Guild Wars 2

I play thief and I honestly wouldn’t care if A-net did a complete redesign and turned us into a melee version of a necro without pets even, as long as they gave us a little more tanky and twice as much mobility as an air specced ele. But thief in its current state, however a bit off from what A-net advertised they were going to be, is NOT overpowered.

On a more serious note. @ Labotimy:
By your opinion, if 4/8 of the classes are overpowered, in turn someone with the same philosophy could argue that the other 4 are just underpowered and the 4 you mentioned are on a balanced level and would still hold equal weight without hypocrisy in their statement. So seeing as that is equal terms, your argument holds little weight in evidence.

Ummm. With full condition damage gear and gems your Ticks would be hitting for far more then that even in greens, unless you are not true 80 yet.

Very Incorrect BobbyT.

If an ele specs just a little bit into air they can get in and out of combat faster then any thief, which means much higher travel speed too.

A warrior with the right weapon setup, can move as fast as a thief can (if the thief doesn’t blow his initiative), meaning once one reaches any combat the warrior will have no wait time and can fluidly enter combat right away, whilst the thief (if he blew his initiative to be faster) has to wait. This is an actual part where initiative is a curse, in terms of movement and also means the thief in actuality a less mobile class then say a warrior (unless you actually think you can do even half the things there is to do in this game without any combat and just traveling (and blowing your initiative))

Now add in the fact the thief is the only class lacking in a straight up 1200 range weapon. Something most narrow minded people do not see is; Range = Mobility
Being able to use a fluid set of abilities/weapon attacks at more range means you have not only better observation of the flow of combat, making it easier to tell when to enter/exit, but you also obviously do not need to enter into (get into close range) the enemy mob to do the main source of your damage therefore making you less susceptible to not only damage but mobility inhibiting attacks (like cripple or immobilize) AS WELL. Note: with every class except 1 having a natural state 1200 range weapon (even if the guardians is sup par its still 1200) anything distance smaller 1200 range is now considered close range

Another thought to consider; A class that can do a full rotation of say moderate damage/condition attacks at 1200 range has an exponentially greater impact on the enemy group(s) then a class that can only do a similar full rotation at high/very high damage/condition but has to be in close range. This is due to the natural survivability difference.
EX: The high/damage close range class might get a quick kill but will get CCed/insta gibbed by a group consisting of equally or close to equally skilled players.
Whilst the moderate damage/condition 1200/+ range rotation class can actually pop in and pop out of their max combat range at hearts content whilst their teammates fight as well, or at least survive till the teammates arrive whilst continuing combat. AOE makes it even worse off for the close range class.

Now I only mentioned 2 of the at least 3 classes in this case that can actually match or supersede a thief in mobility/travel time.

Shintai.5618:

Try do a shootout vs a warriour for example. just shoot 1. Warriour will do both more direct and conditional damage.

Seems the thiefs only real bonus is we can spam the same skill a few times in the start. And then it just goes downhill from there.

yea I wouldnt even mind if they spread out our damage, but give us something for more mobility, or something to nullify combat speed reduction. There are a few classes that can actually move across the field faster then a thief and without sacrificing anything that would kitten them if they ran into a fight (like sapping initiative for IA or HS as mobility speed tools) .

because that would make some builds for multiple classes very overpowered. Builds that normally just stack Power, Crit, and Crit damage would have the best of all worlds.

I think even if they dont touch Condition damage scaling, some of the lackluster conditions should probably be buffed.
The ones id pick out for being buffed:
1.Poison, I would change it to stack in intensity like Bleed
2.Chill, making this a lot more available to a lot of classes would actually inadvertently increase TTK a little bit across the board in most cases but not enough to be a bad thing
3. Weakness, same as chill. This is more of an Anti-thief condition compared to chill

I do agree I can see some areas lacking, even in wvwvw tho as far as mobility.
I feel our acrobatics tree, which is the only logical place where you would expect to see quite a bit of movement increasing talents like Elementalists have in Air, is severely lacking.

I mean 33% faster movement in stealth? In a game with such short stealth duration, really?
2 !!!! sec of swiftness.. ?

ofc we have assassin’s retreat, but requires you to kill a foe, in many cases especially when outnumbered we are supposed to be by design to jump in do some damage (even if it means NOT killing) and jumping out. Not to mention anyone can get that with a sigil

then we have Hard to Catch but heh it has a cooldown.

