Guild Wars 2

That’s the size of it, jotun did lose their magic at 2 but not necessarily crumbled due to that – given others besides Thurln the Lost (including the ghostly Elder Thruln in the norn personal storyline) states that it was jotun pride which caused civil wars and crumbled their society, not the loss of magic – though it was likely the combination of the two (magic limited their society, and their pride brought them down on each other shortly thereafter).

And we have no indication other than Thruln the Lost on the norn’s relation to the jotun – and given how he’s telling it, he could easily be twisting it a bit so that the norn, his audience, likes it and continues telling it for him (the reason why he’s telling it at all).

If you take note, everything in this thread actually argues that the Pale Tree is NOT a champion of the sixth Elder Dragon – rogue or otherwise. Because, quite frankly, nothing supports it but the vivid imaginations and desires of the playerbase who try to connect things that aren’t actually there. There is a tie between Mordremoth and the Nightmare and in turn the Nightmare Court, but not sylvari on a whole let alone the Pale Tree or the Dream of Dreams (directly).

Mordremoth is as connected to the Pale Tree as it is to the White Stag.

And nothing hints to the Dream of Dreams being a creation of the Pale Tree (in fact, she out right states that she did not create it and does not fully understand what it is! Which heavily implies that it predates her by a long shot).

Several hylek in GW2 mention that they’ve been there for hundreds of years – including, I note, the hylek in Kessex Hills.

Note that with the possible exception of those in Caledon Forest, all hylek grouns are in areas that were fogged in GW1 (including the Kessex Hills fellas, I think).

So it was us moving into their territory.

The reason why the hylek are a “new” threat to the Shining Blade in EN is because the Shining Blade are new to the area.

Off the top of my head, I don’t recall it ever being said the nightmare was always present – after all, it was years until Faolain became affected by the nightmare, and same goes for Cadeyrn – these were the first two (known) Nightmare Court members, and neither were affected by a nightmare in the Dream of Dreams.

There is, as far as I’m aware, no indication for how old either the Dream or the nightmare are.

Furthermore, nothing says the Dream of Dreams doesn’t predate sylvari or the Pale Tree – given the White Stag’s ability to be within the Dream like the Pale Tree, I would argue otherwise. Furthermore, given the White Stag’s affiliation with the DoD, I cannot see the Dream being created by the sixth dragon.

Now you’re just being silly. Yes, definition for puppet is pretty clear:

pup·pet
noun
1.
an artificial figure representing a human being or an animal, manipulated by the hand, rods, wires, etc., as on a miniature stage. Compare hand puppet, marionette.
2.
a person, group, government, etc., whose actions are prompted and controlled by another or others.
3.
a small doll.
4.
Machinery , poppethead.

None of which state a requirement of active control from the user or the puppet becomes 100% inactive.

And hey, one can argue a golem is a puppet, based on definitions 1 and 2. Artificial figure being manipulated by wires and gears; a machine.

Dustfinger.9510:

Yet they tend to require direct manipulation for all action. That’s what a puppet is. It’s what distinguishes them from classic golems and other autamotauns. Which is what you are describing.

The difference between a minion and an automaton is that automatons simply need to push an on button once created. Minions cannot be active without the necromancer proactively willing it.

It’s just that they don’t go limp once the necromancer stops paying attention.

At best, a minion would be an inbetween of a puppet and a automaton.

Of course, not all minions are like this. Some do require direct control – see Ghosts of Ascalon and the two minions Killeen creates. She proactively manages the minion’s movements completely. And similarly, there do seem to be minions which function more like a golem – like the minion created via the Golem’s Eye.

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, Konig’s definitely right here. I do not know exactly why the Harathi are placed down by Kessex honestly

I believe that in the lvl 20 story step for humans, Logan says that centaurs have recently pushed their way there.

So those in Kessex Hills are a recent development from pushing through Gendarran Fields.

Lonami.2987:

How do the centaurs as western Kryta get reinforcements, if it’s not from Maguuma?

Also, Kessex is plagued by them, with (As I already said) one of their bigger bases being next to Brisban. It doesn’t make too much sense for them not to have at least 1 camp west.

The way I see it, centaur homeland is at Woodland Cascades, and when the wwar started they started a front south, at northeastern Kryta, and then started another one west, having circled Kryta from north to west, walking from Woodland Cascades to Maguuma Wastes.

They get reinforcements via Gendarran Fields. They don’t need a camp west of Overlord’s Greatcamp because their enemy is not west of that spot.

I don’t see why they would have needed to come from the west to build the Overlord’s Greatcamp. That’s just where the Harathi general who’s pushing into Kryta in a flanking motion stationed himself. They invaded that far in towards the south from the east and dug in.

Centaurs in the Maguuma Jungle in GW1 were further north and west. Brisban Wildlands is mostly fogged areas in GW1 – it contains the southernmost edge of Sage Lands (if that), Henge of Denravi, Fort Koga, and easternmost Aurora Glade – and all that fogged area between such.

The centaurs in GW1 were in Ettin’s Back, The Falls, Tangle Root, Dry Top, Silverwood, The Wilds, and Bloodstone Fen. All of which are west or north of Brisban Wildlands.

The Harathi, Tamini, and Modniir come from north of Kryta and the northern Shiverpeaks. Harathi – the one who are closest to the Maguuma in GW2 – come from Harathi Hinterlands I believe (or at least north of there). It was believed and it is possible they’re the ones in the Maguuma in GW1, but they do not come from Brisband (it’s likely they live north of Brisban and went east around Divinity’s Reach to combine with the Tamini and Modniir, of course).

Emissary Vex.5690:

My personal theory however that ties them into Guild Wars 2…..The Pale Tree is a dragon champion. Namely a champion of Mordremoth.

