Guild Wars 2

Everyone is complaining about thieves, and they are trying to justify their argument by acting like they have no time to react. Well the above changes give every class that face the thief at least 5s, in many cases MORE to react. At the same time it opens viability for more thief builds and synergizes the sets.

I am getting this post back up beause if they are complaining about time to react, and this is what this solves, I will prove here and now they are just complaining to complain because they died once, and have no real justification.

@ Parakeet
The 5s give or take is exactly what my above redesign would give all classes glass cannon or not. So we are back to the fact that people who are whining did not jump on it

funny… I mean with that thread with the above redesign options included youd think the hundreds of people complaining about thief and wanting it nerfed, especially when the underlying reason is that they just want an easier (more) time to react, would have jumped on it with open arms because it does just that. Just gos to show you they are complaining just to complain and do not know how to play.

Wolfe.3097:

Knyx.5926:

I like the Idea, my idea earlier in which I made a VERY long thread about was redesigning the thief to kind of move a little bit in comparison. To be more comparable to a necro then a warrior.

Just an example of the many changes in the rework I suggested:
For Dagger main hand:

Backstab::::
Front hit: Now does no front loaded damage, but does a Plethora of conditions on hit.
Back hit: Can still reach same damage potential as current but most of its damage is now based off a bonus. 10% damage per condition on the target and 5% per bleed stack. Base damage altered.

Heartseeker::::
Now is greyed out and unable to be activated until target reaches 40% hp.
This ability now works like backstabs back hit as well, most of its damage is based off the bonus of per condition on the target.

These changes alone, and this is only a sampler, would NOT ONLY mean the thief would have to spend a little more time in a fight to setup the big hits (even if it means backstabbing in the front, waiting for revealed to fall, stealth again, and backstab in the back) rather then relying on cooldowns. So this would be a shift from cooldown skill dependancy and allow for more player based skill on both ends. AT THE SAME TIME, this also opens more options up for more thief builds to be successful which is a win win if you ask me.

those conditions would need to last a while then, like…8 seconds at least

Well I also had from Dagger main hand for the #1 chain. The first hit would do 5s Poison, the second would do 5s Vulnerability, and the 3rd hit would do 8s of burning.
That would give us 3 condition applying attacks that don’t cost initiative, you also have dancing dagger, Cloak and dagger, Death blossom, Caltrops, venoms….. see how this synergizes the use of all abilities instead of 1-2?

I was also thinking the Front hit backstab would apply something like the following:

1 Vulnerability stack @ 8s
Poison @8s
Chill @3s
5 Bleed stacks @10s
but remember no more instant damage

It makes multiple builds more useful this way. If you are the normal glass cannon crit build, the conditions are just the prep for backstab (back hit) and Heartseeker which will hit just as hard as they do now burst wise. A condition build will still get use out of all weapon abilities (INCLUDING backstab now ) but the conditions will be the pimary form of widdling down the opponent with more options of control. A hyrbid build will get to be in the middle ground of both and still have use of, yet again, all abilities. This is just d/d too…

Just as bad for us here in US. I transfered to SoS 2 weeks ago because the server I was on since headstart had 2-8hr ques everyday everytime I could play. SoS has been instant ques till today….. If it continues into my weekend, I certainly will be going yet again to greener pastures, I care nothing for a winning server, like I do insta ques

I like the Idea, my idea earlier in which I made a VERY long thread about was redesigning the thief to kind of move a little bit in comparison. To be more comparable to a necro then a warrior.

Just an example of the many changes in the rework I suggested:
For Dagger main hand:

Backstab::::
Front hit: Now does no front loaded damage, but does a Plethora of conditions on hit.
Back hit: Can still reach same damage potential as current but most of its damage is now based off a bonus. 10% damage per condition on the target and 5% per bleed stack. Base damage altered.

Heartseeker::::
Now is greyed out and unable to be activated until target reaches 40% hp.
This ability now works like backstabs back hit as well, most of its damage is based off the bonus of per condition on the target.

These changes alone, and this is only a sampler, would NOT ONLY mean the thief would have to spend a little more time in a fight to setup the big hits (even if it means backstabbing in the front, waiting for revealed to fall, stealth again, and backstab in the back) rather then relying on cooldowns. So this would be a shift from cooldown skill dependancy and allow for more player based skill on both ends. AT THE SAME TIME, this also opens more options up for more thief builds to be successful which is a win win if you ask me.