Id trade ALL 4 for 1 trait like “Movement speed increased by 25% when wielding a Pistol (or insert weapon here)” or maybe a 30 point trait like “Combat movement speed reduction cut by 50%”

Honestly if there was a way to spec where you give up a lot of damage but could move like that legitimately I would do it in a heartbeat (almost wish we could), but yea he is obviously a hacker

1. All class played by any Player that learned to adapt
2. All classes played by any Player that did not post asking for nerfs
3..
4…
5…
6…
7…
8.
9. All classes played by players that are unwilling to adapt and make troll threads or ask for nerfs

I love this 2 second kills everyone keeps talking about yet noone has been able to provide a SINGLE shred of evidence. A screenshot of the death window telling what hit you from 100% till you were dead, does NOT, I repeat does NOT show the time it took for your death and half the time people post those are after being hit by 2 of the same class. All of the builds in the game that allow the fastest possible kill in game currently, rely on cooldowns of at least 30 seconds, more-so around the minute area EVEN THIEF, so I love the exaggeration of all these whiners depicted X class that can move faster then a bullet jumping from player to player insta gibbing them with no downtime. With that imagination I would honestly not be surprised if we started seeing people claiming that dodging is OP and <insert some disgustingly exaggerated number here>

Just a little knack for fun on the guy with the detailed tier list. An elementalist fully built for mobility will have quite a bit more mobility then a thief fully built for mobility. Keep that in mind. Otherwise the thread is full of trolling

Ok I get it now, but you still didn’t answer what I said about CnD.

Also, damage wouldnt need to be touched on PW really if the self root was gone, but id 100% be willing to take a damage hit and loss of stun for mobility, these huge kills with PW are with quickness, there is no way around it, unless you are hitting an afk player/npc. Also note you can have a max 10 seconds of quickness every minute if you have the sigil+trait+haste and that is with all stars aligned. 10 seconds is not that much for combat uptime.

I hate to throw the thread a curveball on topic, but the problem with quickness for thief is double sided. Some abilities (mainly sword) are far too slow naturally for a class that is supposed to jump in an kill/not kill a target, and jump right back out. The self root on PW is the main issue, the attack speed is the nail in the coffin.

A casual guild pretty much starting up (had it since release, made it with a friend with quicker goals in mind but he quit soon after). Already has Politics 1+2, Emblem and Art of War 1. Now that I have 2 80’s and no longer have the desire to level any more characters, I feel it is a good time to see if anyone wants to join.

Looking for members who want to have fun primarily and help each other out.
No level requirement
No tax and you won’t ever catch me asking/requiring gold or items from members
If you wanted to donate for a commander book per say, that is entirely up to you. Your fun is far more important then some silly little status that I may or may not even be qualified for.

Will definitely need officers that are willing to help recruit.

I like to participate in all aspects which includes Spvp, PVE, and WvWvW.

All classes are welcome, however my main goal is too have enough thief players for a guerrilla tactics group in wvwvw once and awhile (my first 80 is a thief) and don’t worry if you are not a thief player you won’t get left out.

If Interested throw me a PM/Mail
Thanks

A. How are you doing double backstab.
B. How are you doing 5k with CnD I am pretty sure that just shows up when by mistake when the backstab is hit so quickly after (happens to me when I accidentally leave auto attack on)
C. Pistol whip is easy to explain away, it shouldn’t self root in the first place on a “Mobility” based class, so once that is fixed, Steal won’t necc be needed in that situation even if they end up reducing the damage on it to make up for loss of self root

Won’t let me edit (meant to say forum not thread)

Since there is such a flood of misinformation in this thread to even scare Noah. I will show you the wisdom.

For Pistol whip to be spammed, Quickness has to be applied.
For quickness to be applies thief has a trait (10% chance on a crit with a long cooldown), they also have access to a sigil (same as the trait), and Haste which drains ALL of their endurance (hint hint) and has a 60 second cooldown (they can trait for a lower cooldown but its deep enough in trickery they lose some damage/survivability)

So with that in mind, you will only probably see a thief have quickness 3 times in a full minute, right? Their quickness also only lasts 3s if it is the sigil or trait proc, and 4s if it is from haste. That is at most 10 seconds of spam/ minute at most, with stars aligned.

10s/minute certainly doesn’t sound like the thief you and all these complainers make it out to be jumping from target to target spamming abilities with super speed quickness with 100% uptime and 100% crit chance making planets explode and shooting lighting bolts from its rear.

