Guild Wars 2

I got cast into bronze with a series of losing streaks. The last one was 10 straight slaughtered games.

The matchmaking was so nice early in the season, but I think the population is too low and match quality is being sacrificed to queue time.

It’s a real shame it feels like S2 all over again. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I’d personally like to see guardians and dh have to wait. Maybe there’d be fewer of them.

The matchmaking was so good early on. I’m disappointed that match quality has deteriorated.

That would be more skilled play than very high evade or block/heal. After all, the other player can choose not to spam attacks and kill clones en masse.

Personally I’d love to see PU be a thing again, along with phantasm builds. I think a return of clone death traits would do just that.

I don’t really see the support Mesmer becoming a strong thing in pvp. Still, clone death would re expand quite a few options. Perhaps even a support playstyle.

To return once more to the topic. We are discussing build diversity which is very scant in pvp.

I took a build similar to the “Phantasm Roamer” into PvP, with a little success. I wouldn’t say it’s a good pvp build though.

Most builds will work in pve. I’m looking for a means to make it work in pvp.

To return to the topic, metabattle does list a phantasm build for PvE.

Again, I think on-death traits would be needed to balance such a build to be pvp viable.

The devs expressly mentioned that Chronomancer, “has been on our radar for a while,” and went on to say, “but it’s a delicate situation.”

I interpret that as meaning that they’d like to nerf chrono but realize that would put Mesmer out of pvp generally. On death traits would begin to redress that.

Pakkazull.6894:

Ithilwen.1529:

The leader board considers only win ratio.

Ithilwen.1529:

Please tell me how what I said is “blatantly false.”

Exedore already explained it well enough in his post above. The leaderboard isn’t based on your win to loss ratio, it’s based on your MMR which is in turn based on which players you defeat and which players you lose to. Expected results lead to small changes in rating and upsets lead to bigger changes.

Ithilwen.1529:

Simple observation will show you that pvp population is low.

No, that’s not good enough. Low compared to what? CS:GO and League of Legends? Certainly, but is it low compared to previous seasons? Only ArenaNet knows, and you certainly don’t work at ArenaNet. In my limited, subjective experience the population is about the same or higher than previous seasons, but I don’t go around presenting that as fact.

If that is the case, how did I place well within the top 250 after only 10 matches? How do other’s remain at or near the top with very few matches.

It may be that in theory the leaderboard is based on MMR. In practice however, it appears to be largely dependent on w/l ratio and playing as few matches as possible.

@pakkazul

We apparently agree on the leader board. Please tell me how what I said is “blatantly false.” Simple observation will show you that pvp population is low.

@Ross Biddle

I want to keep silver status so that I’m not swept into the maelstrom of bronze next season.

As to being able to “genuinely” maintain it. By avoiding risk I’m doing what many at the top of the leader board are doing. It is said; “what’s good for the gander is good for the goose.”

That’s really kind of a point I’m making. The current situation doesn’t encourage maintaining one’s rank. Rather it encourages avoiding games once rank is obtained.

I hear you bringing up another negative aspect of class stacking.

That, I think was the reasoning for Chrono phantasma. If one can shatter often enough, the thinking goes, damage is sustained.

I don’t think the concept works in practice though. Also that does nothing for Phantasm builds, PU and the like.

On death would at least give some return for clones cleaved before they could be used. This would be a stop gap form of sustained damage.

I envision putting out my “damage phantasm” as Osicat once referred to it and then going after the enemy with clones and auto attack. This would be a form of sustained damage. The clones would be small bombs to add to my other attack skills.

I will say that it’s bright points, S5 is the best yet with the fairest matchmaking.

Sadly, population in low. This is largely because it’s self defeating to play more than the minimum of matches. The leader board considers only win ratio. The most effective strategy is to play a minimum of matches to minimize risk.

Low population means decreasing match quality After 4 straight dh stacked matches with heavy losses, I’ve decided not to risk my silver status and stay out of ranked as much as possible until the season ends.

several things would improve s6. I recognize that some of this will not happen.

• Leader board needs to consider games played AND win ratio. This will improve match quality by encouraging people to play the whole season and keeping population high.

