(edited by Knyx.5926)
@ Flammenwerfer
I would love collision detection but I highly doubt that will ever be seen, probably a huge pain to code, implement much less I am sure a TON of bugs would follow from it alone.
Fixing rendering is definitely top on the list. However I think since people are complaining about rendering in spvp as well, once it is fixed… you know… it may be found that thief is now even more lackluster in wvwvw, and will prob need a buff in another area. You never know, the rendering issue could be just an extreme that makes the class look a little overpowered or balanced but extremely annoying, when without it it could be a worthless or near worthless class (not all thiefs are built 1 hit wonder glass cannon either) (because it is not like the thief is really doing it on purpose, most of them anyway).
As for the orbs I say keep them the same.
As for the outmanned buff. I think It should instead be a buff with the following bonuses:
Siege equipment cost from vendor reduced by 50%
Supply required for siege equipment reduced by 25%
Run speed increased by 5%
Magic Find increased by 25%
This way, the smaller populated server with the outmanned buff, will not only be able to deploy more siege equipment and faster to make up for the number difference. The magic find also in turn increases gold making ability, for said siege equipment.
A quality of life change (effecting the entire game not just wvwvw) that I was hoping would be added to the game when I played my first BWE… which I have never seen anyone talk about… is Jump height.
I think it would be definitely more creative and make much more sense if the game’s design had equal value to jump height as it does movement speed. For instance, abilities to increase jump height passive or active depending on your class ofc.
(I don’t want this to turn into some flame session at my expense just because I am using 2 classes as an example so keep in mind, I mean nothing by the mention of those 2 classes)
Some Warrior abilities have the animation and ability to leap quite a distance and land on the target, but classes like thief and others in lighter armor cannot? Is does not make much sense to me, but meh its just a game. I would think though thief which is “supposed” to be the most mobile would have some sort of jump height increase as well. Agility is not just determined by run speed, and it feels kind of “been there, done that” since most games have used only movement speed as a baseline to increase or decrease. I think jump height being on equal ground even if it was just swiftness buffed jump heigh as well, and maybe certain classes had an active or passive that let you jump 2-8x higher then current would be a neat addition.
Obviously there would be good arguments that it wouldn’t be right for certain classes to be able to jump on top of walls in say wvwvw. But since this is just a theorycraft really, the max could be capped so that couldn’t happen in most situations, unless the community was willing to have it set to only 1-2 classes that could in fact jump onto walls.
:)
You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.
Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.
Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).
lol this guy again. Don’t bother he is a troll. You can check his post history, but You can also tell just by the fist sentence.
i got a good laugh from saying it is okay if the initiative free auto attack is the strongest. Why have initiative then? There is not a single ability in any thief weapon set that has enough conditions/lockdown to make up for having #1 chain being the strongest damage in ANY set. Maybe if PW just hit once and quick without self rooting and did a 2s daze or 1s+ stun but low damage, or if Headshot did a 5 seconds or more chill or something… just maybe
What if quickness and assassin’s signet was a much smaller buff based on a fixed number of abilities?
Examples:
Quickness: Increases IAS of the next 4 abilities used by 33% (down from 100%) duration increased to 8 seconds. Class utility based Drawbacks remain as long as the quickness is up so either duration ends or 4 abilities are used. Does not stack.
Time warp would still be viable as it still effects allies as well, and has no downside. Also the fact it does not stack makes the pulsing of time warp balanced.
Proc based quickness like from talents or sigils will have to have their durations/ proc chance bumped up a tad as well.
Assassin’s signet:
Increase the effect (Damage/healing/Condition damage) and range of the next 3 abilities by 33%. duration 10 seconds. cooldown remains unchanged. (buffed range is rounded up EX: 900 will now be 1200 instead of 1197)
With these changes keep in mind the self root on pistol whip will have to be removed. The ability is nothing without the 100% quickness, and a self root makes 0 (ZERO) sense on a mobility based class. If the stun is too much without a self root, then change the stun to a daze. If the invulnerability frames are too much without a self root, then take it away and make the base attack speed a bit faster.
(edited by Knyx.5926)
Actually, Id like to add I have no problem admitting I transferred to SoS from Maguuma in fact ( was on Maguuma from headstart). This was however at the beginning of last matchup. I work from 7am -4pm sometimes 6 pm EST, whenever I would try to wvwvw… I was in a que for 1 hr and gave up. Weekends came along and there were ques for 4+ hrs, with people telling me they were in que for 6+ hours.
You can check my post history if you need to, I posted a thread asking for a server with quick ques, multiple people suggested SoS. So I moved there. They have a good bunch of players I will say, so does Maguuma (the times I could actually get in). I like fighting you guys, nothing but respect.
Like tonight is a good example. I had crazy laughs harassing you guys on your borderlands today with my condition thief, I would jump right into the biggest bunch of your groups, drop caltrops, deathblossom and dagger storm back towards my zerg.
You managed to kill me quite a few times with a couple immobilizes and knockdowns.
But it was great fun nonetheless.
I hope you guys get a matchup that is even ground and who knows maybe one day I will be back if the ques get out of hand here too.