Nothing new, you’re just respouting a 3 month old theory. There’s many more threads on this than those linked. I blame Anet’s poor search system on these forums, since they don’t seem to bring up results older than a month. This I believe is the oldest on this forum. It all began with false information – that a skill challenge in Zone Green of Mount Maelstrom had binary that translated to “Pale Tree” (said area is related to Inquest research on the Elder Dragons) – it in fact translates to “end transmission sequence.”

My thoughts can be seen here. I’m not going to bother repeating for a sixth or so thread on this topic.

Emissary Vex.5690:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Sigh, that gives a fairly skewed view on the matter (gonna edit it so that it’s a bit less subjective with “sylvari this sylvari that” at the end). Read through my research, please. It gives a more balanced perspective, as well as a lot more information on the subject.

Emissary Vex.5690:

I believe that it was Ventari’s influence that caused the Pale Tree to be good instead of the natural evil they were intended to be; I also believe this is the reason that so many Sylvari turn into the nightmare court; because nightmare was their original purpose.

1) Malyck disproves the last bit.

2) You do realize that the only way known to disconnect a dragon minion from their Elder Dragons’ control is to sever the mental connection, right? Ventari’s influence couldn’t do this.

3) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, however, dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

Rather, to summarize my thread into its final points, it seems that the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams – which is not unique to sylvari – is produced by Mordremoth. The Pale Tree is merely a target, not a champion.

The only bit about gods and ascension that I know of coming from NPCs – or, in fact, anything related to Nightfall other than possibly interviews – would be the Apostate saying that Abaddon had a predecessor. And even from non-Nightfall stuff, I can’t think of anything where it mentions three are not Ascended beings.

What I DO know in relation to the Six Gods and the number three, is that there’s three gods presented in the concept art with King Doric pleading to the gods to take back magic. And that, because of said concept art, people have long believed that only three gods were in Arah at the time (usually believed to be Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – given Grenth’s and Lyssa’s influence in Cantha and Vabbi, respectively).

Both Shiverpeak encounters happen next to each other, so it’s a pretty safe bet. But there’s nothing that outright states it.

Radio Isotope.3045:

Where did Jormag strike first, then second, then third, etc. Who were the mightiest Norn Champions that tried to kill Jormag but couldn’t. What gave them the idea of using that scroll in the first place.

You’re asking us for information not given.

All we pretty much know is that when Jormag entered norn territory, a multi-year blizzard began and the norn, seeing a challenge, went to challenge Jormag and failed. After an unknown amount of time, the Spirits of the Wild told Aesgir to send the norn south – Bear, Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard guided them south, while Owl, Eagle, Wolverine, and Ox battled Jormag. Sometime between all this, Aesgir – supposedly with the help of the jotun scroll, but certainly with the aid of the Spirits of the Wild – fought Jormag and knocked out a tooth and carried said tooth south.

During the flight south, Jormag and Owl battled in the skies over the norn themselves – and to keep Jormag off of the norn, Owl dived into Jormag’s mouth and attacked him from inside, before being killed utterly.

Bear and co. led the norn to a valley in the central Shiverpeak Mountains where Aesgir established Hoelbrak, placing the tooth in the Great Lodge. He also had a friend, Hrothbier, to destroy iceberg that was threatening to crush Hoelbrak during its early years – said iceberg being chipped away became Lake Mourn.

That’s the basics of it.

We don’t know names of norn who fell to Jormag during that time, we don’t know where or how he first struck (just that the norn knew he was coming south and there was a long blizzard – and that he shattered the Far Shiverpeaks when he woke up), nor do we know anything about the scroll or its purpose or intention other than “Aesgir might have had it, it’s jotun, and it might contain Elder Dragon information.”

You pretty much already have all links except for random NPC dialogues – in which case, go through Hoelbrak, Wayfarer Foothills, and Snowden Drifts and find the skaalds – they’ll tell you whatever may be missing. Or kodan in Frostgorge Sound, though they mostly talk about their personal flight south.

Durzlla.6295:

Oh it didn’t say anything about any specific god other than abbadon, she just said something around the lines of Abbadon, like several others, ascended to god hood and wasn’t placed there naturally.

Can you find where such is said? Only place in Nightfall I ever recall Lyssa’s Muse (her avatar) saying anything to players is the Gate of Madness cinematic which says nothing of the like.

Durzlla.6295:

I agree fully with this, even Grenth (who we ALL know was once human by now) transcends -some- human pettiness where as balthazar is like “lawlz why would i do that?”

@Konig, btw that asura refers to Balthazar as the god of MASS murder, not just murder, geez get it right xD.

Grenth was half-god – never said to be human, or more acurately, half-human. We don’t know who his father was even if it’s heavily implied to be Malchor.

Also: Gixx: “So we must discover the unseen, hm? I believe the Priory has an artifact that will aid us: an idol of Balthazar, the human god of war, murder, etcetera etcetera.”

That’s the line I was going off of – I see now he later says mass murder, but here he just says murder.

The seer met in Ring of Fire mission was the same one as the one seen in the Shiverpeak Mountains – it outright tells us that it met us in the Shiverpeaks there – and presumably the same as seen in Abaddon’s Mouth and Hell’s Precipice (if it followed players to the ring of fire islands, why not all the way through?).

There are, at most, four seers (Shiverpeaks/RoF mish; Abaddon’s Mouth mish; Hell’s Precipice mish; WiK), but more likely to be only one or two (Proph; WiK).

Arah explorable delves into the origins of the magic gifted by Abaddon.

During the last Elder Dragon rise, the seers took all *non*corrupted magic in the world and put it into the original Bloodstone – meaning any magic that existed in the world at the time which wasn’t corrupted by Elder Dragons was stored into the big stone.

When the Six Gods settled on the world, they found the Bloodstone and took it to Arah. In 1 BE, Abaddon tampered with it to unleash the magic into the world. Shortly thereafter, the Six Gods tampered with it again to limit the magic and shattered the Bloodstone into five bloodstones (the game capitalizes the word when referencing the original, but not the five shattered ones). At one of these two intervals, Zhaitan was tapped to increase the bloodstones’ power – to what extent is unknown.