• Pure solo queue. Duo queue is the new exploit with “organized” teams out of ranked. An additional all-team queue is worth considering.

• Remove class stacking. This speaks for itself.

• DH needs a good hard look.

OriOri.8724:

Ithilwen.1529:

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

I admire that you are trying to fix problems with mesmer, I really do, but I think you need to look closer to this part in particular. Why don’t mesmers want to shatter their phantasms in a phantasm build? Its because too much of our damage comes from phantasms and a shatter can’t make up for it.

Moving phantasms to pure utility, like iAvenger, iDisenchanter, or iDefender could do wonders to help with this regard since shattering would no longer mean gutting your own damage for a rather long time in a PvP setting.

The issue I have with this is a simple one.

ANET will almost certainly not give us enough damage to compensate for the loss of, (mostly hypothetical,) Phantasm damage.

If they did, there’d be no reason to shatter at all. I continue to think on death traits are a better solution.

This particular skin has a gap under the jawline. It looks like a slit neck.

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

The other problem is that the enemy can easily kill your pets without penalty.

Hence again, my suggestion to return clone death to the mix. The skill would come in placing and sacrificing the clones.

First, the incentives keep enough population in the game to make it worthwhile.

Second, I won’t play unranked because I can still be solos v. team.

I totally agree. Remove duo and have solo or team. The duos are the main sources of problems.

No, actually Ele is pretty difficult to play since the slightest breeze will interrupt overloads.

Agreed, in years of using eating type devices I have never gotten a valuable drop. I do much better just salvaging and selling.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Windwalker.7421:

MailMail.6534:

Clones dying from cleave and AOE is called counter play. Penalizing people for getting rid of our clones would get rid of this counter play. Listen to the Boss Ross.

And why would an option to trait in a way to counter this counter play, especially on a trickster class, be a bad thing? Sounds like a good option if it leads to more build diversity and more skillful counter-play required by those facing Mesmers, because they can’t just mindlessly AoE illusions like now. I fail to see how more horizontal options in traiting are ever a bad idea.

There are lots of counter-play to counter-play scenarios, this is usually considered a good thing for both build and play diversity. It’s just too simplistic to have a single easily accomplished method of completely shutting down a fundamental profession mechanic such as our Shatters is. Giving an option to keep our opponents on their toes when they mindlessly spam AE is IMO an enrichment to skillful PvP play.

Making Illusions or especially Phantasms more survivable is another route, but these are mutually exclusive and completely different play-styles. We already have traits and a Signet to accomplish that, but clearly even if you specialize in all of the current options, not even our Phantasms turn out to be really any more survivable than without these options. So yes, those options should also be significant improved to have a much more noticeable impact, in order to provide another option.

That does not exclude making other useful traits to discourage the killing of especially Phantasms. Those two trait options would in fact be mutually exclusive by their very nature.

The problem is that there is no skill involved. It’s all just mindless spam. Enemies mindlessly spam their aoe/cleave. Clones die at random, spewing random condi’s in their own AoE fields. You then mindlessly spawn more clones without an iota of skill to repeat the process ad-nausea. Then the other guy mindlessly spams condi cleanses, starts his mindless invuln/evade/block chain, and mindlessly spams some more pressure skills etc etc etc.

The game is oodles and oodles of mindlessness at this point. Adding more spamming mindless options is just adding more mindless spam to an already mindlessly spamming spam fest XD

Spam.

One of my central ideas is that if mindless cleaving of clones were punished, as it once was, there would be less mindless spam.

I think people are tanking matches in placement, hoping to win streak. It’s a logical strategy if leader board placement is only win ratio.

The rewards this season make it worth playing. The game needs players if it is to thrive.

We celebrate Wintersday in Tyria, thank The Six.

Happy Wintersday.

I strongly suspect that people are tanking placement matches. After all, the leader board considers only win ratio.

Why not tank into bronze, hoping for win streaks?

Here again, there is agreement with one of my main premises.

Clones die so easily and without any penalty at all. This undermines practically all Mesmer builds.