Signed,
Your loving Assassin’s Creed Thief, Varknyn
P.S. DB, good fighting you too.
lmao @ calling backstabs “minimal finese”, coming from a pistol whip thief.
And he is correct, considering PW is bugged and has a self root on a MOBILITY based class
The only thing I’ve read about the devs saying condition damage is weak with is destroying objects or breaking gates. I don’t see how getting up to like 150 damage per tick on a bleed is bad, when you can get like 15 stacks by yourself no problem. If they really buffed the damage on condition damage per tick, it’d be like a burst build but you can stack toughness and vitality with it.
I think your worry for a buff is them like doubling it or something. If anything it may be a 10-15% increase if any at all. Ofc you could be right about it only weak in their eyes for objects and gates. Personally I think bleed is fine, but Poison is the most lackluster, I would trade all the venom abilities for 1 that did a decent duration burning.
Ill take death blossom spam over P/D in wvwvw on my thief ANY day of the week. Combine it with caltrops and you are golden. P/D is better for spvp and 1v1. But if you use it in wvwvw you are basically screwing yourself because you are doing like a fraction of what any other class can do better. Where as the Deathblossom build you can change the tide of the fight. 1v1s and 1v2s might feel good if you win in wvwvw but they don’t count for jack either way in terms of contribution.
The problem which supposedly the devs agree with is the scaling in which condition damage stat relates to the actual damage per tick of the bleed/poison/burning is underpowered. So expect it to get buffed
Yes, that is exactly what I was aiming for. Most people just read the first paragraph and that is it, then thought i was trying to turn the thief into a necro when I wasn’t and by reading my actual changes they would see that.
Full Carrion gear.
Shadow step in zerg -> DB*3 -> Steal (stealth), use stolen item -> DB*2 -> roll for init -> DB*2 -> Dodge(caltrops)*2 inside of zerg -> DB -> Shadow return.
Hello, you just spread a minimum of 18 bleeds on the majority of the zerg while being completely immune to them during the whole.
Hey no need to thank me! <tries to unglue OP from his leg>
That doesnt make you immune. DBs evade doesnt cover the entire animation. Also you don’t have utility caltrops which is a staple ability for bleed thief.
Go full Carion gear. 30 Trickery, 20 in acrobatics and 25 in Shadow arts (or you can always do 25 in deadly arts). 2 Carion daggers. Shortbow.
Hide in Shadows interchangeable with Signet of malice.
Caltrops, Shadow refuge, Signet of shadows, and dagger storm.
Run through your zerg into the enemy zerg, or around the enemy zerg and come up behind them. Put down shadow refuge to find the right moment or to naturally prevent you from popping. Drop caltrops, hit DB 2-3 times and dagger storm toward your own zerg. So far this is the most contribution you can get in wvwvw, any other build either completely relies on long cooldowns or is glass cannon and s only good fighting the lone soldier, which is not really contributing.
you will have like 18k-20k hp with no orb buffs. 2300-2400 armor and 1400 Condition damage. I use 2 Superior rune of the krait, and 4 superior rune of the Undead
You also realize divinity does not add to condition damage right? lol…
And yet it both increases the condition damage in my stats window and makes my actual conditions do more damage.
I’m going to stop here, as I’m not really sure you play GW2 anymore.
likewise lol. It increases Power not condition damage. it has 10 to Power, Precision, Toughness, and vitality. Im guessing you think the power increase from points in deadly arts also increase your condition damage? That would be duration sonny. With a total of 60 to each. It does not increase secondaries like Condition damage, healing power, etc.
and no SoM doesnt proc off caltrops. But keep trolling.
Doesn’t heal for me.
That is no where enough condition damage to be viable, and that is not reaching anywhere that DPS unless you are talking total DPS with like 10 targets standing still in the caltrops field, in which case is still nothing for damage with that little condition damage and no duration additions. You also realize divinity does not add to condition damage right? lol…
You are still straying from dagger/dagger by focusing on utility and elite slots.
The only way your setup is viable is with full carion gear, 30 in trickery and like 20 in acro and SA. In which case condition damage is still your focus stat. I have tested the different sets that would matchup well and since we lack a Precision+Vitality+Condition damage gear combination, Carion is where it is at.
I use this in wvwvw as all other sets are really lackluster and even though you may feel good and contributing by taking out that solo lone ranger enemy with other builds that is not helping his side, doesn’t mean you are helping yours either.
Tulsin you are clearly trolling and now I have to report it as such. Caltrops healing from SoM?
1500-1800 dps from caltrops AND no condition damage? lol? did you even read what you wrote…
LDB for evade? the one that is shorter then the animation and a dodge roll?
Endurance gain from main hand? you mean the tiny amount?
Yea obviously a troll
Still you are rolling multiple builds into 1 impossible one. You can’t build for all that at once, much less be viable.
To get that healing per second, is only obtainable through dagger storm. So again….
Since when does dagger/dagger have caltrops? Since when does dagger/dagger have dagger storm? last i checked those were utility and elite slots. Not dependent on weapon choice. Neither is signet of malice.
