Guild Wars 2

HHR LostProphet.4801:

This is the case because the encounters in GW2 are too easy and that’s becasue ANet things that a large portion of their players are braindead monads (see NPE changes).
So this wont change.

After running the Labyrinth for 2 weeks I think so too actually. It was a lot of fun but NONE of those I was running with knew anything about the champ’s mechanics. So yeah, lets make all bosses harder as all people who play gw2 are pros.

Kings.7491:

@Jana
I don’t want to go in discussion about the WvW or PvP aspects of this mechanic because there it actually have some use, it’s only in PvE that I don’t see why it exists.

You don’t seem to be happy
I think it has got less use in wvw especially when the opponent doesn’t even have to hit me and that example was to “show” you that it could be worse.

Edit: We all get your point but it’s just the way this game is. It’s like “Hey, we mobs are here, come play with us”. You are slowed down because you’re wounded and I agree that it can be annoying as there’s literally no space in this world without mobs. That’s why I love my thief for node farming as I can CnD on a mob and run through the next few stealthed then CnD again and so on. But I’m also slowed but not knocked down.

No idea if it still is like this but it used to be that one has been slowed down and wouldn’t regain life if targeted by an enemie in wvw. They didn’t even have to hit me to have that effect. That was fun! But at least I always knew when we had a scout following us or when someone was watching me.

S/D thieves usually run zerkers which makes sense as that build isn’t for critical hits. I’ve also met some full zerker D/P thieves. Valk has got the advantage that it has got some more vitality and D/P and D/D usually rely on backstabs which have got a 100% critical hit chance anyway as one usually uses hidden killer as a trait. So you have the extra vitality. Around 50% citical hit chance is enough, I ran with assassin weapons at first and sigil of perception until I found that I don’t really need 60% critical hit chance and switched to zerkers and sigil of bloodlust (few thieves do that I think most go for air and fire but I like stacking sigils for whatever reason) for more power.
The advantage of D/D is that it takes less initative to stealth, it is faster due to only one skill and the stealth lasts longer. It’s harder to pull off though. And a D/P thief can trash me if there aren’t enough things to CnD on around.
I think most thieves are okay with “running around slowly”, they use infiltrator’s signet, steal, shortbow, runes of the pack or whatever to get to their target. I’m a bad thief, I use signet of shadows, can’t get used to anything else.

Maugetarr.6823:

D/D, full glass (or close to it) + SB and no stealth utilities. Pretty challenging to stay alive.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0pFOxrJ8PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TVSBwAPOEAmVCG5IAcT9HsK/Iu/Ae9BLeAAAOBABAQAuZb2m3MgbezjezjezSBIoyI-w

I wonder why… that build is focussed on dodging not dealing damage.

I think some P/P thief trashed me but it wasn’t a 1v1, so I’m not willing to call him a master.

Favourite build video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdx-ovYCqhQ
S/D and D/D, D/P are power builds – but a lot of thieves now use SB as their second weaponset, that’s why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-tSlT2ZKdw
Another example for thief with SB, chose this video because it was recorded after the april patch and uses SB. He plays P/D in this, not sure if really condi or if that’s his celestial build. (I don’t really like P/D that’s why I didn’t pay attention to it).

All 3 weaponsets have got a different playstyle so it’s very hard to say “this or that weaponset is the most challenging and you won’t be a real thief unless you have mastered it” as maybe even a master of P/P can be dangerous. (P/P is the worst set, no matter what anyone says, so maybe that’s the most challenging – I still wouldn’t use it though ; )) So, try it out and see what suits you best.

Star Ace.5207:

Mr. Whiteside recently commented on his Raid CDI that he uses something else not “zerk” on PvE out of personal choice, not just due to lack of skill. That is my point. You don’t need to say “GW2 is intended to be played without passive stats if you are really skilled” in order to use Berserker’s gear-you use it because you enjoy it, it’s efficient, and is what fits your personality/playstyle (or any particular character, is what your guild rather have you use, etc.). It is basically a common myth, based on those few players that really follow the meta (as not everybody is as “meta” as they think), and not on facts about 100% of players. No need to preach it as “GW2 as intended”, because not even the makers of the game believe in that (Mr. Hrouda, or whoever.)

I know you commented on someone elses quote but I think it’s pretty unfair to search developer’s/dev’s quotes and try to interpret whether or not they wanted zerker’s to be the meta.
Try to look it this way: Is there a way to make the meta of this game non zerker? I don’t think so actually. We have the condition cap due to technical reasons. Half of the sigils and a bunch of traits depend on critical hits, so in order to make zerker the non meta the whole game would need an overhaul.