Hence, killing clones should carry a penalty. I contend that penalty should be damage/conditions just as it was,

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

rn the top 10 in NA is:
katsumi – 4th in ToL (as a sub)
paul – 2nd in ToL
nos – 1st in ToL
toker – 1st in ToL
booms – 1st in ToL
toker again – 1st
ementon – 3rd in PL S2 (didnt play ToL)
nos again – 1st
zeromis – 2nd in ToLK
thermite – only rando whos been farming games on a stupid symbol build

seems pretty correct to me

To summarize my initial idea; The leader board evidently doesn’t punish simply playing a few games and then stopping.

This means several things.

First it is better from a leader board point of view not to play. Playing risks a drop in MMR. Such a situation isn’t good for PvP.

Second, it’s not accurate to determine skill from a very small number of games in one case and a large number of games in another. So, the ability to stop playing implies that skill will not be measured with an even metric. If that is the case, the leader board loses quite a bit of it’s prestige.

Third, it is likely that players who stopped playing a main to preserve leader board standing are playing on alts instead. This means that the situation remains in flux, while these alt accounts find there level.

In simple terms, the situation with the leader board may be dropping match quality.

First, I have been playing regularly.

Second, I believe we are in a second “first week.” The system is set up in such a way that players are potentially punished for playing. They risk there MMR.

Therefore, I think players are switching to alts leaving there mains at a desirable position on the ladder. This causes the same sort of confused match making we had as people were completing there placement matches.

I believe there is a secondary mechanic as well. There are relatively few playing after the initial rush. This forces the matchmaker to search further to gather a match together.

This is what I meant by “narrow the range.” The matchmaker is grabbing players at wildly different levels, I believe based on observation. That causes poor match quality.

So there is at least some agreement that clones should have an effect, be it on creation or on death.

ANET should consider the idea. Phantasm, PU and Shatter were all designed with the use of clone death traits. Removing that synergy had far reaching effects.

GladConcept.4650:

I think fishball was trying to point out that by not taking into account number of games played, it allows the pros to abuse the system.

That’s a reasonable summary of what I was trying to communicate.

Alts is a whole other issue.

Returning to the topic;

The situation as it stands encourages players not to play. I think that the match quality is decreasing because fewer are playing. If you queue up, you risk your MMR.

Another reason match quality may be decreasing is the presence of so many alts.

There’s an obvious issue here. I have 85 games and have fallen 2 division in the past day or so* . I play and in so doing risk my MMR.

*(possibly due to wider mmr ranges. I went from over 50% wins to closer to 40% in a matter of a day.)

Our “top players in the game” have as few as 27 games. This creates two issues;

First, there’s a strong incentive NOT to play since playing risks one’s win ratio. The last thing PvP needs is to encourage players not to play.

This may be a reason for the wider ranging matchmaking. Too few players are willing to risk there standing by playing.

Second, that small a number of games is not a very reliable test of skill.

ANET should take into account games played AND win ratio.

I’m getting consistently stomped, lost 2 divisions today.

I believe the MMR range for the matchmaking has been extended to make for faster matches.

It was going so well… I had been over a 50% win rate, now I am just happy to lose by less than 200 points.

The MMR range for matches needs to be narrowed… Faster queues mean nothing if match quality suffers.

The rewards for losing matches exist to provide motivation if your side is losing. Remove them and we’d be right back to afk’ers and abandoned matches and falling population.

PvP is voluntary. Remove the rewards, remove the players.

wow.. 6 straight crush losses Did anet suddenly change the algorythm again?
Well, I guess I’m back to playing a minimum.

Windwalker.7421:

You can’t balance a profession around these “pets” and then constantly neglect the fact that these pets can not survive in a realistic PvP environment! (Especially since none of them really have a particularly strong attack outside of maybe iZerker)

Phantasms like the iWarden and iSwordsman should also be MUCH MUCH harder to kill then ranged attacking pets.

I’d have mixed feelings about tougher Phantasms. They are illusions, after all. And the circle of the conversation turns. Clone death would be and was compensation for the weakness of our illusions.

The build was removed for one reason. That was that you could do damage simply by dodging and killing a clone. Never mind that other classes do damage by the act of dodging.