Despite tapping into Zhaitan, they did not know of the Elder Dragon.

Randall Greyston: “Fantastic! The human gods not only sundered the seer’s bloodstone here-they increased its power.”
Randall Greyston: “They pulled the energies of Zhaitan himself, even though they did not know of the sleeping Elder Dragon.”
Randall Greyston: “They only knew that this was a place of great magical power, and built their godly city here.”

So Abaddon couldn’t have been punished for putting beings in danger when the dragons awoke, since the Six Gods – by all known indication – had no knowledge of the Elder Dragons (or at least, of Zhaitan, but if they knew of other ED, they would probably investigate and discover Zhaitan).

And it’s more than just “human magic” but all non-Elder Dragon magic.

And Thruln the Lost is a very unreliable source. All other indications tell us that the jotun would never interact with gods (too prideful) and that it was the seers which took magic from the jotun (when creating the Bloodstone).

You’re thinking puppets animated by magic would act the same as puppets animated by standard non-magical strings.

In which case, they don’t (necessarily) act the same. It varies by the type and purpose of the magic used, and in this case they don’t act the same.

Dustfinger.9510:

This implies a more direct relationship between the will of the necromancer and the “will/goal” of the creation. But any goal the creation has after the death of the necromancer points to it being more than just a puppet. Even the classic idea of a mindless/soul-less golem fulfilling it’s duty centuries after it’s creators death is still more than a puppet.

Except that it doesn’t have a goal. A goal implies independent thought – it would merely be acting on the last will of the necromancer and/or the purpose of its creation: to kill enemies. This is the necromancer’s “programming” so to speak into the minion. But without the necromancer to differentiate what’s ally and what’s foe, the minion can’t tell.

And btw, there are more puppets are than just marionettes.

Dustfinger.9510:

An abusive imaginary friend is an extreme event on the same level as a golemancer creating an automoton with a remote off-switch and the golemancer believing that if he pushed it it wouldn’t work so he just refuses to push it. […] In wich case they don’t actually lose controle, they just think they have. And they are really letting an autonomous creation run it’s course.

Yes, that situation would be comparitive, though that wasn’t meant as an example of the necromancer losing control.

I was bringing two scenarios into play: one where the necromancer literally loses control, and the other where the necromancer just thinks he or she lost control.

And I wouldn’t say it’s that extreme. Psychological issues are probably more common than not in a world like Tyria where there are practically threats around every corner and tree. It’s a surprise so many people live, tbh, especially not paranoid like hell.

You remember wrong. The scholar you refer to is Scholar Trueclaw and what she says is “It’s accepted that there were five sentient races who fought the Elder Dragons the first time and survived.” and “I found out that there were five sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons the first time around… and survived to tell about it.”

Not once does she say the word “defeat” – only survived. The other scholars don’t talk about the races, but other aspects of the ED.

The norn storyline for “Defeat our Ancient Foes” only repeats what was told to us in the jotun blog post, transcribed onto the GW2W here. Furthermore, what he’s more wrong about his human history – specifically the relation between humans and gods. There is that bit about the Six Gods’ relation to the jotun which is dubious, but not outright false (yet) even if unlikely. Though there’s no (other) indications that the Six Gods gave and took magic from any specific race, thus any specific reason of disliking or fearing jotun would be wrong. Given what we know, it’s likely that Thruln the Lost’s dialogue on that is actually about when the seers created the Bloodstone (something else learned from Arah explorable – the gods only found the original bloodstone and tampered with it to gift magic).

And we’re never told how long the seer lasted against the mursaat, actually. And infusion was developed late into the war – when they’ve already had significant losses.

If by “how” you mean “they get smarter when closer together” then, sure, you’re right.

Otherwise, I’ve never once seen an asura say “they get smarter because they talk fast.” It’s all about figuring out why they get smarter when together, the limits, and how they could duplicate it for the asura.

And I’ve gone though multiple events and hearts where they talk about skritt intelligence and experimenting on that principle.

From beginning of personal story to Wintersday, I’d say a few weeks short of a year. But this is rather speculative still.

Durzlla.6295:

I’m throwing my 2 cents in real quick, Anet devs have said pre launch he is composed of dead dragons, and the whole “maybe all the dragons are made up of their element” theory is quite possible.

In the Edge of Destiny book (which is cannon) Caithe picks up drops of crystal blood from their fight with Kralk, which would imply he was bleeding crystal, this could explain why despite being defeated in the past by MUCH stronger races than now that they were still capable of returning.

I mean for kittens sake, Mursaat were believed to be gods and were only eliminated due to the Titans, Seers were just as strong as Mursaat (well weaker but close) Jotun were so strong that the human gods feared they might be outmatched so the sent them back to the Stone Age, and then the Dwarves and Forgotten were nothing to scoff at either.

I’d be surprised if Zhaitan is truly dead, I mean kitten… He ate through his minions and only ate magic!

They said the concept art for Zhaitan had him comprised of dragons. The word “dead” is never used. And it was about concept art.

Also, you’re wrong on the elder races’ cases: the strength of the seers was never said – they were wiped out by the mursaat, in fact. That bit on the jotun comes from Thruln the Lost whom is wrong on quite a few accounts, and by every other source in the Guild Wars series, is wrong on that account too – in that they took magic away from them specifically.

And the Elder Dragons eating magic is precisely why those elder races lost so hard to the Elder Dragons – because those races were all about magic back then. They were using what Elder Dragons eat against them.

Durzlla.6295:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

The old races did not defeat the dragons, the Mursaat fled Tyria and the other races were hidden by Glint. We don’t know who injured Kralk and made him bleed.

Says who? Because the Priory Scholars say different, and if the Mursaat fled, why did they come back?