The problem is I tend to see exponentially more posts getting deleted by people post in defense of thief, and even posts just showing in detail why the nerf requests are wrong… then the posts whining for a nerf. Happens to mine a lot as well. This would also explain what seems like a lopsided mass of tons of threads filled with posts only complaining with misinformation asking for a nerf

Lan.1968:

Knyx.5926:

Lan.1968:

So tell me why you would test mobility in a non-practical situation, despite having actually done the test or not? To tell me an elementalist is fast than a thief without a target literally means a thief loses one, if not two with Sword, abilities to cover more ground. If you want to compare class mobility against one another, you should take into all accounts on what makes them faster and not set limitations. Not to mention an elementalist don’t start off with 25 stacks of passive speed increase as well, so to tell me a thief cannot exceed in terms of speed against an elementalist would mean an elementalist would have no problems running away from a thief. If you’re getting worked up because I’m telling you your statement is invalid, then I’d suggest not posting at all.

That is the point I was making. Without a target. I can’t believe I am the only one who sees it as an issue that the class is not the most mobile WITHOUT having to spend initiative. I was also showing how initiative is actually a curse in terms of mobility compared to a cooldown because since naturally all our weapon abilities require it, Lets say if a thief and an ele were racing to get to the enemy group. The ele will win and have most of his attunement abilities off cooldown even in air. Where as the thief, trying to keep up with the ele will have wasted all of his initiative an will have to wait before being able to engage with anything other then a utility skill/auto attack or elite.

Frankly, I’d have no problem with the mobility/initiative cost trade-off. Lets just say a thief becomes the fastest in and out of combat, while still being able to perform their main skills without any problems; so how do you propose to ever outrun a thief in spvp or pvp in general? If we’re so fast to the point where other classes have no choice but to actually fight us, even when they know they have a high probability of losing, then I don’t see how a thief can be kited or chased.

Immobilizes, Fears, Stuns, Cripples, Knockdowns, and general condition spamming.

I suggested in a VERY long thread how to rework Thief into closer comparison to a Necro then a Warrior in terms of their main forms of damage, but the responses were all against it without giving any supporting evidence why so I let the thread die.

As an example from that thread (remember this is taken out of a huge context):
Changes to D/D
Backstab:
Front now does a plethora of conditions
Back now has the ability to reach same damage potential as current but its damage is now based off a bonus: 10% damage per condition on the target. Base damage altered

Each hit in #1 chain does a condition. 1st does 5s duration poison, 2nd does 5s Vulnerability, 3rd does 8s duration burning

Heartseeker now works like Backstabs back attack, Except it is greyed out till target reaches 40% hp. (Damage is increased based on how many conditions target has, and base damage altered to reflect that) with its potential damage the same as live

With weapons setup more like that, It requires the thief be in combat just a small amount more, because there is actual player based skill setup (not cooldown based), which would balance out the fact if we were given our maximum mobility withoutrequiring initiative

It is a sigil not a rune

Lan.1968:

Why teach him the unicorn (or blaze would call it bloodstorm) build? Bad habits

Lol i have been using that build for awhile in wvwvw and it requires 100x more skill then any burst build. All the burst builds pigeon hole you into solo roaming, which doesnt really help your server. I actually am on the front line of my servers groups and jump into the angry horde that is the enemy zerg only to jump back out again.

Dont compensate any damage nerf (even tho one is not needed) with survival buffs. Give us more control options (conditions) and condition damage applications (like burning) on our already existing ability.

Honestly, if you are looking for a change up never go Melee to another Melee centric class

My second 80 was a Mesmer and I love it. You could also try Elementalist both very important in wvwvw

Spifnar.4712:

Is auto-running really a measure of speed in the game? You might as well say that guardians have worse defense than anyone but ele or thief…assuming you’re using no abilities or traits and just standing there getting hit!

Flashback abilities are where you can port to a preset location. Thief sword #2 and some mesmer abilities. ie, you teleport to and then flashback. They can be very handy in combat…or just running around town.

Assuming other classes just instantly get perma swiftness is not conducive to discussion, just like assuming all thieves have +25% move speed. It costs the thief 1 util slot, just like swiftness costs other classes cooldowns and/or traits.