The fact remains that without clone death, Phantasm, PU and Shatter builds are all excessively weak.

SlimChance.6593:

Agree, no clone on death traits.

The other day, I read a post in the PvP section. The poster was observing that when playing against the druid, occasionally he loses the druid as a target. And wonder if it was a bug or something.

Of course, the what he was observing was the “taunt” from the pet. (certain pets anyway.)

Then it occurred to me….. why don’t clones cast “taunt”. They are supposed to deceive our enemy’s? “Can’t see the forest from the tree’s.. kinda thing.” I know it will never happen, but I just thought it would be kind of a cool and very annoying gameplay element. Having 3 clones out, all casting taunt every 10-15 seconds.

I actually suggested this in a recent design a new Mesmer contest. That would be amazing. We can wish.

To reintroduce Clone death traits. Wait, listen a moment.

From the dev comments, ANET seems to find itself in a spot. They would like to nerf Chronophantasma and condi Mesmer generally. Yet, they recognize that to do so would once more put Mesmer pretty much out of PvP.

If history is a guide, they will nerf it and accept Mesmer returning to bottom tier.

Clone death was a strong underpinning that made Phantasm, Shatter and PU builds work. Without that synergy and some compensation for instantly cleaved clones… Well the rarity of PU and Phantasm builds speaks for itself. Shatter is played, but the Mesmer accepts being underpowered as the price going in.

We need those traits back if we don’t wish to be funneled into one build. When that one build is nerfed we’ll have nowhere to go.

This is the best season to date. remove class stacking and duo queue and it’d be golden.

DeanBB.4268:

How exactly would Anet “remove a build?” Anet doesn’t dictate what gets played, players choose.

Why isn’t this in the PvP section?

Actually ANET did completely remove the clone death build. A prominent staffer playing thief on the old skyhammer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

He complained about it on the stream and said it would be removed and it was. Those traits and that entire strategy no longer exist.

This is a major reason that Phantasm builds are no longer used as well

This season is the best matchmaking and closest/most competitive matches I have seen.

Well done ANET.

There have been some glitches and bad matches, but, I’m at a 50% win ratio. To me, that’s near miraculous after seeing streaks of up to 68 losses in previous seasons.

I’m seeing the smallest skill differences and the closest matches ever. There have been some off matches but not many.

My win ratio is currently 50/50. That’s saying something, considering that in past seasons I saw loss streaks as long as 68.

I maintain that DH needs to be addressed.

The match quality this time around is amazing in comparison to seasons 1-4.
(For the record I’m currently rated 1210.)

Two things would improve it:

Remove class stacking or force parity stacking. Most of the matches I’ve lost have had a disproportionate number of DH on the other side.

Go pure solo queue instead of the compromise solo/duo.

It’s true that progress is slow and farming to a quick Legendary is largely a non-thing. Thank The Six.

I think the current matchmaking is the best I’ve seen yet. Most games are hard fought and close.

I have to admit; The new matchmaking is working well.

It would be that much better as pure solo queue. Now just remove the scourge of class stacking and the game will most definitely be on.

I didn’t say grind. What I said was that playing a minimal number of games doesn’t risk dropping anywhere near as much as a person playing regularly. It’s an exploit.

The leader board should consider win percentage AND number of games played.

Here’s direct evidence. Number 3 on the leader board has all of 10 games.

The leader board ought to be based on a combination of games played and win %. That was really a pretty obvious exploit and should have been prevented.

All I have to do is count the DH on each side.

I don’t think it’s the MMR, it’s the class stacking.

That was the way it was before. The queues were combined to lower queue time. I suspect it was also an attempt to force people to team.

Whatever the case, combining the queues has been negative for PvP.

The screenshot shows a whole 10 games played. Who’d you duo with in placements?

Show us what your score looks like 40 games in ( me ) or 100. Until then, you’re not really showing anything significant.

Allowing 5 man exploit squads, err I mean “organized teams,” would make things that much worse.

Learn to play on your own. This season is a test of individual skills.

I’ve lost the last 6 matches by an average of just over 234 points. The worst match was lost by 552 points, the best by 68 points.

This matchmaking is not showing much promise so far.