR ( 4 ) Seconds to dodge out or walk out of the warrior’s F1 longbow fire field at minute 1.

I love how these 1 v 1s are always proof that warrior is OP – especially when the person he’s fighting has absolutely NO idea what they’re doing.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Thedenofsin.7340:

This is addressed to the dev on the left during Ready-Up:

Let’s assume 30hps is the difference between Healing Signet and Healing Surge. However, Healing Signet is not skillful play, and there is no skillful counterplay.

Healing Surge can be interrupted and you can poison the heal. You cannot interrupt Healing Signet and, unless you plan on giving all professions access to 100% poison uptime, you cannot poison Healing Signet.

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE. Is it that hard to figure out?
If you burst him down said warrior cannot heal.

That’s not a counter. If you dole out 22k of burst damage you counter any class. That’s along the same lines when you hear people say “just use poison – it counters HS”. Poison counters all healing, and, last time I checked, every class doesn’t have a weapon that allows them to dole out poison with 100% uptime.

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

Qaelyn.7612:

Harper.4173:

If a LOT of damage is put on a HS warrior over a SHORT period of time he has no healing solution – his passive regen is too little AND the active heal isn’t going to help him out – so it IS a counter.

But if you put a lot of damage on anyone in a short period of time they are going to die. It’s just harder to do with warriors because they have by far the greatest combination of HP, healing and mobility. They start out with a huge HP pool, their healing is passive, automatic, and enormous, and if things are going badly they just escape and heal even more while you chase them. That’s what people are complaining about (and Arenanet is ignoring).

Harper.4173:

If you’re thinking that the only way to counter a heal is to stop the opponent from healing i think you’re referring to INTERRUPTING a heal.

It’s not the only way, but it’s a way that’s used on pretty much every other class to which warriors are largely immune.

Harper.4173:

You’re misunderstanding me – warriors in most places except high-end PVP and PVE are SIMPLE. They’re easy to pick up and play.

And why should a class that is admittedly easy to play also be the most powerful in the game?

If you put a lot of damage of ANYONE in a short amount of time it doesn’t mean they’ll die.
If a warrior has this : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge then he’ll get healed for 9.800 health effectively repairing a lot of the damage dealt.
If a warrior under the same burst has healing signet he can heal for what? 3275? How is that even comparable?
He doesn’t have the time to heal up by passive – and his active can’t manage -ergo he’s in a spot where he can’t fix his problem.

Is it that hard to grasp this concept?

If warriors are easy to play that does not mean they should be suboptimal and worse off that the other classes.
They are FAR from the best class – there are numerous classes – as i’ve posted above that can specialize far better than warriors to fill niche roles. The only advantage warriors get is that they can do a bit of everything but ultimately it’s the higher skill cap classes that excel at these specific roles.

Let’s look at it :

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Are you going to tell me these things aren’t true?
The class is outperformed in all these situations by other classes.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Warrior axe and guardian sword out DPS their 2 handed counterparts. Guardians scepter is far ahead of 2 handed staff for damage. Haven’t checked other classes but not thinking this argument is holding water :/

QFT.
But let’s just spam stuff we think is right because why not. Right guys?

Qaelyn – healing works in different ways.
A heal that heals OVER TIME Is countered by the rapid application of high amounts of damage.
If a LOT of damage is put on a HS warrior over a SHORT period of time he has no healing solution – his passive regen is too little AND the active heal isn’t going to help him out – so it IS a counter.

If you’re thinking that the only way to counter a heal is to stop the opponent from healing i think you’re referring to INTERRUPTING a heal.

Countering means using a strategy for which your opponent is unprepared/ unequipped and using said strategy to succeed.

Warriors are seen as easy and fun because even though in high-end PVP your positioning is key and each mistake can be fatal – in PVE and most aspects of the game the class doesn’t require you to stay on top of too many gimmick mechanics.
You don’t need to switch attunements / switch different kits / keep a silly PET AI in line/ put down heals walls and reflects – you can just focus on killing stuff and not much else.
People don’t like to get into overly complicated things.

You’re misunderstanding me – warriors in most places except high-end PVP and PVE are SIMPLE. They’re easy to pick up and play.