Next. Pistol Whip SELF ROOTS!
If you dodge once you are out of the range of the ability. The thief cannot just move and keep spamming the ability without stopping. If you get rooted by a thief or turned to stone by a thief (1 regular venom, 1 elite venom) and the thief does not have quickness applied, the condition will still end before the entire animation of the ability giving you ample time to dodge. If you do not dodge or do not bring a stun break that is YOUR fault, it is not A-net’s fault, it is not the thief’s fault, it is not Grandma’s fault. YOUR fault.

Note: Once A-net wisens up about the huge mistake of putting self root on ANY ability for a class that is completely designed on mobility, they will remove it. Then perhaps you can make some threads with dignity.

Pray.9751:

They didn’t claim to balance around tpvp, in fact they specifically stated that they will not do that but rather “balance the game as a whole” meaning w^3 and pve aswell

everyone just hopes that people with a functioning brain at anet will win the argument

i wouldn’t be too certain tho, 8v8 pretty much showed there are forces at work far beyond rationality

I know they didn’t claim they are going to balance around tpvp/spvp. People just like to make stuff up and throw it around like they have some magical A-net quote in their pocket that is opposite of what 99% of the community has actually seen them state.
They did say they would balance around all 3.

Shomaruki.7395:

^Wolfe I’m going to give you the same offer I tell everyone else. I want to see you dodge something in stealth near you. Unless you a physic I don’t see it happening. The duration of PW is longer then duration of dodge.

As for any other classes, I’ve walked away from 3v1 battles simply playing cripple clone warfare.

A physic what? Professor? Physical Therapist? Physician?

Key hint: PW stun is extremely short
Key hint 2: PW self roots the thief.

Just wait till A-net learns a self rooting ability is moronic on a class designed around mobility, and fixes it, then we will see some threads!

Nande.6810:

Wops pardon me! I’ll change that change that when i get to a computer. I know perfectly fine how DB works cuz that’s my main damage dealer with my build.

I’m just saying as it is right now I go with 2 pistols on swith to get headshot and black poweder, and I spend stealth utility to get more bleeds up. Removing the reauirement to spend utility would be a massive damage + utility buff to that condition build.

Well this would be with Dagger/pistol not Pistol/Pistol. It doesnt add massive of anything because the drawback is that dagger/pistol is melee. Pistol/Pistol has its own flavor even if some of the abilities like unload and #1 are lackluster you still have range. . If anything Pistol/Pistol just needs to be buffed up a tad regardless if they switched DB and HS

Yea, kinda fail because the bright and intelligent designers added a positional on a staple ability for a class with very limited stealth even when specced for it. So unless the target has their back to you when you steal+CnD, you still gotta move around them, and if they move at any time, or if they dodge, or if there are a ton of partical effects flying around so you cant tell front/back.. you are porked

Keep seeing people “claiming” that A-net said they are going to balance the game around Spvp, yet everytime they are asked to provide the link, they do not. I have faith that A-net has more intelligence then a monkey.

@ Nande you quoted what I said but used someone elses name.

It wouldnt be too strong because the distance of the leap on death blossom is not the same as heartseeker so you still have to work more to keep in range then how it is now with Black powder-> heartseeker You would be losing heartseeker as dagger/pistol and getting a lower damage ability that adds bleeds (and dodges), shorter leap but puts you behind the target if you are close enough (pretty much auto attack range to get behind them)

A lot of what is said is true, but am I the only one that things DB doesn’t “feel” like it should be the dual skill, spammed or not I think heartseeker feels more of that role.
switching both in respective slots, switching init costs, and giving DB the combo finisher feels more like it makes more sense.

This would make dagger/dagger still be a staple for burst/glass cannon builds with HS used as a finisher, whilst opening up a ton more options for dagger/X

Example: Dagger/Pistol Backstab build. With the switches spots and giving DB the combo finisher one could black powder then hit DB which would stealth the thief AND place them behind the target for a backstab. At the same time they are trading off not having Heartseeker to finish the target. Also opens up more options for condition builds as well

Guardians in tournaments. Well wouldn’t that be your teams fault for not bringing a Necro or any condition based build thief, mes, ranger, warrior, or ele ?
I see a lot of complaining about comp, if they are bringing a lot of 1 class and 1 build, and you bring a lot of 1 build that their team is built to counter (ie: glass cannons) that is no a balance issue but a planning ahead issue on your part.