I don’t know what Priory scholars you talked to, but none say that they defeated the Elder Dragons – just that they survived. And those in Arah explorable elaborate on that, telling us that they survived because Glint hide them after the forgotten freed her from Kralkatorrik’s control, and that the mursaat fled the world after betraying the other races.

The only thing that comes to mind that the above link doesn’t talk about would be the possibility that Aesgir had an ancient jotun scroll with information on the Elder Dragons when he went south. (from this gal )

Halloween, iirc, occurs in the middle of Fall. Wintersday occurs during the Spring Solstice (Tyrian New Year is effectively the same as our March 20th). So that would be roughly 1/3 of the year between them.

Between Zhaitan’s defeat and the karka event is a harder question. You can bet that Zhaitan fell before Thorn’s return, and the karka arrived after Thorn – it’s unlikely to be another case, imo.

The personal story, to me, seems to take place in spring/summer for the most part – timewise, we know that from the step “Forging the Pact” to the step “The Source of Orr” (completing that step, that is) is called a “few weeks.”

Dustfinger.9510:

Losing controle and rampaging means they would be a bit more than flesh puppets.

Not really – minions are, by effect, mindless killing machines. They’re created by the necromancer’s own energy, tethered merely by magic, and once the necromancer is no longer there to control them (e.g., they die), they go killing anything they see.

Mind you, this is in GW1. In GW2, minions continue to fight only your enemies in GW2, so maybe this flaw was overcome in the 250 years.

Dustfinger.9510:

Though, I agree, the training a necromancer would go through should eliminate any fear of their own creation since they know how it works, how to controle it and how to take back the power that gives it life.

Typically, yes. And in GW1, it shows those who cannot control their creations are, normally, killed (rather than enslaved). But what if the necromancer went through a traumatic experience? Say, s/he was nearly killed by a swarm of risen, and/or lost his/her best friend to them? That may change things – shake up the necromancer to the point where they lose control of the minions they make, through psychological trauma.

So it’s a possibility – a necromancer who has natural talent in necromancy thus easily able to control minions can, through psychological dillusion, make it so that he or she is “enslaved” to the minions. This wouldn’t be actuality, but rather due to an insecurity on the necromancer’s psyche which allows it.

The enslavement to minions would be purely imaginative (they couldn’t actually control the necromancer, but the necromancer would believe they can), but it’s still very real to the necromancer.

It’s very little to the concept of an abusive imaginary friend.

Risen don’t rise a second time. What’s meant by the Blue Orb preventing a “rise again” is when the corpses become risen.

Though, yes, it may be possible to use the Blue Orb to prevent Zhaitan’s return if he can rise himself – though I can’t think of anything possible of doing such proactively.

@Gaudrath: “Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it must be done. So you proved nothing.” Same can be said to you about your “mass producing lasers” concept.

And she also explains why she would not make another Caladbolg – because it was lost when Riannoc died. Though this is before its fate (that Waine stole it) was discovered and it was retrieved. With the reason why she wouldn’t make another (that it went missing and could bring harm) gone, and if it proved to be instrumental in fighting Elder Dragons, she could (note the fact that I never used an absolute in what the Pale Tree would do in my previous post) decide to make more – even moreso if Caladbolg becomes unusable due to the fight with Zhaitan.

Point is: Caladbolg is no more unique than the laser used to fight Zhaitan (which was destroyed).

The Hall of Heroes does hold a connection to the gods – it has statues of the gods within it. It also holds similar structure to the Hall of Ascension in Augury Rock in the Crystal Desert.

However, I cannot see it looking like Orr simply because they look vastly different between Orrian ruins and the Hall of Heroes.

Anyways, the only pre-Zhaitan concept art of Orr there is are those three already linked, which are from Prophecies.

The Harathi has plenty of centaur ladies. Half of their population in-game appear to be such. Though I don’t recall any Tamini or Modniir females at the moment, I’m sure they still exist. But they come from the north (northern Maguuma Jungle, aka Maguuma Wastes, northern Shiverpeak Mountains, and seemingly the southern Woodland Cascades).

Son of Elias.5420:

Yeah, that’s a little creepy. Where do you see that line?

Random thought: Is it possible the gods aren’t silent, but are cut off by something – that they’re trying to communicate, but can’t? Either by the Elder Dragons or something else?

Tormented Souls in the Realm of Torment post-Nightfall (linked in previous post).

And yes, it’s possible the Elder Dragons are cutting them off – since they devour magic, they could be devouring the magic used for communication. Also take note that the Seventh Reaper met in the personal story says he’s too weak to kill a simple (okay, not that simple I guess) risen. But 250 years ago he and six others of supposedly equal strength re-imprisoned Dhuum multiple times.

I also suspect that Dhuum is free and wrecking havoc for the Six Gods (I doubt he’d contain his revenge to just Grenth, given how the others let Grenth into their little circle of gods, and he’s allied with Menzies who wants Balthazar’s power).

Gaudrath.6725:

I don’t. However, I do now for sure that once you make one machine you can make a ton of copies. Because it is a machine. It has a blueprint, it has resource requirements, and that’s it.

Mystical artifacts are mystical. They are unique. They are all about a special set of circumstances, alignment of stars, fate, what have you. You can’t mass produce Excaliburs, even though obviously someone had to make the one.

And Pale Tree herself says she will never make another Caladbolg. So there’s that.

And finally, mystical artifacts are powerful symbols. Huge laser cannons are not.

You make one fatal flaw in your argument:

Caladbolg was a piece of bark from the Pale Tree.

The Pale Tree has a lot of bark. And can grow more.

It’s not some religiously holy one-of-a-kind-can-never-be-reproduced relic (though Buddhakeks’ point remains nonetheless). The only reason why there’s one Caladbolg is because the Pale Tree chooses not to make more – she outright states that she can during the sylvari storyline in fact! And if she saw it destroy an Elder Dragon. especially at the cost of Caladbolg (to make it truly unique), I think she’d be inclined to make a couple more.