For example, to blast out swiftness on an ele, they have to use a 40s cooldown lightning field…not to AE stun, but just to run faster for 10 seconds. Then a 30s cooldown for another 10s of swiftness, then use a glyph or signet and attunement swap to fill in the rest of the time, depending on +% boon duration. It’s not hard, but it does have to be done…and it limits your combat options.

To get perma swiftness on a warrior, they need to use Signet of Rage and warhorn (a utility weapon with no attacks)

Other classes have similar tradeoffs

Swiftness is 33%, up to 40% if you use 6 Superior Runes of Speed.

It’s the thief active abilities that make them faster than anyone else, especially in combat.

It is not called Flashback… it is called Shadow Return

Yukishiro.8792:

Backstab is ok, assassin’s signet and quickness are not.

If quickness is touched Sword will have to be redesigned

My personal opinion. Go for Carion if you can.
30 Trickery —- 20% hp hit to stealth, Trickery CD -20%, Caltrops on dodge
20 Acro -- Might on dodge, 2 init 10 seconds
20 Shadow arts — Blind on stealth, Steal stealths you

Hide in shadows, Caltrops, Signet of shadows, Shadows refuge, Dagger storm
Dagger/Dagger or Pistol/Dagger and Shortbow

Depends on what you are doing, Vitality > Toughness in wvwvw for instance

I would have no problem if they added a ton more condition applying (damage and control) on our abilities and lowered the front end damage. Also… remove self root on pistol whip, shouldn’t have made it past alpha much less beta

Revelstoke.8924:

So this thread (in true forum fashion!) got derailed. Want to try and bring it back. So glossing over the replies the one that caught my eye was “It was working till they broke it last patch” so are you saying that, in combat, my +25% is no longer applying? Which would make perfect sense why I seem to be on level run-speed with my targets now.

Additionally, does anyone know specifically what the % addition to runspeed Swiftness applies? 5? 10? 15%?

In my black and white world…a thief running signet of shadows should always (due to the size of the bonus – 25%) be faster than any other class. Im not talking about heartseekers, shadowstep, etc…just flat run speed. If thats the case, and if Swiftness is ~25%, i should always be able to catch my target so I’m trying to figure out why I cant and/or if the Signet is even worth using anymore.

Nope because the signet as you said is 25%, swiftness is 33% and does not stack, many classes also have an easier time getting perma swiftness then thief.

Kogan.9857:

Well done Lavexis and props to Blazer for confidence in his ability and showing up.

Well he was claiming P/P and it doesnt sound like he even use it, so much for confidence

Mine must be bugged because on my div set I use for my crit build, It doesnt increase either.

You might think Pistol whip is okay but it is hypocrisy to the thief design

Parakeet.6083:

Knyx.5926:

Yea kinda like the other day I was 1 shotted by an ele the other day for 32k damage at 1800 range. He even had me perma stunned the next time I came after him when I spawned and danced around me. Also calculating his max hp by how much of his health was missing when i hit him that one time for 3k, he had 64k hp. As I also liked how he was hovering off the ground, had blonde spikey hair, and blue eyes.

I do not need to provide screenshots or videos of this because I know it is true and my numbers are 100% accurate.

WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT HIS POWER LEVEL???

What is this scouting device you speak of??

All I know is I had a similar situation as well in wvwvw last night. There was this Norn elementalist with the smae blonde spikey hair and blue eyes. I came across him after a large battle and he was on my team. He was just standing there in a horse stance and his face was really red. I figured he just had to go take a bowel movement after a long battle but he looked really constipated. Even though I was a little afraid, I walked up and offered him some stool softeners and laxative. This ele must have been standing there for at least 1 hour doing this too, and enemies would just pass by him like they couldn’t attack him….. so strange

@ Siva Mira WRONG
Divinity does NOT give you healing power and condition damage, only the all around spvp amulet does.

@Swadow

I understand exactly what you mean, but inherently that shouts to me that Warriors and Guardians have far too much access to stability then and that should be corrected. If it is balanced around a class having high access to it, the classes with low and minimal access to it get screwed.

Lan.1968:

So tell me why you would test mobility in a non-practical situation, despite having actually done the test or not? To tell me an elementalist is fast than a thief without a target literally means a thief loses one, if not two with Sword, abilities to cover more ground. If you want to compare class mobility against one another, you should take into all accounts on what makes them faster and not set limitations. Not to mention an elementalist don’t start off with 25 stacks of passive speed increase as well, so to tell me a thief cannot exceed in terms of speed against an elementalist would mean an elementalist would have no problems running away from a thief. If you’re getting worked up because I’m telling you your statement is invalid, then I’d suggest not posting at all.