KaiserCX.7103:

@Knyx not letting me quote, these forums are weird sometimes. If they were to speed up and remove the root on Pistol Whip then they definitely need to lower the damage, personally I’d be happy with the change. It’d be less burst damage but more reliable I think.

I suggested they make FS a shadow step behind a while back as well, just make the first attack an evasive attack then shadow step behind. I wish they would do this or at least add immobilize to the first hit of FS as Dual suggested, it would at least be a decent band-aid. With that they still need to make it dodge during the entire spin animation. Another issue I have with it is it feels clunky, you can’t really use it as a reactionary dodge due to it not cancelling out your current attack and the start up of it not actually dodging anything. Perhaps if sword #1 was faster it wouldn’t be quite as bad, but they would have to reduce the damage on it. Personally I dislike the idea of parry/block it could be too abusable with our imitative, I mean look at Nine-Tail Strike underwater.

Well the fix that I am sure is coming for quickness across the board of all classes, I don’t think a damage reduction will be needed on Pistol whip or any sword abilities with the removal self root and quickened attack times

R E F L H E X.8413:

Knyx.5926:

R E F L H E X.8413:

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

You realize you just made no sense right?
You realize your mesmer has weapons that have 1200 range right?
You realize ALL classes have weapons with 1200 range except thief?
That is why I was just using that as an example. It is an example like that where you would only really notice the inherent flaw in having 1 class singled out in that department in wvwvw, where you wouldn’t really notice it as much of a flaw at all in spvp. Hence why balance will not just commence around spvp.

You realize my 1200 range isn’t special just for wvw right?

Knyx.5926:

@REFLHEX

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. wvwvw offers a lot more then just armor/orb bonuses (example: the fact that all classes have a 1200 range weapon except 1 is easier to see as a balance issue in wvwvw then it does in spvp) . As i stated in my analogy a class can be amazing in spvp and at the same time lacking in wvwvw. I am sure they will balance around all 3, not just 1.

It’s the same for spvp as it is for wvw.

Here’s what people need to start doing : reading the context something was written in before they add in their opinion.

You probably want to start reading what you type before you hit the reply button.
Again you make no sense..
Example:
Where did I say the weapons were only wvwvw? I really laughed at the one, is english not your first language or something?

If you read, I said it is more noticeable IN WVWVW the INHERENT FLAW there is to have all classes but 1 have a 1200 range weapon where it is not as noticeable in spvp.

also reading you would see i mentioned that as an example.

Gilgamesh.2561:

Knyx.5926:

Gilgamesh.2561:

In my opinion quickness should be reworked so that it instead speeds up recharging of skills, say by 25% or 30% for X seconds. Drop any adverse effects, they’re annoying.

For example, Elixir U would simply read: All skills recharge 25% faster for 5 seconds.

However, this would need to apply to skills currently on CD as well.

No thanks, this would pork the thief as it does not have cooldowns on it’s weapon abilities.

It would still apply to utility and healing skills. You may be nerfed in the long run, but some say the burst potential of the thief needs it anyway.

Then they will most certainly have to speed up the thief sword attacks because are far too slow for a class based around mobility. They also have to remove the self root from pistol whip, again a class built around mobility, might make sense on warrior but not thief.

Gilgamesh.2561:

In my opinion quickness should be reworked so that it instead speeds up recharging of skills, say by 25% or 30% for X seconds. Drop any adverse effects, they’re annoying.

For example, Elixir U would simply read: All skills recharge 25% faster for 5 seconds.

However, this would need to apply to skills currently on CD as well.

No thanks, this would pork the thief as it does not have cooldowns on it’s weapon abilities.

Here is the pie chart you asked for.

R E F L H E X.8413:

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

You realize you just made no sense right?
You realize your mesmer has weapons that have 1200 range right?
You realize ALL classes have weapons with 1200 range except thief?
That is why I was just using that as an example. It is an example like that where you would only really notice the inherent flaw in having 1 class singled out in that department in wvwvw, where you wouldn’t really notice it as much of a flaw at all in spvp. Hence why balance will not just commence around spvp.

Cufflink.3985:

When I was thinking of block, I was thematically envisioning it as a parry/riposte and follow through, which would fit a swashbuckling rogue/thief archetype fairly well. A pure block like a warriors would feel a bit odd, that is true.

I would also like the #1 attack to be sped up, even at the cost of reduced damage per hit. Feels lethargic compared to the other weapons.