25 stacks of bleeding without condition damage is a joke, unviable damage. 25 stacks of bleeding without some Con-duration is also dumb. Stacking all those tank stats on dagger/dagger still is not viable. You have Sword/Dagger which is the most viable for that, with Sword/pistol second to S/d
So you are still posting claim to an unviable, impossible build, that does neither good AOE damage or single target much less tank for crap
Still thinking it is realigning toward a playstyle is still not reading the OP past the first paragraph, this is becoming very troll like.
To get signet of malice to heal well outside of spvp and on things other then just dagger storm you have to stack some healing power not just acro. For the d/d build you are suggesting to work your main stats would be condition damage (and duration) not tanking stats…. so again… lol
It is also not the highest battlefield control asset nor does it offer the most dodge, the evade on DB is shorter then the animation itself and short then an actual dodge roll…. again…lol
25 stacks of bleeding from dagger storm? What are you smoking?
Building for perma swiftness?
lol you got like the focuses of 7 completely different builds rolled into some super saiyan build that can stack every stat to the max… Sorry we are playing different games
Otherwise ArenaNet wouldn’t have designed them in the way they are.
They aren’t designed the way you think they are, and your “class archetypes” are gross oversimplifications. You’re taking the same stance as OP, only in the conservative sense of “I want thieves to be a shallow and focused profession, just in my way and not yours”.
Actually they are not. I have fallowed GW 2 since it was announced 5 years ago (since i played GW since the day it was released), and they first of designed the classes based on archetypes (just the way i wrote them down), and diversified them from there on.
But still, thats the design core of the classes, before they went on the “every class can do everything” route.It wasn’t me who came up with the archetypes for the classes of GW 2, it was ArenaNet.
And i actually like the diversity of the classes. But i also like that they put nearly every archetype into the game they could come up with, and that made sense to.
I don’t want one archetype to be deleted, to have 2 of another.The condition master already exists, it’s the Necro (even if the Necro doesn’t have to go for conditions, and every other class can).
Again still haven’t read the OP past the first paragraph, I can tell because you are still stuck on thinking my changes have anything to do with making the thief a condition master or necro copy. ….
Well we have to agree to disagree there then. There is no viability in building around tank stats and going dagger/dagger. So that nullifies your logic and that is only one example
@ Tulisin, it looks like a diminishes the options available if you never read the OP…..
All the changes are really going is adding a few more requirements to hit the same burst if they want to build around it, whilst also adding the applications the requirements are based off of into the abilities in the same set. This is not diminishing anything, a thief can still build for crit+crit damage and power, a thief can still build for crit+condition damage, a thief can still build for power+condition damage, etc etc etc etc any combination. This just makes it so EVERY ability in the set is valid for the builds the weapon set is built around and at the same time adding a little requirement for the burst that makes the setup less of popping a cooldown and more of hitting a few weapon attacks or a frontal backstab before you do the burst damage (just using d/x as an example)
@ Asum…. yet another who did not read the OP except maybe the first paragraph…. this is getting pretty old and only looks like trolling. You just saw the word necro posted a few times there and condition damage and everyone is freaking out. If you actually read the whole thing you will realize I said changing the class to be better compared to a necro, not become a necro copy, and less comparable to a warrior.
What YOU think is the focus of a class does not mean it actually is or rather does not mean it makes sense. I am sorry but id rather have thief be more complex then be wow rogue like it is currently
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I don’t need to read further, the Thief is fine as it is. It has options for both crit/power and condition builds which are both viable paths to take. That is good design.
Same goes for me.
Besides that, Necromancer is the condition master, while Thief is the master of direct dmg (with both classes still having options for the other way).
Changing a whole class around your playstyle seems to be rather ridiculous.
If you want to manage conditions, i suggest running a necro, instead of asking for a remake of a perfectly fine class.
/E:
I agree with the point regarding the mixed skill sets though, for example the Leaping Death Blossom in the Dagger/Dagger set up is out of place.
My suggestion would be to take the condition dmg out of it, replacing it with something else, instead of changing the heart of the class (fast movement, stealth, hard hitting crits).
Not trying to change it to my playstyle. I am trying to move it away from the WoW rogue mindless class, and more to a unique and creative way and at the SAME time removing any need for the current complaints that A-net is clearly balancing based off of. I see a lot like you didn’t read it, because reading it you would realize however complex and long the changes are (do you not agree balance is indeed complex?) the changes themselves are mostly fairly small additions and tweaks.
To make it easier on readers I will show a common rotation in comparison;
A current live Backstab build will most likely cloak and dagger->Steal->Assassin signet+Backstab (after moving around the target if he has to).
With my changes instead the thief will have to make a choice to get the same backstab damage. They can either (usng the same rotation mindset) Cloak and dagger-> Steal->front backstab do a #1 chain/etc till revealed is gone then stealth again and backstab the target on the back for the same damage as live since with my changes the back positional damage on it is based on how many conditions/stacks the target has, heartseeker would be the same way in my changes. Whilst hitting the target in the front positional with backstab will just apply a bunch of long duration conditions.
Doubtful. You probably made the accusation to belittle or besmirch your ‘opponent’.