Why bother with 129301293 spells and all that cluttery nonsense when you can just hit things with your sword?! ( That mentality is why warriors will always be a preferred class).

Vayne.8563:

So, instead of debuffing one profession they should raise all the stats to that, and make all the content in the entire game trivial and meaningless to everyone?

If something is out of whack by being two powerful, it’s not only less work to debuff that one thing, but think about it.

If you increase everything you also have to increase the power of all the enemies. Do you know how much work that would be?

One year after this game launched 95% of the content IS trivial and meaningless.

Think about it – just a few areas actually pose a challenge – High level fractals and some other places. The rest of the map? Trivial, boring, easy.

Because the players got better. It doesn’t have that much to do with gear as it does with people adapting and adjusting to the game more and more.
The real answer here would have been NEW content – instead of temporary LS clutter and more importantly the introduction of ELITE areas.

Thing FOW and UW from GW1. Sure fractals can work but not really – and by the time you get into FOTM 40+ you’ve already figured out the best strategies and seen all that fractals has to offer.

Perhaps a hard-mode variant of dungeons would be good – double the gold reward, double the tokens, increased drop rates for those players that REALLY want to play hard content.

Also to those who are considering that the game could be reworked – that will never happen. Each encounter and such will never be reworked – the only solution is that NEW content added is much more interesting and challenging and equally rewarding.

Edit : I see some people have focused on the idea that the majority want challenging content.
That is wrong – the majority of players want LOOT. Gold. Shiny things.
Challenging content is FUN but if it is not profitable or rewarding to run it players will do it once or twice for the challenge and then never do it again.

Why do you think people run AC 1/3 + CoF 1+2, SOS1 and HOTW1? Because of easy money.

Why don’t people do their own Arah paths? And just buy the dungeon from those going " Selling arah path x 5 g " – because they want the reward ( aka achievement) without doing the challenging content.

Why do you think the new Aetherblade path in TA is not being done by anyone?
Why do people never play SE P2?

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Harper.4173:

How about no?

Two handed weapons are fine – and your attitude is wrong and malicious.
If you feel the situation is unfair to your class than maybe make a post asking for kit damage for engineer to be increased – but don’t start going off asking for nerfs for everybody because you feel like it.

Protip: The nerf you ask for will never happen.

They are fine, but they’re getting buffed. An extra sigil slot can be used for a plain old +5% damage, with no significant mathematical work. That could most definitely throw balancing out of whack.

They said they are going to “rebalance” (read: nerf) sigils across the board to compensate for those changes. I’d not be surprised if the effect of dual sigils turned out to be, after changes, even lesser than a single sigil is now.

The rebalance will probably aim at over-the-top combos and will most likely target unpopular sigils that nobody uses.
It is my opinion some of the less popular sigils will be brought up to par with more popular versions.
I doubt they’ll nerf any of the existing ones.

They announced it in yesterday’s livestream.

Qaelyn.7612:

I’m really not one in general to make overall criticisms of the dev team, because on the whole I think they do a pretty good job.

But the bias towards warriors over all other classes is becoming the elephant in the living room. The proposed nerf to HS is a joke, and it appears no other substantive changes are being made to address their insane immunities and mobility.

I go into WvW and for a game with 8 professions, it seems like 1/4 to 1/3 of the players are on warriors. That’s balance?

Very disappointing.

They have already said that other changes are going to come – those that they didn’t want to spoil and weren’t allowed to talk about.
I believe that the best thing to do now is to wait for the game to settle and see how things work out.
I predict the balance will be good – but it’s the people that wanted warrior nerfed into the ground that are now making a fuss – the patch isn’t even out yet and STILL They’re making a fuss over something that isn’t even in the game.

We don’t know how all the changes combined will affect the meta – but the people who wanted a warrior nerf just to spite warriors are the ones crying – because they don’t necessarily want a balanced game ( although they want that too) – their main priority is to spite warrior players and see the class nerfed into the ground at ALL cost.

Regarding the prevalence of warriors – warrior popularity is an issue here. Warriors will always be popular even if they are balanced. Because they are EASY and FUN to play unlike other classes.
Because they have great looking armor ( and not silly trench coats) and can wear some of the coolest legendary weapons.