That is the point I was making. Without a target. I can’t believe I am the only one who sees it as an issue that the class is not the most mobile WITHOUT having to spend initiative. I was also showing how initiative is actually a curse in terms of mobility compared to a cooldown because since naturally all our weapon abilities require it, Lets say if a thief and an ele were racing to get to the enemy group. The ele will win and have most of his attunement abilities off cooldown even in air. Where as the thief, trying to keep up with the ele will have wasted all of his initiative an will have to wait before being able to engage with anything other then a utility skill/auto attack or elite.

D/D
SB

30 Trickery
20 Shadow Arts
20 Acrobatics

Full Carion gear (Power+Vitality+Condition damage)
Caltrops+Shadows refuge(can be swapped for Scorpion wire)+Signet of Shadows.

Common misconception is that the thieves who are built for glass cannon and solo killing are effecting the war effort, they are not. In this build one of your primary duties is to run with your servers group(s), and when they are engaging or about to engage a zerg, you jump (IA, Steal) into the middle of the most bunched part of the enemy group, drop caltrops, death blossom a few times and dagger storm whilst moving back torwards your own group. This nullifies a lot of the enemies ability to retreat, causes confusion among the uninitiated, and at the same times gives your group more battlefield control by having a more successful retreat/kite if need me.

@ Sevati
Yes your ignorance is astounding

A. Highly doubt you play thief or did even

B. Anyone can throw out numbers without proof

C. Nerfing a class because a game(effecting all classes) bug is not fixed in a time you find reasonable? You should quit now, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Transferred to SoS about 2+ weeks ago after having horrid que times after I got home from work and on weekends on my last server.
I mostly do wvwvw but wanted to get a better feel of the server before I went “Guild shopping”.

I have an 80 Thief and Mesmer
You probably have seen me on the field, I look like I am straight out of Assassin’s creed to the fullest extent possible.
It doesn’t have to be a super high pop guild, and I prefer a group of people that have a sense of humor.

Also, to note, not interested in a “elitist” guild (or rather who thinks they are) like the ones that require “taxes” from their players

Signed,
Varknyn – Thief

Jjiinx.8795:

When I started playing GW2 I immediately fell in love with the thief, mostly because I’ve only ever played Stealth/assassin type classes in other mmos and rpgs. I love the initiative system and playing and building your class how you enjoy playing. I also really love the dual weapon system, how your 3rd skill changes based on the weapon set.

However, when I try to play another class I become bored incredibly easy. The cooldowns are not fun to play with and you can’t really customize your class to your playstyle. While other classes have simple builds, Thief has more complex one, thanks to being able to specialize more in depth, since skills don’t have cooldowns.

Am I doomed to a life of thief, or is there something I’m missing with other classes that make them more exciting?

I think the ele attunement system is far more creative and healthier for the game then the initiative system. Kinda wish they used something as creative as that for thief.

Yea kinda like the other day I was 1 shotted by an ele the other day for 32k damage at 1800 range. He even had me perma stunned the next time I came after him when I spawned and danced around me. Also calculating his max hp by how much of his health was missing when i hit him that one time for 3k, he had 64k hp. As I also liked how he was hovering off the ground, had blonde spikey hair, and blue eyes.

I do not need to provide screenshots or videos of this because I know it is true and my numbers are 100% accurate.

Yea, it does seem silly though because you would expect Stability to be one of the end all be all protection against CC, probably harder to get with less uptime, but the fact it can be turned in a form of CC seems kind of silly to me. Now I am not trying to start a flame war because I understand your class is bugged to high heaven, its just seems like a strange mechanic and promotes perma CC. Even if they had to make stability hard to get, which some classes only have like 1 ability that grants stability, it should be turned into an effect, that way uneffected by boon stripping/corrupting.

Red Falcon.8257:

@Dan
Combat log bugs perhaps, most of the results are bugged – it even states the wrong skill names a lot of times.
I ran a prot Guardian in sPvP for quite a bit and I don’t recall being hit for more than 6k (these being from signet assassins).

@Anxiety
WvW damage does not matter.
There are very large bonuses to damage due to gear etc,* that’s why Anet balances around sPvP*.

Which is why it would be a good idea to repost this in the spvp forum, maybe counterbalance the storm of ignorant threads.