I find little merit in your idea, but your attacks against the person of those that disagree with you only robs you of your credibility. Of course, that could probably be said about most of us. Oh, why do discussions so frequently devolve into barbarism! Woe is me, etc, etc.
This is just a drawn out version of the same as saying “QQ”. There was no attack or belittling, people just have attitudes and there are observations of those attitudes.
If anything thinking it is an attack makes you lose credibility.
But as you seem to get infractions on these forums just for proving someone of a younger generation incorrect and attempting to have a civil conversation with them, I will just hit the ignore button for you both, bid you good day, and focus my conversation with the intellectuals that care to add to the thread.
@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…
Dude? Seriously? Why do you accuse me of playing a HS/PW build? I don’t play that. You don’t comprehend what good design is, I will explain. Good design is that 1 single weapon set, D/D has different play styles, crit/power and condition. This is the same for Short bow, these weapons are the best designed weapons for the Thief.
I made the accusation based on your thinking that is 99.999% shared by the spammers building around 1 trick ponies.
If you think that is good design and shares those playstyles, please enlighten me and the community on how D/D shares equal focus with crit+power AND condition.
Also please enlighten us on how shortbow can be good for condition….
Maybe you meant the poison on lotus strike? The one with low duration and horrible damage due to non stacking even with high condition damage stat?
Or maybe the cripple on dancing dagger? That is about the only other one aside from deathblossom, our dual skill which is supposed to be the staple the other weapon abilities should have a focus around….
Sure CnD applies vulnerability, but vulnerability doesnt effect condition damage….and CND misses alot unless u shadowstep to the target before/while using it.
Shortbow? I mean common even more off base. couple stacks of bleeding from a very slow projectile speed aoe? Or again a pitiful poison, Hint: The main benefit from that ability is the combo field not the poison, not by a long shot.
S/d does not have PW, S/D has Flanking strike and is the tank set. These changes make it more useful and fluid with the design as a tanking set by not only granting things like vigor, or the choice of stripping boons that could be increasing the targets damage, but also keeping a dual skill that evades AND pathes correctly with less risk and damage then say d/p and less control then s/p
@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…
@Shukran I did because I also wanted to see what non-thief players thought, because it is also directed at them partially to stop the complaining, the complaining that however incorrect, A-net is listening to and nerfing based off of.
@Narlok It is not streamlining the class into a certain playstyle… It is streamlining weapon sets..again not the class. The redesign is to add more fluidity and base-line setup for the either burst/tank (like vigor for our mobility class) and control.
Conditions is the general term it is not reducing choice. There is still the choice of control..tank…or damage with small mixtures of both with differences by risk and reward. There is no mechanic in the game that fits for setup other then conditions. Now if we had combo points like other MMOs, or the chain setup like GW1 for assassin that is how you reduce complexity and choice. Having our abilities more reflect and compare to as an example the necro’s Sceptor ability “Feast of corruption” rather then say Warrior’s ability “Hundred Blades” or “Eviscerate” makes the class not only MORE complex but more fluid and my changes are still keeping the MOBILITY that the class is supposed to be structured around, it is not supposed to be structured around pop a cooldown burst damage
And that is your problem, if you read on it is redesigning it to shift condition damage to be more of it’s main focus rather then front loaded damage, by reading on you will see it is not taking it all away, but conditions and condition damage would now be more of the building blocks for any burst. At the same time streamlining the weapon sets for more fluidity (also so the dual skills make sense in the set).
All of the high burst damage/ heavy function weapon abilities will have their damage/function based on how many conditions or stacks the opponent has with all or most of the other weapon abilities applying conditions
I do like Dagger/pistol but I think you are just used to having it as your pseudo tanky weapon and that is why you don’t like the changes per-say to that set. However, it is obvious dagger was meant to be high risk quick damage set, and let’s face it pistol was never designed as a tanky set either. My changes now streamline each set into their own focus, with the dual skill setting the standard for the focus and the mh+oh abilities always supporting said standard.
With my changes if you want to go for high risk high damage, you will still go dagger/dagger. However now it will better suit mixing your stats rather then just straight crit+crtdmg and it will be more fluid as each ability in all the weapon setups will feel like they have meaning. If you wanted to go tanky with a side of control, you go Sword+Dagger. If you want to go full control you go sword/pistol. If you want to go max single target range moderate damage @ less risk you go Pistol/Pistol. If you want to go moderate risk@ moderate AOE functionality you go shortbow.
That kind of thief exists more in my vision as well, I wrote a long thread about it called “A welcomed change” in this section and spvp section
i can say: why not? anet decides, we can theorycraft all the time we want.
but i still don’t like s/d. i would prefer something more damage than always put conditions. there should be some bonus damage for back strikes in the s/d dual itself. something you can upgrade with traits. right now s/d is only a control build, and thief really have s/p if he needs control.
Well its still the tankiest build for thief (s/d) . Think about it this way, cripple the melee target with dancing dagger and he won’t be able to make it to you, this means less damage you are taking. Daze on the stealth ability, means the target will not be using abilities for those 2 seconds ergo less damage you will take. The dual ability that evades during the entire duration, thats a lot of damage avoided and you are removing boons from the target that not only could be keeping it alive but giving it more damage as well, which is even more time to live for you. If the target has no boons you are getting vigor and regen, I don’t need to explain the benefit of this.