I don’t have a problem with mesmers actually, but I’m D/D, so the more clones the better.

It’s the same with other classes, no matter which I’m on I never use all weaponskills as there’s always at least one which is situational.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Jana.6831:

Engis are too complex to see a pattern only that they always use their elite first.

It really isn’t too complex. One of the main builds spike rotation is something like:

Magnet pull, prybar, overcharged shot, rifle 2 (net), throw nades (usually chill), throw wrench.

It doesn’t matter though. If you’re overly predictable, for any class, it can be punished.

This goes for any class: Think with your brain, not with your rotations.

Unless they use pistol/shield and a lot of them don’t really work with stuns. I’m not complaining btw. I was just thinking about what the classes I face usually do.

Edit: And the OP is about how poor the thief design is because they don’t use chains.

Ok, lets see:
Mesmer: Spam clones, destroy clones, spam clones
Guard: Aegis, GS 5, GS 4, GS 1, 1, 1, some skill, rinse and repeat
Ranger: LB 2, LB 4, LB 1,1,1, LB 2…
Warrior: Hammer stun stun stun stun stun stun
Thief: Basilisk Venom, burst, steal, dodge, shadow refuge
Engis are too complex to see a pattern only that they always use their elite first. Don’t know too much about eles… and necros, well, my arch enemies.
Looks as if most professions are always the same and all of them use some kind of chain, so I don’t really see why we need another QQ thread as that’s what it is, sorry, no matter how often you say it isn’t.

Yeah, but they aren’t as mobile as the other thieves builds.

A commander once told me that while everybody else on our server was a potato I was none. That saddens me. I love potatoes.

Exeon.4358:

Zerker gear belongs in PvE, Soldiers in WvW

No, sorry, some classes/builds do way better with zerker in wvw – this game isn’t that simple.

hybrid.5027:

InfernoHero.5687:

Flamethrower engi in soldier’s gear is fun

I do not believe that many people would agree with that opinion.

I actually do – the most badkitten engi I know runs soldier’s gear – In wvw though.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Let’s be actually real here. You are talking specifically about D/D. I cannot agree more and I consider this setup is a 1-trick-pony for the very reasons you mentioned. However not every thief set functions like D/D.

I originally thought the same thing about S/D, it being a 1-trick-pony, but the more I see people like sizer play it, the less I feel that way.

I have to do a lot to get to my one trick pony – I may be able to spam CnD when fighting a boss, in wvw that’s very different. And actually that’s how I want to play thief. To me S/D is rather boring as there’s not so much thought behind how to hit, when to hit and from where to hit.
Still need to level an ele but from what I have seen only eles and engis have some kind of variety in their “attack chains” every class, every build tries to get their bursts.

Edit: And maybe necros, but they are a mystery to me anyway…

fireflyry.7023:

I played my first character as a condition Thief.
…
If you go off the forums and the meta then yeah…cookie cutter is the only way but your really losing out if you get caught up in that imho.

So condi thief isn’t the meta? :o

Well it isn’t for pve and I feel I don’t really do that good as a condi thief in pve – the opposite is the case in wvw. But that’s me.

Pandaman.4758:

Weapon skills were tied to experience gained, not number of hits, so it was possible to instantly unlock all of a given weapon’s skills by swapping to it right before finishing a high level mob (dropping summoned weapons and kits in the case of elementalists and engineers). I was able to unlock all weapon skills for every class this way in just a few minutes, though I guess that supports the argument that people weren’t experimenting with weapons at early levels more than it supports the idea that it was easy to unlock skills :p

Oh, that sounds like fun and every new player thinks of this! – And I guess it didn’t depend on the experience but the kill otherwise you would get your weaponskill faster the more experience you get for the kill which means that lower levels would have gotten their skills faster but the contrahery was the case. Or maybe you got the skills faster the less experience you got.. but I actually don’t think so.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

WvW perhaps, but in PvP, it intentionally remained the same. Crit damage in PvP is the same as it was at launch.

One of their main targets with the crit damage-> Ferocity change was amulets, rings, and trinkets. These pieces had hugely disproportional crit damage stats before the change (exotic zerker amulet, for example, had more crit damage than exotic zerker chest, legs, and helm combined, but only had ~1/3 of the Power stat, despite Power being the primary stat). Indeed, these pieces saw the heaviest drop in effectiveness with other gear being almost identical in performance.