Thedenofsin.7340:

This is addressed to the dev on the left during Ready-Up:

Let’s assume 30hps is the difference between Healing Signet and Healing Surge. However, Healing Signet is not skillful play, and there is no skillful counterplay.

Healing Surge can be interrupted and you can poison the heal. You cannot interrupt Healing Signet and, unless you plan on giving all professions access to 100% poison uptime, you cannot poison Healing Signet.

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE. Is it that hard to figure out?
If you burst him down said warrior cannot heal.

So – two handed weapons are getting an extra sigil.
Provided each player has one sigil that offers some form of utility – what would the best damaging 2nd sigil be?

I can’t really decide between Air or Force. Anyone got any ideas?

And would the Air+Force sigil be the best overall DPS?
(not considering bloodlust since the charges reset on death and some content areas don’t allow you to regain charges).

Sarrs.4831:

Harper.4173:

How about no?

Two handed weapons are fine – and your attitude is wrong and malicious.
If you feel the situation is unfair to your class than maybe make a post asking for kit damage for engineer to be increased – but don’t start going off asking for nerfs for everybody because you feel like it.

Protip: The nerf you ask for will never happen.

They are fine, but they’re getting buffed. An extra sigil slot can be used for a plain old +5% damage, with no significant mathematical work. That could most definitely throw balancing out of whack.

Considering most damage builds got nerfed through the critical damage update i doubt things will be " thrown out of whack".
Full DPS zerker output was nerfed by 10%. That’s double the 5% there.

I doubt they’ll nerf the damage if they add a slot.
A lot of sigils have effects rather than damage and I doubt the community would be alright with another damage nerf that would basically force everyone into using a sigil of force.

My question to the OP and others is this : why the negativity ?
Why not buff the kits instead of nerfing the weapons? Why must all balance be done by nerfing something?!

Aberrant.6749:

Harper.4173:

Let’s not forget that the OP here is biased.
Unlike the other classes warriors have no access to protection, stealth, reflects and all those other nasty things that other classes can abuse to stay alive.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Missile_Deflection

So you’re saying a warrior packs as much reflect as a mesmer/ guardian?
I’m not saying we don’t have it at all – but not as good as other classes.

Also I had forgotten to mention necro’s 2nd life bar. Fun stuff.

Honest question : why do people want this class destroyed? Would it make you guys feel better?!

Let’s not forget that the OP here is biased.
Unlike the other classes warriors have no access to protection, stealth, reflects and all those other nasty things that other classes can abuse to stay alive.
Of course he makes no mention of this since he’s trying to prove a point and thus only looking at a SMALL part of the whole picture and pointing out what he feels is wrong but doesn’t bother to present it all.

Yes – warriors have a strong heal. It is also a heal warriors need to remain viable.
If you’re mad – keep at it, but I believe the value is good. The devs said it themselves – reduce it more and you’ll have a trash heal nobody will take.

I do understand people like the OP – they want their free kill back. But I have a feeling they’re not going to get it.

How about no?

Two handed weapons are fine – and your attitude is wrong and malicious.
If you feel the situation is unfair to your class than maybe make a post asking for kit damage for engineer to be increased – but don’t start going off asking for nerfs for everybody because you feel like it.

Protip: The nerf you ask for will never happen.

People don’t seem to get it.
During the livestream the dev team said they will rework critical damage for ALL sets. Yes – this includes berserker which means the " top dps uber build" will get an overall reduction in dps of about 10%.
But with the new Critical Damage → Ferocity ALL stats are getting a critical damage nerf. This means that there is no reason to allow for a stat change.

If only zerker gear would receive less ferocity then let’s say Cavalier’s or other sets that have crit damage then yes – A stat change like with magic find would be an option, but since the conversion rate of Crit Damage into ferocity is the same for ALL sets – I don’t really see why.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jski.6180:

And that makes other builds better when you drop one thing another thing becomes more of a chose. They are opening up more chose by making all in zerk the end all be all.