Flanking strike will still do damage and so will the sword #1 chain, which is surely enough for the trade off of getting a large boost to survivability.
In addition with this sword/pistol will be similar just giving less survivability but giving more control
Then you could ask" With the sword set now based on lock down conditions and not damage, how do you kill the target?"
Answer: They will still do naturally more on hit damage then dagger, have the sweeping aoe function, and Pistol whip would have a bonus of it’s own and its only real source of damage. I was thinking something like: If the target has 1 condition the target gains 1 stack of burning. If the target has 2 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding . If the target has 3 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at even longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding (at longer duration) and the target is knocked down for 1 second. The burning duration will also probably be around 5-8 seconds base. See Pistol/Pistol to see the offhand changes
Now we move on to Pistol/Pistol.
This will now be our staple mobility set and group function set to compete with shortbow. Pistol ranges increased to 1200 via a new talent
Pistol #1 Vital shot attack now applies 1 random condition on the target and a very short duration swiftness on the thief. Body shot will no longer have an after cast, and will cause the same vulnerability and now drain 25% of the target’s endurance but still do very little damage. Unload will still do it’s front loaded damage BUT each shot will bounce a number of times depending on the number of conditions the target has. Headshot will still daze, but the daze duration is now increased based on the number of conditions the target has (Ex: from a base 1/4s duration. duration is doubled for each condition on the target)
Black Powder will now place the standard smoke radius around the thief but will also place a connecting smoke line all the way to the target blinding it as well. EX: (o)====x where o= thief and x=target. This is a small change that now makes it a viable use of initiative for Pistol/Pistol builds keeping at range without really breaking it (the target will still have to be in the smoke line similar to the width of smoke screen to be pulsed with the blind).
Now onto Sword/Dagger’s Flanking strike. Due to main hand swords new natural lockdown and shadow step+return, and off hand daggers remaining stealth and cripple feel this will still remain the most tanky spec for thief. Flanking strike will have it’s pathing to no longer move the thief around the target. It will now have the thief jump up, over to right behind the target facing it as well in one quick motion. It will dodge during the entire animation, and when the thief lands he will stab the target in the back twice (this is all if the target doesn’t dodge ofc), each hit now turns the boons into conditions and grants the thief 5s of regen and vigor if the target has no boons.
I am sorry if this is a long read, but I think this will make not only make thief a much more interesting class with a higher skill cap, but quiet the complainers as well. Obviously all of these changes are with the expectation the rendering is fixed first.
The class will now be more comparable to a necro then a warrior. Instead of all of that boom headshot gib damage everyone complains about, it will draw out the fights a little longer, but give thief more control of situations with more condition options, while still keeping the mobility and stealth flavor.
Thanks for those who read, and you have to read it all to understand my vision.
I posted this in the theif section to see what my fellow thief players think (I play thief and mesmer @ 80 wvwvw but only ele in spvp). I am posting it here to also see what non thief players think. Keep in mind this redesign will remove most but not all of the burst the thief currently has and most build around (The 1 trick pony/1 hit wonders)
WARNING: LONG READ
With all of the complaint threads about thief, and screenshots of some insane amount of damage always saying it was done in 1 second etc, and never able to show any other circumstances (orb buffs, vulnerability stacks) then you add on to the fact A-nets horrible reputation (they are going to beat SWTOR devs at this rate) for nerfing the wrong ability (HS and PW). I think we might as well request a redesign. If their current “balance” adjustments continue in the same direction Thief players are not only going to have zero use in competitive play but even less use in wvwvw environments.
Personally I would have no problem if they redesigned the entire thief class’ damage to be based around condition damage instead of front loaded. Now this would probably require them to either A. improve condition damage scaling, or B. increase Vulnerability viability and have it effect conditions as well.
Lets start off with dual skills. I think dual skills should be the staple of each weapon combination. All the other abilities should have a way to streamline and create fluidity with said dual skill. Lets use death blossom as an example; It’s most upfront power is the ability to apply bleeds. Well all the other d/d abilities are really streamlined for a Burst damage build, save maybe the cripple on Dancing dagger (Im not going to count Lotus strike because lets face it it requires to hit 3 in a chain plus poison is lackluster as it is)
So with this redesign I could see D/D Each hit in the #1 chain does a specific condition,like double strike applies poison, wild strike applies bleeding, and lotus strike applies burning . Heartseeker could still do front loaded damage, and be a finisher, but all of it’s front loaded damage would be based around a bonus (like 5% for each stack of bleeding and 10% for all other conditions and requires target to be below 30% hp and obviously the base damage would have to be altered)… Also if the possible damage is made to be very very high, it could always consume the conditions after a successful hit, like a drawback. Of course there is always the way of changing it from a finisher to just a decent front loaded damage hit for the now condition thief while still having its damage based on number of conditions, (which makes even more sense in the initiative design), where you can apply your conditions and choose to spend init on an attack with front loaded burst depending on how many conditions/stacks you have on the target, with the counter being the target uses a condition remover and you just blew initiative and did tickle damage.