Ichishi.9613:

Stealth. YES RENDERING IN WVW IS BUGGED. But seriously. One of the key features of GW2. If you can show off your skills and flashy aoe’s in a middle of a town why can’t you do a pair of swings / fields around if you if you suspect thief to be near. Or ask nearby allies (if theres none, look at point 1) to “UNLEASH HELL IN DIRECTION”. Without a bug, gw2 stealth is the least op stealth i’ve ever seen in any mmo.
Going to point 3. Lets start with that epic hax backstab damage. So my backstab crits squshies for about 2-3k. Now that’s really op. Considering it is my greatest damaging ability and at the same time only offensive use for a stealth on a stealth specced thief. Oh and I actually need to be at back of my enemy and to actually crit (with my 4% crit) it. Considering I can only get in stealth with 8 ini points combo or by jumping of a cliff. Certainly in need of a nerf.
Now there are other thieves. Glass cannons, signet, might stacking, precasting CnD (actually, shadowstep that did not interrupt actions is the only thing gw1 lacked and the most awesome thing intentionally introduced in gw2) and mugging people with over 30k total damage in some seconds.
Now lets see. A thief that dies (or at least gets really sad and discouraged with his build) from few random things thrown his way made his way unnoticed by you and the zerg/guild/party near you into a range of a steal, by some incredible luck his steal teleported him right at you back so he could just press the signet button to kill you. Well, its not suprising these days. Considering we managed to build with 10 random people 3 ballistas in 1000 feet range behind a zerg hitting their rams (heads) into the gate without a single rock thrown our way.
Seriously. You can probably count the amount of skills that you cannot use while moving in this whole game on one hand. So this point being – if you are not moving – you are either casting an unmovable skill, sitting in siege thing or doing something wrong. Considering You SHOULD HAVE noticed thief before he could port to you I cannot imagine how hard it can be to start moving and turning around (if for some strange reason you werent doing so before). And hold you finger on a dodge button. Not on a pewpew skill.
Now I want to sleep more than to write more so I will continue after. Do note that I am here because for somehow I am suddenly killing mobs in pve 15% slower with one of the weapons for absolutely no reason. And I would hate to lose the only offensive use for my stealth and my only DAMAGING move beside cluster for the reasons like 1) people running alone on WORLD vs WORLD map of mmo oriented for teamplay 2) caring about deaths/kills in a OBJECTIVE mass pvp where you can be ressed instantly with no penalty
3) not paying attention (tunnel vision aka ambush backstab in melee range with a ballista)
4) not moving in a game that does no penalize you for doing so (if you consider yourself too bad to dodge/move away from few things, you could at least FACE backstab)
5) crying and begging and complaining everywhere and forcing ANET (they have a bit of a trouble with realising the difference between gw1 and gw2 communities) doing unneeded things.

P.S. I am not defending those op thieves. I am not denying thives’ strengths.
I am protecting thief as a versatile class that can be usefull and fun in many situations with many builds. I am claiming that this class does not need nerfing but is in a proccess of tuning.
In guild team I play with (1-2 parties mostly) I’ve never experienced lone or small bunches of thieves no matter how awesome they are to pose any difficulties other that actually killing them (that noone should really care abbout). I do not want my thief (that somehow is not killed by those cannons even with my noobishness due to a late start in game) to be denied of that little I still have in terms of offense because of some or many simply better and better geared that simply do not understand the rules by which WvW should be played and evaluated

I like what you said about being able to count the amount of self rooting abilities in the whole game on 1 hand. So true, and the funniest part is that Thief (the supposed to be mobility based class) got one……. Its like one of those things where you ask “did A-net have a temp design the sword set skills, I don’t think a monkey is that bad”

Sevati.6724:

Knyx.5926:

Sevati.6724:

The problem is that Thief stealth abilities when used properly allow permanent uptime.

One thing to consider every 3 seconds a Thief gets 2 initiative back meaning every 6 seconds they can just use cloak and dagger to stealth with what I show here. Its really simple coupled with rendering lag.

Assuming the Hidden Thief for stealth while stealing, Meld with Shadows trait for an extra second of stealth per application, Infusion of Shadow which grants 2 initiative per stealth skill use, extra initiative for a total of 15 you get a build that can maintain permanent uptime.