You’re right about the crit damage changes in pvp*, I just wanted to explain why there are “profession balances” as the person (was it you?) I replied to seems to think it’s because of PvE. Edit: Yeah, it was you ; )

• Edit²: And I also said that I have no idea why crit damage has been changed that much – it might well be that that was because of all the threads like these and thus because of pve – but it imbalanced wvw and since both are combined expect some changes which will balance wvw and imbalance pve.

Olvendred.3027:

I prefer the old one, myself. Unlocking weapon skills was an interesting thing to do while levelling, and it got you to try out all the different weapons which you normally wouldn’t touch in PvE.

Actually had the converse effect for me: My first character, a ranger who I mained for 3 months, had GS, LB, SB , axe/axe and torch unlocked. I never tried horn or sword. And I guess I’m not the only one. I hated having to unlock new weaponskills, although looking the bar fillig up had something, as it meant that I had to stay in a lower level area for longer. And it’s not that common that the exact weapons drop, especially when someone doesn’t know about EotM.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Most changes are because of pvp and wvw, I don’t know why they nerfed crit damage that drastically as it means that in pvp/wvw condi is now “OP”, so they will have to nerf that eventually and knowing anet they won’t tone it down a notch but go full frontal, then they will have to nerf crit/power again and so on.
The reason why zerker is the best in every dungeon is that it requires knowledge of game, boss and class mechanics – once people know all of that every dungeon is a cake – you can do that with pvt gear as well, just takes a bit longer and then you might get in troubles with your cooldowns as taking down enemies takes well, longer (unless you can’t crit them). I don’t know about fractals though, maybe there it’s different.

Edit: In general: All pugs are elitists:
Zerker pugs: That guy didn’t take that boss down fast enough, that noob, should’ve gone zerkers, pvt is rubbish.
Pvt pugs: That guy died all the time, such a noob, should’ve gone pvt, zerker is rubbish. Maybe all people should try some teamwork instead of only focussing the gear choices.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.

Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.

The main difference between mobs and players is that players think and don’t just use chain 1,2,3,4,5, 6,1,2,3,4,5,7 – you’d be surprised how many zerkers are in wvw though, it’s a lot, me being one of them.

Did someone mention that the scaling got nerfed with the april patch as well? Before that the scaling was more effective and playing in lower level zones could be dangerous for a fully geared 80 if not cautious. I liked it better that way as I had more game than now.

Leamas.5803:

That said, I play solo way too much to run any form of glass canon.

Which playmode? I also solo nearly everything, that with no matter what build, 2 of my toons are either valk/zerker or full zerker (my necro) and they’re doing better than the rest I’ve got – I still don’t know anything about necros though, I just faceroll the keyboard.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I can see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree on my perception of the game being wrong. You seem to think that what you witnessed on that pug is the norm for players specced with less focus to DPS. While I agree that some outright horrors can happen with situationally bad, non-dps specs, I still do not agree that DPS is the best way to go, every time.

And my mindset applies to PVP (less so) and WVW ( more so) , so If you want to challenge it on those planes, feel free.

unless.. I’m misunderstanding something somehow. Idk.

Yeah, you do. But how to explain it..

Not mastered boss, class or game mechanics: Zerker isn’t for you, everybody in your group who is zerker is put at risk as the group itself can’t clear fast enough (it’s more complicated than that actually as also boon sharing, skills and so on play a role)
Mastered game, class and boss mechanics: Zerker is for you, you will be more efficent in everything including reviving allys.

I think my perception of this game is pretty good, don’t ask me do look how many hours I’ve played. I have been against zerker for the longest time until the april nerf forced me to go nearly full zerker to be able to survive (thief main – it might not be that extreme for other classes)

Azure The Heartless.3261:

See, I can respect that.

I tend to get along really well with the new players though, so I like my playstyle as is. Theres a community that doesn’t know boss mechanics and makes silly mistakes, as well as a community that is the inverse. I don’t know which portion is bigger, so I specced to help out the portion that stands out more.

Totally doesnt take me 5 minutes to rev someone though.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Healer + defense line.

Doesnt take me long to melt down bosses either. probably markedly slower than full zerk, but well enough.

I wasn’t talking about you but rather in general, but it has happened to me, the exact same situation in a very bad dungeon pug – I made a lot of mistakes myself though, but I kind of guess it would’ve been easier if that guy wasn’t trying to rez someone in a red circle for 5 mins and then took 6 minutes to kill a mob – we would’ve been able to wp a lot faster.

Just saying that your perception of this game is kind of wrong and PvE isn’t the largest part of the game either actually.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I bought zerker gear. Tried it out. It was fun, but I ended up not liking it because in the event that I had people downed on specific bosses, I’d be deadlocked. Melt if I tried to help them, melt if I let them die.