Then we move on to backstab, keep the positional, just have it do a plethora of conditions if you hit from the front, and another front loaded hit based on how many conditions you have on the target when you strike from behind (this actually works really well on paper because it shuns away from 1 hit wonder and now requires actual out of stealth preparation like applying conditions or doing a front backstab before doing a back one)…. I am sure cloak and dagger could remain the same but if I were to change it in this redesign I would just have it not require a hit to stealth since it still takes initiative hit or miss.
Note: In my head, with the improvement to condition damage scaling, I am seeing something like 1k condition damage stat on a thief achieving maybe a 10% gain per tick of bleed damage for example over having 1400 condition damage currently.
Now you could say, “What would the use be for crit or crit damage now?”
Answer: Well with the attacks that still do front loaded damage with bonuses based on condition amount/stacks, those will still be able to crit. Also this change would require an obvious rework of a lot of talents, probably more talents in the critical strikes field that give things like “% to Bleed on crits”, " % to Chill on crits", “% to poison on crits” or “100% chance to cause Random condition on crit”
For other weapon choices, we could have Sword attacks be changed to heavily favor locking down an opponent but keeping mobility ; no more bugged self root on PW.. (thats just lol for a mobility based class). All #1 sword chain attacks could do conditions like daze, OR chill, and maybe an increased duration cripple. Pistol whip will no longer make the thief invulnerable during the duration, but will no longer self root, still stuns and only does 1 hit of a damaging attack (no longer a channel).
(edited by Knyx.5926)
Then you could ask" With the sword set now based on lock down conditions and not damage, how do you kill the target?"
Answer: They will still do naturally more on hit damage then dagger, have the sweeping aoe function, and Pistol whip would have a bonus of it’s own and its only real source of damage. I was thinking something like: If the target has 1 condition the target gains 1 stack of burning. If the target has 2 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding . If the target has 3 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at even longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding (at longer duration) and the target is knocked down for 1 second. The burning duration will also probably be around 5-8 seconds base. See Pistol/Pistol to see the offhand changes
Now we move on to Pistol/Pistol.
This will now be our staple mobility set and group function set to compete with shortbow. Pistol ranges increased to 1200 via a new talent
Pistol #1 Vital shot attack now applies 1 random condition on the target and a very short duration swiftness on the thief. Body shot will no longer have an after cast, and will cause the same vulnerability and now drain 25% of the target’s endurance but still do very little damage. Unload will still do it’s front loaded damage BUT each shot will bounce a number of times depending on the number of conditions the target has. Headshot will still daze, but the daze duration is now increased based on the number of conditions the target has (Ex: from a base 1/4s duration. duration is doubled for each condition on the target)
Black Powder will now place the standard smoke radius around the thief but will also place a connecting smoke line all the way to the target blinding it as well. EX: (o)====x where o= thief and x=target. This is a small change that now makes it a viable use of initiative for Pistol/Pistol builds keeping at range without really breaking it (the target will still have to be in the smoke line similar to the width of smoke screen to be pulsed with the blind).
Now onto Sword/Dagger’s Flanking strike. Due to main hand swords new natural lockdown and shadow step+return, and off hand daggers remaining stealth and cripple feel this will still remain the most tanky spec for thief. Flanking strike will have it’s pathing to no longer move the thief around the target. It will now have the thief jump up, over to right behind the target facing it as well in one quick motion. It will dodge during the entire animation, and when the thief lands he will stab the target in the back twice (this is all if the target doesn’t dodge ofc), each hit now turns the boons into conditions and grants the thief 5s of regen and vigor if the target has no boons.
I am sorry if this is a long read, but I think this will make not only make thief a much more interesting class with a higher skill cap, but quiet the complainers as well. Obviously all of these changes are with the expectation the rendering is fixed first.
The class will now be more comparable to a necro then a warrior. Instead of all of that boom headshot gib damage everyone complains about, it will draw out the fights a little longer, but give thief more control of situations with more condition options, while still keeping the mobility and stealth flavor.
Thanks for those who read, and you have to read it all to understand my vision.
(edited by Knyx.5926)
WARNING: LONG READ
With all of the complaint threads about thief, and screenshots of some insane amount of damage always saying it was done in 1 second etc, and never able to show any other circumstances (orb buffs, vulnerability stacks) then you add on to the fact A-nets horrible reputation (they are going to beat SWTOR devs at this rate) for nerfing the wrong ability (HS and PW). I think we might as well request a redesign. If their current “balance” adjustments continue in the same direction Thief players are not only going to have zero use in competitive play but even less use in wvwvw environments.
Personally I would have no problem if they redesigned the entire thief class’ damage to be based around condition damage instead of front loaded. Now this would probably require them to either A. improve condition damage scaling, or B. increase Vulnerability viability and have it effect conditions as well.