That is not how it works. Zerker dominated the game because the other stats were bad at what they were meant to do, and they still are equally bad. So there still is no reason to spec heavily in toughness or healing.

Basically, the devs noticed zerker dominated all, so they nerfed it a little. They didn’t actually address the problem. The problem is much deeper than that. It’s more than just a matter of crits versus normal damage, or zerker versus soldiers. It’s a core issue with how effective armor and healing are at higher levels. DPS will still dominate after this minor change, and THAT has got to change.

What I would like to see:

A change that demands players to bring a decent amount of tankyness and healing in their party, along with damage. I want to see some balance, instead of full DPS teams clearing everything in record time. The problem isn’t so much with the players running it, but with the game not demanding more strategy, and not offering more depth. They basically took out the trinity, and put nothing in its place. It’s all damage, and that’s it. The game should challenge the players more.

Pro tip of the day – it is more challenging to play as a full zerker 5 man team than to steamroll as a full cleric’s team. It requires more skill, coordination and strategy.

Players shouldn’t be FORCED into being more tanky or healy than they NEED to. In GW2 you bring as much toughness/ healing as you need to stay alive. The only factor should be your skill level.

You’re a good player? Run full zerker.
You’re a bad player? Start adding in toughness and healing until the gear balances out your badness. Penalty : your content finishing time will be slower.
Seems fair to me.

#mad because some people clear faster.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

30 seconds on every profession

5 minutes spent on warrior…

no one wanted to talk about every profession, tried to pass it off to other team members

every person on the panel literally jumped out of their chair to talk about warrior…

Healing signet nerfed 30 hp/s, large buff to the active…

If you haven’t already deleted your character and rolled a warrior, you might as well do it before the next balance patch.

1.Don’t even know what the active will be – it will most likely be situational.

2.Using the active means you don’t get the passive – ergo you’re not getting more passive regen IF you’re using your active.

Yes – they will all work. They do not cancel each other out.

Muchacho.2390:

It doesnt matter how much they nerf it. It will always be a terrible skill from a game design perspective (like many other things in this game). No healing skill should be passiv.

Of course not. Because you say so

It was in the livestream. And I think it’s fair – 8%( 31.62 hps) for a more usable active is a fair trade.

#Keepgettingmadoverwarriors2014.

The deal is this – they realize Zerker and PVE will always be the meta – if they destroyed zerker they would just make players mad. So they tweaked it a bit. It will always be king.
#Zerker2014!

Fenrir.3609:

So everything just got a bit slower. Awesome, spending more time running the same tedious content is a vast improvement.

At least they didn’t ruin the game. I was expecting that.

“So – berserker will still be the best set in game for dps " – pretty much direct quote from the devs – LIVE.

Take that zerker haters!

Mixchimmer.7230:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Mixchimmer.7230:

I like the idea of roles because it is my opinion that when every single role is DPS, it’s boring.

Every character in a dungeon is [DPS+ _. DPS+Banners. DPS+Reflects. DPS+Stealth.

Lets look at it like a math problem. If each side of the equation is dps, we can cancel it out and then you have the roles: Banners/Offensive support, Reflects, Stealth, Defensive Boons etc.

I’ve said it until I’m blue in the face: your traits, class and weapons determine your playstyle. Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you intend to have to soak up.

TL;DR: Everyone’s role is dps, regardless of gear. Everyone has to wack on the boss. The actual playstyle is determined by non-gear factors.

As an aside, not regarding your post directly… I see people saying “I don’t want dps to be my playstyle I want a more tanky playstyle.” Do you not understand what this means? This literally means, “I don’t want to contribute my 1/5th of the team dps, and I’d rather not be bothered to dodge most attacks.” When you realize that is what you’re saying, you can imagine a little bit why the reaction from some people is less than positive.

Oh, play style is absolutely affected by non-gear factors — I will not disagree with you there. Like I said earlier, I agree that their content is a large chunk of the problem, Tequatle was literally just a DPS check.

There are a whole lot of different things that change the play style. I don’t particularly think altering gear is going to fix it. I do feel that is it a baby step in the right direction though. All I know is I’m personally sick of DPS dominating all PvE content and I’m ready for the meta to be shook up. Whether changes to gear, changes to content, new content, or deciding that GW2 is no longer the game for me, is what will cure the sickness is yet to be seen.