And bam, you got an assembly line of Caladbolgs.

There, I just proved that your “unique” mystical artifact is as unique as the skin flakes on your body (because in comparison, that’s what Caladbolg is – a skin flake from the Pale Tree’s body).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Am I the only one not surprised by that? Jeff Grubb once even talked about how the Asura tried to commit genocide on the Skritt. The Asura see the Skritt at best as annoying pests that can be experimented on, at worst as something that has to be eradicated.

That was the old opinion of asura.

Look around in GW2, and see how many asura think that. No, just about every asura nowadays views them as two things:

1) Subjects of study, to figure out why they become smarter in groups (apparently asura aren’t smart enough to understand the concept of “very fast talking”).
2) Easy cheap labor (aka the Tyrian Mexicans – no offense intended to anyone)

Bard.7215:

Horns or tiny head wings, they look like they’re a part of her, I guess my point was that deities having extra appendages doesn’t necessarily draw a line between ascended gods and gods that have always been(Assuming the concept is even part of the equation).

Balthazar lacks such “extra appendages” – as does Dhuum, Lyssa (both Lyss and Ilya), and the statue of Abaddon found in the temple (along with matching concept art).

Kormir we have seen as a god – here (note: although the image title is “Avatar of Kormir” the god Kormir also takes this form, which is exactly the same as human Kormir except golden) – and as you can see, she has a feather-designed helm.

Bard.7215:

Point being, benevolencey does not dictate power or status.

I don’t think Dwayna is ever said to be the leader because she’s benevolent. She’s just said to be the leader of the gods (reasons unmentioned), and no nothing requires her to have always been the leader of the gods.

Standard undead would probably be an even better analogy.

Or Magonites – because what happened to Margonites is the same as what happened to dwarves, basically.

Bard.7215:

This is because some of his concept art shows him wearing a multi-eyed metallic mask, but still having a normal human face(as apparent of his exposed mouth and chin. Of course concept art means jack

Except when that’s how his statue in GW2 looks. Though the concept art doesn’t show a normal mouth under the mask iirc.

Bard.7215:

Kormir has been depicted as having horns in her current sculpted incarnation(though whether or not it’s a head piece remains unseen) which she didn’t have prior.

Wait, what? I don’t know of any horns in any depiction of her. There’s the helm decorated with wings that she wore as a human in the statue from GW1 (and the Divinity’s Reach banners, and the GW2’s version of the GW1 statue of course), but the new statue of her doesn’t have horns from what I’ve seen.

Edit: Ohhh, I think I see what you mean. The GW2 statue’s concept art shows what can be mistaken for horns, but they look feathered. Probably meant to be the helm she had, but covered by long straight hair (rather than her GW1 afro).

draxynnic.3719:

There is a line that was dropped in a pre-release issue – namely, that the gods predate humanity, “but not by much”. The response was annoyingly vague, though – obviously the entire pantheon doesn’t predate humanity since Grenth and Kormir ascended from Tyria.

The line, to me, always came off as “the pantheon as a group predates humans on Tyria” – which would be true, especially given the Orrian History Scrolls which says Dwayna brought humanity shortly after she arrived on Tyria.

Some yes, all… maybe.

Abaddon’s known to have had a predecessor and the statue of him in Orr looks human and looks like most concept art of Abaddon from Nightfall (which I believe is meant to be before his defeat prior to the Exodus – side note: the gw.dat says that he recreated a body for him out of the Realm of Torment during the course of Nightfall, explaining his both incomplete (head and hands only) and rather twisted-looking body). Though there’s early Nightfall lore that was released to the Asian audience (and not western audience) which says Abaddon had wings pre-fall so he might not be human.

Dwayna and Melandru are the only gods I’d say might not have been humans – if they even have predecessors. Reason being: both are depicted with wings (though Melandru only once – Grenth, too, is depicted with wings once), and while Dwayna’s the leader of the gods, Melandru’s the eldest. And as we all know: humans don’t have wings. But Balthazar, Lyssa and Dhuum are all fairly human-appearing (except Dhuum being half of a skeleton, that is). Certainly wouldn’t be surprised if those three/four were all once human.

Lich Form seems to be more akin to GW1’s elite skill “Aura of the Lich” – rather than becoming a lich, you’re taking on aspects of a lich.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

There is also Zoldark, who I think is said to be a lich, but not all the rules of the other liches seem to apply to him.

You refer to the fact that we seemingly kill him?

Who’s to say he – like the Hunter does – didn’t just fake it? The Hunter, for those who don’t know, is a Shiro’ken made by Shiro Tagachi in the Realm of Torment and given magic by Khilbron so that he cannot be killed – effectively, he’s a construct that acts like a lich. We also know of two other (claimed) liches: Mazdak the Accursed (who was killed by Caladbolg, which seems to be an anti-risen/undead/lich weapon) and an unnamed “Risen Lich” seen in Arah story.

As for personality and controlling other undead – even weak undead may retain their personality. It seems to be more about how the undead is made for personality. It’s my theory that those with personality hold a soul in the body while those without are soulless (like necromancer minions). Undead appear to naturally flock to stronger undead as well (based on the pockets of what seem to be Orrian undead remnants in Eye of the North, as well as what happened to Joko’s armies after his defeat by Turai), so just being more powerful automatically grants you power over weaker undead.

Regarding “Their souls just wander back into their bodies after being slain.” – this isn’t necessarily true. For the case of The Hunter and Joko, no indication is made of their soul ever leaving their body. They just get beaten up, perhaps even knocked unconscious, but never seem to actually ‘die.’