Cloak and dagger (dagger-5. costs 4 initiative, grants 4 seconds of stealth, 0.5 sec cooldown, can be used 5 times for 20 seconds of stealth normal initiative regen )

Shadow refuge (utility. grants 2 initiative per stealth, grants 4 seconds of stealth 3 times if you are good with it, 60 sec cooldown)

Hide in Shadows (healing. grants 2 initiative, 4 seconds of stealth, 30 second cooldown)

Blinding Powder (utility. grants 2 initiative, 4 seconds of stealth, 60 second cooldown)

Shadow Trap (utility. grants 2 initiative, 6 seconds of stealth, 30 second cooldown)

Steal ( grants 2 initiative, 45 second cooldown)

There is your permanent up time build when coupled with rendering lag issues, that’s how you shut down a zerg or group attempting to cap a point.

Failed argument. You realize for this so called “permanent uptime” which is heavily based on rendering issues, in which case is not a FIX thief issue, but a FIX rendering issue and mainly constrained to wvwvw anyways. You also have cloak and dagger, a WEAPON ability, I could reach my arms out and slap someone at farther range then this ability, it also can be inconsistent (misses when you are well within range with your target sometimes), this also has to be timed to be done RIGHT AFTER stealth naturally ends otherwise you will get the revealed debuff.

It gets pretty annoying how ignorant people can be (Ive seen High school dropouts that look like Nobel Prize winners compared to these people), when they want to nerf thief or thief abilities because of the RENDERING issue. Lets say there was a bug that everytime an any player got within 2000 range of an ele they were struck by quaggan lightning. They would be outcries from the heavens to nerf ele because those players and their class clearly has an ability that is causing this not a bug in the game.

Not really considering I get 12 initiative back in the 20 seconds of cloak and dagger alone extending the time of stealth another 12 seconds. You don’t even need to use all those skills to maintain permanent uptime, just use them wisely. Its very simple coupled with rendering lag.

And the ignorance continues…..

ddrake.5436:

Wasn’t Blazer P/P? and Lavexis D/P?

anyway, i’m doing a spreadsheet atm showing autoattack damage from every class with every weapon against Light/Medium/Heavy Golems and how quick they take them down with no buffs/traits/gear. so far it’s interesting enough that the professions we think should do more autoattack damage don’t and the ones that shouldn’t do. this of course does not take into account skill/buffs/traits/gear – nothing except auto attack ¹

He is supporting P/P and claiming its superiority, so Im guessing he would use P/P that doesn’t mean his offset isn’t D/D since he also mentioned it. If he is using only P/P and like Shortbow we get to have even ever greater laugh at his expense

@ Deft Dan I will say though his numbers do look like there is a damage buff fueling his numbers, so I would say at the very least the signet

Sevati.6724:

The problem is that Thief stealth abilities when used properly allow permanent uptime.

One thing to consider every 3 seconds a Thief gets 2 initiative back meaning every 6 seconds they can just use cloak and dagger to stealth with what I show here.

Assuming the Hidden Thief for stealth while stealing, Meld with Shadows trait for an extra second of stealth per application, Infusion of Shadow which grants 2 initiative per stealth skill use, extra initiative for a total of 15 you get a build that can maintain permanent uptime.

Cloak and dagger (dagger-5. costs 4 initiative, grants 4 seconds of stealth, 0.5 sec cooldown, can be used 5 times for 20 seconds of stealth normal initiative regen )

Shadow refuge (utility. grants 2 initiative per stealth, grants 4 seconds of stealth 3 times if you are good with it, 60 sec cooldown)

Hide in Shadows (healing. grants 2 initiative, 4 seconds of stealth, 30 second cooldown)

Blinding Powder (utility. grants 2 initiative, 4 seconds of stealth, 60 second cooldown)

Shadow Trap (utility. grants 2 initiative, 6 seconds of stealth, 30 second cooldown)

Steal ( grants 2 initiative, 45 second cooldown)

There is your permanent up time build when coupled with rendering lag issues, that’s how you shut down a zerg or group attempting to cap a point.

Failed argument. You realize for this so called “permanent uptime” which is heavily based on rendering issues, in which case is not a FIX thief issue, but a FIX rendering issue and mainly constrained to wvwvw anyways. You also have cloak and dagger, a WEAPON ability, I could reach my arms out and slap someone at farther range then this ability, it also can be inconsistent (misses when you are well within range with your target sometimes), this also has to be timed to be done RIGHT AFTER stealth naturally ends otherwise you will get the revealed debuff.