Well I have been making threads asking to speed up the sword hits on #1 and PW. As well as removing the self root. I think the self root is the biggest issue and needs to go, as for speeding up the attacks: I think this would be perfectly balanced as long as something is done about quickness for every class.

It may be a parry or reposite for all intents and purposes but its still a block in the game. The only way I can see it making sense with our class is if its activated and not channeled so it would be more like having an ability that instantly gave you aegis. With the other Warrior/Guardian-ish block abilities you can’t just sit there and use other abilities while its doing the channel, if we had one, we would need to be able to use other abilities.

@REFLHEX

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. wvwvw offers a lot more then just armor/orb bonuses (example: the fact that all classes have a 1200 range weapon except 1 is easier to see as a balance issue in wvwvw then it does in spvp) . As i stated in my analogy a class can be amazing in spvp and at the same time lacking in wvwvw. I am sure they will balance around all 3, not just 1.

R E F L H E X.8413:

“The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. "

1. The real players are the ones who will be asking for legit nerfs on things that are of balancing concern.

2. Not crying because they lost to something.

3. Now, if you think playing pve or wvw will effect your knowledge of what is imbalanced or not, I would like to know how doing a dungeon on a mesmer will let me know guardian is imba in pvp. It won’t.

4. Now, with that aside, PvP is the full game to some players. Some people (like myself) really have no interest in pve, however pve is the best thing gw2 has to offer atm.

Your talk on balance is funny, it’s like you think they want to balance these casual formats like the esport format in guildwars one. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They might balance it like that if they make those formats but not in these.

1. The real players don’t come in here and ask for nerfs. The real players will submit them the same way you do bug reports or won’t ask for nerfs at all. Want to know why? Because only a extremely tiny fraction of the nerfs being asked for are actually needed. Want to know why? Because the real players have already proven that there are counters. Want to know how? They spent time, configuring, tweaking and coming up with builds and ways to counter.

2. Crying/QQing/L2p is only really used by a younger generation that sees fit to lack any maturity and only demeans themselves. Sure there is a lot of complaining. Complaining =/= crying

3. Again, someone else on here that sees fit to put words in my mouth. Feel free to quote exactly where I said the balance changes would be made on pve ALONE? I am waiting

4. You didn’t really make any sense here. Redo

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Knyx.5926:

@R E F L H E X.8413

1/3rd not 1.3rd.
It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.

If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Obviously this is the spvp forum, but I see a heck of a lot of nerf this, buff that threads or sarcastic balance requests from people that not only just do spvp and nothing else, but 90% of the time the problems they asking to be solved by A-net, could be solved by themselves.

The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. These are the people that even if all they do is spvp, spend all the time they need to test build after build. The end result, is every single time, they find a counter to every other build out there. At the same time the people that come on here that complain, do not want to have to spend that time they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. They want ALL possible the viable builds and counters in the game to be plastered on a website with some easy reading and tutorials (maybe some pictures too) from the get go.

I will admit there are quite a few bugs for each class to bear, and I have faith they will be fixed before (anymore) balance changes commence, because they should have been before (any) balance changes were made in the first place. Sure there might be some tweaks to non bugged abilities or talents, or abilities that do not make sense with the class design at all (like self rooting on an ability on a mobility based class ex:PW), but other then that, it is not doom and gloom unbalanced like everyone seems to make it out to be, not even close. Since all balance changes A-net is known for, and has made already are sweeping (effecting spvp+wvwvw+pve) they will balance it based on all 3.

I will give you an example:
If a class 1shots everyone in spvp, can have perma protection and 30k hp. However in PVE up against the end game mobs and bosses this same class is weaker then all the other classes in every way, and in wvwvw also gets exceeded by every other class. Nerfing them because of spvp, will mean you will never see that class at least outside of mists so why make it an option to level up/wvwvw in the first place.

They spent a lot of time and money (Resources) on PVE and wvwvw. Saying they are going to balance around spvp only makes you look very naive, and it also is insulting to A-net since you think all those resources were wasted.

They have stated that they are balancing the game around tPVP. So it kind of makes you look silly. And that if they have to they will split the abilities between pve and pvp.

Interesting because I do not see where they said it. Feel free to post a link.

@R E F L H E X.8413

1/3rd not 1.3rd.
It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.

If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Obviously this is the spvp forum, but I see a heck of a lot of nerf this, buff that threads or sarcastic balance requests from people that not only just do spvp and nothing else, but 90% of the time the problems they asking to be solved by A-net, could be solved by themselves.