And Khilbron’s soul was ripped out by the soul batteries, not the bloodstone – the soul batteries used the bloodstone as a channel for transfering the soul, it seems, but they themselves are what allows souls to be captured (and are where the souls are held).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I personally have the theory that Khilbron tapped into Zhaitans magic while using his cataclysmic spell, therefore comming back in his rather draconic lich form (I’m not saying he was a Risen though, he shows no signs of that).

Your theory for Khilbron would require for him to be a Risen, though. And we know he wasn’t devoted to Zhaitan so that’s definitely not the case.

Lechtrixx.1053:

A Lich is by profession is a powerful necromancer (either dead or alive, but for all practical purposes is their self a transformed “undead”) who can summon the dead and control them to act on its behalf.

In the GW universe, as well as many fantasy stories, a lich is a powerful necromantic undead. In non-GW stories, they tend to have phylacteries which hold their souls – their undead bodies merely being a medium to act in the world, and so long as said phylactery is around, they cannot be killed.

But GW liches are OP in that they don’t have phylacteries. At least, we don’t know of any.

Advent.6193:

I thought Palawa was a Mummy, not a Lich? Pardon me, if I happen to be wrong.

Technically both. Mechanically speaking in GW1 he’d be the mummy creature type – and perhaps he was mummified when killed, though there’s no indications of that. A lich isn’t synonymous with a kind of undead – e.g., skeleton, zombie, mummy – but rather is more of a title to an undead given based on their abilities.

Bard.7215:

Do those clocked wraith like undead that hover around and are generally elementalists, count as liches?

One is called a lich, but generally those seem to be souls – hence their name “wraith.”

TheNextGuy.4521:

Probably one of my favorite “lesser races” as they call it. But i like playing humans and humans can’t help them.

Why can asura help grawl and quaggan. but not skritt which they deal with more? Why can norn help hylek? Why do hylek get four playable races able to help them but ogres get two?

The line up overall doesn’t make much sense, imo.

But this isn’t a case of lore.

@Sirius: Grawl are closer to humans (Ebonhawke) than asura, which have them as a racial sympathy – and human and sylvari sympathies are the same, whereas there’s two differences between those two and asura, despite the closeness between asura and sylvari compared to sylvari and human.

IMO, it’d make more sense as:

Charr: skritt, grawl, ogres (aka no change)
Norn: ogres, grawl, quaggan
Human: grawl, skritt, hylek
Sylvari: hylek, quaggan, ogres (yes, ogres don’t make much sense, but it’s the odd-man out to keep human and charr from being the same)
Asura: skritt, hylek, quaggan

Well, if you want to get technical, by the time the Door of Komalie’s opened they’re mostly wiped out by the players

“With the Mursaat in shambles, there is no one left to stop the Lich but me.”

But this journal of the player characters also say the mursaat were trying to protect the world (lol).

The titans were only on “clean-up” duty.

marnick.4305:

There are only 5 confirmed dragons and a 6th that’s only once mentioned as dead.

Erm… no where is it ever said that the sixth Elder Dragon is dead – unless you’re talking about Zhaitan being dead.

Lechtrixx.1053:

Sub-note: Abbadon was the god of secrets. (“secrets” is really a very vague/broad term where when Kormir makes that final decision to become a god, she becomes the god of truth .. yet imbued with all the knowlege of secrets).

Well… Abaddon is considered the “Keeper of Secrets” so that’s not very vague (and “secrets” aka hidden knowledge is not very much more vague or general than “life” – in fact, compared to most gods, it’s surprisingly specific) and Kormir is originally called the goddess of secrets, truth, and knowledge, but most generally knowledge.

One case of secrets: Kormir, Goddess of Secrets!

And overtime Kormir expanded into order and spirit, and supposedly judgment (of living – Grenth, the god of judgment for Orrians, still presumably judges the dead).

Side note: I just found a very grim line regarding Kormir’s godhood: “Kormir whispers beneath the world, through the quiet chambers and the dark corridors of reality. Can you hear her?”

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Well the Flameseeker prophecy was not about the Mursaat and how to kill them, it was merely a part of it, because they opposed Abaddon and his plans. He had to get rid of them. The core of Flameseeker prophecy is about the opening of the door of Komalie and the subsequent release of the titans. This is what fullfills the prophecy.

You make it sound like the Prophecies was all Abaddon’s plot. The truth is that the mursaat were just trying to save their hides (well, okay, they might have known that the titans were a threat to all Tyria like the common desire of players is, but given Arah lore, that’s increasingly unlikely given that they’ve kitten the rest of the world to save their own hides before) – they knew about the Prophecies and thus killed any potential Chosen off, and used said Chosen to keep the Door of Komalie sealed.

Whether they knew what was behind it is unknown, just as it is unknown whether they even knew about Abaddon – keep in mind, they left the world long before the Six Gods arrived, and returned as the Unseen Ones (meaning they held no interaction with known history until Saul), so they easily could have returned with absolutely no knowledge of a sixth god.

Though it’s a very kitten good chance Abaddon knew of them, though not necessarily knew of the Prophecies or what blocked off the Door of Komalie. We do know that the forgotten within the Realm of Torment and, supposedly, the Fury didn’t know what was on the other side of the Door of Komalie:

“The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich…another powerful minion of Abaddon…opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.”

BuddhaKeks.4857:

He no problem. I’m trying to be a hell of a lot more to be correct, when I’m posting on forums, since I’m always afraid that Konig’s sarcophagus pops open, because his misconception-sense is tingling and he strikes down to correct me. xD (No offense, Konig, I have nothing against being corrected if I’m wrong^^)

rofl

This made me smile. In the “it’s a little insulting but still kitten funny” kind of way.

Dustfinger.9510:

I would guess they are in the mists. maybe hiding from the Dragons, maybe preparing for the battle. Maybe both, depending on who it is.

Priestess Rhie disproves your notion. Supposedly.