How much damage you deal to a boss will ALWAYS be the defining factor when succeeding or failing an encounter. No matter how many gimmick mechanics are slapped on – players will learn them – and the bottom line will always be HOW FAST YOU CAN KILL THAT BOSS.

@ODB – secondary roles do exist – might stacking classes / reflect classes / stealth classes.

Terrible idea. I’m against it.

Why nerf zerker?

Because jealous bads have spammed the forums so much that they’ve literally made the devs do what they want.

What they don’t understand is that the new meta will still be DPS oriented. So gear check them before your dungeon/fractals/whatever runs and if they’re not the equivalent of " zerker " in the new meta treat them the same as before.

This changes nothing, except our clear times – for which i feel cheated.
In a sense the game is changing because some people could do more and those who couldn’t started crying very loudly. So now they’re getting what they want.

It’s a sad day.

People want roles because in an everyone does everything for himself they can’t handle all the different things they need to take care of and become worse players for it.
So they want their little role to learn and maybe they’ll do better.

The meta will still be dps oriented – I’m just sorry for the people that invested in ascended zerker.
There will still be gearchecks, the dungeon community will still be as it was before – nothing will change except the optimal set we deal dps with.

Critical damage changes – really won’t change anything. They’re addressing the symptom of a problem they can’t really fix.

I’ve done this thread before.
I’ll won’t be bothered to do it again in full scope.
Short answer : no.
Long answer : no because it is a terrible idea.

Also – The Great Al – it is obvious you don’t play zerker – or if you do you do it poorly.
As a zerker player I’ve never traited for vigor, never brought any skill that gave me extra dodges or ever bothered to run with groups that spammed it.
A good zerker does not need extra dodges. The two default ones with the default recharge rate are enough.

Meta isn’t what it is because of vigor. It is what it is because good players will always be good and they’ll keep getting better.

Knight’s. With zerker trinkets.

Arlette.9684:

There’s this unwritten truth about MMOs and balance patches that goes:

“If the population of X class doubles after a patch, then something is wrong with X”

Think of it this way, before the stealth nerf/warrior buff… all you get to fight was thieves, now their population seems to be toned down greatly.

Cheese lovers will always play the fotm and when the fotm switches, the cheese lovers switch.

Warriors didn’t double after the patch. Warriors were always prevalent – from day 1 they were a favorite because of many factors.

-A good looking class with good armor options and great visuals the class was always a favorite – both in GW2 and GW1.
The main factor however is that it is a less complicated class than say engi or ele. It’s a very straigt forward class without too many gimmicks or complicated class mechanics.
That’s why it can’t really specialize as well as other classes can. That’s why it can’t excel in the roles i previously mentioned in my post above.

By its design from a gameplay point of view and also by its design visually and aesthetically – the warrior will always be popular.

Fungalfoot.7213:

And countless of players have tried the warrior out in SPvP only to find out that they’re suddenly topping the charts without putting in any effort. This isn’t an argument about whether the warrior is overpowered or not because it is. This is an argument about how to address that issue and right now healing signet makes for the easiest target but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the only target. It all depends on what role the warrior is meant to fill.

ANet has to become a lot clearer on that point.

The way I feel and the way I think they intended the class to be is a good-at everything but without the other classes’ ability to specialize.
And think about it – that’s pretty much what it is today.

Can it spike damage? Yes. Can it spike as well as a thief? No.
Can it bunker? Yes. Can it bunker as well as a guardian? No.
Can it do condi damage pressure?Yes. Can it outperform a engineer/necro in this regard? No.
Can it solo roam in WvW?Yes – can it outperform a mesmer? No.
Can it buff allies? Yes -but not as well as an ele( for offensive) or guardian ( For defensive).
Can it deal high damage( In PVE)- yes – but can’t out damage an ele/thief/guard.
Can it heal with shouts and banners? Yes – can it outheal an ele/guard?No.