Lets start off with dual skills. I think dual skills should be the staple of each weapon combination. All the other abilities should have a way to streamline and create fluidity with said dual skill. Lets use death blossom as an example; It’s most upfront power is the ability to apply bleeds. Well all the other d/d abilities are really streamlined for a Burst damage build, save maybe the cripple on Dancing dagger (Im not going to count Lotus strike because lets face it it requires to hit 3 in a chain plus poison is lackluster as it is)
So with this redesign I could see D/D Each hit in the #1 chain does a specific condition,like double strike applies poison, wild strike applies bleeding, and lotus strike applies burning . Heartseeker could still do front loaded damage, and be a finisher, but all of it’s front loaded damage would be based around a bonus (like 5% for each stack of bleeding and 10% for all other conditions and requires target to be below 30% hp and obviously the base damage would have to be altered)… Also if the possible damage is made to be very very high, it could always consume the conditions after a successful hit, like a drawback. Of course there is always the way of changing it from a finisher to just a decent front loaded damage hit for the now condition thief while still having its damage based on number of conditions, (which makes even more sense in the initiative design), where you can apply your conditions and choose to spend init on an attack with front loaded burst depending on how many conditions/stacks you have on the target, with the counter being the target uses a condition remover and you just blew initiative and did tickle damage. Then we move on to backstab, keep the positional, just have it do a plethora of conditions if you hit from the front, and another front loaded hit based on how many conditions you have on the target when you strike from behind (this actually works really well on paper because it shuns away from 1 hit wonder and now requires actual out of stealth preparation like applying conditions or doing a front backstab before doing a back one)…. I am sure cloak and dagger could remain the same but if I were to change it in this redesign I would just have it not require a hit to stealth since it still takes initiative hit or miss.
Note: In my head, with the improvement to condition damage scaling, I am seeing something like 1k condition damage stat on a thief achieving maybe a 10% gain per tick of bleed damage for example over having 1400 condition damage currently.
Now you could say, “What would the use be for crit or crit damage now?”
Answer: Well with the attacks that still do front loaded damage with bonuses based on condition amount/stacks, those will still be able to crit. Also this change would require an obvious rework of a lot of talents, probably more talents in the critical strikes field that give things like “% to Bleed on crits”, " % to Chill on crits", “% to poison on crits” or “100% chance to cause Random condition on crit”
For other weapon choices, we could have Sword attacks be changed to heavily favor locking down an opponent but keeping mobility ; no more bugged self root on PW.. (thats just lol for a mobility based class). All #1 sword chain attacks could do conditions like daze, OR chill, and maybe an increased duration cripple. Pistol whip will no longer make the thief invulnerable during the duration, but will no longer self root, still stuns and only does 1 hit of a damaging attack (no longer a channel).
(edited by Knyx.5926)
@Bwillb What post about Pistol whip? All I read was the patch notes, I see nothing of an explanation.
@ namu since you have lost the ability to read what you type
“As soon as you start laying down damage its bam stealth, heal, cond dmg, stealth. Fastest class in game highest end regen rate gives them the ability to avoid damage very easily when one of their many broken stealth skills is down.”
Thats from you btw.
That is an exxageration
Using words like “Impossible” is also an exaggeration. Still waiting on the evidence.
Perhaps you should step away and perhaps go back to school, so you can enter an argument with some substance.
@bwillb It is a bug,
Any self root on ANY ability on a class designed for MOBILITY, let me repeat that for you in case you forgot your glasses; MOBILITY based class, is a bug. No dev with an IQ higher then a chimpanzee would add that, so considering they can obviously post on the forums and make statements with real sentences I am going to guess they can dress and feed themselves as well. Ergo self root is a bug
Now you stare at the grass for a moment
I feel like you are completely disregarding PVE here.
I love Pistol Whip in PVE. I use S/P when I’m running around alone fighting groups of mobs (that I can bunch together of course). I don’t feel that the 15% damage nerf has harmed my PVE effectiveness to any sort of significant degree.
Uhhh….it’s a 15% damage nerf to the skill you use like 90% of the time. Just because you don’t feel it’s impact doesn’t mean the impact is not relevant.
It wouldn’t be a big deal if they took away 15% from PW and moved it into the #1 attack and/or Tactical Strike. But they basically nerfed S/P with no compensation, a kit that was already doing less sustained than both D/D setups and worse AoE and utility than Shortbow.
or nerfed the damage by 15%, fix the obvious bug of it self rooting, replaced stun with a daze and sped up all sword animations a bit so we DONT have to rely on haste
My main is a thief LMAO. And I rolled one in beta and headstart, before its what everyone else was doing, thats why I say that, because I dont get hit. I can sit there and bleed you and dodge any and everything you throw at me and then if you do manage to get in close and hit me, i just stealth evade out heal up and keep laying on the bleed.
You cant hit what you cant see, you can try and guess but we aren’t blind easy to dodge attacks stealthed…..
Denial much?
Lie much. Clearly you don’t play thief just by your lack of knowledge on the class. Your ^50 exponential exaggeration would be like me saying “Eles are overpowered they have 40k hp, can do 30k AOE crits in 1 ability”
Clearly you don’t play thief, you show an extreme lack of knowledge on the class.