It gets pretty annoying how ignorant people can be (Ive seen High school dropouts that look like Nobel Prize winners compared to these people), when they want to nerf thief or thief abilities because of the RENDERING issue. Lets say there was a bug that everytime an any player got within 2000 range of an ele they were struck by quaggan lightning. They would be outcries from the heavens to nerf ele because those players and their class clearly has an ability that is causing this not a bug in the game.

Deft Dan.8016:

I’m not doubting that your math is correct, however, I’m running with 2.7k armor and nearly 100% protection uptime in sPvP and still eating 9k backstabs with no, or little vulnerability applied to me. To me, this means something with the damage calculation is not working properly.

I am not sure he factored in Assassins signet, might stacks, or talents. Because he did not mention build. Also you are probably basing the “9k backstabs” off of the damage log and what it shows what you were killed is actually bugged half the time for instance it will show steal (mug), or Cloak and Dagger, or backstab the total damage received or the damage received from say the other 2

Good work. Please post this on the Spvp forum where A-net balances off of (instead of metrics)

Blazer I am sure lost, reason: Tried to Backstab/HS Blindly in a black powder field.

ImagoX.4718:

Zarrik.3598:

So does the signets passive bonus just not work in-combat? The boon is displayed, but I always appear to be running at normal speed until I leave combat.

Typically any passive signet bonuses go away while the signet is active and in cool-down. There are actually some Traits (in Ranger I know of for sure, maybe other classes too) that specifically grant the passive bonus AS WELL AS the active at the same time, but that’s not the default behavior (AFAIK).

Note, Signet of Shadows DOES have an active effect (according to the wiki), specifically Area Blind when invoked. I’d assume the speed bonus drops while the signet is active and in cooldown – can someone confirm?

It does drop when you activate it. As long as the signet is off cooldown, the speed bonus is applied in AND out of combat just like swiftness

D/P has more dps then P/P, P/D, S/D and pretty much S/P. Blind is not a drawback, its very valuable, especially AOE in group fights like wvwvw. Having the extra combo field is also very valuable. I am sorry that a lot of the horrible thiefs in wvwvw think they are good and contributing by running around as a d/d backstab/burst build solo roaming taking out other solo roaming players 1v1 or 1v2. News flash, helping your servers main forces is what contributes and it takes exponentially more skill to jump into the middle of the enemy zerg during a “firefight” get a couple kills, confuse them (generally, not the condition), and inhibit their retreat, also to live to tell the tale (Like my condition build)

An interrupt saves a downed ally from getting stomped, it also utilized said combo field. I will admit though D/P #3 is clunky.

If you want more of the “pay attention to your surroundings feel” stick with SB

Lan.1968:

I have tested out the different in mobility between each classes, and thief has the most speed overall. An elementalist cannot keep up with the continuous speed bursts and gap closers as a thief, and that’s not including steal. Air attunement (with stacking speed) and teleport may seem fast, but only for a short while. A thief can keep up with an elementalist in terms of how much distance both classes have to cover, and more.

As for a thief against a warrior, the warrior actually has the initial advantage in terms of mobility, with their buff and their skills. However, a thief can close that gap just as fast with HS alone. Forget using utilities, a thief doesn’t even need to consider using shadowstep, roll, or even haste to catch a warrior.

I don’t know what kind of thief you’ve been playing, but I think you should reroll if you seriously think a thief needs some kind of mobility buff. What a joke.

Clearly you need to reroll to a forum for your own class much less a diff game because you did not do that testing. This was done in a BWE and last weekend in the mists. Without a target, the Ele will beat the thief, This is with 30 in acro on the thief, and swiftness built, With the ele S/D and 20 points in air. Actually testing it before you claim, will show different results then what you again, claim. I never said anything about a buff. Illiteracy must be a more common thing these days, perhaps failure in the Public school system?
I was just noting the differences and advertising(or falsified ones).

Ahh, thanks for that.

rmBossa.4621:

lol wait but based off what you said, you still get there. meaning with HS you caught up to the player ,therefore you are MORE mobile. you cant just negate HS.

thieves are def the most mobile solo profession. signet, shortbow, shadowstep

in wvw everyone is up to speed if there in a zerg, but again solo the thief is the best roamer

Wow no point in even posting full responses anymore when people dont read in this thread. They just imagine what people say and respond to their liking.