I dropped zerker armor for knight/soldier, kept the weapons, and added a knight/soldier/zerker mix to my accessories. put points into defense for armored attack, and slotted bloodlust to recoup a portion of the power.

I still get to play like I used to, but now if someone downs I can grit my teeth and rev them to get them back up without melting, even under direct fire.

I get a lot of “<3”’s when driving a train for that.

I find playing the buffer between full wipes and wins more engaging, since I’m keeping track of downed while I fight.

Just something extra to do.

I’m nearly full zerker, I rez people by either melting down the enemies they’ve targeted so they will rally, or by being the target of the boss by attacking him, or by rezzing them. All of that is possible when I know the boss/mob mechanics and don’t make stupid mistakes (happens). In most cases it does no good if you’re able to stand in fire for 5 mins to rez someone while everybody else gets downed, it would be more effective to kill the boss fast and then revive the fallen ally.
You seem to talk solemly about open world PvE events and a wide range of players are doing these, so people who still haven’t noticed that standing in red circles is bad, commanders who haven’t figured out the boss mechanics themselves and have no idea how to counter it, thus their advises are rather suicidal and so on. So yes, it might appear to you that being tanky is the better choice because you have to deal with people who don’t know too much about the game (no offense btw, I’ve been a noob myself) but that only applies to these situations, not to the game in general. And I’m also able to kill everything with autoattack on my condi engi, so it’s not just zerker.

Edit: Spelling

No it is for D/P but it hasn’t got condi clears.

No, oxtred, you’re talking about S/D, this guy runs a D/P build.

Kocoff, try the full Shadow Arts line with everything that removes conditions and heals, instead of the Trickery line. If you’re feeling a bit more confident you can try your current build again.
I’m running 06620 btw (but as a D/D thief, so I need a bit more help).

Edit: This setup is good for wvw but probably not so good for pvp.

I’m not sure whether this is a bug or I imagine it or I am missing some invulnerability which doesn’t let me use cloak and dagger on oppenents.
But it happens that often lately that I think it’s weird. Sometimes CnD works, other times it doesn’t – was running through a thief (while using CnD) and a necro who likely were all out of useful skills as they were nearly downed and got no stealth, my log doesn’t list any skills that would buff them and the third guy, whatever the class, was long downed. I don’t think they had a trap as they were capping one of our towers and were likely out of supply. Same happened with some mesmer clones (can they be buffed?) and a lot of other classes all in “open field” (to explain whether or not they could’ve used a stealth trap) – but randomly – so is it me or is it a bug?
Edit: And I wasn’t revealed.

Edit: I think I know what the problem is, I unchecked autotarget, so I might be targetting different stuff while trying to hit the guy in front of me. So: dismiss unless you have an advise for me how to solve the targetting mess.

Edit³: No, I still have autotargeting and it still happens mostly with enemy players in wvw though.

@ Guhracie.3419

Umm… what? So you say I have no right to answer qustions and don’t have to give advise if someone didn’t specifically ask for it? Are you serious?

Ps: The trait requirements have changed since April and Dulfy hasn’t updated since then, maybe you’ll see the bigger picture now.

Guhracie.3419:

Jana.6831:

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

DD’s larger point was that if you don’t have any characters under the new trait system, or if you do but you’ve unlocked most/all of the traits, there’s no way in-game to see the current tasks in order to properly kitten them. Or to compare against outside sources to make sure they’re correct.

The six maps to be completed (and I believe these are all for adept-level traits) are Lornar’s Pass, Dredgehaunt Hills, Blazeridge Steppes, Gendarran Fields, Fields of Ruin and Harathi Hinterlands.

No, sorry I read it otherwise: a question whether or not map completion is still required, a claim that both websites aren’t updated and a suggestion how to fix this in the future. I replied to the question and the claim. I have no opinon on the suggestion and guess I don’t have to have one =)

Edit: If you’re puzzled because I suggested searching Dulfy’s for the missing events: We’re with this system for now half a year, it will likely take a while until something is changed.

tofumon.5924:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Only about 3 map completes from the original change were altered to be “fight random chain event boss here” to get those traits.

Wait isn’t that pretty much just as bad cause now you have to wait for the random events to start and then go through the whole chain? At least map complete is something you can actually measure…

Yeah it is, map completion can’t be bugged and you won’t have to wait until something starts. Or encounter other problems like someone who had apperantly started the Fleshgrazer event chain without knowing it, which left me unable to start it. Guested to another server to do it and was surprised so many people were around to help me, but they only wanted the Box of captured light :| – shortly before I died some other people came though, so it wasn’t that bad.