In one of the two story steps she’s in, forget which one, you can ask her where the gods went, she says “we don’t know, not into the Mists at least.” (or something of the like)

They were, supposedly, in the Mists until connection got cut off.

Ah, mention of mushrooms reminded me – there’s also some Shrinkcaps in Harathi Hinterlands which can be made into a potion to, obviously, shrink oneself.

There’s also the Terebinth tree in Brisban – a special tree who’s fruits grow year long with rejuvenating properties.

Martacus.4085:

The seem too…human now, like Asgardians or Olympians: as fickle as they are powerful.

You must not have paid much attention, because they were always like this. They make mistakes, they kitten kitten up (hello Abaddon!), they have anger issues (Balth losing his temper when losing a board game to a mortal) and bitter rivalries of no apparent reasonings (Grenth vs Lyssa, Grenth vs Dwayna).

They’ve always seemed like powerful humans ever since Factions, if not Prophecies as well, and definitely since Nightfall.

Anyways, given how the scrolls mention Balthazar’s actions – that he thought they would be quickly defeated and it’s not the first time he’s made a mistake, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was openly okay with making peace against an enemy you can’t defeat simply because there are still more battles and wars to be one – and it wouldn’t be dishonorable. Though he might be annoyed by a long lasting peace – but hell, he loses his temper over losing a boardgame to a mortal.

Of all gods, tbh, looking deep into it, Balthazar and Grenth feel like spoiled brats to me (Balthazar’s anger issues over losing simple games, and Grenth seemingly appeasing to his mommy in order to get into the godhood circle just to have a kitten match on a yearly basis).

But then again, he’s also called the god of murder by a certain asura, though that’s not saying much in itself, given both who the asura is and that its an asura.

There’s a few hearts and events which name certain poisonous or healing plants (or just plants in general). There’s one or two in Brisband Wildlands (1 or 2 events and a heart), a heart in Fields of Ruin as well as an event iirc, a heart in Fireheart Rise, and probably more. I can’t think of names off the top of my head though.

There’s two personal storylines which deal with herb remedies too – human street rat and sylvari All Things Have a Right to Grow.

Lesse, from what I can find via wiki:

• rhizome powder – a powerful poison
• Zalisco – a flower which is naturally very poisonous except to hylek, and can be used as an acidic solvent against undead or in a powerful poisonous potion to create the “Eye of the Sun” effect.
• Baneberry – poisonous, you guessed it, berries.
• Prickleberry – don’t recall if they’re poisonous or what, but they prick…

(side note: Anet’s not very imaginative with berry names, are hey?)

Eternal Alchemy and the Dream of Dreams are not entities…

The Six Gods are only on par to Spirits of the Wild, Melaggan (who may be Melandru), and Koda. And they’re put more or less above or equal to the Spirits of the Wild.

There’s two things I generally disliked:

1) Some story arcs, especially the lvl 1-10, 10-20, and 40-48 ones (race-specific and racial sympathy storylines) felt far too short, and would have preferred twice as many steps in them, and more exposition in the racial sympathies (you’re just told to go somewhere dealing with a race, no foreknowledge on what the threat is, and the reasoning presented for chosing the race (e.g., grawl psychology) is never once brought up in some of the storylines). They were a good means of having a nice storyline that’d be more unique, squandered. The other story splits didn’t seem that bad, since they tied in more with other plots, but the first 20 levels worth felt too disconnected and irrelevant, with only some NPCs appearing later if you chose properly later on.

2) Story mode dungeons – yeah, not personal story, but still, they felt to… impersonal. I know they’re a “side plot” but it’s a plot where you only see pieces of it. I’d have much rather preferred that Destiny’s Edge comes and goes into your own personal story, rather than just leaves at lvl 30. As a charr, I felt no need to help Logan at Caudecus’ Manor or help Zojja at Sorrow’s Embrace. Even if it meant pulling the guild together – and in Arah, even if I didn’t help pull DE together, they were all there – unlike what ArenaNet said.

And yes, probably wrong forum.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

We don’t even know if the weapon work on all EDs. We know they use different means of corruption, which in turn could mean they use different magic and are weak to different things. You have to keep in mind that the weapons used by the Pact were mostly tested on Risen, only in Frostgorge Sound we see them used against Jormag’s Claw. However we don’t know if the weapons used there, are actually like the ones used vs Zhaitan, or if they are more like regular weapons.

Precisely – even Caladbolg may be 100% useless against icebrood and branded – as well as Trahearne’s cleansing ritual. The laser I can easily see being simply reflected by Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

That blue orb may only be anti-Risen, same with just about everything the Pact use in Orr.

And the weapons used on the Claw of Jormag are charr engineered explosives through and through.

You made it sound like “they’re capable of doing it, but they don’t have to”

Minor correction to mercury: we don’t know where Kralkatorrik built the center of his domain. He fled from that site when nearly killed by Destiny’s Edge and didn’t create more Dragonbrand as he did so, so we don’t know where he left to, or where he is, or what he’s been doing these last five years.

But everything else is pretty much true: the portals that led “straight” to the Hall of Heroes are lost to us, and it may be that the means to get there from the Mists is left undiscovered still.

Kami.7369:

If you run Path 2 of Arah on Explorer, you find out that the remaining Mursaat entered another dimension when the dragons awoke. They took their ball and went home, as it were. What if that home is the Fractals, and we caught them in the act of trying to alter history (Uncatagorized and Ascalon) or being evil (Cliffside, Grawl, Underwater). Do you think that Fractals may lead to us discovering where the Mursaat went and fighting them again?

You got a fact wrong.

They fled from home not fled to home. They left the world – their homeland – of Tyria in order to flee the Elder Dragons. Naturally, this means they went into the Mists.