I may not be the best Thief in the world, but I know enough. The only lack of knowledge I’m seeing is from people completely unwilling to expand and grow with their class as it changes (what do you expect in an mmo?). This little nerf is just breaking people down and it shouldn’t be. Perhaps try playing the class differently and expanding YOUR knowledge of it.
If you know any of what you claim. Feel free to chime in with evidence to back up your statements like saying how we have other damage abilities in the set other then pistol whip. I am waiting.
The fact that you know nothing about the thief class still stands and your ignorance is insulting.
Thieves share a resource pool across both weapons, it’s not like other classes where their off weapon set gives them a new set of cooldowns to work with. You switch weapons, and have the same amount of resources to work with.
In almost every case, thieves off set weapon is a ranged weapon, most commonly shortbow.
Shortbow is another weapon set that does rather mediocre damage at best but has lots of utility.
So in a sword/pistol and shortbow weapon set, your highest damage skill, is pistol whip, and the way thief is designed, you are supposed to use the same skill multiple times in succession, that is the point of the initiative system. Your only other option for damage in that set, is cluster bomb, which will do about half the damage of a pistol whip at best.
So if a thief with that setup wants to actually damage an opponent that they’ve immobilized/blinded or otherwise hindered with their other skills… they have to use pistol whip, in succession (if they can land it). Using anything else consumes all their initiative and produces minimal damage.
Do some homework, play a thief, then you can come back and run your mouth.
Getting a bit hostile are we? I actually do play a Thief. I just don’t rely on a single skill to do all my work for me.
Regarding initiative. What exactly are you spamming to use up all your initiative making a second weapon set useless? Pistol Whip? Just because Pistol Whip is your highest damage skill does not mean you should be spamming it and forsaking other abilities more useful for the situation. This AGAIN pushes the fact you completely rely on it! Read what you are typing. And no, you do not have to be spammy with a single ability to be effective unless you are completely built around doing as much damage as fast as is humanly possible before you die from lack of survivability. If that is your case, then you need to deal with the downside of this choice. From your post I gather that you literally are running into people and hammering Pistol Whip over and over hoping they die. Practice. You can do better than that.
Clearly you don’t play thief, you show an extreme lack of knowledge on the class.
I think these devs at a-net should return to get their high school diploma or GED at least.
They reduced the damage but didnt fix the bug that made it self root on a mobility class?
A 5 year old would know better.It’s not a bug, the root is intentional, just like the roots on blurred frenzy and 100b.
Isaiah Cartwright needs to be fired though.. His blatant favoritism of the warrior class and heavy handed nerfs in both GW1 and this game are just absurd for someone toting themselves as the ‘balance’ dev.
S/P has ONE damage skill, unless you count auto attack.
Nerfing that outright without replacing the damage elsewhere is just stupid and heavy handed.
It is a bug, unless you are saying the devs are mentally challenged (to the point someone has to dress them and feed them in the morning).
Since I doubt that is the case, it is a bug.
100B= Warrior. Warrior is not supposed to be a mobility based class, ergo working as intended.
Blurred Frenzy= Mesmer definitely not a mobility class, ergo working as intended.
Wrong. It is a bug. ANY self root on ANY ability on a class designed around mobility is a bug (and oxymoron), If there is a part of the ability that makes it too strong while mobile in the design phase; you tweak that part, you do not slap on a self root. This is like design 101, I don’t think any MMO has ever made that mistake. Ergo bug
Use Divinity rune set. Use Berserker Accessories and Jewels with Valk runes in them
Its bugged. The ability has a self root and any self root on any ability for a class designed around mobility has to be a bug. I already posted it in our bug list
could be a bug but I was in wvwvw the other night on my norn mesmer and was attacking an asuran mesmer on the wall, he was hitting me too. HOWEVER, every single one of my hits except maybe 1 or 2 phantasm spawns said “Obstructed” and did no damage, where as every single one of his hit me. He wasn’t even standing ON the outer barricade ledge, he was behind it and all you could really target was his name. Did I also mention he was standing still the ENTIRE time.
I agree somewhat. I think there needs to be more catering to middle-ground builds. The fact for example Vitality, scales differently by class it really skews the system. If a thief for example wants to build for a balanced build, they are still only gonna truck around 15k maybe 16k hp. Where an 80% offensive (glass) Warrior build can have 20-21k if not a few thousand more……
seems kind of silly
Honestly if I were A-net. I would have made Steal F1 like it is, Shadow return (requiring steal to be used) as F2, and F3+ just be our venoms. Bam our class mechanic, and to make it balanced they would ALL share a global except shadow return
Pistol Whip self roots.
any self rooting ability on a mobility class has to be a bug.
Go full Berserker armor set, full Divinity runes. Knight weapons with Sigil of fire on main hand and the one for swiftness on kill on Off hand. Use Knight jewelry and accessories but with Valkyrie runes in them. With your build and that gear you will net around 15-16k hp, 45-50% crit , 70-75% crit damage, and 2200-2300 toughness
yea hopefully they will turn the class more into what they advertised from the get go it was going to be..
its an easy fix, just let you keep your dye colors on if you want on your end but no matter what on another players screen in the match you will be entirely the color of the enemy team