The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. These are the people that even if all they do is spvp, spend all the time they need to test build after build. The end result, is every single time, they find a counter to every other build out there. At the same time the people that come on here that complain, do not want to have to spend that time they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. They want ALL possible the viable builds and counters in the game to be plastered on a website with some easy reading and tutorials (maybe some pictures too) from the get go.

I will admit there are quite a few bugs for each class to bear, and I have faith they will be fixed before (anymore) balance changes commence, because they should have been before (any) balance changes were made in the first place. Sure there might be some tweaks to non bugged abilities or talents, or abilities that do not make sense with the class design at all (like self rooting on an ability on a mobility based class ex:PW), but other then that, it is not doom and gloom unbalanced like everyone seems to make it out to be, not even close. Since all balance changes A-net is known for, and has made already are sweeping (effecting spvp+wvwvw+pve) they will balance it based on all 3.

I will give you an example:
If a class 1shots everyone in spvp, can have perma protection and 30k hp. However in PVE up against the end game mobs and bosses this same class is weaker then all the other classes in every way, and in wvwvw also gets exceeded by every other class. Nerfing them because of spvp, will mean you will never see that class at least outside of mists so why make it an option to level up/wvwvw in the first place.

They spent a lot of time and money (Resources) on PVE and wvwvw. Saying they are going to balance around spvp only makes you look very naive, and it also is insulting to A-net since you think all those resources were wasted.

@ Phoenix It wouldnt be stupid. Currently the entire sword set is 66% against the root design of thief. If anything they will lower the damage on PW or nerf quickness, remove the self root and increase the attack speed on all sword attacks..

even a block is pretty much against the design of a thief. We are supposed to be dodging and evading. Blocking would naturally be the mind set of sticking around and waiting for the hit instead of dodging when we are supposed to be a; get in and get out class

The current sword set for theif is like if they gave Warrior a weapon set that attacked quick and gave them shadow step or acrobatic dodge abilities. With sword as it is #2 is the only one that actually fits for thief, the others feel like they were designed by someone that thought they were designing it for a brawler, punching bag class.

just give us Shadow return as F2 so steal has a use for ranged builds

@ Ryuujin I actually like those suggestions a lot. Whichever road was taken. I am definitely leaning towards having clones mirror the casting of the Mes. That is not even unbalancing if anything since they are supposed to be clones, really a QoL (bug?) fix

I think a block is a nice touch but I would still rather it just shadow step you behind the target and add a combo to it so if a field is up you are stealthed by the time you are behind them, adding fluidity.

@ Dual I have faith in A-net that they will remove the self root on PW, one way or another. Makes negative sense on a mobility dependent class.

If anything smoke screen needs a buff

The only change I could see with DB is switch it with heartseeker. So it will now be a dagger mainhand ability and Heartseeker is now the dual skill, requiring D/D. Switch the initiative costs and give DB the combo. Increase the damage of heartseeker on targets below 50% enough to make the higher initiative cost worth it and make hs unusable (greyed out) till the target is at 50%. Now defining it as an execute, and with DB having the combo, being dagger main hand, and the fact it leaps over the target adds some new sweet combos even to builds like backstab

EX: Blackpowder → Death Blossom → Backstab Talk about fluid combat

bwillb.2165:

AoE knockbacks and interrupts and things of that nature will work just fine to stop stealth-stomps and stealth-rezzes. And heavy AoE damage in the area will make the thief waste their very limited stealth while dodging it. There’s nothing really to fix here.

Also, nerf to passive speed? What? Thieves have the same passive speed as everyone else. We have a nice speed boost signet, but it loses almost all of its effectiveness when you’re in combat. Which, by the way, if the thief has to stealth and run away from something, they often get stuck in combat for a good while.

Exactly, and don’t forget there are other classes that can actually move across the field faster (ie: mobility) then a thief without blowing hefty cooldowns or wasting initiative

@ Koix Thank you for the insight and constructive critique.
I will admit the moa change was primarily based on Necros, and like some of the other changes I suggested also like a middle ground that I thought would be something you could expect from A-net since it would be easier for them to implement. The thing with the necro pets is though, what happens if a necro summons a pet out of combat, then replaces that utility skill with something else, its the same mechanic that despawns them because of MoA, I don’t think fixing it one way will not break it in the other.