So – you’ve got a class with a lot of potential in all areas BUT a class that can’t really excel at anything since other classes can better specialize to fill that role.
No matter how much specialization goes into a warrior build another class will ALWAYS do it better.
On top of that there are some very useful game mechanics and buffs ( stealth/blinks/protection/reflects/illusions/elemental weapons/kits) that warriors do not have access to – they’ve got to make up for it in some way.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Harper.4173:

We had all that before HS was buffed and we were regarded as absolute trash in all forms of PVP.

Some people did amazing stuff with the warrior in WvWvW before all the overbuffing and the class has always had superb mobility. The issue now is that it has superb mobility and superb sustain. Something has got to give because as it stands the class is rightly viewed as the official easy mode. Either nerf the sustain or the mobility. If warriors were sluggish juggernauts easily kited I’m sure the playerbase would be more inclined to tolerate this.

This. People said for the longest time that warriors were trash in PvP before the overbuff to Healing Signet, but dear god did I encounter warriors who completely wrecked me despite that. Warrior before along with the thief were the official hardmode PvP classes. If you could do well with them, you were declared an amazing player. Now Warrior doing well means jack kitten, it means you’re just coasting on an overpowered healing skill.

Amazing players will always do good – even if they’re given a broken class – because the player himself can compensate with knowledge, experience and lightning quick reflexes.
That doesn’t mean the class was not broken.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Harper.4173:

We had all that before HS was buffed and we were regarded as absolute trash in all forms of PVP.

Some people did amazing stuff with the warrior in WvWvW before all the overbuffing and the class has always had superb mobility. The issue now is that it has superb mobility and superb sustain. Something has got to give because as it stands the class is rightly viewed as the official easy mode. Either nerf the sustain or the mobility. If warriors were sluggish juggernauts easily kited I’m sure the playerbase would be more inclined to tolerate this.

The sustain will not be nerfed – maybe just toned down – but warriors were always designed to have high sustain.
The mobility is not an issue – a highly mobile warrior lacks CC – and thus has no real means of delivering his damage.
The class is wrongly viewed as EZ mode because it isn’t. It takes skill to play a warrior properly – and i didn’t even realize how much.

I tried sPVP today with a level 8 mesmer – first time i played the class. I just mashed buttons – clones started popping and people started dying. I had no idea what i was doing yet i was doing well.

Pre-HS buff very good players were doing decent with warrior in WVW. However both there and in sPVP the class was regarded as a liability and no serious team would take you.

I’m sure that you and the playerbase would like to see the warrior become a sluggish juggernaut that could be easily kited( and made into an easy free kill) but sadly ( for you) that is not going to happen.
The class is very well where it is – the high mobility and good sustain giving it a good reach in order to close gaps and stay on a target that has multiple evade mechanisms.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Jon, why have you balanced the entire warrior profession around a single heal?

Because this is Anet…
As if all the mobility, toughness, armor and defensive skills they have are not enough…

We had all that before HS was buffed and we were regarded as absolute trash in all forms of PVP.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s about time. Zerker gears 3x as fast as any other gear set in the game. It was kind of absurd how much more powerful ascended zerker made you over the other ascended upgrades.

Additionally due to the lack of a trinity combat is entirely centered on max dps. This means that zerker offered all the benefits with no real drawbacks.

The most obvious solution is to impose a cap on crit damage. Conditions have a cap on duration. Boons have a cap on duration. Everything seems to have a cap except crit damage which can just be stacked until you are getting one shot.

First cap crit damage, then start reworking fights to be more in line with the trinity. Anything else is just a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

If you want this game to be reworked in order to be more in line with the trinity I think you’re playing the wrong game.
GW2 is a ONE player game- all roles in to one – no trinity.
I think you’ve got things mixed up.

Wethospu.6437:

People run full DPS because of faster clear time. That’s all. Also exaggerating usually hurts your credibility (people just assume you have no idea what you are talking about).

At the moment I don’t really gearcheck people because I know my damage can carry and the run goes pretty fast. But if my damage gets nerfed I have to gearcheck to ensure we get decent DPS.

And that my friend will be the world of tomorrow. Never again will I go in a run without hosting it and checking all people if zerker is nerfed.
#Gearcheck 2014!