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

Well, I just answered your “Without venoms thieves are useless”.
No other class can spam blast like thieves, no matter whether heavy, light or medium geared.
It’s your choice whether or not YOU want a thief in “your” zerg, but know their potential before you claim anything (especially on the thief forums). And actually thieves don’t have to be zerker, they can wear other gear too.

Arantheal.7396:

Ofc you can still blobb around with this class in zerker gear, and I guess, unless you bump into a ranger or engi, roaming is fine for thief as well.

The only useful thing a thief provides (and to justify its presence in a organized zerg) is venoms, blindspam and poison spam.

Rangers are the easiest class to kill for me, in general.
Zerg thieves: Shortbow 2 – Blastfinisher. Can blast an ele waterfield twice or thrice, a ranger’s waterfield 5 times, healing for ~2k each time. and it’s not just waterfields, also fire: stacking might, static: stacking swiftness and so on. Rather useful stuff for a zerg.

I know (P/D)
Well, I guess I will let myself being surprised if someone can really pull this off – or I might try it myself, a third gear can’t hurt, right?

OP: A lot of people say they have a rotation – I have none. I might have one if I were maining a different class but thanks to no cooldowns I’m not really forced to have one. I just watched a GW1 pvp video – I haven’t played that game and it kind of looks like chess. So no dodges, no evades, if you were planning your attack you could be rather certain that your opponent would be at the same place when you’re finished with your chain.
And I actually enjoy playing against D/x thieves because I have to think a lot more than when fighting a different class.

Carpboy.7145:

Jana.6831:

@ Bazzoong: Why would I want condition damage on my D/D – set?

Death blossom gives 3 stacks of long lasting bleeds, poison on auto, still uses power and precision with backstab

Ok, would a backstab build with 00446 or 20246 really be that great? I can see people trying to pull off DB with this but that’s about it. And it might work but only with a lot of effort. I think this set would be great for P/D thieves they don’t really need dire anyway.

@ Bazzoong: Why would I want condition damage on my D/D – set?

I guess it is intended as that the villagers will never win – and since they’re turned into ghosts in the end everybody wins – so take this as a “troll game”.
The points you’ve mentioned are true but I’ve been the last villager alive some times and got the highest points – I hid at a normal place, not something ghosts usually can’t reach or have been feared endlessly to get high points – it was usual play.
I don’t know how to make it better but I’m for keeping it.

Then you are likely a tanky build, like soldiers.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Exploring the open world, even if its just to turn helpless rabbits into candy corn is still better than hanging around in the labyrinth all day.

The labyrinth actually teaches teamplay and some fight mechanics.

AntiBodies.8342:

snip

No, actually traits are too important to be locked behind RNG – the problem we have now is basically RNG as you can’t tell whether the event will be up, whether enough people will be around, if the event will succeed.

Not what I want

I actually don’t know what I want – umm maybe: I would have wanted something like personal story to unlock traits and have all greens blues for free and have them at level 20 max.

Edit: Confused the trait colours

The Labyrinth isn’t empty – thanks to megaservers and taxis =)

Oh my, you kids.
I love the balm and haven’t done any farming with it as I think the idea alone is great and plan to keep the potions I’ve got for times in which I’m bored – but hey everything has to be nerfed because everybody makes a farm out of everything, then others come and “troll” and then… sigh

runeblade.7514:

I hunted traits with only 4 characters so far. Most of them were created pre-patch some of the others were created for PvP/WvW.

Ok, so you had all classes before the April patch – did you ever experiment with builds or did you always use cookie cutter builds?

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Did what you quoted indicate that that was my opinion? No, it’s just useless to be able to get traits if one can’t see or use them – only verterans would know how to get them and their value – so my proposal would be to be able to obtain and see traits as soon as one is able to use them.

runeblade.7514:

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

True, but thanks to no traits until level 30 and then only the Major Traits, as far as I remember, means that uplevels are bait in wvw and maybe pvp – they are severly disadvantaged – if you don’t believe me try it – get the latest gear and try wvw with only one or 2 traits.

runeblade.7514:

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

This point wasn’t about whether or not to buy traits but that an uplevel might need certain traits but can’t get these at below level 30, 60 or 80. Again; try to survive in wvw without condi removal.

Edit: Stuff

If enemies are being forced to respawn they know the other server is outnumbered, so they might bring some more people.
Pretty sure that everybody revives at the same speed – not sure what you mean with that.
This topic might have been better in the wvw forums.
Being outnumbered is fun (not always but often – one just has to learn how to adapt – it is possible)