The Mists are, effectively, the building blocks of existence. Those fractals are natural occurrences. The Mists are also, effectively, the multiverse itself – surrounding all things and being the origin of all things.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

I think they’re dead
At the end of GW1, (someone correct me if I’m way off), there’s only one mursaat still known, ‘Lazarus the Dire’. It’s true they could reproduce asexually or something, but imo they’re just hiding right now, waiting for the moment to strike instead of trying to rule the world with dragons about.

What you’re wrong on is their reproduction – which we know nothing about. Or their genders.

Excelliate.7914:

Anyway, the one Mursaat we presume to be alive could be hiding in the mists, but my money’s on Lazarus controlling the remaining white mantle.

I think that’s where everyone’s money is on. I’m expecting him to be chilling out either in Fort Vandal, or at another bandit/White Mantle fort near the bloodstone in the Maguuma Jungle.

Or in the Wizard’s Tower.

I’d hardly call that a kick in the teeth. It’s a good portion of land, while being easily accessible to all humans thanks to the asura gate in Ebonhawke, and doesn’t require crossing the dragonbrand to get to. I mean, what would really be a kick in the teeth would be if the charr said “if you can get rid of the Ghosts, Ascalon City is yours again” or if they said “you can have what’s become the Dragonbrand once Kralkatorrik’s dealt with.”

At least this way, they have an obvious boundary from the charr – dragonbrand on one end, mountains on the other. And the only threat they have will be ogres, which are also still a threat to charr, and are trying to move into that territory already (and have been since the peace talks began).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

A sylvari weapon used to end Zhaitan? You really want to make the plants even more Mary-Sue-ish than they already are? Besides Caladbolg is a magical weapon and magic is useless against an ED. The megalaser only worked because it was technology and specifically modified to hurt Zhaitan. Please pay attention to the story.

Weeeeelllll….

To be fair, Gaudrath has a point with utilizing Caladbolg.

In the sylvari lvl 28 storyline, it is the only weapon able to kill a lich, Mazdak the Accursed (which themselves, as seen via Joko and Khilbron, can only be killed via special means like having their soul ripped out of their body via soul batteries). In The Source of Orr the Soveriegn Eye of Zhaitan denotes how the sword stings against him, showing that Caladbolg is strong against the Risen (if not just simply undead).

The issue comes in that Caladbolg is never seen after it is used in the successful ritual to cleanse Orr. It very well may require to remain in The Artesian Waters to continue cleansing Orr.

Also, there is a second type of magical artifact that is anti-corruption: Forgotten magic. No, not magic that’s been forgotten, but magic of the race known as “forgotten.” In Arah explorable, the forgotten path uncovers magical artifacts from the forgotten which have resisted all corruption, and they developed/discovered a powerful spell to remove Kralkatorrik’s mental corruption on Glint.

Gaudrath.6725:

Plus, the megalaser isn’t technology, it is technomancy. Asura tech is part magic, part technology. Charr tech is pure technology, but is still in the steam/gunpowder age. If you want to stick to “magic only makes them stronger”, then that megalaser should have been a real treat for Zhaitan. But of course, they “modified it”.

Stydracos.2460:

@BuddhaKeks – The MEGA-LIT cannon is stated to be a mist-cooled tripartate thautmatium energy weapon. Thats technobabble for ‘magic’ laser… so using the ‘right’ magic seems to work against the elder dragons.

Not 100% accurate (more inaccurate on Gaudrath’s part).

Firstly, Pact magic seems to be backed by that Blue Orb, which creates an “anti-Risen-making area of effect” around it (you know those thorny vines with blue energy going through it? The generators in Fort Trinity surround where the Blue Orb is placed, and they’re made by mixing asuran and sylvari magic, developed by the Durmand Priory, and repels risen (though not fully)). Pact technology is a combination of magic and technology, true, though it’s more technology than magic – the original laser would be magitech with more “magi” than “tech” but the Pact version is more “tech” than “magi” and the magi part is backed by anti-risen ancient magic.

Expect similar stuff but backed by the forgotten’s magic in the future.

I would also like to note that there’s HEAVY implications that the Blue Orb is tied to the deep sea dragon (Sayeh mentions that there are legends about it known only to those from the ocean depths, and that it “comes with its own dangers” though the dangers are never elaborated – I’m expecting to see some Pact soldiers becoming partially liquified praising <insert DSD’s name here> randomly), so the Pact is basically using Elder Dragon magic to counteract Elder Dragon magic (just like the Inquest, which the megalaser’s modifications was mostly based off of!).

Gaudrath.6725:

As opposed to Asura who have teleportation, golem armies and huge, elder dragon melting superlasers? Yeah, I totally see why we need other races here.

The asura can still be corrupted, as can their magitech (that one megalaser used against Zhaitan was special, and it was destroyed – and no, they don’t come off of assembly lines… not yet, at least), which includes their golems. And their teleportation only works if you have a waypoint/asura gate at the destination – the synergetics storyline’s no-gate teleportation was destroyed and discontinued, sadly.

The asura lack the brute strength seen in norn and charr, or the non-magical reliance of the charr and humans’ technology, or the anti-dragonness of the sylvari.

Gaudrath.6725:

Caladbolg is, like Zhaitan, unique.
Superlaser is something you get from an assembly line.

You know, under that argument, the Pale Tree has a lot of bark she can turn into swords. That’s an assembly line potential if I ever know of one.

Though she said she’d never make a weapon herself ever again.

You know, I never considered that being what the Owl Havroun felt – I never really got a thought to what it may be. But if so, I’d say that sensation of hope being Owl’s hope that the norn got away as that creeping coldness engulfs her as she’s swallowed by Jormag (the “maw of oblivion”).

With such a concept in mind, the other two may be what the last known Ox and Wolverine Havrouns felt – Ox’s would signify to me perhaps fleeing into the Mists with its job done (or just out of fear of being devoured too), and Wolverine’s… perhaps also means that Spirit’s dead (that was always my thought in the matter at least), or Wolverine’s feeling over Owl’s death – both plausible under such a concept.