Simple facts, I implore you to find a friend and test it both from a “rolling start” and from a stop. Ele will beat the thief, and the thief will be out of initiative. Thief vs Warrior, The thief will burst ahead but warrior will catch up and will be on equal ground with the thief, and the thief will be out of initiative. All in a short time too.
It has nothing to do with what I can or Can’t do, those are the limitations set forth in the game, unless you are admitting to speed hacking?

Blazer is just a horrible thief and a troll, don’t listen to him. Anyone who says P/P is better then D/P is playing a different game, probably hello kitty online.

SO was in wvwvw the other day and (this has never happened to me before and all I do is wvwvw). It happened again and again, I jumped into the enemy group as mine was charging so to speak, popped stability and a necro feared me. Last I checked stability protected against fear and it was up on my bar but disappeared the exact second I was feared even though it had quite a bit of it’s duration left. It almost happened like clockwork multiple times as soon as I popped it so it was probably the same necro or on voice comms.

Remove self root, change stun to a 1s daze, increase base IAS by like 20%

Spifnar.4712:

So much misinformation:

Warrior is very mobile, can have perma swiftness which requires a specific (but very usable) setup to attain it. If they want to go nuts with mobility, sword+warhorn and GS is amazing with basically 3 charge abilities and a snare/immob removal

Ele is very mobile, can have perma swiftness with moderate trait/skill investment. But even dagger/dagger (2 charge abilities) is not as mobile as warrior mentioned above. Scepter/dagger has 1 charge and Staff is just not very mobile. Also has a snare/immob removal skill

Thief is very mobile. +25% movement and several teleports. Saying that they can’t use initiative to move around because it keeps you from starting combat at full init is just misleading. Wait until init is full, and use a move skill to travel 900 units every ~5-6 seconds (or a short heartseeker leap every 3 sec if SB is not for you). They also have the best in-combat mobility with several shadowstep abilities and charge abilities, plus flashback.

On initiative vs cooldown:

Neither is always better, but it depends on the cooldown vs init cost. An ele using a 30s cooldown for swiftness means there’s a good chance he’ll miss out on using it for freedom (snare/immob removal) later on. It’s even worse when when using Static Field (40s cooldown) for swiftness blasts, because that ability is often used to initiate combat.

Now, using warrior sword (8s)/GS (~10s and 20s) or ele using Ride the Lightning (15s) has less risk, because the ability is more likely to be up because you can usually se combat coming.

Initiative recharges at 1 pt/sec, so using SB to travel will put you 6s away from full init. Not bad, but init affects all abilities. So if you’re jumped right after porting, it’s a lot rougher than being jumped and having 1 movement skill on cooldown. In general, thieves have it better as long as they have situational awareness.

lol???

Very wrong. an Ele with small spec for mobility will out run ANY warrior even if they have perma swiftness. That is only with Sceptor/dagger too

Noone said they CAN’T use initiative to move, please what is up with people not reading today. I said it is ineffecient and a horrible way to justify any balancing/or considering the class one of the most mobile.
Sure thief is ONE of the most mobile IN combat, but still not THE most. wth is Flashback? People posting like they know what they are talking about but make up skill names…

Here is also a common misconception. Dodging (in GW2) =/= (does not equal) mobility. Dodging = defense. Dodging is a form of defense, not mobility. Stealth is also a form of defense, NOT mobility

A lot of classes have teleports and movement abilities that can be used in AND out of combat. This is yet another reason why cooldowns are better for mobility then initiative. Unless the only thing you do in this game is use utility and elite skills when fighting?…. You are going to be using the initiative for your weapon abilities whilst in combat. To have equal or close to equal mobility as some of the classes mentioned above you will need to use HS/IA, Infiltrators strike/shadowreturn, Shadowstep/shadowreturn. Most of those are requiring initiative.
Again, so a warrior spins and charges in and out of combat much easier as an example (we are talking mobility not defense, so not stealth or dodging), because they are part of the weapon abilities and cooldowns, so while in combat they can use their heavy hitting attacks and their movement ones to get out to repeat the process. Warriors also have far easier access to perma swiftness and swiftness is greater then the 25% from the signet.

frans.8092:

Signet of Shadows doesn’t work in combat, it’s only use is to travel faster.

Yes it does work in combat, unless they broke it with the last patch.
If you normally run at 100% out of combat without it it, and 65% in combat.
The 25% bonus in combat is going to be less noticeable. These are just examples