Wolfe.3097:

i disagree with removing backstabs positional requirement, that is a risk vs reward situation, those should be encouraged, not dumbed down.

as for stealth, i dont know how i feel about that idea. seeing as i dont know how many non target required boon stripping there is.

I will admit that was the change with the least amount of thought. I did it with the attempt to remove more of the 1 trick pony building. Just because it simplifies one end doesn’t mean it’s not needed nor does it mean dumbing down. I don’t think positional requirements make much sense in a game without perma stealth or at least a base line that lasts at least 10 seconds. Add that to abilities in the game that actually cause auto facing (because there is), the knockbacks, knockdowns etc. Plus on really small engagements (more like 1v1) the positioning is something you can surely live with, but on larger ones and with all the partical effects without that high yield stealth it doesn’t make sense at all

@ Koix Why do the targetable ones need to have anything to do with it?
The ground targetable ones are enough. There is also a table included with that ability and stealth, as to which one is really stripped first. Balancing that could just be position on that table.

Currently quickness is creating too many 1 trick pony builds, and even thought it may be bad players unwilling to adapt it doesnt mean they are 100% in the wrong. This makes the ability more reactable, and still be viable since the duration will be increased giving you more time to decide which ability to use it on. With the internal cooldown on the talent and sigil quickness procs being cut in half, that again means more quickness popping. I probably should have also suggested a reduced cooldown on all quickness utility abilities. I was going for a weaker but more reactable quickness, that occurs more often.

Moa would not be useless, they would not have access to ANY of their weapon abilities. Currently moa is despawning necro minions. This is something that should NOT happen. I play a mesmer and see no problem with classes being able to heal or stealth while transformed, they are still out of action as far as helping their team or really retaliating for the duration.

The Warden change i suggested would probably be a lot simpler (for Anet) and more balanced then having it move at all times while attacking. That would make it Overpowered, it does a LOT of damage during that whirl as it is.

I am glad you like the Pistol whip change, what about the backstab/sword speed changes?

I def could see it being talent related to bring shortbow to 1200 range. That makes it fist I guess since Ranger has to do the same to bring their longbow beyond it.

@ Dust Bunny. I am done with the childish bandwagon responses.

Dust Bunny.1652:

You want the same range for shortbow on thief, as for the ranger.
I just gave an example where the same weapon has different range for different class.
Take a hint hint.

I will say it again, balance considering WvW issues will never happen. Balance in the current system will only happend because of sPvP/tourney.
PVE balance will only be in the form of mobs getting their damage nerfed or buffed.

Just an example, if you had 20 guardians in a keep, spamming SoA and Sancruary at the gate so people would be knocked of rams and kitten, also spamming sanctuary around the keep lord (whatever the npc name is), ANET will not nerf a thing.

Heartseeker was not nerfed because of WvW, nor was tome of courage. Just understand that no balance will take place skillwise, unless unbalanced skills will have a PVE, sPVP and WvW version.

1. I will repeat since you seem to discount we have already went over this.
Yes the Guardian scepter has 1200 range. Yes the ele scepter does not. However, the ele has weapons with 1200 range, so do ALL classes except the thief.

2. This is a mistake on your part and again you are just insulting A-net. What is with this naive thinking. The game will not be balanced around Spvp, tourney included, alone. It will be balanced around ALL 3. I would think this would be obvious so I am kind of just at awh.

Heartseeker change was based on having 75% of the threads on the front page everyday being complaits about heartseeker, even with only a few replies each because the same generation that likes to bandwagon also likes to have to most attention. They also put that change on heartseeker, nerf or tweak whatever you want to call it, within hours of making an official statement claiming they will not be making ANY balance changes till the game matures more. I am however forgiving and giving A net a chance to redeem themselves at this point and I dont even use heartseeker more then once every maybe 2 fights.

I agree it will be difficult to balance changes on wvwvw out of the 3, for things like damage/healing amount. But for effects, or baseline items like knockdown duration, range of a weapon or exploitable mechanics like you mentioned from a guardian those are far easier.

No need to put it in the OP, I honestly couldn’t care that much of where I come from, because if they are so caught up on that, then they don’t really care about balance in the first place.
Again if you have a suggested change to bring the guardian scepter more in line, please do. I tried but I couldnt successfully come up with anything basing on everything else they bring (since it already 1200 range you gotta change damage/attack speed)

@ Dust Bunny, There is your problem again. You made the snickerish comment like I did not have those. I only made the statement in the OP because some of the complainers on these forums tend to jump on a thread with ANY suggested change and say “well you must play those classes”, which is childish, and I beat them to the punch even tho not all these changes are all for mesmer and thief.

Also, you have that mindset that the game is 100% spvp. Where you get that free 80. You probably are also thinking the game should be balanced all around spvp. That is extremely naive and kind of insulting to A-net with the time and money they spent.
If someone only played spvp and is rank 80, they still only understand 1/3 of the game.
There is something called a skill-cap, so someone who is only rank 10-15 but has a real lvl 80 and competes in wvwvw has a LOT more experience on what is supposedly unbalanced then someone who is high rank and only played in spvp.

Dust Bunny.1652:

1. Balance around WvW will never happen.

2. Bringing up the worst ranged weapon in the game as example (guardian scepter) is really not funny.

3. FYI, even if the guardian scepter has 1200 range, ele scepter has 900 range mostly. You should know this right, you play ele in sPvP.

1. You already said that exact statement. Do you read what you type or even read my rebuttal. Putting words in my mouth again is not helping your argument.

2-3. uhh. I did say it was a bad weapon but I also explained what they do for their team at the same time (I also mentioned any additions that you thought should be made to include them with mature and constructive reasoning, something you should have done with the guardian+scepter hint hint). What does any of this have to do with ele using a scepter?..

Dust Bunny.1652:

I might have disregarded ground targeted skills, like Null Filed for stripping boons. Any other ones you have in mind? Not so many huh? Only WoC and NF would work to remove stealth as a boon. Great thinking.

And not every class has 1200 ranged options (e.g. Guardian). Shortbow is “short”-bow for a reason.
Stop acting stupid on purpose by bringing WvW into a balance issue. The game will never, hear me ya, never be balanced around WvW.

There are more that can strip it, even via talents, but thats the problem. Everyone who complains think it should be handed to them.
Guardian has scepter… while it isn’t the best weapon it is still 1200 range. They also have tons of options for keeping their defending group/attacking group alive. We already know they are strong in spvp and pve.
Again, you are right it IS a shortbow, that is why you can get more range with a Longbow to exceed it. The ranger shortbow (as you said “Short-bow”) has 1200 range. The weapon is not called the “rangers shortbow”, it is a shortbow.
I also never said the game should be balanced around wvwvw, but it has to be balanced around ALL 3. You are just attempting to put words in my mouth.

I guess you missed the part where I said Mature criticism. Acting like a child only demeans yourself, doesn’t effect me.

@Kagemitsu Maturity? nope. Quoting or tagging parts explaining how they are supposedly buffing those classes? 0 for 2.

@Dust Bunny If you rely on quickness, that means you are relying on 1 trick pony builds. Even the devs will tell you that is your fault and has nothing to do with game balance.

It makes A LOT of difference. You tell me I have no understanding of how the game works but in the same post say there is no utility that can strip or convert boons without a target. I can 100% tell you there are multiple (Key hint: Ground placement)
There are also abilities in the game that steal boons, there are also mechanics that increase boon duration, even tho on such a short duration boon won’t have a large difference.

Shortbow on a Ranger has 1200 range. Every class has a sustained 1200 range weapon. With promoted zerg vs zerg gameplay, and to even compete in things like wvwvw defense, thief needs one too, even if it means reducing damage (did you read the part about damage reduction?) Longbow on a ranger can get up to much more then 1200 range….

If you have a problem believing I have those 80s, would you like to see a screenshot of my character select?

Arcane.4950:

only 2 changes to ele?

how about fixing all the bufs and making ele dps viable in competitive pvp

Fixing would mean bugs. I did state that these changes would be made with the expectation that the major bug fixes were already done (which is why I didn’t include any bug fixes in my suggestions keeping it a LOT shorter of a post)

Also I think ele dps is extremely viable. That is the main class i play in spvp, not even my real 80s. If you are building for dps and not support, don’t just make glass cannon. Build around ranged and PB aoe, getting in, getting out, and getting right back in to the fray. I have toasted 3 pple sitting on a node by myself doing this with constantly switching attunements.

Ele is also pretty much the #1 class in wvwvw. Also from what I have seen a very valuable part of any dungeon group with the most support.

1. it is harder to build around conditions if your class mostly has random condition causing abilities.

1. there are many sigil, talents and set bonuses that increase condition duration.

1. Any time you build a 1 trick pony, there are always gonna be simple ways to keep your pony out of the race
   Hint: build around conditions primary and something secondary, not 100% conditions.